Segway to Hell

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SpellArcher
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Re: Segway to Hell

#61 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks Rod.

My opponent said as much, which was good of him. I had a little luck at first and capitalised on it. Perhaps he shouldn't have charged with the Bloodthirster but hey, that's what they do! At least it weakened my Plaguebearers to the point where they were ground down by other units. Losing them cost me any chances of a big win. Given they were my only combat-worthy unit though, perhaps that was never on the cards.

Daemon Princes

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So I had two of these guys. The dude above was my general, lvl4 Slaanesh and carried the Chromatic Tome. As discussed before the event his job was to stay out of trouble and support with his magic. He generally managed this, surviving every game. Aquiesence was cast a lot (particularly effective Game 5) and was generally useful. Choir's 12" range made things difficult because I didn't want to expose him to risk. Game 4 was the best use of it, weakening the Bloodthirster. The Tome was as mentioned useful every now and then for re-rolling 2-4's on Winds. Not only did that avoid bad effects from Reign, it gave a reliability to the magic phase which was my army's best weapon. I've already described the crucial re-roll of the 10 from Game 4. Jus goes to show you have to stop and think sometimes. Not sure I'd take the Tome with only one DP but it was a decent pick here.

Contrastingly, the Tzeentch DP's job was to kill things. I went for extra protection and killing power from the Gifts where I could. Lacking Skillcannon, Gateway was vital and did it's job well, taking out several powerful single models over the course of the tournament. Flight was of course brilliant, giving a touch more movement, the reliability of Swiftstride and the ability to charge over things. Combat was of course particularly effective vs infantry, where decent attacks combined with S6 Thunderstomp to wreak havoc. He died Game 1 but overall was very effective.

The meta was cannon-light which obviously helped my DP's. But the armies I did play had large, almost unkillable blocks which limited their ability to commit.
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Re: Segway to Hell

#62 Post by RE.Lee »

I have never faced Greater Daemons, but I what I read was about the most interesting case of changing meta in 8th. One day everybody is playing Nurgle armies with the GUO in charge, next its the the Giant Bird with the silly 2 swords combo, then its Slaneesh all over the place, casting those annoying spells of his. Funny how the Bloodthirster was the only one to be largely absent, despite getting a new model ;)

Good to hear yours served you well - do reward them appropriately ;)
cheers, Lee

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Re: Segway to Hell

#63 Post by SpellArcher »

No RE, these were Daemon Princes, like baby GD's! The models are the really old GD models, I felt these were too small to use as GD's.

:)

Apparently my opponent normally plays the popular Bloodthirster plus 4 x Horrors set-up but the comp said max 3x Tzeentch casters so (probably in an entirely appropriate fit of rage) he dropped magic completely! I guess he could have taken 2 x 10 plus 1 x 20 or somesuch.
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Re: Segway to Hell

#64 Post by RE.Lee »

#-o

Shows how little I know about Daemons (probably a good thing with the Inquisition everywhere :shock: ).
cheers, Lee

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Re: Segway to Hell

#65 Post by Prince of Spires »

Regarding luck, in my experience you often make your own luck. Of course, there will always be games when all you seem to be able to roll are 1's.

Just recently I had a game where my opponent charged my unit of PG, rolled high for impact hits (TK chariot unit, so 3D6 hits). Then in combat the PG missed with almost half their attacks (where normally I hit with 12+ out of 16 attacks) and ended up only doing 4 wounds. And then failed miserably on armour and ward saves. Results had them running and being caught by 1''. Nothing much you can do about it.

But (back to being lucky), what people consider being lucky is actually capitalizing on luck. It's rolling well and then using the outcome to your advantage. And the taking advantage part is actually more important then the rolling well in the first place. In a game like Warhammer, everything is (or at least should be if you're playing well) connected. Sometimes then you roll well and end up in a favorable position. If you do something with that, then people will remember that by the end of the game and point to it saying 'that was the lucky moment you had in the game where things swung one way'.

Or, to bring it back to my PG (first time they failed my miserably by the way...), it turned out that the chariot unit of my opponent was horribly out of position and needed two turns to get back in on the action. By that time I had taken care of most of the rest of his army and so he wasn't able to take advantage of his lucky rolls. So, in the after game chat, that didn't come up as an important event, while some lucky rolls on my part, with a lion chariot surviving a direct stonetrower hit (by my opponent rolling a 1 to wound), charging and killing a unit in combat in the next turn and overrunning to a lucky position was mentioned as a pivotal and 'lucky' event (not in a bad way by the way, just as one of those things that happen in a game).

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Re: Segway to Hell

#66 Post by SpellArcher »

RE.Lee wrote:Shows how little I know about Daemons
Daemon Princes are rarely seen because Greater Daemons are better and not much more expensive, it's easy to forget about DP's!

Yeah, I agree Rod. Luck is part of the game. If it comes your way, capitalise and move on. Guys sometimes comment that I take things like Cascading pretty calmly but what's the point in letting it affect you? Move on and see what you can salvage from the game.
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Re: Segway to Hell

#67 Post by Prince of Spires »

And, never think 'anything but a one!' ;)

Getting stuck in negative / pessimistic thinking doesn't help things. Stuff happens. If you let it affect you, then you'll only make things worse. You'll end up making rash decisions or simply throwing the game. And though you can't win a game of WH in one turn you can lose it in one. And even if you can't make things better, then at least you can make the game enjoyable for your opponent (and for yourself!).

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Re: Segway to Hell

#68 Post by teep »

+1

I also think that coming back from a bad play and/or bad luck has great merits. Due to careless placement I lost my 15 man strong bus with three characters turn 1 on the first game of a local tourney recently . Obviously, i wasn't exactly thrilled at first, but I had this nice opponent in front and a whole day of whfb ahead of me - deciding to stay positive saved the day for me and I played well in the next two matches because I didn't get stuck in the initial feelings of "poor me aka I f*ckin hate canons"...
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Re: Segway to Hell

#69 Post by SpellArcher »

I agree with the 'enjoyable' angle, it's not your opponent's fault the dice rolled that way.

It's probably also competitiveness. A big setback isn't necessarily 0-20.

Game Five - Skaven

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell
Warlord, Fellblade, HA, Sh
BSB
Plague Priest, Plague Furnace

40 Stormvermin, FC, Storm Banner, Doomflayer
4 x Rat Dart
40 Slaves
40 Slaves

40 Plague Monks, FC

Hell Pit Abomination
Doomwheel

So again, two blocks I calculated I just couldn't fight and two of Slaves which it would be too easy to get stuck on. The points I could go for were once again the Rares and that probably would rely on Gateway to a fair extent. Other than that it was avoidance and redirection. After winning game four I was doing better than I expected, with 37/80 pts. 3pts or more from this last game would constitute a decent final result I felt, given the weakness of my list. My opponent actually won Best Painted but for an O&G army played by a mate of his. These Skaven were nice too.

The battlefield featured a couple of woods fairly close to the halfway line, one left of centre, the other right of centre. From my perspective, my opponent deployed his Pestilens block on the left and then the Abomination behind the first wood. In the centre he had the Doomwheel, sandwiched between the Slave units. There was a small gap to the Stormvermin on the right, with of course the Bell Seer and the Warlord, Doomflayer trailing. The Rat Darts were dotted around in support. I had Slaanesh DP on the far left, then Daemonettes and then Horrors. Once again Beast and Furies were in the middle. On the right I had Plaguebearers, Flamers, Seekers and Tzeentch DP.

My opponent won first turn and simply rolled his line forward. On the right I got the Seekers and DP round the back of the Stormvermin, the former beating up the Doomflayer. The Plaguebearers sat pretty much on the baseline but were hammered by an early Dreaded 13th. I fed his block the Beast and managed to Gateway the Doomwheel off. The crunch came and my BSB ran out on his unit, which was charged and destroyed, the BSB himself went down to a spell.

Centre-left the Abomination ate the Horrors but a happy roll on Reign saw Khorne put four wounds on the Hellpit, which was finished off with magic. My Flesh Hounds came on behind his centre but were charged and locked in place by Slaves. The victorious Bell block tried to intervene but was redirected by Furies. On the left I ran the Daemonettes into the corner and danced the Slaanesh DP around the flank. He hit the Pestilens block with a solid succession of Aquiescence and Choir. Little damage was done but the net result was that they never reached the Daemonettes.

8-12
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Re: Segway to Hell

#70 Post by SpellArcher »

I don't think I could have got much more out of this game. Those blocks were always going to eat stuff and I feel I avoided fairly well and picked off what I could. Once again I feel that if I'd had a unit of Beasts, I could have taken on and potentially taken out one of the blocks. These kind of armies can be frustrating to play against but my opponent was a real gent which made the game enjoyable.

Beasts of Nurgle

Of course I did have one Beast. At 60pts he was a cheap and cheerful redirector and at one point should probably have killed a Vermin Lord! The Furies are faster and hence can be more flexible about their redirecting. The standard plan was to deploy the Beast fairly centrally and use him first, with the Furies as back-up. I had other cheap units (such as the Flamers) who could redirect at a pinch also.

In my two games against Thomas I used a unit of six. I've fought against this unit with various armies and the only time I felt able to engage it was with World Dragon Swordmasters. It is just such a tank, crazy hard to kill and with a huge amount of poisoned attacks. To his credit Thomas actually managed to kill this unit twice (though the second time was a bit lucky!). Back it up with Drones or even a second such unit (I've faced this!) and it's truly intimidating.

That said, I'm considering a unit of four for my next game. The six usually run 3x2. Each Beast has d6+1 attacks but because Supporting Attacks are capped at 3 some of these are lost. The four run in a single rank so avoid this, as well as not losing any potential Stomps. This also makes a wider screen for my Daemon Prince versus cannon fire. Because the six are so tough, enemy often avoid them. The four are more likely to be engaged but remain very durable. It's really hard to put wounds on them and they have sixteen of these. Now I just have to lay my hands on the real models!
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Re: Segway to Hell

#71 Post by Prince of Spires »

The inability of the list to deal with bigger blocks does sound like a shortcoming of the list. Which becomes more apparent I think when fighting armies which mainly consist of blocks, such as skaven. It's a bit the luck of the draw if you then run into such lists. And you seem to have drawn several in this tournament.

Adding some beasts of nurgle sounds like it would change things up in this regard. High number of attacks and unlikely to take many wounds in return is what you need (or could use at least). What would you drop from the list to make room for them. And would you consider running four in 2 blocks of 2 instead of 1 of 4? It adds a bit of flexibility and a drop (which is both good and bad of course). But it perhaps also makes them a bit more vulnerable to being picked off and makes them a juicier target to charge (individually).

I guess in a tournament setting responding well to setbacks is even more important then in pick-up games. Already in a tournament you can't just say 'why don't we just start over' after your general cascaded into the warp spell one turn one and half your army fled off the board as a consequence. But also because the games aren't stand-alone. In a tournament, finishing 15-5 (or even 19-1) instead of 20-0 in one of the games has a direct influence on your final ranking. So just giving up and throwing the game is always the worst option you have. Even if the other option is simply running away from all fights for the remaining 5 turns of the game.

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Re: Segway to Hell

#72 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:The inability of the list to deal with bigger blocks does sound like a shortcoming of the list. Which becomes more apparent I think when fighting armies which mainly consist of blocks, such as skaven. It's a bit the luck of the draw if you then run into such lists. And you seem to have drawn several in this tournament.
If we consider the Daemon army I fought in game four, that could certainly have taken on these Skaven blocks, it had not just the infantry but also Monstrous support and powerful Lords. I was just about able to fight these Daemons with my list but only with some very crafty deployment. There is such a gulf between my list and the Skaven lists that these games pretty much turn into me running and picking stuff off with magic.
Prince of Spires wrote: Adding some beasts of nurgle sounds like it would change things up in this regard. High number of attacks and unlikely to take many wounds in return is what you need (or could use at least). What would you drop from the list to make room for them. And would you consider running four in 2 blocks of 2 instead of 1 of 4? It adds a bit of flexibility and a drop (which is both good and bad of course). But it perhaps also makes them a bit more vulnerable to being picked off and makes them a juicier target to charge (individually).
Yes Rod, Beasts can be put into the front of most things and hold because they are so tough and dish out so many Poisoned attacks, so combat res is not the issue for them that it is for Treekin for example. If I can then throw in the Daemon Prince to deal with characters or armour (or for Thunderstomp) then I'm on to something. I would drop the Tzeentch DP. He did pretty well considering but he was a bit of a stop-gap solution to a pressing problem (how to make magic a real weapon and introduce a fast combat commando without risking my general). I would rather run a 'medium' magic phase and boost my ability to stand and fight.

Single Beasts are popular because at 60pts they are a fairly cheap redirector and sometimes surprise an enemy in combat. As mentioned, six are brutal and four are very functional. Three are slightly less popular because if you lose one their ability to engage units goes down. Two Beasts just don't have enough attacks to stand and trade with most units, while being more of a loss than a lone dude. That said, there may be a way of using them that works really well, I don't know. I'm going to try the four because it fits my MMU philosophy and will adjust if necessary.
Prince of Spires wrote: I guess in a tournament setting responding well to setbacks is even more important then in pick-up games. Already in a tournament you can't just say 'why don't we just start over' after your general cascaded into the warp spell one turn one and half your army fled off the board as a consequence. But also because the games aren't stand-alone. In a tournament, finishing 15-5 (or even 19-1) instead of 20-0 in one of the games has a direct influence on your final ranking. So just giving up and throwing the game is always the worst option you have. Even if the other option is simply running away from all fights for the remaining 5 turns of the game.
I agree, though I once had a tourney game where my opponent suggested we ignore an unlucky failed Panic test that would have seen my bunker flee the field! I felt a bit uncomfortable about it but accepted and lost anyway! Though we did have a better game for it. You sometimes see things in ETC games (and now and again other events) like double cornering agreed as a draw or players simply hiding their whole army with no attempt to kill anything. I try to score as many points from a game as I can, though I also try to avoid 'non-games'.
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Re: Segway to Hell

#73 Post by SpellArcher »

What Santa brought...

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Re: Segway to Hell

#74 Post by RE.Lee »

Grandfather Nurg.. I mean Santa has been generous with his gifts, I see. May they serve you well. ;)

Four is the sweet spot, gamewise, I've heard. Pity its 4 identical models - no minor conversions in mind?
cheers, Lee

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Re: Segway to Hell

#75 Post by Prince of Spires »

Yes, it looks like you somehow pleased the chaos gods during the past year. :) Where are the models from?

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Re: Segway to Hell

#76 Post by SpellArcher »

RE.Lee wrote:Four is the sweet spot, gamewise
I certainly hope so RE, that's what the list seems to call for.
RE.Lee wrote:Pity its 4 identical models - no minor conversions in mind?
Having come from an era of identical models I'm not that worried about variation here. A little would be nice but just cleaning and sticking the damn Finecast together was a bit of a challenge! I've done so much compulsory conversion work, see here for example:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... &start=150

...that I'm not inclined to do what I don't have to! The models used to be sold on bigger bases and they only just rank up. They are of course the official and current GW model. Funnily enough I'd never seen them in the flesh before, people seem to hate them. My attitude is, they are Beasts of Nurgle, they should look disgusting! Most opponents have used the Forgeworld Plague Toad models, with some bringing the two varieties of really old Beast model.
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Re: Segway to Hell

#77 Post by SpellArcher »

So it begins...

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Re: Segway to Hell

#78 Post by Nicene »

What is that thing?
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Re: Segway to Hell

#79 Post by SpellArcher »

It's an undercoated Beast with bizarre lighting!

:)
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Re: Segway to Hell

#80 Post by Prince of Spires »

Haha, thanks for the explanation. Like Nicene I couldn't tell what it was (besides 'horrendous' looking...)

Looking forward to seeing some paint on it. Do you find that chaos models are faster to paint then Elves?

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Re: Segway to Hell

#81 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Do you find that chaos models are faster to paint then Elves?
In general Rod, my strengths are competent (not spectacular) conversions, accuracy and colour scheme (within reason). I like painting my elves because I can do the details, large areas of flat model are a challenge for me. Maybe the Daemons have been faster, I went through the Plaguebearers rapidly once I'd cracked my test model. I'm a little dissatisfied with the overall coherance of the army but maybe once the Beasts and the project after them are done this will rectify itself.
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Re: Segway to Hell

#82 Post by SpellArcher »

Some paint applied:

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Re: Segway to Hell

#83 Post by Prince of Spires »

still tough to make out which part of the model does what ;) Though perhaps that's just the idea of chaos...

Where did the name of your army blog actually come from?

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Re: Segway to Hell

#84 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote: Where did the name of your army blog actually come from?
Skillcannon have been unfavourably compared to the Segway Rod. Plus there's the song Highway to Hell by AC/DC.

:)
Prince of Spires wrote:still tough to make out which part of the model does what Though perhaps that's just the idea of chaos...
The lack of a clear face doesn't help. Treekin have the same problem. We'll see what the ongoing paint job can do...

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Re: Segway to Hell

#85 Post by SpellArcher »

First Beast finished:

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Our first snow for three years!

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Re: Segway to Hell

#86 Post by Prince of Spires »

Snow! Same here (though there isn't really any snow here). But at least winter has arrived. After having had 14 degree for Christmas it's long overdue.

As for the model it's looking good. Not very high in contrast. But nice and nurgly. The base is a bit boring perhaps.

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Re: Segway to Hell

#87 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Snow! Same here (though there isn't really any snow here). But at least winter has arrived. After having had 14 degree for Christmas it's long overdue.
-3 here tonight but dry. I think we're back to the 10 degree 'long autumn' weather soon.
Prince of Spires wrote:As for the model it's looking good. Not very high in contrast. But nice and nurgly. The base is a bit boring perhaps.
Thanks Rod. I've a better camera now but it's still not wonderful. Even so you're right, it's Nurgle, so messy and slimy are the order of the day! It looks quite serviceable in the flesh. I've never been tempted by more complex basing, I find the models themselves enough of a challenge!
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Re: Segway to Hell

#88 Post by SpellArcher »

For further Beasts of Nurgle progress, please see this thread:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69648

Fighting Talk

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl 4 Slaanesh, 50pt Gift, 25pt Gift
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 1 Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 50pt Gift

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
14 Daemonettes, Eternal Flame, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Standard of Discipline

4 Beasts of Nurgle
5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies, Slaanesh
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

So I am considering playing a one-day tournament next month at 2500pts. Happily, it is being played at 25% Lords and Heroes and no End Times, which I rather like. It will use Tally Comp, so Daemons for example start at a score of -2, which is then adjusted for 'hard' or 'soft' picks. The above list comes in at -3. It gains +1 for each of Keeper and Daemonettes but loses for Beasts, Cannon and Nurgle BSB. This -3 is then deducted from my final tournament points (20 points being available for each of three games). Maximum adjustment is +10 for very friendly lists, there is no minimum score!

Given that my Beasts are almost painted and I have a Skullcannon conversion in the pipeline, I'm considering a more aggressive approach than the magic focus of my last event. The Keeper is more powerful and probably better value than my Daemon Prince, though Chaos Armour helps the DP against low strength attacks, especially archery. I expect the loading-up of the Horrors to be vaguely useful but mostly this is to fill up Core.

The other change is the Herald of Slaanesh. She will almost always default her gift to Ogre Blade. This gives her 4 S6 AP attacks at WS7 with ASF. Nice. The catch is, she's rather vulnerable to return attacks with only T3 and 2 wounds. She has the standard 5+ Ward of course and WS7/ASF will limit the amount of hits she takes. But the general idea is simply to make those first round attacks count, supported by the now ASF-sporting unit. At worst the initial damage should at least ensure the unit doesn't get swept away.

14 Daemonettes is a bit light for the above unit. But without the Tzeentch Daemon Prince I expect to be casting mostly Slaanesh spells, which will raise new models every now and then. Being a wizard, the Herald gives me an extra one of these, improving my selection. She also maintains my four Channels, which come in handy. I lose reliable access to Infernal Gateway but I have the cannon and increased combat power.

Comments welcome!
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Re: Segway to Hell

#89 Post by Orchaldor »

Hmm, I don't claim to know a vast amount about those warped monstrosities called Daemons - but it looks to me that you are going for a nice blend of slow but tough anvil units alongside fast but fragile killy units, backed by useful ranged threats.

Two questions come to mind:

1. How would you look to take on a gunline army who is prepared to sit back and shoot the **** out of your fragile stuff, ignoring the slower, more durable units? I assume that your Keeper would be quite wary of cannon fire too, and therefore be much more restricted in his/her influence? That said, would the comp make war machine-heavy lists unattractive?

2. Are you confident in being able to deal with heavy cavalry? I ask because a lot of your units are fairly small, giving cavalry the chance to break a unit in one turn, thus avoiding rubber lance syndrome. The herald with Ogre Blade looks nasty, but can the rest of the unit back it up against a heavily armoured foe before the return attacks?
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Re: Segway to Hell

#90 Post by Prince of Spires »

Interesting comp system. Glad to see some people are choosing to ignore the madness that was the End Times and simply play a normal game (there still isn't that much wrong with 8th in my opinion...). It feels reasonably fair, though it comes down to how they decide on what's a friendly and what's a hard choice.

The list is quite a change from the previous magic heavy list. It's interesting to see how it goes. It looks more aggressive. How do you find switching play styles works for you? I tend to run fairly agressive, combat focused lists normally. Consquently, running a more defensive, magic oriented list is hard for me. It takes patience to run a defensive, avoidance list.

I think it still has enough ranged threat to dominate parts of the battlefield. Pure gunlines and lists that can ignore your ranged threats will be tough. But those will probably be a minority. And if you can play the hammer + anvil tactics I think work with this list then you can do fairly well I think.

Are you planning on getting any practice games in?

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
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