Segway to Hell

[RE.Lee]

Looking great!

[SpellArcher]

Thanks dude!

These are of course the old 6th edition Juan Diaz models, which go for a bomb on Ebay incidentally. My Daemonettes are the same vintage:

[SpellArcher]

So the Daemons have just got back from their first tournament! I won't give too much away at this stage except to say that the winner was Melvin Campbell, a strong Wood Elf player known to anyone who plays tournaments in and around London. So, unsurprisingly, I didn't win! The event was well run by Steve Johnston, around 40 players which was enough for a varied and competitive event without being too anonymising. There were a lot of Legions (I played Undead) and End Times units (I faced souped-up Grimgor and one of the new Vermin Lords). Best painted was won by David Parker for a great O&G army featuring a stunning Arachnarok Spider converted to carry a ship full of goblins!

More to follow.

[SpellArcher]

Reading Warfare

So this was a 36-player event held as part of a larger wargaming and trading convention grounded in historicals. I believe I attended this once about 25 years ago! End Times lists and units were permitted but light comp was in place. Notably a single Look out Sir vs the big spells, a cap on magic dice and restrictions on the number of hard units that could be taken.

I got to the venue in good time on Saturday morning and at that point only it was cold, so I was glad of a cup of tea! Each table had a fairly basic green cloth on it which I personally prefer to more complex boards. The usual woods, hills, buildings etc were placed on top. There was plenty of space around the tables, very helpful. Although End Times was in play, most of the armies had unusual picks somewhere in them, things were not too maxed out.

I knew I would need to focus on the gaming, so sadly I do not have photos. I'm hoping I can take some from my next game against Thomas, planned for early December. Here's a shot of the army though:



Daemon Prince (General), Lvl4 Slaanesh, 75pt Gift, Chaos Armour.
Daemon Prince, Lvl 4 Tzeentch, 50pt Gift, 25pt Gift, C/Arm, Fly.
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift.

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician.
15 Daemonettes, Full Command, Eternal Flame.
10 Horrors

5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
5 Furies of Slaanesh
5 Seekers
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
1 Beast of Nurgle

First up, Skaven, with a rather large Rat-daemon in evidence...

[Galdor]

Looking forward to the reports/summaries! Were there many High Elf armies at the event and how did they get on?

[Prince of Spires]

Yes, don't keep us waiting too long...

Also, tea is always good. Especially early in the morning.

From your brief intro I get the idea that it was a light comp tournament but the attendants themselves decided to go for more fun lists instead of trying to get the most powerful list possible under the comp. Which sounds like a great environment to play in.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Looking forward to the reports/summaries! Were there many High Elf armies at the event and how did they get on?

Thanks dude! I believe there were no actual High Elf armies at the event after our own Finreir dropped with car issues. There were several elf legions.

Also, tea is always good. Especially early in the morning.

Popular in the Netherlands? I was shocked to discover that the world's biggest tea drinkers are actually the South Americans!

From your brief intro I get the idea that it was a light comp tournament but the attendants themselves decided to go for more fun lists instead of trying to get the most powerful list possible under the comp. Which sounds like a great environment to play in.

Yes to a fair extent Rod. I saw a few scary looking armies on the top tables but I seem to spend most of my tournaments around the middle. Still some hard units there but leavened with left-field picks.

[SpellArcher]

Game One - Skaven

Turbocharged Vermin Lord, Lvl4 Ruin
Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Lvl 4 Plague
BSB
Assassin

40 Stormvermin, FC, Storm Banner
40 Slaves, Champion, Musician
40 Slaves, Champion, Musician
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster

Hellpit Abomination
Hellpit Abomination

So an unsubtle army which would push forwards, intent on grinding me into the dirt. I would need to watch out especially for the Abominations with their potential 18" 360% charges. The Vermin Lord too was fast and had T6, W6 as compared to the 5's of the old school version. He retained of course Multiple Wounds D3. As per my pre-tourney analysis, I would need to avoid serious combat and pick stuff off with my magic. Like Terry Pratchett's Trolls, I believe my brain was slowed down a bit by the cold, so please forgive my uncertain recollections of this first game. It gets better, trust me!

My opponent deployed both Slave units in the middle. To their left (from my perspective) were the Stormvermin with characters, then an Abom. To their right were the Vermin Lord, then the other Abom. The Giant Rats were dotted around in support. I believe I had the Seekers and both DP's on my left, then Daemonettes, then Plaguebearers. The Beast was forwards in the middle and the Furies behind. On my right I had Horrors and Flamers.

As said I'm slightly hazy about events but on the right was able to Gateway off the Abomination facing me and did some damage to the Vermin Lord also. I managed to lose my Tzeentch units and my redirectors though. On the left I got the Daemonettes and Tzeentch DP into the other Abom, criminally forgetting my Banner of Eternal Flame which would have negated Regen! Consequently the Abom survived, failed a Break test and escaped my pursuit!

I made a fatal mistake in the middle, completely missing a diagonal charge from the Stormvermin past a house and into the flank of my Plaguebearers! Chances of holding were dashed when my opponent rang his bell and got the result that allowed all 40 of his Stormvermin to attack! He also cleaned up the Daemonettes and Tzeentch DP. I ran the Slaanesh DP into a corner and sacrificed the Seekers to keep him alive, managing to finish off the Vermin Lord with a magic missile. But it was a heavy defeat.

4-16

[Prince of Spires]

Ouch, that sounds painful. Do you think remembering the flaming banner would have made a difference in the outcome (besides netting the points for the abomb ofcourse)? What would have been needed to change the outcome of the battle? Was it just the mistakes you mentioned? Or was it also a tough list for you in general?

Also, tea is always good. Especially early in the morning.

Popular in the Netherlands? I was shocked to discover that the world's biggest tea drinkers are actually the South Americans!

We're a bit middle of the pack (you can always trust Wikipedia to have a list about pretty much anything: List of countries by tea consumption per capita). For me personally, yes. I'm a big tea drinker (though I don't think I manage the 7+kg the Turks manage per capita!). Few thing beat a quiet morning, bit of sun and a nice cup of tea.

You're a Pratchett fan? Great books in my opinion (though Trolls get smarter as they cool It's a kind of superconductivity...).

Rod

[Galdor]

Two Abombs is pretty nasty! I'm not sure how I'd deal with that if I came up against it. That's a shame about forgetting the flaming attacks. It's frustrating when that happens - I often forget important stuff like the re-roll of ward saves due to The Other Trickster's Shard , if it's any consolation.

[Prince of Spires]

Two Abombs is pretty nasty! I'm not sure how I'd deal with that if I came up against it

As a HE player? Rail-road them. I'm bound to have either eagles, reavers or both in my list. So use them to make the abombs go straight forward (if allowed under the tournament rules of course). If someone brings 2 abombs then it's deserved I think.

Other options, magic (with a loremaster there should be plenty of magic missiles to deal with at least one of them) or phoenix guard. They might not kill it, but they sure aren't going anywhere. Or a dragon of course. Few things a giant, firebreathing, M10 lizard can't deal with.

As for how to deal with them with SA list, not sure. It's not as fast as many HE lists, so getting close enough and dictating their movement will be harder.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Ouch, that sounds painful. Do you think remembering the flaming banner would have made a difference in the outcome (besides netting the points for the abomb ofcourse)? What would have been needed to change the outcome of the battle? Was it just the mistakes you mentioned? Or was it also a tough list for you in general?

Basically Rod, I have to stick to my general pre-tournament plan of avoiding straight-up fights and picking stuff off (with magic). I can't fight the Bell unit and I can't kill slaves fast enough to make contacting them viable. It was going reasonably well until I allowed the flank charge, after that it was damage limitation.

We're a bit middle of the pack (you can always trust Wikipedia to have a list about pretty much anything: List of countries by tea consumption per capita). For me personally, yes. I'm a big tea drinker (though I don't think I manage the 7+kg the Turks manage per capita!). Few thing beat a quiet morning, bit of sun and a nice cup of tea.

Coffee shops are big here but I would hazard the British are still fundamentally a tea-drinking nation. For example I often have a coffee out as a treat but at home the teapot is king!

You're a Pratchett fan? Great books in my opinion (though Trolls get smarter as they cool It's a kind of superconductivity...).

OK, I'm a reverse troll! My friends and I kind of grew up on Terry Pratchett. I bought The Colour of Magic because Dave Langford gave it a good review in White Dwarf, in the days when opinions were welcome there!

Two Abombs is pretty nasty! I'm not sure how I'd deal with that if I came up against it. That's a shame about forgetting the flaming attacks. It's frustrating when that happens - I often forget important stuff like the re-roll of ward saves due to The Other Trickster's Shard , if it's any consolation.

I often think that's the difference between decent players and great players Galdor, they don't forget these things like we do!

Double Abom was a bit scary (as were Skaven) in early 8th but by mid-edition everyone was loading up on Flaming shooting phases and fast stuff that could often kill them before they could strike. Gatewaying one off and killing the other with Flaming attacks was actually working well until I forgot about the Flaming Attacks!

Railroading is certainly one option, though as Rod infers some comps circumvent it by allowing the Abom to charge the railroader or otherwise move. I would look at shooting two or three wounds off and then running them over with your bus. You can also redirect them in the traditional way. It's easy to forget the 360% charges though, very dangerous.

[SpellArcher]

Horrors



When Daemon players choose their Core the major issue is, how to split between Plaguebearers and Horrors? Bloodletters are poorly regarded and Daemonettes, whilst playable, are a hard work unit. A common set-up is a medium-sized block of PB's and 2 x 10 of Tzeentch's finest and I'm beginning to see why. It's largely about Infernal Gateway.

Say you have a Lvl 4 or 2 x Lvl 2 on Tzeentch. You roll and if you don't get Gateway, you keep what you get, a generally useful mix of light damage and utility spells. This means you are guaranteed to achieve your premier spell on a Horror unit. The beauty of this is that Horrors don't roll on the Miscast table, instead taking a simple 2D6 S10 hits. Not only do you laugh this damage off, you also don't lose dice from the PD pool. If your Lord of Change or whatever rolls Gateway you keep it if the game 100% demands you have this spell. If not, you swap for the sig and retain a very high chance of getting Gateway on one of the Horror units anyway.

My list only has one unit of Horrors. This means that if my Daemon Prince rolls Gateway I am inclined to keep it, slightly sub-optimal. If he swaps for the sig my Horrors only have a 2-in-3 of getting the spell, not ideal. If the DP doesn't roll it, there is a 1-in-6 chance I miss the spell entirely. You can thus see one reason why my choice of 15 Daemonettes is not a popular one!

At this tournament I faced several armies like these Skaven. A few super-hard blocks I couldn't touch and some powerful single-model supports that I could. Lacking Skillcannon, Gateway was vital to taking these out. If I'd fought elves then, as against Thomas, the sig missile, Blue Fire could have been a valid alternative target. The Horrors are basically a fairly static 'shooting' unit. A determined enemy can often catch and kill them but their relative cheapness and their precious ranged damage potential make them a valuable part of the army.

[RE.Lee]

Horrors are looking good. I'm not a fan of the models themselves, but you've made them suitably wierd

Tough luck with the Skaven - that was quite an unusual army you faced. Verminlord? I take he was one of the ET ones? Double a-bombs are tough, though I've rarely had any luck with them. Might be the fact I was facing flaming Dwarf cannonballs most of the time ;P Other opponents seem to just feed them stuff.

Poland is 31st on the tea list! Makes sense since thats what I'm drinking right now (its rooibos actually, so not really tea... I think?)

[SpellArcher]

Horrors are looking good. I'm not a fan of the models themselves, but you've made them suitably wierd

Thanks RE. They're a mix of the original Kev Adams sculpts and the 2nd gen ones from the early 90's (which are technically not quite as good IMHO). I wanted bright colours for Tzeentch but not necessarily the traditional blue and yellow or pink. I figured both orange and turquoise are kind of mixed colours reflecting the god's rainbow tendencies. White was in as contrast and to link with my Slaanesh scheme. It's difficult to get a consistent overall look with Daemons!

Tough luck with the Skaven - that was quite an unusual army you faced. Verminlord? I take he was one of the ET ones? Double a-bombs are tough, though I've rarely had any luck with them. Might be the fact I was facing flaming Dwarf cannonballs most of the time ;P Other opponents seem to just feed them stuff.

Yes but I'm not sure which one, he came with one of the Ruin spells mandatory though. I feel double Abomination is unwise against a good player with a balanced army because he'll have counter(s) built in and know how to use them. At least one guy was doing really well with Stormfiends I noticed.

Poland is 31st on the tea list! Makes sense since thats what I'm drinking right now (its rooibos actually, so not really tea... I think?)

From memory...hervata? I roomed with a Polish guy once at a chess tournament in Kiev. It was horrifically cold, we drank a lot of it!

[RE.Lee]

Herbata - from latin "herba thea"

[SpellArcher]

Live and learn! Not much between a b and a v at the end of the day.



Game Two - Undead Legion

Ghoul King, Terrorgheist
Master Necromancer, Lvl4 Undeath, Abyssal Terror
Necromancer, Lvl 1 Vampires

40 Ghouls, Champion
20 Zombies, Std, Musician
20 Zombies, Std, Musician
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves

8 Crypt Horrors

Terrorgheist
Mortis Engine

This army was circus-themed! The Crypt Horrors were bears for example. Happily I was easily able to identify stuff, unlike vs the last circus -themed army I faced! In raw terms the list has two tough blocks in the Ghouls and Crypt Horrors that I need to think twice before engaging. It also has a trio of scary flyers. I didn't like the idea of the flying Ghoul King one bit and no army can afford to let two Terrorgheists strike at will. Where were my elf archers when I needed them!

The scenario was Meeting Engagement. Happily, my opponent would be the one deploying first. This was more important than my getting first turn I judged. He put down aggressively, most units on the 6" line. From left to right (my perspective) he had Wolves, Zombies (with Necromancer), Ghouls, Crypt Horrors, Zombies, Wolves. The single models formed a rough second line of (from left to right) Ghoul King, Abyssal Terror, Terrorgheist, Mortis Engine.

My key aim was to delay fighting the Ghouls and buy myself time to put wounds on the Terrorgheists (so weakening the Death Shrieks). Accordingly I deployed back a bit to deny any first turn charges. I had Flamers on my left, opposite the Wolves, then Seekers (Slaanesh DP behind) across from the Zombies. Next Horrors, opposite the Ghouls and then my Beast, facing the Crypt Horrors, with the Furies behind. Next the Plaguebearers opposite the Zombies, then Daemonettes, then Tzeentch DP facing Wolves.

As expected, my opponent won first turn and began to swing his battle line around so his blocks would eventually contact the Plaguebearers. On the left he screamed three wounds off the Flamers and then charged them with Wolves, which resulted in the Pyrocaster alone surviving on one wound. The Seekers charged the Zombies, killing plenty and assassinating the Necromancer before succumbing. A freshly raised Spirit Host intervened but the Pyrocaster went crazy, killing this and eventually the last of the Zombies too. Good lad!

On the right I advanced cautiously, fearful of long charges from the second line. The DP killed the Wolves and the Daemonettes made it into the Zombies but too late to make much impact.

In the centre I sacrificed the Furies to hamper the Ghouls and the Beast to slow down the Crypt Horrors, my foe conjuring up another unit of three. The Horrors Gatewayed four wounds off the unridden Terrorgheist of which one was healed but were then taken out by the Ghoul King. Both units of Crypt Horrors made long charges into the Plaguebearers and were joined by the half-strength Terrorgheist. This though, resulted in only one Crypt Horror model in contact at each end and the T/Gheist in the middle. Net result was not much damage to Nurgle's rotters and a dead Terrorgheist. Sadly, we then ran out of time. My Flesh Hounds failed to turn up and were counted as casualties!

10-10

[Mollesvinet]

Game 1

Tough luck. Apart from the character selection, his army looks very dull indeed.

How come you aimed infernal gateway at his abomination instead of his verminlord?

Fire would have really helped you out against that abomination, not only can it not regenerate but it also cannot come back to life after being destroyed.

A cannon would have been very useful here! Vermin lord, bell or abombs are all begging for it.

Finally, too bad about the central charge into your plaguebearers. Sounds like this mistake cost you the game. Too bad daemons can't flee, at least you could have had a second chance after reforming

[Mollesvinet]

Game 2:

Sounds like you had the upper hand except the time ran out. How do you think more time would have influenced the result? Did you feel that your opponent was wasting a lot of time, or did the game just go slowly for whatever reason?

Tough decision whether to charge zombies. Takes forever to kill and aren't worth many points.

Gateway on horrors sounds really good, no fear of miscast!

Again a cannon would be good, especially against his ridden terrorgheist. I do hate the cannon, but it is a central tool in the daemon list it seems.

It is a bit difficult to get an overview of the battle without any diagrams. I know it is time consuming, but maybe consider doing a diagram of at least deployment to help us get an overview.

In any case, thanks for the reports! Looking forward for the next ones

PS: You can always contact me if you need elven ranged support, I can swing by your next tournament to shoot those pesky terrorgheists!

[SpellArcher]

Thanks for dropping by again Thomas.

I made mistakes in the write-up. I now recall that the Daemonettes did eventually kill the Abomination but not before the Bell unit finished off the Plaguebearers and overran into their flank! Had I remembered Eternal Flame the Hellpit would have died sooner, freeing the Daemonettes. I realised the mistake when my foe came to roll for coming back to life and to his credit he waived the roll. This was probably correct play, as the Banner is 'always on'. It was too late to recalculate wounds inflicted etc but they should count as Flaming to deny him the roll. Had it been the 9th Age 'optional' banner he would have got that roll too!

I did Gateway the Vermin Lord and in fact he nearly died killing my Beast. We laughed at the time about the charmed life he was leading. Until the turn 6 Slicing Shards of course! Not being able to flee takes some getting used to, in one way it is less forgiving of mistakes. Overall though Daemonic Instability outweighs this, especially when you have Steadfast and especially re-rolls.

As you've experienced, I'm a slow player, I simply don't think very quickly. This opponent had never played Daemons before! Combine the two and we only played four turns, I don't think Meeting Engagement helped either. Contrast this with games one and five, where 6 turns were played no problem and game four, where we finished inside two hours. It also didn't help that my army forced me to 'dance' and avoid straight-up fights. Simply adding a unit of four Beasts would have changed that completely.

I'm sorry for the lack of diagrams but I've only just mastered the art of posting photos! At this stage it would be too time-consuming for me, RL is very demanding. It would be great if we could get some photos of our next game to accompany my report and clarify things. My last elf game vs a Terrorgheist it did not see turn 3!

[SpellArcher]

Plaguebearers



There's a reason these guys are in the vast majority of Daemon armies. They're just so damn tough. Having such a solid, reliable unit in Core is a major strength. -1 to be hit is very strong. T4 is appreciably better than T3 against the vast majority of attacks in Warhammer. But Regen simply being able to negate half the wounds you suffer, whether from Goblins or Vampire Lords is superb. Yes it doesn't work vs Flaming or KB but that's not a lot of things and hey, you still have the 5+ Ward.

Banner of Swiftness is a common pick on Plaguebearers. So far I am finding M4 to be workable, perhaps because my other troops are faster. Perhaps because they usually don't need to avoid combat. When I have (somewhat faster) Beasts available I'm quite happy with them as solid backup. S4 Poison is solid. PB's don't have quite enough Attacks to cause the damage that Beasts can but they can chip away at things. With the BSB they are kings of combat resolution.

In game one I asked too much of them. Game two they bounced a frontal attack from 11 Crypt Horrors and a Terrorgheist. Game three they killed an Arachnarok spider. Game four saw some real heroics. Game five they were sacrificed but did a job. They were the only unit in this army with any staying power and as such served as a crucial pivot to blunt the enemy's baddest stuff and shield my softer troops. I love 'em.

[Prince of Spires]

It sounds a bit like how I use PG in my list. Of course, PG are a bit a different beast in that they are special and not core (how expensive are plaguebearers?). But for me, PG bring a few things to a HE army which are just great to have. With high WS and a 4+ ward they just don't die. I often run a unit of 15, FC and razor banner. They are great for holding a flank or holding the line. And, they dish out pain to pretty much anything without a high armour save. Even when things go south, they can be relied on and they have on numerous occasions been the last unit standing.

It's a bit like having fast redirectors in your list (like an eagle), except that it doesn't die in a single round of combat. It always pays to have a unit on the table that your opponent can't really ignore but also can't just get rid of. I can believe you love having them in a list.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Core is an interesting one Rod. It's certainly true that having a solid infantry unit there is excellent. The main thing I think, is being able to fill Core and think 'I'm not taking sub-standard stuff'. Silver Helms for example, are very different to PB's but still fit well. PB's are 13pts each, not cheap but you can see what you're paying for. They are vulnerable to Initiative test spells and stuff like Convocation. But very durable vs most things in the game.

PG are an interesting comparison. I've never used them but they can certainly fill a similar role. The high WS does usually work out the same as the Nurgle -1 to be hit. The 4+ Ward is slightly better than 4+ Regen/5++ but T4 aces the 5+ AS. Offensively PG are better of course, except maybe vs T6+. Razor can be combined with PB's but only on the BSB and arguably Fencer's Blades keeping him (and via Regen the unit) alive is more important.

Some would say that the strengths we're using are too small. But I feel the troops are so hard that the units remain functional. I was going to go 24 PB's but eventually decided that 15 Daemonettes were more useful than 10 and that I could get away with 19 PB's. The enemy can hope to kill the unit but not quickly and the points saved on the extra five models should bear fruit elsewhere while the PB's are grinding away.

Up until now my blocking units have been White Lions or Eternal Guard say, who rely on Stubborn to hold the enemy up. But PB's or PG do the same by not dying, which seems preferable. Of course Lions have offensive advantages but other units (Beasts for example) can be drafted in alongside the sheer grindiness of the PB's or PG to cover that. Combine that durability with solid Ld and BSB re-rolls and these guys can take a huge amount of punishment, as we will see in game four.

[SpellArcher]

Game Three - Orcs and Goblins

Supergrimgor
Orc BSB
Lvl4 Orc Shaman, Dispel Scroll
Lvl4 Night Goblin Shaman, Scroll of Shielding
Night Goblin Bosses (3), Great Weapon
Goblin Wolf Bosses (2)

40 Orc Big'uns
40 Night Goblins, 2 Fanatics
40 Night Goblins, Netters

Arachnarok Spider
Arachnarok Spider

Another very dense army. Grimgor makes the Orcs extremely dangerous to engage. Fight the goblins and I risk getting stuck and charged by the orcs next turn or two. At eight wounds apiece the spiders are actually the soft points here, so I needed to take them out first.

My opponent deployed predictably and sensibly with the Orcs plus characters in the middle, flanked by the two Goblin units. The spiders in turn covered their flanks. I had Seekers and both Daemon Princes on the left, opposite an Arachnarok, together with the Horrors. In the centre was the Beast, with the Furies behind. I then had Daemonettes, Flamers and Plaguebearers on the right.

My memories of this game are a little hazy. Basically my opponent pushed forwards across the board. On the right (from my PoV) the spider began chewing through my Plaguebearers, aided by a goblin spell that nerfed my Poison. The Orcs were slowed down by the Beast. I charged the left spider with Seekers and Tzeentch DP, Gateway drawing the scroll.

I then managed to stop the nerf spell and the Plaguebearers went Poison-happy and killed the spider. The left spider failed a Stubborn Break test but outdistanced the pursuit. The Seekers were wiped out by Fanatics, destroying these in the process. The DP's began to munch the left goblins. The Orcs wheeled to threaten a charge which was blocked off by the Furies, as the goblins were finished off. We then ran out of time.

11-9.

My opponent was unhappy because as he pointed out, I'd failed to cut off Grimgor's charge into my General. I guess that might have swung it to a 12-8 the other way (massacres required +2000 VP under this scoring system). While agreeing that I needed to play faster, I pointed out that he did too, to his credit he agreed. Game three always seems to be a bit compressed for some reason.

[Prince of Spires]

Congrats on the win. The O&G list looks like something I'd love to put together (minus all the orc stuff, and with some more weird gobo stuff in there). Is it a fun list to play against?

Why did you deploy as you did? It reads like you were spaced fairly evenly across the board. Would having a weighted flank have been an option for instance?

Some last comment regarding the plaguebearers. I actually tend to run PG in smaller units then people generally do. I find that at 15 strong they still perform very well, without becoming a points sink. 15 strong effectively comes down to a virtual 30 wounds, with the 4+ ward. Which is a big unit for elves. I actually toyed with the idea of running them as a small 5 strong harassment unit under the last book. With min unit 10 that's out of the window of course. But I feel that having them as a small unit offers more tactical options. With a bigger unit they tend to dominate your playstyle and army list. Of course, as core plaguebearers have a smaller effect in this way. But I do think they can function in a similar fashion.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Congrats on the win. The O&G list looks like something I'd love to put together (minus all the orc stuff, and with some more weird gobo stuff in there). Is it a fun list to play against?

Why did you deploy as you did? It reads like you were spaced fairly evenly across the board. Would having a weighted flank have been an option for instance?

Sadly, I'd have to say no, it wasn't fun to play against. I guess you could say it was a clash of army styles but like the Skaven game, being unable to fight the main block and hence having to be very careful engaging the tarpit supports was frustrating. Maybe if I'd brought some harder units! To his credit my opponent did include the Arachnaroks. He actually had 2800pts because the comp gave him extra if he left war machines at home.

My set-up actually had the redirectors in the middle and the stronger units on the flanks to counter the Arachnaroks. A 'Cannae' deployment if you like!

Plaguebearers and Unit Sizes

I feel Rod, that it boils down to what the unit's job is. I could for example fill Core with 43-strong Plaguebearers, FC, Swiftness and it wouldn't be a stupid unit. This unit's job is grinding stuff into the dirt and points denial. The danger of course is that it either gets redirected the whole game or an opponent targets it with serious killing magic before combo-charging it. But in general, PB's are like Lions were under the old book. 10, 14, 20, 30 were all effective unit sizes.

I've faced PB's in 10's. I saw a 15 in the ETC list of a very strong player. 25 or 30 are more common perhaps, especially if the player wants to kill things with them because then you can Horde for more attacks and consider stuff like the locus that improves Poison. I went for 20 firstly because it looked better to me, secondly because it let me expand my Daemonette unit and lastly because this unit's job is to hold and win on static res.

The unit of 20 (with BSB) has the maximum +3 for ranks. Now it will often lose models, reducing that but sometimes it won't, these guys are hard to kill. In that case another 5 or 10 models added on behind isn't going to change much. If you intend to head straight for the enemy's best unit and fight a protracted grind you probably want those extra daemons. But my intention is to use this unit to deflect stuff or pin it in place until I can bring the points I've saved to bear elsewhere.

At the end of the day, it's Combined Arms. The principle is to build units for maximal immediate effectiveness and not include extra bodies in case the worst happens, something exemplified here:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584

This is for example, why you often see Beasts of Nurgle in a single rank of four as opposed to two ranks of three. The latter unit is incredibly hard to kill but you lose some attacks from the rear rank models. Beasts are so tough that the four remains durable and killy enough to function as a main combat unit. By omitting the last two Beasts you save 120pts to strengthen elsewhere. The problem with my army is that my other units aren't necessarily the best spend of these 'saved' points! But you see the idea hopefully.

Coming back to your PG, they are almost the apotheosis of this approach. Not only have you left out the fifth or sixth ranks, you've dropped the fourth as well. So you lose the final CR point of rank bonus but all of your models can attack, with re-rolls and they all benefit from that 45pt banner. The flipside is that you have even less margin for error, if something goes badly wrong for this unit, it'll go down quicker than one 20-strong. But if you play well enough, the payback could be huge.

[Prince of Spires]

Sounds pretty sensible to me. I agree that it very much depends on someone's approach to listbuilding and playstyle. In a more min-max style list you would probably go for bigger units. I tend to run my own version of combined arms / MMU (or sometimes ever a MSU list). During listbuilding I tend to trim of the fat of units as much as possible. All elements should contribute to the overall battle plan. And given the cost of elves, there isn't really any room to build in a safety margin. I want the smallest possible unit which is still able to do the job at hand.

After all, assuming everything goes as planned, I would rather have 6 SM in the flank of the unit I'm attacking then 5 PG standing around in the back of the unit waiting for things to go wrong. It fits better with my more aggressive playstyle I guess. The downside is of course that if things start going wrong and units get stuck on their own fighting 'fair' battles then it can all fall apart in a horrible and spectacular fashion.

I probably also run it since I like experimenting with a bit left field options. I've tried a prince on sundragon for instance, aiming for the same points optimization. But that was a bit a less successful experiment. It just lacks in punch compared to a stardragon. Though perhaps I should try again at some point. I've learned a bit since then.

So I know how you feel with spending the leftover points on the 'best' options. Some things are just too cool to leave at home.

It's been a while since I saw someone reference Seredain's blog. And since he updated it actually. We should poke him to get to post stuff again...

I like the idea of your Cannae deployment. It's an uncommon one I think. I'll try to remember it so I can use it at some point. One of the things you probably need to achieve in a Cannae style tactic is fast superiority on the flanks so you can start supporting your center. If it takes too long you run the risk of being picked apart by superior numbers. After all, you effectively split your army in three. With this in mind, do you think the delay you had with the right spider made a big difference?

Rod

[SpellArcher]

I want the smallest possible unit which is still able to do the job at hand.

Exactly Rod.

It's been a while since I saw someone reference Seredain's blog. And since he updated it actually. We should poke him to get to post stuff again...

He wrote some words about AoS of course. I believe his club is now playing a fair bit of 9th Age too.

I like the idea of your Cannae deployment. It's an uncommon one I think. I'll try to remember it so I can use it at some point. One of the things you probably need to achieve in a Cannae style tactic is fast superiority on the flanks so you can start supporting your center. If it takes too long you run the risk of being picked apart by superior numbers. After all, you effectively split your army in three. With this in mind, do you think the delay you had with the right spider made a big difference?

The classic opponent to use this against is Ogres. You don't want to fight the Gutstar head-on so you deny it a good target in the centre and go for the softer flanks. In the O&G game my opponent, perhaps mistakenly, used the speed of the spider to charge my Plaguebearers fairly early. Maybe he should have held his flanks back in the classic 'hollow wedge' formation.

[SpellArcher]

Game Four - Daemons

Bloodthirster, 25pt Gift
Nurgle Daemon Prince, Chaos Armour, Wings
Nurgle BSB, Regen locus, 50pt Gift
Khorne Herald, Frenzy locus

19 Bloodletters, FC, Eternal Flame
19 Plaguebearers, FC

3 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Bloodcrushers

3 Plague Drones
Skillcannon

So character-heavy like my army but much better in combat, with a succession of things I didn't really want to fight. I had one advantage though, my opponent had no magic at all while I had a ton of it. He did have the Skillcannon. The simplicity of both armies made for a fun game and hopefully easier to recall! Scenario was Blood and Glory but yielding 600 VP's instead of insta-win. My opponent had a Fortitude of five, mine was four!

From my perspective, the Skillcannon went down on the left with the Bloodthirster and the Daemon Prince. Then a house. In the centre (from left) Bloodletters (with Herald), Plaguebearers (with BSB) and Beasts. On the right Bloodcrushers and Drones. I had no cover against the cannon so stuck my Tzeentch DP down directly opposite. The 15" deployment from B&G gave him hopes of a first turn charge and if that were failed, he would go for gold with Gateway. As said, I didn't want to fight any of his units so ended up putting the Daemonettes on the left also, reasonably safe. Next the Plaguebearers. If I had to fight the Bloodthirster, these guys would at least make a grind of it. In the centre I had the Slaanesh DP, Horrors, then the Beast and the Furies. On my right Flamers and Seekers.

My opponent won first turn and steamed forwards, swinging the units on my right in towards the centre. I got a nice early break when the Skillcannon blew up. Taking full advantage my DP flew behind his enemy and Gatewayed his Nurgle counterpart off the board, no doubt Tzeentch was impressed! The Plaguebearers marched towards the Bloodthirster. I prepared to sacrifice redirectors in the centre and tried to make a nuisance of the Flamers and Seekers. Quite rightly though, my foe ignored the light troops and continued his army-wide wheel. The Bloodthirster charged my Nurgle block and started to grind them down. In the centre he killed the Furies but his units got slightly tangled up. By the time he'd charged the Bloodletters into my Beast I had both DP's set up to take the Bloodthirster down.

The PB's had managed a couple of wounds by then and I rolled double five for Winds. This should be a nothing roll in Daemon vs Daemon as all gain a 4+ Ward. I'd chosen the Chromatic Tome every game and mostly it just let me re-roll 2-4's on Winds. Here though I needed to kill the Thirster quickly, so I re-rolled the ten and got a seven. This would have no Reign of Chaos effect, simply leaving me with an average magic phase and a 5+ Thirster. This was my best move of the game. I forced through small Choir (as a Hex it can be cast into combat) and took a couple more wounds off, as well as negating the BT's ASF with ASL. I had the Tzeentch DP in his rear and having rolled up two extra attacks and ASF for Gifts, went first. His high Initiative prevented re-rolls but these proved unnecessary, the Daemon Prince finishing the job. With the loss of his General my enemy was Broken, it just remained to see if he could return the favour.

My Plaguebearers reformed and were charged by the only unit that could, the Drones, while his PB's went for my Horrors. I lost a PB but held after re-rolling a dreadful Daemonic Instability test into a good one. The Tzeentch DP flew behind his centre while my Nurgle BSB kept his unit in the fight again. Bloodletters finished off the Beast in my turn, reformed 180 degrees and charged the Tzeentch DP, while the Horrors went down to his PB's. Next turn the dice were with me, the Drones losing combat and vapourising spectacularly. He threw in his own PB's who finally finished the job, taking my unit down and breaking me. My DP though, continued his good work by killing the Khorne Herald and grinding his unit into the dust.

12-8

[Prince of Spires]

Not really that much to say about the last game. It reads like you played pretty well and out-thought your opponent. Civil wars tend to be bloody affairs since all the advantages you normally have are shared by the army across the table. And you often know the strengths and weaknesses of the army.

Rod