Segway to Hell

[Prince of Spires]

Interesting HE list. The two chariots are unusual.

The main worry (as usual with HE, especially these kinds of lists) is getting charged by multiple units. BotWD is definitely a worry, but it's only on one unit (or the BSB), so it can be dealt with. Even without the banner, you don't want to get charged by the PG and one of the support units (DPs, chariots or frosty), let alone by more then one of them.

The main worry for me about that HE list are the PG. They are the part that will allow the rest of the list to combine their forces. It will hold parts of your army where your opponent wants it to or slow down crucial parts of your army. And, they are an excellent receiver for buffs. No razor banner on them normally hurts, but less so here since the lack of armour for the deamons. Mindrazored they are a nightmare, but even with wildform they carve through stuff.

Given deployment, I would indeed try to stay away from the PG and the LSG and take out the other parts piecemeal. The other units are small and slow enough (apart from the frosty) to be able to do so effectively I think.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Turn One

Daemons

I won this. The Flamers sat in their wood, while the Beasts advanced. I take your points Rod but Beasts are very strong, so I'm not sure even being combo-charged by two chariots and the Phoenix Guard would have turned out badly, especially as I had BSB in range and my opponent didn't. But why take the risk? Instead I left the PG a very long charge and the Beasts a more makeable one on the Sisters to give my opponent something to think about. The Plaguebearers trudged up in support. On the right I hung back, except for pushing the Seekers up into strike range of the RBT.

Magic saw Reign of Chaos give my whole army a 4+ Ward save, nice! I believe I actually drew the scroll with Aquiescence on the Frostheart, my opponent being keen to get it forward. This after another spell had been stopped. Shooting achieved nothing.

High Elves

My opponent advanced the Dragon Princes on my left, being careful to get past the charge arc of the Beasts. The rest of that flank held station. The Sea Guard edged forwards to shoot the Seekers, while the Frostheart bore down on my right, still protected by the prodigious hedge.

Magic saw Withering on the Beasts dispelled but Miasma went through on the Seekers, reducing their movement by 3. They were then shot down to two models. Good rolling on my left saw one of the Beasts removed.


Turn Two

Daemons

This started well, with my Flesh Hounds coming on behind the Sisters. I moved the Flamers up to redirect the DP's and the Beasts past the charge arc of the PG, easy charges now on for them. The Plaguebearers followed in their wake. On the right the Miasma'd Seekers failed a charge on the RBT, I kind of wanted them to take the Sea Guard shooting instead of my other units. The Herald hid in a house, while his Horror bodyguard backed away from the Phoenix.

Reign of Chaos came up trumps, Slaanesh killing five Archers and Panicking them back into the ruins. Bolt of Change on the Frostheart was dispelled but Aquiescence went through, to the relief of the Horrors! The Flamers shot a DP off. Best of all, the Skillcannon blew up a chariot, Panicking the nearby PG back to their baseline!

High Elves

The DP's charged the Flamers, while the surviving chariot went into the Beasts solo, perhaps hoping to at least pin them briefly. The Archers rallied in the ruins as did the PG on the baseline. The Sisters turned to face the Flesh Hounds. The Phoenix thought better of a Random Movement D6 attempt on the house and fluttered around.

Withering was again dispelled, with Pendulum on the Keeper doing nothing. The Sisters shot two models off the Flesh Hounds, while the Seekers were wiped out on the right. The DP's destroyed the Flamers, while the Beasts ate the Tiranoc.



But sadly, that was all we had time for! Counting up, my opponent led by 230 (Flamers, Seekers) to 140 (Chariots) but by the scoring system this was a draw. The TO very generously gave us two bonus points each for starting so late!

12-12

[Prince of Spires]

Both the TO and your opponent sound like great guys, letting you get at least part of the game in. In the end, that should be the aim of a tournament, playing games of WH. So good on them

From your battle report it sounds like you were ahead, not in terms of points, but as far as positioning goes. You managed to split up parts of his force, which makes it difficult for him to deal with your troops. I think that if you would have had two more turns you would have gotten a large victory out of the game (dice-willing of course...).

As for PG, in my experience people tend to underestimate their damage output and the amount of damage they can do to them. Even in a good scenario you will kill 1 PG for every 4 attacks you direct at them. And, they are one of the best receivers of buffs in the HE army. You do not want to get into combat with them in your opponents turn if he has Mindrazor and Wildform and you don't have a scroll. Your opponent will get at least one of those cast and probably slap you with a withering in the process as well. The only saving grace would be that your opponent didn't also have pit.

Best case scenario for the HE player: he gets his PG and DP's in combat with your beasts (on his turn) and rolls well for winds. You then face the choice in the magic phase of having S5, T4 PG, -D3 T beasts, S9 PG (or DP's) and on top of this your BSB is running the risk of getting pendulumed. In combat both the PG and the DP's will hit with most of their attacks. Any of the 3 spells going off means that he will also wound with most of the attacks. The end result is pretty much no more beasts (or whatever other unit they run into).

Rod

[SpellArcher]

From your battle report it sounds like you were ahead, not in terms of points, but as far as positioning goes. You managed to split up parts of his force, which makes it difficult for him to deal with your troops. I think that if you would have had two more turns you would have gotten a large victory out of the game (dice-willing of course...).

That's what I thought Rod but the more I reflect on it, the more I feel Thomas was right and that a big win would have eluded me. From the photo I think I charge the Sisters with the Beasts. They Flee and the Beasts redirect into the RBT, kill it, then reform. I move Plaguebearers, M10 Keeper and Furies over in support. The Flesh Hounds charge and kill the Sisters. Next turn the PG charge and kill the Flesh Hounds, the DP's arrive and the Sea Guard begin their long trudge to the action. Maybe some kind of medium win.

Best case scenario for the HE player

This is the thing though Rod, it was a messy, in-game scenario. The DP's are busy clearing my Flamers left of picture. If I'm pushing the Beasts up fast, I six-dice Aquiescence on the PG. 25% chance that stops them charging, 75% he scrolls it. Miscast risk to my Keeper. If he scrolls, the PG need a 7 or 8 to make it in, about 50%. Both chariots probably make it. If no PG, the chariots-Beasts combat sticks, even with 6-diced Withering (Miscast risk). I then have the whip hand in my turn.

Different scenario if the PG get in (about 3 in 8 chance). Assume he 6-dices Withering (Miscast Risk). The chariots kill one 4-wound Beast, the PG another. Beasts kill the Mage in the PG and probably another wound. Another Beast probably dies from re-rolled Instability. Net result, I've killed the 145pt Mage, the 240pt Beasts will probably be wiped out next turn. Can I get Plaguebearer charge in next round? If yes, I'm on top. If no, HE's are. Has either lvl4 blown himself up? Messy and inconclusive. Why take the risk when I can do what I did instead?

[Prince of Spires]

My PG comment was more a pre-battle thought (I was a bit slow in responding...). In that HE list, the PG block is one of the pivots of the army. It's there to fight light to medium units, hold strong stuff to allow combo charges, provide ranks (even if it's only 3) and get buffed by the magic.

I think you dealt with it in a correct way (though you did get a bit lucky with the panic). You got it in such a position that it was relatively isolated / unsupported by other units. Your opponent should probably have kept a tighter battleline and try to dictate the battle more instead of only reacting to you and handing you units one by one.

It's hard to say by turn two if something would have turned out a small win, win or big win. I think you were in a good position and though you were behind in points you had the upper hand. It's then down to dice, exact positioning (is something 7.9'' or 8.1'' away for instance) and a lot of choices from both players in between. A lack in your list perhaps is that it's on the slow side with not a lot of ways to collect the last few points. Which makes turning a small victory into a massacre hard if your opponent decided to preserve points.

Small point for instance would have been Beast charge Sisters. Sisters flee, Beast redirect (already a LD roll) into the RBT. Going from the picture, the Sisters end up slightly behind the RBT. You could line up the Beasts on the RBT in such a way that an overrun would take them into the Sisters (again, depending on a dice roll for both flee and overrun distance). But it's hard to say if this would have played out or not.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Your opponent should probably have kept a tighter battleline and try to dictate the battle more instead of only reacting to you and handing you units one by one.

I'm always happy when I see a Horde go down as one of the first deployment drops, especially on a flank. This often lets you gang up on the other flank before the Horde can intervene. On the other hand I guess it can be hard to deploy stuff and still leave gaps big enough for a Horde to fit into, at best it's going to telegraph your intentions. Here my opponent's characters were the final drop and I felt World Dragon should have gone in the PG. I then don't think I can take that unit on, especially with the threat of Mindrazor. I can try to redirect it, then slip the Beasts past but it's risky. Or I can pull back on the left and attack on the right but the Phoenix complicates that. Either way things become more difficult.

A lack in your list perhaps is that it's on the slow side with not a lot of ways to collect the last few points. Which makes turning a small victory into a massacre hard if your opponent decided to preserve points.

I think if the HE player keeps his characters in the World Dragon unit Daemons should never win this match-up big. I will return to your point, which is an interesting one, later Rod!




Flesh Hounds

As mentioned previously, I found these guys of limited use against the big block lists I faced at Reading but here my enemies had more units. Very helpfully, the Hounds came on turn two in all three games here. This was great not just from a competitive point of view but also as a test. If they couldn't shine under these conditions, they were for the chop! Happily, they passed this test with flying colours.

Of course this first game didn't last long enough to yield a reward in terms of VP's. But the position at the end of turn two was, as discussed, fairly juicy with the dogs poised to cause mischief. In game two they intervened in the crucial combat, probably saving it. In game three they caused havoc in the enemy backlines.

Next time they might not come on so quickly, so testing will continue. But it's pleasing that at least under favourable circumstances they definitely work well. Ambushers should be an effective tactical element in a combined arms list and the Flesh Hounds, with two wounds and two attacks per model, as well as other advantages, are pretty robust.

[Prince of Spires]

A lack in your list perhaps is that it's on the slow side with not a lot of ways to collect the last few points. Which makes turning a small victory into a massacre hard if your opponent decided to preserve points.

I think if the HE player keeps his characters in the World Dragon unit Daemons should never win this match-up big. I will return to your point, which is an interesting one, later Rod!

Nice cliffhanger...

In general, deployment wise (going from your description of course), I think I would have (as HE player) dropped the LSG on one of the sides of the impassible terrain in the centre. They're slow infantry and (given the unit size) intended to either shoot or fight stuff with characters in it. You need the unit centrally in your battleline. And placing it centrally, it leaves your opponent guessing. You can either deploy the rest around the unit going for a central deployment, use it as the edge of your line and weigh a flank or even leave it stranded on the 'wrong' side, weigh the other flank and walk over to the heavy flank in your T1. It gives more options, keeps a tighter line and leaves your opponent guessing longer.

You make some good points about the flesh hounds. Ambushing can be a bit tricky if they don't show up. But they offer a nice addition to your army. And it's a way to deal with some distant shooting which could otherwise dictate the game for you.

Looking forward to the next report

Rod

[SpellArcher]

You need the unit centrally in your battleline.

Exactly Rod. Deploy centrally, insert World Dragon, push forwards. Make life difficult for the Daemon player.

Ambushing can be a bit tricky if they don't show up.

It's a risk but not having a counter to safe enemy baseline units is more of one. Be interesting to have some games vs war machines where the Hounds come on turn three.

Looking forward to the next report

Thank you. So...


Like a Firework Display
Game Two - Orcs and Goblins

Orc Warlord, Boar, 4+ Ward, ASF Sword, Shield
Goblin Warlord, Wolf, Light Armour, Spear, Shield
Goblin Warlord, Wolf, Light Armour, Spear, Shield

Savage Orc BSB, Boar, stuff
Savage Orc Big Boss, Boar, stuff
Goblin Big Boss, Great Weapon
Goblin Big Boss, Great Weapon

50 Night Goblins, FC, 3 Fanatics
50 Night Goblins, FC, 3 Fanatics
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician

12 Savage Orc Boar Boy Big'uns (try saying that when drunk!)
Wolf Chariot
Wolf Chariot

Rock Lobber
Doom Diver
Doom Diver
Mangler Squig
Mangler Squig

Comp -1

Thoughts on this list and the match-up welcome.

[Prince of Spires]

It's a risk but not having a counter to safe enemy baseline units is more of one. Be interesting to have some games vs war machines where the Hounds come on turn three.

I think with your list they're worth the risk. An improvement could be to take two units of them. More chance that at least one shows up when you want it. There are no points in your list for doing so of course.

The O&G list is interesting. It's still on my todo list to start a goblin army...

I'm assuming all the mounted characters go into one or both of the wolf rider units. The manglers and fanatics can/will cause you pain, especially if your opponent uses them right. You don't have very good ways of dealing with them, especially in this number.

The doomdivers on the other hand are less of a worry. Less effective since you're lacking armour in your army.

It's a tough list to formulate a plan against. It's too symmetrical for that. The main thing to take advantage of perhaps is the overall low LD. Take out the characters when you can (they provide significant LD benefits to a goblin army), cause as many LD/panic tests. And with 3 blocks and a couple of not very fast other items, see if you can stall parts of it.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

I think with your list they're worth the risk. An improvement could be to take two units of them. More chance that at least one shows up when you want it. There are no points in your list for doing so of course.

Good point. Where you do see two units is usually in MSU lists that lack a Greater Daemon. That's where the points come from. I have the Seekers and Furies with a bit of reach but it's less ideal.

The manglers and fanatics can/will cause you pain, especially if your opponent uses them right. You don't have very good ways of dealing with them, especially in this number.

I'm not sure I agree Rod. Both cannon and Flamers are relevant here and I have useful magic missiles. As an elf player I dreaded those Impact Hits etc but when everything has either a 4+ Regen or 5+ Ward plus often T4 or 5, they are less scary.

The doomdivers on the other hand are less of a worry. Less effective since you're lacking armour in your army.

In general yes but the Skillcannon has 3+ armour, T5 and 4 wounds, a good (if loseable) target. The other danger is for all war machine fire to target the Keeper.

It's a tough list to formulate a plan against. It's too symmetrical for that. The main thing to take advantage of perhaps is the overall low LD. Take out the characters when you can (they provide significant LD benefits to a goblin army), cause as many LD/panic tests. And with 3 blocks and a couple of not very fast other items, see if you can stall parts of it.

As usual I was hoping to adopt this cautious, methodical approach. You'll see how that turned out Rod!



The most striking thing about this list is the complete lack of magic. This gave my opponent comp bonuses but was a definite handicap and I rate this match-up a +1 accordingly. In general I want to neutralise the Manglers and Fanatics, take out the war machines, then combo-charge the Boar Bus.


Pre-game and Deployment

Keeper: Acquiescence, Pavane, Hysterical Frenzy, Phantasmagoria
Herald: Blue Fire, Treason
Horrors: Bolt of Change

Keeper: Lash of Despair
BSB: Fencer's Blades
Herald: Sword of Might

Acquiesence is always useful, here primarily against the bus. However, I would miss Caco vs this unit. I had a couple of Magic Missiles but no Gateway again. Treason was interesting, it can really shine against low Ld armies. Apart from the Bus I anticipated little trouble in combat, so went for the Lash, not sure this was the right move though, this is one game where a second Gift on my Lord would have been helpful. The other Gifts were default picks.



So here we see the right side of deployment. My opponent has a chariot to the right of his hill. On the hill itself is the Rock Lobber and less obviously, a Doom Diver. Behind the hill are one unit of Wolf Riders and a Goblin Lord. To the left, a deep column of Night Goblins (with Great Weapon Hero). Next a Mangler and another chariot. On the baseline the second Doom Diver and a bit to the left, the second Goblin Lord. The second Mangler is visible far left.

On my right are the Seekers, their job was to neutralise the chariot, then either charge the Rock Lobber or ride around the back of the hill. The Tzeentch units are deployed forwards to counter the Manglers/Chariots with shooting and Magic Missiles. Behind is the Skillcannon with a good field of fire. Just visible on the left are the Plaguebearers (I believe the Furies are further left and behind, out of shot). These are deployed back to protect them until the Manglers are dealt with.



In this photo you can see the second Mangler from the last shot, to the right. Then a wood, to the left of which is the second Night Goblin block (and GW Hero). Then the boar riders with the three Orc characters. Wolf Riders far left. On my right I have the Beasts (Plaguebearers on their right, out of shot). Next the Daemonettes. The Boar Bus had gone down late and I was a bit worried about the Daemonettes, so I dropped the Keeper far left to help them out (and to stay away from the messy stuff). I'd have to play carefully on the left if I was to deal with the bus effectively.

[Mollesvinet]

Hi Phil,

thanks for the write up of game 1. Seems to me that your opponents biggest mistake was deploying his large unit in a way that allowed it to ignored and then not changing his plans of character drops accordingly. Sometimes you have to be flexible and not go with the initial plan! As you said, had his BSB gone to the PG then they would not have fled in panic and would have been in a good place to utilize the dragon tapestry. I think you played well to take advantage of this.

The orc list does not look like all that I must say. I would focus on warmachines and manglers first. After that, all you need to worry about is the unit of boar boys really.

Looking forward for more.

[SpellArcher]

thanks for the write up of game 1. Seems to me that your opponents biggest mistake was deploying his large unit in a way that allowed it to ignored and then not changing his plans of character drops accordingly. Sometimes you have to be flexible and not go with the initial plan! As you said, had his BSB gone to the PG then they would not have fled in panic and would have been in a good place to utilize the dragon tapestry. I think you played well to take advantage of this.

Thanks Thomas. I agree completely, sometimes you can do a lot with character drops. There is a tendency for players to go with their 'default' deployments but this can be costly sometimes.

The orc list does not look like all that I must say. I would focus on warmachines and manglers first. After that, all you need to worry about is the unit of boar boys really.

Pretty much!




Turn One

Orcs and Goblins

Having won the dice-off they immediately pushed the Manglers forward in the centre, supported by the chariot. Both units of Night Goblins managed to fail Animosity and Squabble, remaining stationery. The Boar Bus however, advanced to threaten a charge on the Daemonettes. The artillery killed a Horror and put a wound on the Skillcannon.

Daemons

The Keeper of Secrets raced up the left flank, pivoting to threaten both the Wolf Riders and the Boar Bus. The Beasts wheeled and headed towards the Boars, the Daemonettes moving sideways 3" to ensure they couldn't be charged. I hadn't planned to take this fight on so quickly but needed to protect the Daemonettes and felt the Beasts should hold on until help could come. The Plaguebearers headed that way too. I was a little concerned by the nearby Mangler but not hugely so. I edged my ranged units back to give me more time against the other Mangler and chariot.

The Keeper cracked his whip, killing all but one Wolf Rider and Panicking him back. The Flamers put a couple of wounds on the right Mangler but the cannon missed. Magic saw Aquiescence go through on the Boar Bus, stopping it cold.


Turn Two

Orcs and Goblins

The lone Wolf Rider rallied and the bus stumbled forwards, the Night Goblins moving up in support. The Mangler went through the Plaguebearers, killing a couple. The second Mangler and chariot rushed towards the Flamers, followed by the other Night Goblins. The Rock Lobber misfired, it couldn't fire next turn. Doom Divers killed three Seekers.

Daemons

The Flesh Hounds appeared on the left, on my opponents baseline. This immediately (I'd missed this!) triggered Fanatics from the nearby Night Goblins. Two killed a Hound each and died on leaving the field. My opponent aimed the third to block the Hounds off (they would take double damage if they moved through it). However, the roll was low, leaving me clear to move past. Wary of the Night Goblins I went all in, charging the bus frontally with the Beasts and getting the Keeper into their flank. Annoyingly, I couldn't quite get the Plaguebearers' BSB within 12".

The cannon killed the central chariot but the Flamers couldn't put the final wound on the accompanying Mangler. Reign of Chaos saw the second Wolf Rider unit, hiding behind the hill, wiped out. Going for a quick win I got Treason off on the bus. Beasts and Keeper took most of the second rank off, while the Orcs killed a Beast. I won by two, which thanks to Treason meant a Break test on a five with no re-roll. My opponent not only passed this, he made his Combat Reform, also on a five, which cleared the way for a Night Goblin charge in his turn. Arrgh!


Turn Three

Orcs and Goblins

Night Goblins charged the flank of the Beasts, ouch! The other Night Goblins advanced on the right, whilst the wounded Mangler went through the Flamers, killing one. The remaining chariot edged forwards to threaten a long charge on the Seekers. The Rock Lobber couldn't shoot. I believe one of the Doom Divers blew up while the other missed.

Combat saw the Keeper kill a couple more, with one Beast locked in a challenge with the Big Boss. Happily the Beast in contact with the Night Goblins killed several. I lost a couple more wounds from Instability but the Keeper passed easily. The combat stuck and I had three makeable charges next turn!

Daemons

Appallingly, both Daemonettes and Plaguebearers failed fairly short charges. It was left to the Flesh Hounds, making it into the flank of the Night Goblins, to save the day. On the right my ranged stuff backed off, while the two remaining Seekers made it into combat with the chariot.

Aquiescence went off on the bus, while shooting did nothing. The Seekers broke the chariot and ran it down. I lost another Beast but won the big combat, both enemy units held on Steadfast. We moved on to turn four but were informed to our surprise that we wouldn't have time to finish both player turns, so that was that. I'd won by just over 300 VP's.



12-8

[Mollesvinet]

Beautiful use of Treason, to bad he had lady luck on his side.

How long were the games?

[SpellArcher]

Beautiful use of Treason, to bad he had lady luck on his side.

Thank you!

How long were the games?

Pretty much the standard 2 1/2 hours, though this one was a bit confused because the pizzas arrived! I would put one of the lost turns down to me and two to my opponent. O&G are quite time-consuming to play. He was very apologetic because he felt he'd cost me a big win. At the end of the day though, it was an interesting, friendly, relaxed game and I won anyway. I pretty much always finish six turns against average or fast opponents. Against slower ones we might only get five or occasionally four turns in, this game was unusual. I feel if both players are relaxed about this it's fine. It's only if you as a player cost the other guy a result when he was playing reasonably quickly that there's an issue I think.

Debrief

As mentioned, I hadn't intended to tackle the bus quite so quickly. But by dropping it late my opponent threatened the Daemonettes and pretty much forced my hand. The initial combat round went swimmingly and I was indeed unlucky not to break the bus first round, as my opponent struggled to counter my magic. After that a grind ensued. O&G turn four would have been crucial. Odds are my opponent wins by one or two (he has static res but I kill more and my Beast being in a Challenge hurts him) and then it's a question of Daemonic Instability. If I'm very unlucky I could lose a unit which changes things. But the odds are I hold on, then put my infantry into the Night Goblins' flank which is probably decisive.

Speed

Nice cliffhanger...

In general I feel my army is reasonably quick. Daemonettes are M6, Beasts M6/Swiftstride, Keeper and light troops very fast. The main issue is the M4 Plaguebearers. In both games here they failed to make combat. In itself that may not be terminal because where more turns are played (as in game three) they get in. The issue is whether they get in fast enough. In these first two games I deployed them back so as to be able to March to either flank as the situation demanded. Game three I went for the 12" line and that too made a difference.

Banner of Swiftness is almost a default pick for Plaguebearers because of the above issues. But because of figure constraints, my Plaguebearers lack a banner. I can compromise and take a Magic Standard on the BSB, either Swiftness or the rarely used Rampager's Standard, which is nonetheless interesting. The issue is that it costs him his Gift, essentially the defensive magic weapon that helps keep him alive. With -1 to be hit, T5 and Regen/Ward this is perhaps not decisive but it's certainly a consideration for such a crucial 2-wound model. Nurgle troops become unbelievably dogged with him around.

Ideally I would like to add a faster Monstrous unit to put pressure on the enemy quicker and I'll come back to this point later. I miss my cavalry bus.

[Prince of Spires]

Congrats on the win. Was the outcome already a foregone conclusion or could your opponent have done something to turn the battle around?

Some bad luck in that game (with the passed LD test for the Orcs and not killing the mangler). But also some good in how little damage his artillery did.

Good point about not worrying about the manglers/fanatics. I'm too used to T3 elves who get no save against them. Higher T and ward saves make a difference.

I think I would struggle to get the game done in 2.5 hours. I talk too much... How fast you play depends a lot on how well you know your own army and army rules I think. In my previous skaven game for instance, my opponent had trouble remembering all specific little rules (I think it was only his second skaven game...). Which meant a lot of looking up rules but also a lot of thinking about what to do.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Congrats on the win. Was the outcome already a foregone conclusion or could your opponent have done something to turn the battle around?

Good question Rod. While I stick to believing the match-up favoured me, I don't think it was hopeless by any means. Deploying the Boar Bus without close support from Manglers etc may have been unwise, although the proximity of the Night Goblins and their Fanatics could have helped. Neither of us realised the Flesh Hounds would do a useful job in drawing these out! It did force me to react quite sharply though and might have ended badly for me were it not for my dominance in the magic phase. If the dice had hammered me in the combat phase after the Night Goblins charged that might have changed things.

Some bad luck in that game (with the passed LD test for the Orcs and not killing the mangler). But also some good in how little damage his artillery did.

As I mentioned on your thread Rod, solid list design can soak up some of that bad luck. My list isn't entirely optimal but the Beasts are very forgiving, they just keep on trucking. O&G artillery is bad, bad news for heavily armoured armies like Warriors of Chaos but less so for Daemons I feel. I'm not sure if it was in range to persecute my Keeper but if not, the Skillcannon would have been my choice target. It's 3+ AS is one of it's main strengths but artillery laughs at this.

Good point about not worrying about the manglers/fanatics. I'm too used to T3 elves who get no save against them. Higher T and ward saves make a difference.

Even Daemon units can't simply wade through multiple Manglers as if they're not there. But they won't be wrecked by a single high-rolling model as a small elf unit might be.

I think I would struggle to get the game done in 2.5 hours. I talk too much... How fast you play depends a lot on how well you know your own army and army rules I think. In my previous skaven game for instance, my opponent had trouble remembering all specific little rules (I think it was only his second skaven game...). Which meant a lot of looking up rules but also a lot of thinking about what to do.

My first round opponent played another High Elf in round two and unfortunately it was not a meeting of minds. The gent I played was there to have calm, relaxed games, meet new opponents and enjoy the hobby side. His opponent was there to win first prize. Such a clash of expectations is where you get problems.

As for Skaven, lol at the seven page FAQ for example! Funnily enough...

[SpellArcher]

Ding Dong Horribly On High
Game Three - Skaven

Slightly to my surprise, I found myself on table four for the last game, facing off against the evil ratties! As my opponent said, it was (largely) a Clan Skryre list, which in the time of 6th Edition meant bent but nowadays something more reasonable. Apparently she had played High Elves twice and was fed up with them. It's unusual to find an opponent happy(ish!) about playing Daemons!


Grey Seer, 4+ Ward, Earthing Rod, Screaming Bell
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Warp Energy Condenser
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll
BSB, Banner of the Under-empire

75 Clanrats, Full Command, Warp-firethrower Team
25 Clanrats, Full Command, Doomflayer
50 Slaves

5 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings
5 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings
10 Jezzails
10 Jezzails
10 Jezzails

Hellpit Abomination


Thoughts on this list and the match-up welcome.

[Cold Phoenix]

Ding Dong Horribly On High
Game Three - Skaven

Slightly to my surprise, I found myself on table four for the last game, facing off against the evil ratties! As my opponent said, it was (largely) a Clan Skryre list, which in the time of 6th Edition meant bent but nowadays something more reasonable. Apparently she had played High Elves twice and was fed up with them. It's unusual to find an opponent happy(ish!) about playing Daemons!


Grey Seer, 4+ Ward, Earthing Rod, Screaming Bell
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Warp Energy Condenser
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll
BSB, Banner of the Under-empire

75 Clanrats, Full Command, Warp-firethrower Team
25 Clanrats, Full Command, Doomflayer
50 Slaves

5 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings
5 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings
10 Jezzails
10 Jezzails
10 Jezzails

Hellpit Abomination


Thoughts on this list and the match-up welcome.

Wait, A skaven player with 30 Jezzails and no Warp Lighting Cannons!? Definitely not something I've seen before and the list could be alot worse with less Jezzails, 2 Warp Lighting Cannons and some items like the Brass Orb (Initiative test or die is horrible for nurgle units) and Doom Rocket. I think this one will come down to whether you can survive the shooting and magic to get to combat with enough numbers to get some points off the skaven. Jezzails aren't good at hitting the target but 30 S5 shots per turn... I think you'd have to be carful with the Keeper in this Matchup. On the other hand, the Skillcannon is pretty much perfect for killing the Hellpit and might give you a chance to shoot the Grey Seer off his perch. If he dies all those Skaven are going to be using their own LD and you might be able to panic some stuff off or break the blocks in combat.

[Prince of Spires]

Not the strongest of Skaven lists. But enough things in there to worry about.

The Hellpit is a bit an odd choice perhaps in an otherwise shooty list. And a single one isn't too tough to deal with, though it can be nasty depending on how it rolls.

It's probably a difficult list to get points off. The ambushing fleshhounds will be a help against the shooting, if only because it will distract the shooting for a turn. Most points will be in the Bell + seer, which are tough to get points from, the HPA and the jezzails. The BSB is another prime target, since the LD rerolls are very beneficial for Skaven.

I would probably try to ignore the bell unit and the slaves for a while. 25 clanrats you can get through in a few rounds of combat. 50 and 75 is too much as long as other stuff remains on the table. I would probably go after the HPA, shooting elements and the BSB/General. After those are dealt with, the rest isn't a lot to worry about.

Alternatively, combat should be a safe place. He can only shoot into a slave only combat. So pile everything into the bell unit and his shooting will do nothing for a couple of turns.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Thanks guys.

Jezzails aren't good at hitting the target but 30 S5 shots per turn... I think you'd have to be carful with the Keeper in this Matchup.

As my opponent said to me "No-one expects the Jezzails!". There's a reason they aren't often taken and not hitting enough is it. Like many left-field picks though, they have some strengths, especially in such numbers and they're actually S6 AP! If I let them target the Keeper they will shoot him down and they're a big threat to the Skillcannon too.

the list could be alot worse

The comp comes into play here. My opponent's list was a -1, compared to my -3 so you'd expect my list to be slightly harder. I rate the match-up a +1 to me accordingly. At first I thought it was even better than that but my opponent has Dreaded 13th, Warp Tokens and I have no scroll. I have 626pts of Core infantry and 500pts in Heralds, so am a little more vulnerable to this than a more mainstream Daemon list with it's Drones.

The Hellpit is a bit an odd choice perhaps in an otherwise shooty list.

I feel it actually makes sense because as a Stubborn powerhouse that you have to be careful engaging (or even going anywhere near with it's Random Movement) it can slow my approach to the Jezzails. With time I can maybe kill it entirely at range but that means waiting with my fighters.

I would probably try to ignore the bell unit

This is the question. If I decide to tackle it I feel I am probably best engaging it quickly with the Beasts (they are tough and immune to Dreaded 13th) then bringing in support. It'd take time though, a 13th on the Plaguebearers could be disastrous and I'd need to stop the Abomination getting involved. Alternatively, avoid and try to kill the rest. Terrain took a hand here as we shall see!

[Prince of Spires]

Terrain and deployment is definitely a key thing here of course. Out-deploy the bell or get favorable terrain and you're halfway there. On the other hand, it could very well be that avoiding it is impossible. In which case going for it fast is probably the way to go.

The problem with the HPA is that the skaven player has no way of controlling what it actually does. Using it to defend the jezzails could simply not work since it runs all over the place. You can't keep it stationary. Alternatively, it could simply not do anything all game because of some bad rolling. Having only 1 makes it worse in the sense that two give you a better chance of one of them actually doing what you want it to do.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

I agree that an Abomination is of limited use against small, light units that can outmaneouvre it Rod. But my Nurgle units are less able to do this. M6/Swiftstride on the Beasts is good but they run four wide and can't take a musician, which hurts lateral movement (something Lord Anathir used to focus on a lot). The Plaguebearers have a musician but are M4. If (as the game will illustrate), the Abom sits between these units and the Jezzails and simply advances, they will have trouble avoiding it. The distance may be random but not the direction. There is also the need to keep stuff well clear of it just in case it makes that long charge.


Pre-game and Deployment

Grey Seer: Wither, Cloud of Corruption, Plague, Dreaded 13th, 3 Warp Tokens
Warlock Engineer: Warp Lightning, Scorch
Warlock Engineer: Warp Lightning, Death Frenzy

Keeper: Acquiescence, Hysterical Frenzy, Phantasmagoria, Cacophonic Choir
Herald: Blue Fire, Firestorm
Horrors: Infernal Gateway

Keeper: ASF Sword
BSB: Fencers Blades
Herald: Sword of Might


So a strong Skaven magic phase, with the unpleasant prospect of an extra 3 power dice any time my opponent wanted them. I was happy rolling both Aquiescence and Choir on the Keeper and especially having Gateway for the first time! Defaulting the Slaanesh Herald to Sword of Might was questionable here. Being a Magic Weapon it would stop her attacks becoming Flaming due to the unit's banner.

Deployment was complicated by a very large tower in the centre of the table. I could see immediately that this reduced my chances of going for the big win, it would prevent my forces ganging up on the Bell unit. On the flipside, the tower made it easier to keep the Bell out of meaningful combat, so improving my chances of a small to moderate win.

My opponent kept my left flank pretty clear. The three units of Jezzails were more or less in the centre of her baseline, the right-most one in a building. Unusually, the Warlock Engineers were deployed outside units, nearby. The Abomination was dead-centre on the 12" line, with the small Clanrats (and Doomflayer) to the left. A bit to the right was the Bell unit, with it's Warpfire-thrower. Then the Slaves. The Gutter Runners would be 'ambushing'.

I weighted the left with my fast Slaanesh units to use the space, in particular the Keeper was on the extreme left again to reduce his exposure to Jezzail fire. Nurgle held the centre-left, with the Plaguebearers poised to skirt the tower and the Beasts to their left, Furies were behind. Right of tower were Flamers and the Horrors (with Herald), Skillcannon behind. Flesh Hounds off table.

[SpellArcher]

Turn One

Daemons

I wasted no time and rushed the Slaanesh units down my left. In particular I got the Keeper past the shooting arc of most of the Jezzails. The Nurgle units also advanced, while Tzeentch stayed back. Slaanesh, obviously approving of my army selection, vapourized one unit of Jezzails and one of the Warlock Engineers! The Skillcannon put a very useful three Flaming wounds on the Abomination, it would now not be able to reincarnate once killed.

Skaven

The wounded Hellpit moved round the tower to block my Nurgle units, while the surviving Warlock Engineer hid behind the tower. The Bell unit Swift Reformed and moved left in support. The Slaves advanced on the right. Magic saw Scorch kill a couple of Seekers. The Jezzails put two wounds on the Skillcannon.

Turn Two

Daemons

For the third game in a row, the Flesh Hounds appeared immediately, where the ex-Jezzails had formerly stood. I charged the Daemonettes into the front of the smaller Clanrats and got the Keeper into their flank. I figured the Nurgle units could kill the wounded Abomination without taking huge damage, so the Plaguebearers went in frontally and the Beasts into the flank.

Magic saw Nurgle kill four more Jezzails and Aquiescence slow the Bell, while the Skillcannon Misfired and lost next turn's shooting. The Keeper and Daemonettes did an ASF-fuelled number on the Clanrats, breaking them easily and running them down. The Abom was made of sterner stuff though, it killed a Beast and easily made it's Stubborn check to hold.

Skaven

Both units of Gutter Runners failed to appear. The Doomflayer charged in to help the Abom, whilst the Hexed Bell rolled gently towards the left. The Slaves continued their advance on the right. Warp Lightning killed a Hound, for some reason I forgot they had MR3! I'd held onto my dice, so it was now 3v3 but the Seer munched all three Warpstone Tokens and powered Dreaded 13th through, wiping out the Horrors! Fortunately, house rules gave my Herald a Look out Sir which he made, his survival preventing the creation of Clanrats. The Skaven actually won combat vs Nurgle but I held with my BSB.

Turn Three

Daemons

Flesh Hounds charged Jezzails. The Daemonettes backed off from the approaching Bell which I blocked off with Seekers, while the Keeper moved across to help Nurgle out. The Tzeentch Herald joined the Flamers for protection. Reign of Chaos decided to inflict Instability tests on my army but my opponent was incensed when good rolling saw only one wound taken! The Flesh Hounds wiped out the Jezzails and Reformed to face the last unit in their building. Weight of Poison finally killed the Abomination and Doomflayer but the central tower hindered effective Reforms.

Skaven

One unit of Gutter Runners appeared beside the Skillcannon. The Bell unit charged the Seekers. Slaves ground forwards. Magic saw Dreaded 13th fail to meet the casting value. The Jezzails killed a Hound but slingshot did nothing to my cannon. Bell unit chewed up the Seekers.

Turn Four

Daemons

Flesh Hounds charged Jezzails in building. Nurgle units backed off while the Keeper hugged the tower. The Tzeentch Herald headed for the corner but I moved the Flamers up past the Slaves' charge arc. Reign killed the second Warlock Engineer. Magic put the fix on the Bell again, while the Flamers took out the Warpfire-thrower. The Flesh Hounds killed some Jezzails but the rest held.

Skaven

The second unit of Gutter Runners popped up behind my Tz Herald. The Bell, blocked off by Gormenghast, inched around it. The Slaves headed back towards the Flamers. Magic saw Scorch from the Bell kill a couple of Flamers. This left 6v6 but once again, Dreaded 13th failed to cast. Gutter Runners killed the Tz Herald. More Jezzails died and the survivor fled the building, which became a makeshift kennel!

Turn Five

Daemons

The Furies did their job and flew down to redirect the Bell. Skillcannon charged Slaves in the flank, while the Plaguebearers marched up in support. The last Flamer took refuge in the castle. We'd realised this would be the last turn, so I passed on magic, not worth the risk. The Skillcannon killed a lot of Slaves but they held on Steadfast 5 and Reformed to face.

Skaven

Bell charged Furies, while the Jezzail fled the field. Winds were low, magic did little as did shooting. The Furies were wiped out while the Skillcannon/Slaves combat stuck. That was that. VP's 1217 v 470.

14-6

[Prince of Spires]

Congrats on the win. Nice combination of using a fast strikeforce to take out weaker parts of the list that could have caused trouble later on and a more moderate approach in the center.

I think the win was about as big as you could get without going after the bell I think. The rest of the army didn't contain a lot of points I think. With this in mind I think not casting any spells turn 5 was probably a good choice. Not worth the risk. You wouldn't have been the first person to lose their lvl 4 general on a two dice cast (though for deamons getting sucked into the warp is probably not so much dying as simply taking a coffee break...). And that would have been something like a 400pts shift?

The skillcannon vs slaves combat shows the downside of single model vs unit combats (did they make their terror test on a 5 as well?). Similar to the drawn out phoenix combat I had in my game vs skaven. You can kill a lot of them, but steadfast can really be a pain here. Though of course, making a LD 5 test is still lucky. It's usually why monsters come with the maxim go big or go home, unless they have clear secondary benefits (like the frostheart or the skillcannon). One or two extra attacks or a breathweapon can remove that extra rank or remove steadfast.

the Seer munched all three Warpstone Tokens and powered Dreaded 13th through, wiping out the Horrors! Fortunately, house rules gave my Herald a Look out Sir which he made, his survival preventing the creation of Clanrats. The Skaven actually won combat vs Nurgle but I held with my BSB.

This is a much debated rule. But I think the consensus actually is that you simply can't hit the character. I think the spell sais that wounds are distributed like shooting. And with shooting attacks more then 5 R&F models means you simply can't hit the characters in a unit.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

Congrats on the win.

Thank you!

And that would have been something like a 400pts shift?

630 points.

did they make their terror test on a 5 as well?

Skillcannon only causes Fear. But I always forget the damn tests!

It's usually why monsters come with the maxim go big or go home, unless they have clear secondary benefits (like the frostheart or the skillcannon). One or two extra attacks or a breathweapon can remove that extra rank or remove steadfast.

I think the Chimaera is a great example of this. It comes with a 4+ AS but you never see it without the 4+ Regen upgrade too. The Breath Weapon is almost always taken. These are the reasons we don't see Griffons for example very often.

This is a much debated rule. But I think the consensus actually is that you simply can't hit the character. I think the spell sais that wounds are distributed like shooting. And with shooting attacks more then 5 R&F models means you simply can't hit the characters in a unit.

I have the Skaven book and the wording does not mention distributing like shooting. From that description the character is a goner. The FAQ might change things though, do you have access to that Rod?


Debrief

As discussed, the central tower made it very difficult to assault the Bell unit, so my decision to avoid it and go for the rest was probably correct. The good thing was that while no single unit performed miracles almost all of them chipped in and achieved something. So the Flesh Hounds took out Jezzails, Nurgle (assisted by Skillcannon) took out the Abomination, the Keeper's magic and redirectors kept the Bell at bay.

The contrast between this Skaven list and the two I played at Reading was marked. Those were essentially a few big blocks of doom each with little in the way of support. This one was one huge block of doom with plenty of support. If my army has a weakness, it's that it can struggle to combine enough force to break such blocks in combat. On the flipside, it's pretty good at rushing forwards to take out support units.


Seekers

This unit encapsulates some of the above issues. It was of limited use at Reading, a big block environment, apart from as a redirector. While this is a valuable role, I wouldn't spend 100pts just for that. Contrast with Warwick where it drew shooting, took out a chariot and of course, redirected the Bell. The two games vs Thomas' Wood Elves it was simply shot to pieces.

The question is, do I keep it in? It brings a deployment drop and a Vanguard option but is very lightweight. 15 attacks is pretty respectable but T3 elves for example, which should be a good target, will likely slash this with ASF before it can count. It can't Flee charges which restricts it's mobility compared to most Fast Cav. I'm reluctant to lose my third redirector though. The 125pt Tzeentch Herald can do this in extremis but he just doesn't have the range.

[Prince of Spires]

The 400pts was a complete guess. With 630 points, losing it to an unlucky and unnecessary miscast T5 would have changed a big win into more or less a draw. So, good choice playing it safe. Sometimes in a tournament especially you are better off going for a cautious approach.

Interesting that the skillcannon only causes fear. I know it causes terror in a lot of players at least... Same here with the fear tests. I always forget them. Especially since for HE they are usually a non-event. Given the pass rate, I don't really worry about them.

This is a much debated rule. But I think the consensus actually is that you simply can't hit the character. I think the spell sais that wounds are distributed like shooting. And with shooting attacks more then 5 R&F models means you simply can't hit the characters in a unit.

I have the Skaven book and the wording does not mention distributing like shooting. From that description the character is a goner. The FAQ might change things though, do you have access to that Rod?

I've been on a rules hunt, but I can't find it. I have found the faq, but it mentions nothing on it. Then again, I can't find a generic rule on how to resolve attacks from magic. If it's hits then it's distributed like shooting. (BRB p42). Templates hit whatever is underneath and grant a LOS! roll. But otherwise there isn't really anything about how to deal with them. Memory error on my part I think.

As for the battle / battleplan. In the pre-game discussion we concluded (I think) that there were 2 choices: go after the bell fast with as much as possible and try to keep the rest of the army away until the bell unit is gone. Or go for the support units and get as much points from them as possible while stalling the bell.

Terrain gave you a clear option here I think. It does make me wonder if your opponent could have known this in advance as well and used it to his advantage. It's something I often wonder about (in general). When I see an impassible terrain piece go down centrally on the board or in a deployment zone then that immediately "screams" refused flank at me for my deployment. But if I can think of it then so can my opponent and this could give him an advantage. It's a common trap of course, only thinking about the strengths of your own army and not about how you would defeat your own army given terrain and opponent etc.

Could your opponent have used the terrain more to his advantage and turned your battleplan again you?

As for the seekers, a unit of reavers is 80 (admittedly core) points, so only 20 less then the seekers. And I find them well worth that investment. Of course, it helps here that they are core and thus points that have less useful options. Otherwise I would go eagle for 50 points, which is half. But then, eagles are probably the best redirector / stalling / movement control unit in the game point for point. So from that perspective the 100 pts are a bit on the high side for a pure redirector. But if they can perform a few additional functions they're probably still worth the points. And with 15 attacks that's 10 more then the 20 pts cheaper reavers. Fleeing is nice, but not as big a deal I think. With the option to redirect, I find myself rarely fleeing from units I try to block.

Whether you need three redirectors is a different discussion maybe. It's on the high side for 2400/2500 pts. That is not to say they are not worth it of course. But you can only spend the points once. As for using the Tzeentch Herald in extremis to help out, I'm of the opinion that anything is expendable if it helps secure the win. I would sacrifice my 600 pts general if it mean I win instead of lose (though a scenario where this is the case is probably hard to come up with). Perhaps parts of your list are fast enough to not need 3 redirectors. If you would have the 100pts left over, what would you spend them on though?

Rod

[SpellArcher]

The 400pts was a complete guess. With 630 points, losing it to an unlucky and unnecessary miscast T5 would have changed a big win into more or less a draw. So, good choice playing it safe. Sometimes in a tournament especially you are better off going for a cautious approach.

If I'm honest Rod, I am too cautious. So often I gain some advantage in a game then back off to preserve that, resulting in moderate wins that might have been big ones. Contrast with someone like Seredain who always went for the throat! Of course his lists were built more aggressively than mine and that's a point I'll return to.

Interesting that the skillcannon only causes fear. I know it causes terror in a lot of players at least... Same here with the fear tests. I always forget them. Especially since for HE they are usually a non-event. Given the pass rate, I don't really worry about them.

Worse still, I forget the damn Lore Attributes! Any time a Chaos spell kills stuff you have a chance to add models to your units and I forget this. Hopefully enough games will make this stick.

Could your opponent have used the terrain more to his advantage and turned your battleplan again you?

As mentioned in game one, deploying a Horde (with it's restricted movement and bunching of strength) too early can be exploited by a sharp opponent. But if you delay this, you have to leave enough space for such a unit, restricting your other drops and telegraphing your intentions. This Bell unit is a Horde par excellence. Probably it would have been possible to leave a gap to either side of the building and deploy the Bell last, according to enemy deployments. Though part of the point of my running smaller units is of course to be able to react to such moves and counter them.

As for the seekers, a unit of reavers is 80 (admittedly core) points, so only 20 less then the seekers. And I find them well worth that investment. Of course, it helps here that they are core and thus points that have less useful options. Otherwise I would go eagle for 50 points, which is half. But then, eagles are probably the best redirector / stalling / movement control unit in the game point for point. So from that perspective the 100 pts are a bit on the high side for a pure redirector. But if they can perform a few additional functions they're probably still worth the points. And with 15 attacks that's 10 more then the 20 pts cheaper reavers. Fleeing is nice, but not as big a deal I think. With the option to redirect, I find myself rarely fleeing from units I try to block.

I'm going to do a comprehensive army review that includes overlapping roles and redirectors Rod so I will address these important points later.


Conclusion

So I scored 38 points, which became 35 after my comp score of -3 was applied. This meant I finished 10th/22. While perfectly respectable I was a little surprised, given I'd won my last game on table four! But for example, the guy in 9th had a +10 Tomb Kings army! So he'd obviously scored fewer battle points, in that sense you might say that the comp worked fairly well. Although the winner Nick Vaux had a -9 Warriors of Chaos list with which he hammered three opponents.

More importantly perhaps, all of my games were pleasant, good-tempered and interesting to play. It's a bit of a cliché but I really do think 25% Lords and Heroes leads to more balanced armies and more fun games. I'm happy to say that I have a similar event lined up for May, where I'll be hoping to continue where I left off here.

[SpellArcher]

Back to Basics

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 50pt Gift
BSB, Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Slaanesh, ASF Locus, 25pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
14 Daemonettes, Eternal Flame, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Banner of Swiftness

4 Beasts of Nurgle
5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies, Slaanesh
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

2496


Core

Where it all begins. By including Daemonettes instead of simply more Plaguebearers or Horrors I make a controversial call that greatly impacts the whole list. I'm not willing to abandon them, so Core will remain much as it is. I'm considering Lichebone Pennant on the Horrors instead of Swiftness.

Lords

The Keeper did OK but here aesthetics come into play. My model is a bit small compared to the rest of the army, I'm considering adding some wings to make him look more impressive! That would make him a Daemon Prince once more. Fully kitted out he is close to the same points and I like the more 'personalised' feel. It's generally considered weaker but I want to find out. Of course keeping the Lord necessarily limits the amount of powerful Monstrous stuff I can take. But he is really good at dealing with armour and characters as well as magic.

Heroes

First stop is the BSB, very effective, he stays. Given that I have spent almost 200pts on Daemonettes, I keep the Herald who improves them so much. For her 165pts I could get a unit of 3 Plague Drones! But I'm not willing to leave the Core so dysfunctional, she stays. 125pts for the Tzeentch Lvl2 is likewise material but without him I am not getting enough from the 175pts in Horrors. He stays.

Special

4 Beasts of Nurgle. Next! The Furies are my best redirector, they stay. The 3 Flamers are controversial but their BS shooting gives me options and they can redirect at a pinch so they stay. The Seekers are a redirector with benefits but I'm not sure they're essential. Similarly, the Flesh Hounds have proved very effective, against certain enemies, when they arrive immediately. That's enough uncertainty for me to consider their position.

Rare

Skillcannon. Enough said.


Options

So if I drop the Seekers and Flesh Hounds I have 274pts to spend. What can I spend it on?

Primarily, a second Monstrous combat unit, either Beasts, Drones or Fiends. I lose a unit overall but because the Flesh Hounds Ambush, I don't lose a drop and I get a fast, powerful unit to threaten a flank immediately. 35pts to make the BSB a wizard if I can find them. Nurgle magic has some fabulous synergy with my units. Curse of the Leper on a Flamer target is horrific, as is Blades of Putrefaction on Daemonettes. Plus of course, Fleshy Abundance for a 3+ Regen is guaranteed to offend. Wizardry makes this guy slightly less solid but the extra Channel is helpful.

So, Beasts, Drones or Fiends?

[SpellArcher]

Beasts

These we know and love, best thing in the list. I am in the happy position of being able to add a second unit of three or four. Needless to say, this 'two-pronged strategy' would be a nightmare for many opponents. The first reason against it is comp, it will be heavily penalised or outright banned often. My next event is pretty much Uncomped but I want to develop an army I can happily use most places. Secondly, as Thomas mentioned earlier, such an approach may not win me many friends. Thirdly, while Beasts are reasonably quick, I would ideally like something even faster that I can race down a flank.

Drones

The next logical choice. S5 is not common in my list and would be especially useful against armour. With T5 and -1 to be hit, even vs shooting, they are very durable. They can't March but charge a long way and fly over redirectors. Likely to be outside BSB range but they can bring Gleaming Pennant to mitigate this. When I discussed the issue with my wife, she asked "Which unit is strongest?". "Probably the Drones but I'm not sure they'll look good with the army" I replied. "Get the Drones."

Fiends

At first glance these are the weakest option, being S4 and T4. But they have a few tricks to consider. As ever, Armour Piercing is very handy. Soporific Musk is subtle, lowering WS and Initiative by one each but helpful. Combined with Initiative 6, only elf characters will re-roll to hit them with ASF. Best of all they are M10 which means a serious charge threat turn two. The icing on the cake is being able to use the Lord's Leadership 9. The cherry on top is the Attribute which means for each wound inflicted by Slaanesh magic, I roll a dice. If this is a six, I get a new Fiend! I'm still not quite convinced they are hard enough for the fast attack role but they're a contender.

Bloodcrushers

So these guys are a fourth option. Whilst only T4, they have a 4+ AS and MR 1 so are passably durable. S5 (S6 on the charge!) is great, especially for Stomps. Again, Gleaming Pennant helps and they take a Musician for maneouverability. M7/Swiftstride is probably enough. Why aren't they more popular? I found the answer on The Daemonic Legion and it is Initiative. While the riders are I4, the killing power is in the Juggers and they are I2. By the time they get to strike, one or two of them may be gone. Theoretically, Slaanesh magic should help with that but it's wise to always be wary of a unit that needs a spell buff to function effectively.

So which should I pick?

[SpellArcher]

Horrors With Command



So, new, improved Horrors with added Standard and horn. The former is the staff from the Tzeentch Herald on Disc, sadly slightly bent (Finecast). I wanted to use the Changeling's staff but it snapped in two! Better in metal perhaps. The latter from the Hellstriders boxed set.