Segway to Hell

[SpellArcher]

Thanks guys.

How would you look to take on a gunline army who is prepared to sit back and shoot the **** out of your fragile stuff, ignoring the slower, more durable units? I assume that your Keeper would be quite wary of cannon fire too, and therefore be much more restricted in his/her influence? That said, would the comp make war machine-heavy lists unattractive?

Gunlines are the bane of slow infantry armies. While the Plaguebearers and Horrors remain M4, the rest are somewhat faster. The Daemonettes for example are M6, the Beasts M6/Swiftstride. I also have lighter, faster elements that can hunt War Machines, unless the opponent deploys very tightly. That usually means cornering, a really negative five-war machine set-up for example might tempt me to sit in the opposite corner all game.

The comp should help here because each decent war machine (for example, Cannon, Organ Gun, Hellcannon) carries a -1 penalty so a typical Dwarf list might come in at -4 or -5. Beasts are pretty fast and with T5, Regen and 4 wounds per model take a fair bit of killing. An opponent will find it difficult to ignore them and persecute my infantry. We have to take a building, so that's one option for protecting the Keeper. The other is to advance behind the Beasts, using them as a cannon-screen. KoS is M10, which also helps.

Are you confident in being able to deal with heavy cavalry? I ask because a lot of your units are fairly small, giving cavalry the chance to break a unit in one turn, thus avoiding rubber lance syndrome. The herald with Ogre Blade looks nasty, but can the rest of the unit back it up against a heavily armoured foe before the return attacks?

This is a good question Orchaldor because Daemons can struggle somewhat against armour. Even the Beasts are only S4 and while a slew of Poisoned attacks helps, 1+ armour in particular can be a bit of a roadblock. My first answer to this is the characters. All have high strength attacks and the Keeper in particular can make a real mess of armour. I'm virtually certain to roll Cacophonic Choir and that is great versus armour. Plus the Skillcannon against multi-wound targets.

A unit of six Wild Riders say, will put about six wounds on the Daemonettes on average, so these are very likely to remain Steadfast. The issue is with a full-on bus, say 12+ knights with at least 3 characters. The Plaguebearers or Beasts should hold a charge even from this, especially if I can preserve the BSB. Re-rolled Daemonic Instability tests are superb because say you lose by two. The unit might test on seven reduced to a five. You roll a ten say but then re-roll and get a six. You lose one extra wound and keep grinding. This happened in my fourth game at my last tournament, round after round.

Interesting comp system. Glad to see some people are choosing to ignore the madness that was the End Times and simply play a normal game (there still isn't that much wrong with 8th in my opinion...). It feels reasonably fair, though it comes down to how they decide on what's a friendly and what's a hard choice.

On the whole I think the comp is solid though there are definitely exceptions, hits for iffy picks like Mournfangs/Executioners, bonuses for decent ones like Tyrion/Dreadquake Mortar. I'm pretty sure nastier Daemon lists can be made at -3 but it's hard to fit too much of the juicy Nurgle stuff in for example, without destroying your comp score.

The list is quite a change from the previous magic heavy list. It's interesting to see how it goes. It looks more aggressive. How do you find switching play styles works for you? I tend to run fairly agressive, combat focused lists normally. Consquently, running a more defensive, magic oriented list is hard for me. It takes patience to run a defensive, avoidance list.

I'd describe my style as 'controlled aggression' Rod. I like to get stuck in but on my terms. So usually a fair amount of sniping stuff off, redirecting and ganging up on things before combat hits. As I mentioned earlier, it was a tricky business maxing out on magic and having to dodge combats. Being able to put the Beasts and Plaguebearers into almost anything and hold gives you freedom. Plus I have elements that can actually kill things.

I think it still has enough ranged threat to dominate parts of the battlefield. Pure gunlines and lists that can ignore your ranged threats will be tough. But those will probably be a minority. And if you can play the hammer + anvil tactics I think work with this list then you can do fairly well I think.

One of the most disorientating things has been adjusting to lack of BS shooting. I have the Flamers but they're not the same as thirty or forty arrows or bolts that can target most of the battlefield. The cannon should help and Slaanesh magic is strong against elves for example, which helps with board control. The key is that now I have several units that can fight. None is individually amazing but if they work together they can take stuff down.

Are you planning on getting any practice games in?

It's looking unlikely but at least I have seven under my belt thus far.

[SpellArcher]

So I'm having a rethink about my characters. To recap, this is the current set-up:

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl 4 Slaanesh, 50pt Gift, 25pt Gift
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 1 Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 50pt Gift

I'm pondering this for exactly the same points. No change to comp score:

Daemon Prince, Lvl4 Slaanesh, Chaos Armour, 50pt Gift, 25pt Gift
BSB, Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch, Floating Disc

I lose the extra power of the Keeper and the Heralds cease to be Wizards. This means a loss of one Channel, worse spell selection on Slaanesh and no useful combat buff from Nurgle. So why? It's all about the Horrors. As things stand I have 175pts invested in these, to make up Core. Against elves for example, the modest sig spell (Blue Fire MM) is useful, the Channel is helpful and if I get really lucky I roll Gateway. Versus the big block armies I faced at Reading though, they don't do much.

One thing I really like about the book is the way the Heralds empower the lesser daemons. The Nurgle guy gives Regen, Slaanesh gives ASF, both make a big difference. Tzeentch though, doesn't even need Loci because there's strong synergy simply in adding magic levels. I go from a 16% chance of rolling Gateway to a 70ish% chance, which means I'm likely to get it in two out of the three games at the tournament. While I'm introducing the cannon and I have other spells, Gateway is a mighty fine option to have against a Dragon for example.

The Disc is double-edged. Whilst it gives the Herald great mobility to deploy his spellcasting, he lacks the outrageous saves of his WoC equivalent, so is quite likely to be shot down in short order. Happily, he can still join the Horrors for protection, though he lacks Look out Sir. Even this though can be momentarily gained from the Seekers, as both are Cavalry. It's worth noting I can simply run the guy on foot in the unit if I wish.

Lichebone Pennant would give the combined unit a 4+ Ward vs spells, re-rolling 1's, not too shabby. It can be shot but the Attribute means I pretty much regrow a Horror for every two wounds inflicted by their spells. I'm even tempted by the 50pt Locus to give both Herald and Horrors +1 Strength to their spells. If I roll three damage spells that begins to look like a real battery. Removing magic from the other Heralds does at least mean less self-inflicted damage from Miscasts.

I'm very unsure. Any thoughts welcome.

[Prince of Spires]

First thought is a question: what problem are you trying to solve? (asked as a simple, open question, not to direct you in a particular direction).

In general I think that a single level 2 is normally stronger then two lvl 1's. The main reason to have 2 lvl 1's is to get 2 arcane items. I don't think that's an issue here. So if the lvl 4 ends up in the warp then you're better off (slightly) with the lvl 2 herald as opposed to the two lvl 1's.

It also sounds like the second option gives you a bit more reliability in all area's except channeling. Which in itself is also worth something. On the other hand, the second option is also easier to get points off perhaps.

The deamon prince is a bit more an offensive choice, compared to the keeper of secrets. Or is that a misjudgement on my part?

I don't have a concrete answer for you. My initial thought is that this is the kind of question you would normally devote 5-10 games of playtesting to. Unfortunately, that's not an option here. Though if you want we can see if we can get a game on Universal Battle in to try an option.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

First thought is a question: what problem are you trying to solve? (asked as a simple, open question, not to direct you in a particular direction).

It's a good question Rod. I guess I would say to take my support magic, which is a little 'bitty' and to make it more of a threat. The Slaanesh magic on the level four is mainly about board control, which is important for an army lacking archery. The level ones are spread between three Lores and are arguably a little random and underwhelming in their effects. Three levels of Tzeentch on the other hand is a reasonable guarantee of significant ranged damage.

On the other hand, the second option is also easier to get points off perhaps.

This is an issue. It concentrates at least 300pts in one place (though a Disc would offer an ejector seat) for an enemy to target. On the other hand, leaving wizards in my combat units risks blowing those up with Miscasts. Not to mention the fighting Heralds themselves, with concomitant loss of Loci.

The deamon prince is a bit more an offensive choice, compared to the keeper of secrets. Or is that a misjudgement on my part?

In general the KoS is just better because he has slightly higher numbers in most stats. The Slaanesh DP is cheaper and has a 4+ save from Chaos Armour, which is useful vs archery for example. Under the comp the Keeper is the only Greater Daemon to give the same comp bonus as a Daemon Prince, which makes him tempting. I kind of feel that if I'm spending around 500pts on a Monster General anyway, I may as well go for maximum damage. The problem is that dropping the two magic levels from the Heralds only yields 70pts and the difference between this and the cost of the Lvl2 has to come from somewhere.

Though if you want we can see if we can get a game on Universal Battle in to try an option.

Thanks Rod. I think that's a step too far for me at the moment though!

[Prince of Spires]

It sounds like you're getting stronger magic and more reliability in that magic and giving up some combat punch. An added bonus is not running the risk of miscasting with the heralds.

On paper it sounds like a good trade-off. Especially since you would be careful throwing your lvl 4 general into combat anyway, even with the higher stats of the KoS I think.

The only question then is, can you compensate for the loss in combat power elsewhere in your list? Do you have ways of dealing with other high T or high armour save units you would normally send the KoS at?

If you do then it's a good tradeoff. If not, then you can find yourself struggling against these lists.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

It sounds like you're getting stronger magic and more reliability in that magic and giving up some combat punch.

Could be Rod. The Daemon Prince is level with the Keeper on WS 9 and S6 AP, while he has 5 attacks vs the 6 of the KoS. The bigger difference is probably 4 wounds vs 5 and T5 vs T6, which probably outweigh Chaos Armour. You're quite right that I have to be careful committing to combat anyway. Daemonic Instability is great for units but it can kill single models very quickly, especially without a re-roll. I've a nasty feeling the difference could approach that between Dragon and Star Dragon and we all know the correct choice there.

The Beasts and Plaguebearers are very solid and I have the Daemonettes for a bit of shock. But the General could be key for tackling heavily armoured characters for example. As said the DP is a powerful fighter but against good stuff the T6 and extra wound of the KoS could matter. Not to mention against Doombolts, Cannonballs, RBT etc..

So is there any way to keep the Keeper and go Tzeentch as well? While the 50pt Gift table is littered with juicy stuff, you can't predict that with any certainty. At least with the 25pt Gifts you have the ASF sword as an excellent default. So it might be possible just to take that. For the same points:

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 25pt Gift
BSB, Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

I lose the Disc but retain the Tz Herald alongside the Keeper. The good thing about this set-up is that all three Gifts default to an always-useful magic weapon (ASF Sword, Fencers Blades, Ogre Blade). I lose interesting options like the Lash of Despair though. Food for thought.

[SpellArcher]

I'm almost there with this draft:

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 50pt Gift, 25pt Gift
BSB, Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 25pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
14 Daemonettes, Eternal Flame, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Lichebone Pennant

4 Beasts of Nurgle
5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies, Slaanesh
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

I've cut the 50pt Gift on the Slaanesh Herald to 25pts. I don't like it but figure that Sword of Might will still leave her with 4 ASF, WS 7, S5 AP attacks. The problem is I'm still 21 pts over. The obvious thing to do is to shave a chunk of 25pts somewhere. Most likely is to lose the 25pt Gift from the Keeper of Secrets, though this leaves him unable to take a combat buff plus a defensive buff. I don't want to downgrade the 50pt Gift on the BSB because Fencers Blades helps keep him alive and that's vital to the Plaguebearers and Beasts.

I could raid the units and lose Slaanesh from the Furies and Ambush from the Flesh Hounds. The latter is arguable. I like it versus war machines but not otherwise. But the Furies need Slaanesh to pass March and Daemonic Instability tests on the General's 18" Ld 9, their own Ld is 2. I switched out Standard of Discipline on discovering it was -1 comp for any army!

As ever, ideas to solve this riddle welcomed.

[Prince of Spires]

I don't have the deamon book, so I can't help you with more then general ideas in this instance.

Looking at it I'm not sure shaving more points off the characters is a good idea. Doing so would really start eating into their usefulness. And you may just end up in a situation where you have the extra character but you can't do anything with it since it's lacking in survivability or combat strength. If that ends up being the case then you might as well not take the character I think. So, getting points from them is not an option.

I think you can lose ambush on the flesh hounds. You lose a bit of flexibility in them. On the other hand, they become more predictable (since they on average should not show up T2 at least once in a 3 game tournament). Are they classed as fast cavalry (or rather, do they vanguard)?

How are you for core points? Can you drop a few (command) models there?

I'm guessing most of the special stuff already is minimum unit size.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Thanks Rod, this is helping.

I'm on 626 Core, so I can't cut it. These units are a little underwhelming out of the box but they're the only models I have. Generally I like having three characters in an army. But here there are clear gains from taking four. The BSB in order of importance, gives re-rolls, Regen to the Plaguebearers and a little punch, he's a shoe-in. The Slaanesh Herald isn't essential but given that I have no Drones etc is necessary to turn the Daemonettes into a fighting unit, as opposed to simply a tarpit. A lot of things are T3 or have less than a 3+ Armour save, so the drop to Sword of Might is acceptable.

The more I think about it, the more I feel the Tzeentch Herald is a must. I've already invested 175pts in Horrors, for 125 more I get serious damage spells. Slaanesh magic is excellent but given I have to be cautious with the Keeper, it's likely to pay off mid-late game. A Tzeentch caster who can hide in units brings the pain from turn one and pulls scrolls. Gateway nukes things like Demigryphs that are an issue for me in combat.

I've played seven games and have yet to face War Machines. That's why I'm reluctant to drop Ambush. The Flesh Hounds are M8/Swiftstride while the Seekers are M10 and Fast Cav. But a canny foe will block approach routes with combat units and redirectors, while shooting my hunters off. When Ambushing Flesh Hounds turn up on a baseline, that's 10 T4 5++ wounds he has to shoot off in one round because they don't Panic and have MR3.

The whole issue is that almost everything in the army is just big enough or upgraded enough to do it's job properly. Dropping a Beast for example neuters my strongest unit. My current feeling is that the only thing I can (painfully) afford to drop is the 25pt Gift from the Keeper. If I really need the ASF sword, or the Lash say, I can still default to either, or take a more defensive option if I roll it. As an army gets more honed it becomes harder and harder to shave points off. It's a good sign!

[Prince of Spires]

As an army gets more honed it becomes harder and harder to shave points off. It's a good sign!

It is indeed Another possible approach to consider, if there are no points left to be shaved is to drop something from the list. It could be an option. Drop one of the special units, and use the points to buff the other units so they make up for the removed unit. You know your list best and so are in the best place to make that call I think.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Another possible approach to consider, if there are no points left to be shaved is to drop something from the list.

Another good point. I considered what to cut to make a 2400 list and I think it would be the Seekers, at 100pts. They're a bit fragile, don't hit that hard and don't do anything the list couldn't live without. So why not cut them from the 2500 list? Because they are incrementally useful. They're a drop, a third redirector, a war machine hunter, a chaff-clearer. They can Vanguard to pin enemy Fast Cav back. They look nice and support my Slaaneshi theme. Their speed makes them an arrow-magnet but that helps my infantry. Bottom line is that at 2500 they justify the trimming of Gifts required to fit them in. At 2400, they don't.

[SpellArcher]

Tzeentch Herald WIP

[SpellArcher]

A Thought Experiment

So if I cut the Seekers the characters would look like this:

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 50pt Gift, 25pt Gift
BSB, Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch, Conjuration

The Keeper keeps his 25pt Gift, very likely the excellent ASF sword. I get S6 back on the Slaanesh Herald too. But the real peach is the 50pt Exalted Locus of Conjuration on Tzeentch. As mentioned earlier, this gives +1 to the Strength of both his and his unit's spells. This is very helpful to insure against a duff strength roll on Gateway and for example to turn the D6 Strength of single-diced Blue Fire into D6+1, nice. In all there are 5 S-based spells in the Lore. I love the idea of this and in general am a total sucker for Hero-level casters who punch above their weight. And yet. And yet...

It seems trite to say it but I do constantly find myself dwelling on the fact that the Banner of Sorcery, with the bearer needed to hold it, costs 62 points. That is a big chunk of stuff out of one of my other units. An eagle gone for good, or the best part of a bolt thrower, or Folariath's Robe. The thing is, all of those units buy me something which will always be useful and doesn't need any power dice to work.

This was the list I sent in:

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 50pt Gift
BSB, Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 25pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
14 Daemonettes, Eternal Flame, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Banner of Swiftness

4 Beasts of Nurgle
5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies, Slaanesh
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

[Prince of Spires]

It's a good list I think. And I fully understand your logic for keeping the Seekers. In the end, boots on the ground matter too. Having too much points invested in characters and not having enough units is a downside by itself. Especially since a big part of your army is infantry / cavalry, the extra unit matters. It gives you more board control and makes it harder to redirect significant parts of it.

With something as hard hitting as a dragon it matters less, since you have a flying sledgehammer that's almost impossible to stall / redirect. So you can easily work around having fewer boots on the ground. But with a more combined arms approach, you run the risk of running into an army with 3-4 redirectors which stalls half your army and deals with the other half.

Let us know how the list performs

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Thanks Rod. I'll respond a bit more fully later but in the meantime:

Tzeentch Herald

[SpellArcher]

It's a good list I think.

Playing The System

Great Unclean One, Lvl4, 2x50pt Gift
Nurgle BSB, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift

25 Plaguebearers, FC, Swiftness
10 Horrors
10 Horrors

5 Beasts
5 Nurgle Furies
5 Nurgle Furies

4 Plague Drones, Poison
4 Plague Drones, Poison
Skillcannon

This is the kind of list I would bring if I was being brutal. There are a few things that can take the GUO down but not many and there is no comp penalty for him. With Balesword (Multiple Wounds D3) he can kill almost anything in combat and his magic is strong. Why not Kairos Fateweaver? He costs -6 comp! The Nurgle BSB is identical to mine, both he and the GUO make especial sense here because their General and BSB abilities only work on Nurgle troops. I take -1 comp for the BSB but this is waived here because there are more Plaguebearers.

The PB block is big enough to take a lot of killing and M5 helps. There is a comp penalty per Tzeentch caster after the second so of course you take two units of Horrors, who contribute Channels and useful Magic Missiles. A single unit of 5 Beasts (obviously very strong) is only a -1 hit, you stop there for comp reasons. The Furies are comp-free and are necessary redirectors.

Two Skillcannon cost you -4 comp so of course you only take one for a -1 hit. That leaves enough Rare points for 2x4 Drones which are brutal and only cost -1 comp each. So your final score is -6 but you have an army that will run straight over a lot of stuff. Yes, Purple Sun etc could spoil your day but most match-ups are fine and dandy.

[SpellArcher]

Skull Cannon Conversion

[Prince of Spires]

I like the conversion. It's way over the top silly, which fits with deamons I think.

About the list, why did you decide to go for the list you're taking instead of the one you listed? It looks a bit more uniform and boring perhaps. But it's got a lot of what you want in a list; fast, hard hitting and durable. There probably are a few lists that can run circles around it which will give you trouble scoring points. And anything with a lot of cannons can give you trouble due to low model count. But other then those, it would be a tough list to beat.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

I like the conversion. It's way over the top silly, which fits with deamons I think.

Oh noes! I thought I'd achieved gritty realism!

About the list, why did you decide to go for the list you're taking instead of the one you listed?

Mainly Rod because it's almost all I've got. I had half the army from my old Cult of Slaanesh. Most of the remaining infantry are Core and adding the Beasts and Skillcannon was a no-brainer. The list I took to Reading in November lacked these, substituting the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. The list I'm taking to Coventry is much more rounded, without being a power build. If I get to play more 8th edition I'll consider buying more models.

Overall, the -6 list is stronger than mine, mainly because of the Drones. It will win many games more heavily than my list will. But it does have some weaknesses, while there are elements in my list that give me tools against certain things. For example:

HE Deathtrain

I'm not sure how hard the comp hits this but basically it has a huge Silver Helm bus packed with characters and World Dragon. This is supported by Phoenixes/RBT etc.. Barring a miracle the Nurgle list can't kill the bus and will lose units to it (even redirection is complicated by RBT shooting Furies off). Mobile Purple Sun is a world of pain for Nurgle, especially with no scroll. The list is still very difficult for mine but I have Slaanesh magic to slow the bus down and fewer Nurgle elements. Flesh Hounds can get at the RBT, while Tzeentch magic hurts Phoenixes.

Empire Coven of Light

Massed Beasts (and to a lesser extent Plaguebearers) are bad news for this but with the comp heavily penalising Beast Spam this build is a problem. Regen is brilliant vs Banishment but the Drones don't have it, while the Beasts there are can be blocked by Demis or a Steam Tank. Again, Ambushing Flesh Hounds make a difference, especially because they have MR3, a tip I picked up from Rillix on The Daemonic Legion.

Dark Elf Fast Cav

So lots of Dark Riders, double Warlocks, multiple mounted characters, some shooting. A lot might depend on whether the Drones can herd the DE's and threaten long charges to restrict their movement. The list has a few MM's but board control is an issue here. I lack Drones but Slaanesh is great vs Warlocks, while the Flamers are helpful. My magic is more effective here too.

Wood Elves

Probably all-archer Trueflight Core, 2 x Wild Riders, 2 x Waywatchers, 2 x lvl4, Hail of Doom BSB. The Drones are a big threat to the static archers but Wild Riders especially are worrisome. Difficult for my list because the Slaanesh stuff tends to melt but once again my magic is strong and the support units like Flesh Hounds help.

It's also worth considering that my maximum score is 57pts, that of the -6 list, 54pts. If someone plays the comp and brings a respectable +5 list, they can potentially score 65pts. With 30 players it's also probable that 3+ players will win all three games, so the worse your comp, the bigger chance one of these guys will have a better comp score than you and win the tournament.

[Mollesvinet]

Deleting the cookies worked, I am logged in again!

First of all, nice conversion. At least this movable cannon is strapped to the back of a daemonic creature with legs, not a bloodletter pimp-mobile! Good job, looking forward to see it painted.

Playing the system can be effective, but won't always get you many friends. Using more different units and unusual combinations is much more interesting.

Your list looks nice, it has solid staple units but also some unusual such as flamers and seekers. You have a lot of points in characters, what is the thinking behind the level two on tzeentch? If not going for metal, then you could have gotten another unit of horrors or gotten some more daemonettes. The unit is not very big, but hopefully the ambushing dogs will take some focus away from them.

In any case, best of luck to you!

[SpellArcher]

Deleting the cookies worked, I am logged in again!

Excellent!

First of all, nice conversion. At least this movable cannon is strapped to the back of a daemonic creature with legs, not a bloodletter pimp-mobile! Good job, looking forward to see it painted.

Thanks Thomas. Ongoing, I've done most of the Juggernaut now.

Your list looks nice, it has solid staple units but also some unusual such as flamers and seekers. You have a lot of points in characters, what is the thinking behind the level two on tzeentch? If not going for metal, then you could have gotten another unit of horrors or gotten some more daemonettes. The unit is not very big, but hopefully the ambushing dogs will take some focus away from them.

The Flamers I'm happy with. They're of limited use against combat units but are good against light stuff. The Seekers are fast and can Vanguard but might get dropped for Fiends or Drones in a future list. I'm already spending close to 200 pts on the Daemonettes as, pretty much, just a mobile tarpit. I could enlarge the unit but back ranks don't fight and Plaguebearers do grinding better. By adding the Herald I'm getting a WS 5, ASF, Flaming unit with a decent number of attacks. This takes charges from elves (Wild Riders) surprisingly well. The rough plan is to deploy the Beasts alongside and attack fast, so these should take some heat off the infantry.

Sorcery

If I took Metal, I'd probably end up with Searing Doom and something useful like Enchanted Blades. The former is great against a lot of stuff but like the Skillcannon, it's Flaming. Neither are any good against big threats like the WoC DP, Peg Dreadlord, K'daii Destroyer. I could take more Horrors but that leaves me on two Tzeentch spells at best, only a 40% chance of getting the spell I want, Infernal Gateway. Slaanesh magic is great but, especially if I have to hide the Keeper at first, doesn't draw scrolls because Cacophonic Choir only has a 12" range. Gateway has 24" and isn't Flaming, the only real issue for it is serious Magic Resistance. I roll the Horrors first and keep whatever I get. That gives me a 70% chance of Gateway, so 2 in 3 of these games probably. If not, likely I get Bolt of Change which is still useful against tough single targets and ignores armour.

As things stood, the Horrors gave me a basic Magic Missile, a Channel and some bodies. By adding the lvl 2 for 125pts the magic becomes much more flexible and powerful. Incidentally, the Horrors make a superb bunker for him, so he can cast away without being cannonned or MM'd off. With Banner of Swiftness he can move out 10" when necessary to safety, or to redirect. There is even a champion to take challenges. The list is character-heavy, arguably unwise for Daemons. But given my limited model collection, the choices make sense. My magic remains strong and the Keeper gives serious armour-busting backup to my grinding units. I'd like some more Monstrous stuff but feel that at least I'm getting more value out of my infantry now.

The Drone list I posted above can threaten very long charges to exert some board control. My list can't, so I need an alternative. The worst thing about not playing elves is losing the shooting. Daemons can't match this, so ranged magic becomes more important. If an opponent can run his light stuff around unimpeded, that is an issue, so I have light magic missiles. If he can run Dragons etc around unimpeded, that is potentially fatal, so I have Gateway and Caco. Crucially, I also have Flamers for the former job and the Skillcannon for the latter. Magic is not always reliable!

Thanks for the good wishes!

[Mollesvinet]

All very good points.

I had already forgotten that a level 2 wizard gives +2 to cast. Guess I am already completely into the 9th age haha.

Gateway is a crazy spell, especially when you can six dice it with non-important mages/horrors. Brutal stuff.

[SpellArcher]

Gateway

There are some things this spell isn't great against. Light troops because they're not worth the miscast risk. Infantry blocks can shrug off the losses. Cav buses will generally have at least a 4+ Ward vs spells (typically MR 3). In fact any unit with a decent Ward (or worse, Regen) is a pain. Even 1+ armour saves offer some protection, especially as I can easily roll a 5 or a 6 for the Strength say and the spell doesn't outright ignore armour as Bolt of Change does.

All of that said, an average of seven S7 hits is clearly no joke. Typically it'll at least take a model off Monstrous Cavalry, or vapourise a small unit of knights. Above average rolls will wreck stuff. At Reading it consistently removed Monsters. The fact that I have (probably) Caco and the Skillcannon too leaves me much happier against big flyers for example. This is a magic phase that should bite from turn one.

[SpellArcher]

Skull Cannon

[Mollesvinet]

Beautifuly done.

How did your tournament go?

[SpellArcher]

Beautifuly done.

Thank you!

How did your tournament go?

Warriors of Warwick
"The End of Days"

This was a 22-player event hosted by the club at Warwick University, on their (sizeable!) campus near Coventry. The TO was Dan Tadman. No End Times, no Lore of Undeath, no 50% Lords and Heroes, no names, no pack drill! TBH I feel this encourages more varied armies, I prefer it. As mentioned above, Tally Comp in place, a few House Rules, notably a single Look out Sir vs the big spells. A reminder of my list:

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 50pt Gift
BSB, Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 25pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
14 Daemonettes, Eternal Flame, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Banner of Swiftness

4 Beasts of Nurgle
5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies, Slaanesh
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

2496

Comp Score: -3

This was a 120 mile drive each way for me but I felt I was doing OK for time as I entered Warwickshire. I then proceeded to get completely lost and was only saved for directions by a very kind bloke at a petrol station! Despite this I rolled up very late, expecting to miss the first game. However...



Roman. Very Roman.

[SpellArcher]

Serried Ranks
Game One - High Elves

Archmage, Lvl4, Shadow, Book of Hoeth
Mage, Lvl 2, Beasts, Dispel Scroll
BSB, World Dragon (presumed!)

38 Sea Guard, Shields, Full Command
14 Archers, Musician

15 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Reaver Bow
7 Dragon Princes, Full Command
Tiranoc Chariot
Tiranoc Chariot

10 Sisters of Avelorn
2 RBT
Frost Phoenix

Comp Score: -3

Thoughts on this list and the match-up welcome.

[Mollesvinet]

Main problem for daemons here will be the world dragon banner, I am guessing it went in the 38 sea guard along with other characters? Pit of shades is bad news for your nurgle troops as well. Mindrazor is very good for elves as well.

Two bolt throwers will put pressure on your daemon prince, but hopefully you could take them out quickly with spells, seekers and/or ambushers.

Phoenix makes a great cannon target. None of the other things should make a big problem.

However with all of his characters and most core safe by the banner, I don't see a big win here.

[SpellArcher]

Thanks Thomas, some good points.

My first concern is the High Elf shooting phase. It's not overwhelming but with the Flaming shots from the Sisters to strip Regen and the Archers (and especially the Sea Guard) to add volume to the RBT, it's respectable. As you know, elf shooting can be quite effective against Daemons, largely because they lack armour. Add Withering and even Beasts can be shot down. Most of my opponent's magic is combat-orientated but if he can draw dice with Pit and get Withering through, I'm in trouble.

Combat-wise it is indeed mostly about World Dragon. I can largely rely on beating his units but World Dragon on anything pretty much brings me to a grinding halt. The good thing is that it's not on an aggressive unit with killing power like White Lions or worse, a cavalry bus. Of course it could have been on the Dragon Princes or Phoenix Guard but neither unit really has the weight to carve through my army. The great thing about the BSB carrying it is of course that it goes down last, so potentially stopping me cold in a sector of my opponent's choice.

One answer, if the unit lacks grinding power, is to send the Beasts in to block it up. With BSB within 12" they will last a long time and are only 240pts. The fly in this ointment is Mindrazor and the HE's may well get two or three shots at it. Clearly, assaulting a World Dragon Horde is futile because Okkam's will simply take my unit off, the Sea Guard Mindrazored a Steam Tank in my opponent's third game.

Overall, I feel this is a roughly par match-up. I have to dodge World Dragon (or redirect it) and attack fast where it isn't. The Phoenix is a threat but yes indeed I have the cannon and maybe Gateway or Caco. I need to avoid giving up too many cheap points to the HE shooting phase. The Ambushing Flesh Hounds should be useful here. Acquiesence, if I can roll it, could usefully slow down the World Dragon unit.

[SpellArcher]

Pre-game and Deployment

Archmage: Miasma, Withering, Pendulum, Mindrazor
Mage: Wildform, Savage Beast of Horros

Keeper: Aquiescence, Hysterical Frenzy, Slicing Shards, Phantasmagoria
Herald: Blue Fire, Treason
Horrors: Bolt of Change

Keeper: Lash of Despair
BSB: ASF Sword
Herald: Sword of Might

My opponent lacking Pit was a big win for me as Withering becomes the only must-stop spell before combat. Miasma could be annoying but not terrible. On the flipside he had combat buffs to burn and Book of Hoeth to power them through. Charging and killing stuff in my turn could be a good idea! My spells weren't ideal, getting Aquiescence was important though. Lacking Gateway and Cacophonic Choir, I had to hope the Skillcannon could keep the Frostheart honest, aided perhaps by Bolt of Change. I felt the Lash might be useful to snipe stuff, BSB went for ASF to prevent re-rolls against him. Sword of Might on the Slaanesh Herald was a no-brainer. Due to time pressure I have no photos of set-up I'm afraid but I did take one at the end.

We stuck to table sides for speed. The battlefield was partly bisected by a patch of Impassable terrain in the middle of my opponent's deployment zone and less so by a fenced field in mine. Accordingly, I deployed my Plaguebearers on the centre of my baseline, so they could March to either flank as required. My opponent fairly swiftly dropped the Sea Guard opposite my right flank and a firebase versus my left, which encouraged me to deploy my Beasts there. The Slaanesh units went down on my right, away from his best shooting. As you pretty much predicted Thomas, Archmage and BSB joined the Sea Guard, which meant I would push on my left flank and refuse the right.

So from left I had Flamers in a wood, then a gap to Beasts, gap to Plaguebearers in the middle (Furies in front in field). Next the Keeper, Daemonettes, Skillcannon, Horrors plus Herald, Seekers. My opponent from my left had Dragon Princes, Archers in front of ruins, RBT, Sisters of Avelorn, both Tiranocs, Phoenix Guard (with Mage). Then the Impassable, with Sea Guard , RBT and Frostheart (behind a very long hedge for cannon protection) on far right.

It might seem that my Beasts were a bit ountnumbered to be pushing forward on my left but these are Beasts of Nurgle we're talking about! They had the Flamers for support and presently the Plaguebearers too, not to mention the prospect of Ambushing Flesh Hounds. There was some risk of getting pinned by the PG and then Mindrazored but otherwise hunky dory.