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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:06 pm 
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On Bloodletters

As things stand, the army has three Core units, Plaguebearers, Horrors and Daemonettes. The fourth option, Bloodletters, are conspicuous by their absence. Why is this? Firstly because getting a fully viable combat block from Core in the form of Plaguebearers is too good to miss. Secondly because I had the Daemonettes already painted from my Cult of Slaanesh. Thirdly because a Core Wizard in the form of Horrors, was again rather attractive.

So why are Bloodletters disliked? Firstly, at 14pts each, they're the most expensive option. More importantly though, they don't do anything especially well. They're S4 but in a world of 1+ Armour Saves and T6 Monsters, that's nothing special. Daemons of Khorne are +1S on the charge but for M5 Infantry that can be hard to get. They are nowhere near as durable as Plaguebearers (with their -1, T4 and Regen) and hardly better offensively. Crucially, they are I4. This isn't awful but when you consider the amount of I5+ out there it bodes ill.

Even that doesn't get to the bottom of things though. Heralds of Khorne are decent offensively, with WS 7 and S5. But with pretty much only T4 and the 5+ Ward for defence they die quickly. A HoK might get lucky and roll a defensive Gift but probably not. Ideally he wants either of the Frenzy or Hatred Loci but at 60pts and 75pts respectively, they are damn expensive on such a fragile model.

Positives

Attempts to make them work have tended to revolve around a big unit in Horde. This has the numbers to absorb losses and hit back, while offering some protection to a Herald on the end of the line. MSU sounds promising if they get the charge vs anything less than I5 but that's a big if. So what might they have to offer my army?

Firstly, I don't have the models to build a big unit so I'm probably looking at around 15. I consider the Plaguebearers pretty much essential, not just in themselves but as a BSB bunker too. The Horrors are an edge in the magic phase I don't want to give up. The Daemonettes bring Flaming Attacks and ASF but at 165pts their Herald is not cheap, cutting them might free points up to strengthen elsewhere.

So the first option is a unit of 15 with full command and Banner of Swiftness to take them to M6 and help to get the charge. This is 255pts, not cheap. On the plus side they come with MR 1. They also have Killing Blow, a bit specialised but good against knights and a real deterrant for Infantry and Cavalry characters. The real plus here for the army is all the points I'm saving on the Herald. The downside is their vulnerability to Monstrous Cavalry, Monsters or Hordes. My list also lacks S5+ attacks, so if they do get the charge they'll bring some welcome killing power.

The Herald is I6 but I suspect ASF is necessary here to get some damage in and prevent re-rolls from elves. This means taking a 25pt Gift and defaulting to the ASF sword, at 125pts. This table has some good options, like Multiple Wounds 2 and a one-shot 2+ Ward, so a second such Gift is an idea. The big question is whether to risk a Locus. So long as the Herald lives, the damage output is respectable. But if he goes down, at 185+ points it's going to hurt.

Thoughts welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:48 am 
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First thought is that it's nice to have a choice between some useful stuff in core... It's much better then a choice between archers who never hit anything, spearmen who, at 4 times the points, fight about as good as skaven slaves or LSG who are more expensive as archers or spearmen but don't do anything as good. Which is why a lot of HE players default to putting models on horses...

Some more serious thoughts: From the sound of it, plaguebearers and horrors are pretty crucial to your list. So they definitely stay. The choice then is between bloodletters and deamonettes. I think that's a choice that is very dependent on the meta you're playing in. Both have strengths and weaknesses that play into the meta. I4 is decent for a core block. Especially if you face a lot of low I armies (which actually is most armies). If your meta is full of elves then having an ASF unit makes a lot of difference.

Potentially S5 makes a big difference in a lot of cases. It means hitting a lot of stuff on 2's and denying armour saves to HA or LA + Shield units. Again, very strong vs some armies. But vs high T or high AS armies it matters less. On the other hand, it's still better then S3 in pretty much all situations. A fact I'm reminded of every time I shoot with the archers I mentioned above at anything at all... And killing blow is a great asset. It will make any infantry and cavalry character bearing unit hesitate to charge them outright. If one (un)lucky six can do in your character then you want to make damn sure you'll not take any return attacks before charging them. And a character can easily take 4-6 attacks back, 2-3 wounds for an almost 1-in-2 chance of seeing a 6 come up. Even with a 4+ ward I wouldn't like those odds.

Another thing is that they could help dictate the flow of battle. With M5 (or 6) they aren't the fastest and will have difficulty getting the charge. On the other hand, it does mean your opponent will have to take them into consideration and that either he has to charge them or stay out of their charge range (which is still a good 13'' for M6 on average). It's a passive board control option.

All in all, depending on your meta, I think they can really add something to your list. If you regularly face something that can wipe them out on the charge or run circles around them they will not be the best choice. But otherwise they will add value I think.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 10:03 pm 
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More on Core


High Elves

Most of us remember the previous HE book, which released in 7th edition but remained well into 8th. One of the primary complaints here, as you reference above Rod, was the all-infantry nature of the Core. Firstly (especially when combined with the excellent elite infantries) this tended to encourage infantry-heavy armies. Secondly the Core was held to be simply bad. In general, Archers were held to be the best of a bad bunch. LSG had a few niche uses and there was an argument for deep Spear blocks in aggressive lists but in general.

It could be argued that not much changed for these units with the current book. Archers arguably benefitted most from the new Martial Prowess rule and remained the go-to infantry choice. They feature heavily in defensive infantry lists and sometimes combined arms. LSG, if anything, became even harder to justify. Spears are sometimes seen in PG Star lists for example.

As you mention Rod, the inclusion of cavalry was a game-changer. Firstly Reavers, Core redirectors are excellent, countering the need to buy Eagles in Rare. Secondly Silver Helms, which enabled fearsome World Dragon buses. A common feature of armies with good Core is their ability to build solid combat units from that allowance. Examples are Witch Elves, Ironguts, IC Knights.


Daemons

Now obviously, that solid combat unit for Daemons is Plaguebearers. Additionally, this is the only realistic bunker for a Nurgle BSB. Especially important because much of the army's strength lies in Beasts and Drones which benefit heavily from him. Horrors are Core Wizards and good at range. Essentially, strong Daemon Core is 0-1 23-35 strong PB block and 0-4 x 10 Horrors. I mess around with MMU but while not terrible, it isn't optimal. As mentioned before, an infantry block has to be damn good. Running more than one tends to weaken a list, for most books because of the innate vulnerabilities of the troop type. Daemon Core can do some things HE Core can't but it is all-infantry, HE cavalry options counterbalance this.

Whilst I'm trying to look on the bright side of Bloodletters, the bottom line is they appear better than they are. Once Daemon players started to use them in their current incarnation the shortcomings became clear. As Curu used to say, what matters is how good a unit is in your most difficult match-ups, which for Daemons are elves. Bloodletters are weak against elves. I find the contrast with HE archers particularly amusing because posters on The Daemonic Legion would swap 'letters for HE archers in a heartbeat! No doubt this has something to do with the lack of armour. Killing Blow is great in the right circumstances, it's just a question of how often those circumstances crop up.

My current feeling is that my Daemonettes are just better because of the synergies with their Herald and the Keeper of Secrets. ASF is a massive buff for them, not only for the re-rolls but because it means they strike simultaneously with the army's nemesis, elves and those no longer re-roll to hit the 'nettes. My unit will actually beat charging Wild Riders, where Bloodletters plus Herald get hacked to pieces. It's worth trying the latter out but only because any hidden synergy or spin is likely only to emerge through the fires of battle.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 10:23 am 
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Some progress:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 1:45 am 
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I've now submitted my list for Champions of Destiny next weekend:

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 75pt Gift
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 25pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
14 Daemonettes, Eternal Flame, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Banner of Swiftness

4 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Fiends of Slaanesh
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies, Slaanesh

Skillcannon

2486

So pretty much the list I discussed with Joaco earlier. I took Rod's advice and went with the 75pt Gift, rather than a 50 plus a 25. We'll see what the Eternal Blade can do! This is the split of armies at the event:

3 x VC
2 x Skaven
2 x Empire
Wood Elves
Dwarfs
Chaos Dwarfs
Lizardmen
Daemons
Ogres

Potentially too many cannon for my liking! The key will obviously be keeping the Keeper alive and getting him into the right combats where I can.

I've now finished a second Fiend. I'll put a shot up of the unit when the last one's done.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 10:05 pm 
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Fiends

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Hot to trot!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 8:46 am 
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Fiends looking nice - good luck with the list :)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:00 pm 
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Thanks RE.

Just got back, had a blast!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 8:35 am 
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They're looking great. And good to hear you had a good tournament. How did the list perform?

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:24 pm 
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Nicely done, I can almost smell the musk from here.

Looking forward to the report of the weekend's shenanigans.


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 8:33 pm 
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Thanks guys, from this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69715&start=30

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Well, I do have to tell you that I left this thread open on the computer and the 5 year old saw them and said that they are "cool creepy zebras" which I'd take as a pretty big compliment.

:)

My wife's from Mauritius and on our visit to the island's safari park we beheld a pair of zebras whose behaviour would have made Slaanesh proud, funnily enough.


Champions of Destiny

Image

So in the end this was a 10-player event hosted by Warzone Workshop in Northampton. I have relatives from there but had never actually been there. TO was Mark Peat, who did a good job, despite it being his first time and despite also playing with his lovely High Elves, there's a picture of his wonderfully purple Phoenix Guard earlier in the thread. It was a one-day event, three games. We had 2 x VC's, 2 x Skaven, 2 x Daemons, High Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs, a nice spread. As posted earlier, my list:

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 75pt Gift
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 25pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
14 Daemonettes, Eternal Flame, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Banner of Swiftness

4 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Fiends of Slaanesh
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies, Slaanesh

Skillcannon

2486

I'd dropped my Flesh Hounds and Seekers for the Fiends, Nurgle spell and Exalted Gift. I arrived on time for once to find myself in a typical 'wargames room above a shop', I liked it. As luck would have it, I was facing the Skaven player from my very last game! As detailed earlier, I'd won that 14-6 but under comp. Here, she brought the following:

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Warpstone Tokens
BSB, Banner of the Under-empire
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Condenser
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll
Warlock Engineer, Brass Orb

82 Clanrats, FC
46 Slaves
45 Slaves

5 Gutter Runners, Slings, Poison
5 Gutter Runners, Slings, Poison
6 Jezzails, Sharpshooters
6 Jezzails, Sharpshooters

Abomination, Warpstone Spikes
Abomination

Thoughts on the match-up welcome...

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:28 am 
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Feels like a tough list for you. The big blocks are hard to get through and dual Abomb can cause all sorts of issue, unless you can get your flaming stuff into them. Which will be tough given their mobility and a relative lack of it in your list. The Jezzails should keep your characters honest until / unless you can deal with them. The gutter runners aren't that big a worry on the other hand. 2 units of 5 can dish out some hurt. But it could be a lot worse. Especially since you have limited static stuff in your list. No juicy shooting units to go after (though the skillcannon should be careful).

Prediction would be that he starts off conservative and will first try shooting and magic (and skaven magic is no joke with 3 casters and tokens) to soften you up. Tactics wise I would see if I could separate the abombs. Tarpit one of them and try to deal with the other asap. Have some of your faster elements deal with the jezzails and distract the blocks. Then either take them out with overwhelming force, assassinate characters with suicide charges or ignore them since (except for the bell unit) there isn't a lot of points in them.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:00 am 
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Ah, the good old "pepper them with jezzail shots and slam them in the face with double A-bomb" list :D

As always, coordinating flaming attacks against those Hellpits is a priority. After that just try no to get bogged down in all those bodies...

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:38 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Feels like a tough list for you.

I agree with this up to a point Rod. The biggest issue is that over half my points are in Infantry, Skaven bring Dreaded 13th and Daemons lack a Dispel Scroll. This makes an Infantry assault on the Bell unit very risky. I am not too concerned about a static approach from the Skaven because almost all their strength is in the Bell unit. This makes for weak flanks I can pick off, unless the big block makes a nuisance of itself. Although my infantry average M5, my other troops are pretty quick.

The Jezzails are a threat to two things in my army, the Skillcannon and the Keeper. The former is relatively cheap, so I can risk it if needs be. The latter must not be exposed. Gutter Runner Poison could be an issue for the KoS but less so the Cannon because of it's 3+ AS. A rear charge might just be a problem.

RE.Lee wrote:
As always, coordinating flaming attacks against those Hellpits is a priority.

Thankfully, I have tools here RE and was fairly happy to see Aboms.


Overall I feel this a par match-up.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:08 pm 
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Quote:
My wife's from Mauritius and on our visit to the island's safari park we beheld a pair of zebras whose behaviour would have made Slaanesh proud, funnily enough.


Googled this (Mauritius, not zebras) last night - looks looooooooooovely! Bet she misses it in sunny Blighty ;).

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:47 pm 
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A fascinating place Ferny. The trees are totally different for a start and there are all these mini-mountains. It's got a real mix of cultures, bits are quite basic but other bits are high-tech. You always feel like you're not far from the seaside! The hotels are supposed to be quite luxurious but in a way I'm glad we stayed with my in-laws and saw some different things to usual.


Wrath of the Horned Rat
Game One - Skaven


Pre-game and Deployment

Grey Seer: Bless with Filth, Cloud of Corruption, Plague, Dreaded 13th
Warlock Engineer: Warp Lightning, Scorch
Warlock Engineer: Warp Lightning, Death Frenzy

Keeper of Secrets: Acquiescence, Slicing Shards, Phantasmagoria, Cacophonic Choir
BSB: Fleshy Abundance
Horrors: Treason of Tzeentch
Herald: Bolt of Change, Infernal Gateway

Keeper: Eternal Blade
BSB: Fencers Blades
Herald: Sword of Might


Pretty standard for the Skaven, happily Daemon Toughness and Ward save make for better resilience here than armies which rely on armour. Bless with Filth (which gives Poison) reversed this trend however. My rolls were near-perfect, Acquiescence to slow the Bell, blasting spells to kill Abominations and some potential combat-winners. I defaulted my Gifts to magic weapons to save time, no huge sacrifice.

I forgot to take pictures until after my turn 2 movement but hopefully they will illuminate what I describe here. The Bell unit (insert characters), with it's firethrower went down early opposite my centre right. Right of this (from my perspective) were Slaves, with an Abom far right. Similarly, it's other flank was guarded by another Abom, then more Slaves (with Brass Orb guy) behind a hill in the middle. The first unit of Jezzails sat behind a wall centre-left, with the second unit in the open far left.

I dropped my BSB and Plaguebearers far left, well clear of Dreaded 13th range. They would have a slog to get to the Jezzails opposite. Next Daemonettes plus Herald, I was slightly more willing to risk these if needs be. Then Flamers, with Furies on a hill. Horrors plus Herald in the middle, eyeing the central Abom. The Beasts went down centre-right opposite the Bell unit, hopefully this fight would be slightly delayed. Next the Skillcannon. Fiends and Keeper were on my right, their job was to combo the Abom there before turning inwards to help the Beasts.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 3:32 pm 
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Turn One

I won the roll-off and marched my infantry blocks forwards on the left. The Flamers followed up more cautiously while the Furies stayed put on their hill, close enough for now. In the centre the Horrors closed to Gateway range of the Abom while centre-right the Beasts and Skillcannon stayed put. Far right, the Fiends and Keeper hunted down the second Abom. Magic saw Gateway scrolled, while shooting yielded a couple of wounds on the central Abom from the cannon.

Both units of Jezzails stayed put on my left but the rest of the army rushed forwards. Dreaded 13th failed to cast and shooting achieved little. Several charges were now threatened though.


Turn Two

The Plaguebearers continued their trek up the left. The Daemonettes though, took the offered flank charge on the Slaves and made it in. The Flamers edged forwards again and the Furies held station again. I should have charged the Bell unit with the Beasts but instead moved these up to a couple of inches in front. Fiends and Keeper combo-charged their Abom.

Left and Centre

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Right and Centre

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 4:33 pm 
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A combination of Gateway and Skillcannon finished off the central Abom. The Daemonettes killed a good few Slaves, winning comfortably but the latter held on re-rollable seven. I then allowed my opponent a Combat Reform which left fewer models in combat, for some reason. I put two wounds on the other Abom and took one in return on my Fiends, Abom held.

Both units of Gutter Runners failed to turn up. Bell charged the Beasts, while the Slaves eschewed the combat on the right and marched straight past! A big magic phase saw me hold onto my dice to stop Dreaded 13th, at the cost of allowing Bless with Filth on the Bell unit. A Plaguebearer and a Flamer respectively, were shot off by the Jezzails. The Daemonettes ground on but the now Ld10 Slaves held easily. Reign of Chaos had temporarily gifted me a universal 4+ Ward, stopping any damage on the Fiends, while they and the Keeper put another two wounds on the Abom, which held again. The big combat was ugly. The Beasts killed a Warlock Engineer but low rolls for Attacks meant they did little else and the Poison from Bless with Filth hurt them big time. After Daemonic Instability, only one Beast (on three wounds) remained.

Left Flank

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Right Flank

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 8:01 pm 
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Turn Three

The Plaguebearers chugged onwards, while the Flamers moved onto the Skaven hill, eyeing a redirecting move. Skillcannon charged the approaching Slaves. Furies flew behind the expiring Beast to stop any tricks from the Bell unit. Magic and shooting achieved little. The Daemonettes ground on but the Slaves held again. The Beast died as expected. The cannon won but the Slaves stood firm. Another wound was put on the Abom.

Both units of Gutter Runners arrived! They made a kind of V shape behind the unfortunate Horrors. The Bell charged the Furies. Bless with Filth went up on the Slaves fighting the cannon. Shooting was nasty, the Gutter Runners taking the back rank off the Horrors, while Regen failed me as the Jezzails shot several Plaguebearers down. The Warlock Engineer in the Daemonette combat threw his Brass Orb to add to the Nurgly woe. I maintained this counted as a shooting attack from combat and was hence illegal but the TO ruled the other way. At least his unit was finally destroyed, the Daemonettes reforming to face the nearest Jezzails. The other Slave combat stuck, while the Bell wiped out the Furies and reformed to face the Abom combat. This finally expired, leaving three bases of Rat Swarms to block off the Keeper.

Left and Centre

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Right

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 8:52 pm 
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Turn Four

The Plaguebearers failed their charge on Jezzails but the Daemonettes made it in. Horrors reformed to face Gutter Runners. The Fiends moved past the Bell unit and the impeded Keeper headed back to the deployment zone. A spectacular Gateway sucked one unit of Gutter Runners into the Realm of Chaos. The Daemonettes duly despatched their Jezzails.

Not much movement from the Skaven but magic finally saw an IF Dreaded 13th remove Daemonettes and Herald, replacing them with Clanrats. Damn. More Horrors shot dead.


Turn Five

Keeper and Flamers crowded the Gutter Runners, while the Plaguebearers finally reached their Jezzails. Tzeentch got Gateway-happy and Cascaded his Herald, vaping the Gutter Runners in the process. Jezzails destroyed but the Skillcannon died to Daemonic Instability.

At this point it was Dice Down! We hadn't realised how close we were. TBH, given the carnage inflicted on both sides in my turn I dont think it made a huge difference to the result:

11-9


A Gateway Too Far

Image


Skaven Hold The Right Flank

Image


No More Jezzails

Image

Comments welcome...

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 8:56 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Turn Four
Not much movement from the Skaven but magic finally saw an IF Dreaded 13th remove Daemonettes and Herald, replacing them with Clanrats. Damn.

Ouch.


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:53 pm 
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Debrief

Doctor wrote:
Ouch

Ouch indeed Doctor. Unlike my last game against this opponent, I was fully aware here of the threat Dreaded 13th posed to my infantry blocks. Hence their flank deployment and my careful marshalling of dispel dice. However, there is little you can do when two power dice come up sixes. To some extent I'm inclined to regard this rather as a failure of list design (running Heralds in MMU infantry) than of tactics. On the plus side, the unit did manage to despatch a fair number of enemy before it met it's doom. Clearly though, Skaven (my opponent's list, while respectable, could have been nastier) are a problematic match-up for my list. More games may reveal others.

I feel my general plan was OK. I might have sent the infantry straight into the Bell unit with the Beasts but then it's a bit of a lottery as to whether Dreaded 13th goes off before I can kill the Grey Seer. If it does I'm in real trouble, if not I'm probably winning big. This is complicated by the Aboms though, I have to stop these getting involved and that might not be easy. Not to mention getting tied up by Slaves.

My main mistake I feel was not charging with the Beasts. If I had, they would effectively gain +2 Combat Res and, crucially, the massed S3 return attacks would lack Poison, which makes a huge difference against the T5 Beasts. This would give me an extra round to kill the Warlocks and take wounds off the Seer, maybe even killing him in round 2. The problem was, I had to keep all of my dispel dice each round to counter Dreaded 13th. This meant my opponent could force one or two other spells of her choosing through, especially with the Warpstone Tokens in reserve.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 8:21 am 
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Fun battle - powerful magic did seem to make it a bit swingy. Dreaded 13th is not just one of those spells - its THAT SPELL :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 8:47 pm 
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Thanks RE, it was quite enjoyable, yeah. We noted how bloody it was at the time!

Magic

Dreaded 13th is a great spell to have against most opponents. There are exceptions of course, Ogres, certain WoC builds for example. But most armies have some infantry that matters. My list is kind of a throwback to early 8th edition, in it's reliance on footsloggers. It's no coincidence that Skaven were regarded as top-tier then but less so since. They also have other very effective anti-infantry elements of course. Abomination, Plague Furnace, Doomrocket for example. The power of Dreaded 13th is compounded by the Warpstone Tokens and in this case by my lack of a Dispel Scroll. Skaven can also easily load up on defensive Arcane Items, leaving the Seer free to take Earthing Rod. I don't know whether my opponent had this because the Miscast she rolled was pretty harmless.

Gateway is important to my list because apart from the cannon I have little else to deal with powerful single models (in this case the Abominations) or small elite units at range. I had the combat power to deal with the flanking Abom but the central one needed to be shot/magicked ASAP. After that it was the turn of the Gutter Runners. Normally I'd consider Aquiescence on the Bell but here I was feeding it units, so not appropriate and my other spells weren't as attractive at the time. It looks crude but it's a vital option to have.

In general I found the Nurgle spell on my BSB vaguely useful over the three games. Here, he was stuck out on the flank, too far away from the combats that needed buffing. Game two lacked fights where he would have made much difference. Game three the spell helped a little. The extra Channel was good, with four I usually found myself generating an extra dice per phase, very helpful for an army lacking easy access to Arcane Items.

Slaanesh magic can be brilliant, with it's epic board control and in game two it really helped. Sometimes though, you need the option of Gateway. Slaanesh also practically demands a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince and that can be problematic, as the second game will show. Again, if you have a Nurgle Lord, you have combat buffs nicely covered but otherwise, the Chaos Lores can sometimes be lacking there. I'm considering the rulebook lores for my next event, in particular Metal, which complements the army well in some ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:47 am 
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It indeed reads like a fun game. Congrats on the win, small as it was.

I think Skaven lists can still be very strong in the right hands. They are more matchup dependent then in early 8th. And they have limited answers to some of the powerlists out there. High T, high armour units are bad news for skaven. But they have access to a lot of nasty toys with their 7th ed item list. And warpstone tokens can lead to a very powerful magic phase. Especially if you have some infantry units you're going to suffer (as you did), simply because dreaded 13th is a must stop spell. It means there are mainly bad choices in the magic phase, which is exactly what you want as a casting player. A scroll helps, but only for a single phase.

But, a skaven player generally does need to be aggressive and willing to throw units or models under the bus. And while they are generally inexpensive, it can start to add up. Which gets in the way of winning big (necessary to do well in tournaments). Reminds me a bit of some discussions we had on the 7th ed book. There, a HE player would generally sacrifice two eagles and perhaps a small unit of archers each game to make sure that the rest of the list did what was needed. Which lead to 200pts each battle being sacrificed. In a 20pts scale, over a 5 game tournament, that's 10 battlepoints a HE player was down over a list that didn't need this. Same with skaven players. Lots of cheap toys, but you need them to hold off the more powerful enemy units.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:17 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
It indeed reads like a fun game. Congrats on the win, small as it was.

Thanks Rod.

I feel Skaven are generally competitive like most armies in 8th. Beastmen and maybe Tomb Kings not so much. A few armies perhaps slightly stronger than the rest. But the mid-range armies can put up a good fight against most opponents. I've outlined above where Skaven are good vs infantry but their Rare choices are good vs monsters, Gutter Runners hunt war machines etc.. I agree about the magic items, Brass Orb vs low Initiative for example or Storm Banner vs Flying Circuses and Gunlines. The magic is also pretty flexible, Plague for example can be deadly vs knights.

The weakness in my opponent's list here was in the vulnerability of the Jezzails and Aboms against my list. If I play properly, I should take these elements out. The difference with the bigger win I got last time was that then I lost mainly redirectors, here the Beasts and Daemonettes went down, costing me the solid win.


Nemesis
Game Two - Skaven


Grey Seer, Warpstone Tokens, stuff
Warlord, combat gear but no Fellblade
BSB, stuff
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, stuff
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 1, stuff
Assassin, stuff

40 Stormvermin, FC, Mortar
40 Slaves
40 Slaves
30 Clanrats, Mortar

9 Gutter Runners, Slings, Poison
9 Gutter Runners, Slings, Poison

Doomwheel
Doomwheel
Warp Lightning Cannon
Warp Lightning Cannon

This was my tenth tournament game with the Daemons and my fifth against Skaven, fully 50%! Here we were playing Battle For The Pass and in addition, a pair of non-aligned Giants started on the centre line, with random movement and attack rules.

Thoughts on this one as usual welcome.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:22 am 
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No Abominations this time, but those double Doomwheels and Cannons might mean trouble for your multiwound models. Its very much random, but I'm looking forward to seeing what your opponents manages with them. Could go both ways.

All in all the Skaven list is much more like what I like to field. Its all about that S-vermin horde here, with the other units deployed to shield or support it. Given your magic skills I think you'll be able to influence the movement of forces better, so you should be good ;)

Bring on the report!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:40 am 
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The stormvermin unit is slightly more unusual I think. From what I see, skaven players usually go for quantity over quality. Still, with S4 and a fair number of attacks they can be bad news for many of your units. The doomwheels and WLC can be bad news if left unchecked. They're pretty random (though in my experience the downsides they have are more gimmicky then real downsides). But with 2 of each, at least one should do what's needed.

I agree with RE.Lee that your magic can play a nice role here. And that the stormvermin horde is the crucial part of the list. I would personally probably ignore the S-vermins until the other big threats (cannon and doomwheel) were neutralized or dealt with. Being infantry and in the midst of big slave units means that that's an option. The Mortars are a bit a wildcard here. They are easy to take out, and highly unreliable. But also can be devastating (although your wardsaves will help). And you're lacking BS shooting which is ideal for taking them out normally.

Bring on the report indeed! (yes, I know I still have to finish mine, I'll get to it).

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:53 pm 
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Some good points here.

RE.Lee wrote:
No Abominations this time, but those double Doomwheels and Cannons might mean trouble for your multiwound models.

Exactly RE. My Monstrous Beasts are immune to Dreaded 13th but the Doomwheels are very dangerous, with their lightning attacks. For the Keeper of Secrets it's even worse. The WLC's have variable Strength but they go straight through Monstrous screens, unlike normal cannon. This problem is compounded by Battle for the Pass (it's harder to slip past) and the presence of the Giants. So I need my own cannon and Gateway to start taking the Rares down quickly.

RE.Lee wrote:
Given your magic skills I think you'll be able to influence the movement of forces better, so you should be good

This did indeed help more than I realised beforehand.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The stormvermin unit is slightly more unusual I think. From what I see, skaven players usually go for quantity over quality. Still, with S4 and a fair number of attacks they can be bad news for many of your units.

I've seen quite a few Skaven lists with a Bell pushed by Stormvermin Rod. On their own, they're not that scary but when you factor in the Bell, Assassins, Spells, Magic items etc. it can be a potent package. One reason I've perhaps seen less of the massed Clanrats approach from game one is the restrictions on unit size and points common at tournaments. This event though, was uncomped. Stormvermin without the Bell are less worrying but hard to get to here in sufficient strength.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I would personally probably ignore the S-vermins until the other big threats (cannon and doomwheel) were neutralized or dealt with.

Precisely. This is a difficult game for me because I can't rush forwards and if I don't, I'm very unlikely to get to the enemy in one piece. In particular, it's a world of pain for the Keeper. A single wall for cover and no sane way forwards. I rate this at least a -1 match-up and possibly a -2.


Pre-game and Deployment

Grey Seer: Dreaded 13th, Warpgale, Death Frenzy, Scorch
Warlock Engineer: Warp Lightning, Skitterleap
Warlock Engineer: Warp Lightning

Interesting choice to go for all of Ruin, rather than going for both Lores, as my first opponent did. I still think the latter approach is stronger though, spells like Plague and Wither are too useful.

Keeper of Secrets: Aquiesence, Hysterical Frenzy, Cacophonic Choir, Phantasmagoria
BSB: Curse of the Leper
Horrors: Treason
Herald: Blue Fire, Gateway (thankfully!)

Keeper: Eternal Blade
BSB: Fencers Blades
Herald: Sword of Might


My opponent placed a Doomwheel far forward on each flank, probably hoping to deal quickly with the Giants. Similarly, the Warp Lightning Cannon were one each side, though further back, that on my left being behind a wall in a hamlet. The Clanrats were pretty much central, then a unit of Slaves in a wood centre-right. Behind these sat the Stormvermin, with all characters. The other Slaves held the right wing.

On my left were the Skillcannon and Horrors with Herald, reasonably far forward. Their job was to get in range and target the enemy Rares. Next Plaguebearers and then Daemonettes (with Heralds), pretty much as far from the Grey Seer as I could get them. In front were the Furies and Fiends. The Beasts were centre-right and then the Keeper, sheltering behind the wall on a hill. Far-right were the Flamers.

I'd decided to hang back and use shooting and magic to counter the WLC's, while trying to preserve the Keeper. Essentially, I was playing for the minor loss, there were just too many obstacles to a successful push. Needless to say though, there was plenty, both good and bad, I hadn't foreseen!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:17 am 
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First up, some penguins:

Image

:)

Turn One

First turn went to the Skaven. The dice allowed them to send the Giant on my left a long way towards my Skillcannon, stopping a few inches short. The guy on the right decided to throw a rock at the Doomwheel closest to him but Misfired and took a wound. Both wheels and both mortars came forwards but the rest of the army stayed put. Skitterleaping a Warlock Engineer was dispelled, but Warpgale got through. The right Doomwheel put wounds on the Giant but not enough to kill him. I was in luck however, as one Warp Lightning Cannon failed to fire and the other blew up!

On the left, I sent the Giant way back upfield and into the Doomwheel. The other one chose to do nothing. Skillcannon and Horrors advanced while the Keeper moved to the centre of my deployment zone. Magic saw Aquiescence slow the free Doomwheel and my cannon took out the remaining WLC. The Giant/Doomwheel combat stuck.

Daemon Left

Image

Combat

Image

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