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 Post subject: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:50 pm 
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Green Istari

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This is a blog about Daemons. I've always liked them. Ever since the first Realm of Chaos models (see the dude above) they have fascinated me. I love playing against them, whether the games end in glorious victories or crushing defeats. In former times I briefly played Cult of Slaanesh and so had a decent number of them already. A short step then, to building a full army under 8th edition rules.

Last Saturday I ended a fairly intense time of painting Plaguebearers to travel to London for a game with Thomas, a strong Wood Elf player who posts on Asrai.org as Mollesvinet. He is preparing for a tournament next month and needed some practice. I brought what I could piece together, not tailored to WE's. 2000 points:

Daemon Prince, Lvl4 Slaanesh, Chaos Armour, 50pt gift, 25pt gift
Nurgle BSB, Regen Locus, 25pt gift

10 Daemonettes
10 Horrors
19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician

5 Seekers
5 Furies
6 Beasts
5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster

The Plaguebearers and Beasts (and BSB) need no explanation. Horrors are a decent Core pick (though currently proxied) and supplement the DP's magic. 10 Daemonettes are an unusual but not stupid pick I feel. Furies are always going to be useful and the Ambushing Flesh Hounds give an extra tactical dimension. The sheer speed of the Seekers demands attention. Flamers are controversial but I wanted a shooting phase and the Warpflame rule, whilst awful vs Crypt Horrors for example, has potential against Skinks and T3 elves. The Daemon Prince is vulnerable but the magic is strong and he's a powerful fighter.

Thomas brought:

Treeman Ancient, General
Treeman Ancient
Lvl4 Dark Magic, Steed, Dispel Scroll
BSB, Steed, Starfire Arrows, MR2

12 Hagbane Glade Guard, Musician
10 Trueflight Glade Guard, Musician
10 Trueflight Glade Guard, Musician

7 Sisters of the Thorn, FC
6 Wild Riders, Eternal Flame

5 Waywatchers

So a classic Core full of the best Enchanted Arrows. The Ancients are unusual but they have strong points, as I know from using one myself. Stubborn 10 is excellent (especially with 18" range). Each is a level two of Life, which yields a good pick of the Lore and the ability to cross-heal with Lifebloom. In general they are very hard to kill but they need to watch out for cannon, high-strength Flaming and Initiative-test attacks.

Dark Magic is a nasty Lore which fits Life quite well. Add to that the magic of the Sisters and it's plain that this is a strong phase. The elf characters ride with them, so the unit has a juicy 2+ Ward vs magic missiles for example. It also shoots Poisoned javelins and as 18" Fast Cav, goes pretty much where it pleases. As do the Wild Riders, who also hit like a freight train. Waywatchers are always useful, whether against armour or simply as a source of flexibly deployed shots.

So how do the two armies match up?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:27 am 
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Just looking at it, it looks like it will depend much on what Gifts you roll on the DP and whether Beasts can engage anything worthwile. Otherwise it looks like you will be shot and stomped to death.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:04 pm 
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I don't know about gifts or Daemons characters in general, but it looks like you'll have a hard time here. You have enough 'soft' targets which he can shoot down and then win by just avoiding the Plaguebearers and Beasts. The Daemon Prince is clearly a good target for Hagbane, but I assume you'll have been able to hide him from them sufficiently.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:28 pm 
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Hey SA,

To be honest, I know little about building daemon lists excepting what I've seen across me at tournies. I guess the danger here is that you might drip feed units into the enemy's jaws unless you can tie them together. Do these units of yours form tactical teams, a favourite army formation etc? I'd say you'd want to be using magic and fast/ambushing units to mess up enemy shooting in particular, but I'm not too familiar with the demonic magic phase. What are your alpha tools in this list and, assuming you're thinking of getting new models, where are you thinking of taking it in design terms? Infantry/magic heavy with fast support?

S

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:46 pm 
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Green Istari

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The World Is Not Enough

Thanks for the replies guys.

The short answer Mr S is that I want it all! The perfect army that shoots like hell, turns the enemy to goo in the magic phase and jumps up and down on them in combat. Whether the Slaanesh elements in particular will remain in their current form indefinitely is questionable. But I intend to build the army up to 2400/2500 with them in (they are painted!) and then take stock.

One fundamental dilemma for a Daemon player is whether to take a Greater Daemon. The army can otherwise struggle to take down hard characters or 1+ armour in combat. It is also the only way to get a level 4, particularly important because the army has no Dispel Scroll. But cannon are a big issue and so is archery because of the lack of armour. I of course have a level 4 but have picked a Daemon Prince. Unfortunately, he is even more vulnerable.

The guts of my army are the Beasts and the Plaguebearers. These can engage the enemy and usually, grind him down. In particular the Beasts are quite fast and if not challenged can hunt down the M5 Glade Guard. Thomas has no redirectors (such as eagles). This pretty much means he has to block my combat units with the Ancients at some point. Meanwhile he will indeed attempt to focus fire and shoot off my lighter units piecemeal. I have to try and double team archer units with my faster stuff and throw them off balance with the Ambushing Flesh Hounds.

The mass of Poisoned attacks from the Beasts means that, all else being equal, they should grind an Ancient down, even allowing for Tree Whack. Things are less clear for the Plaguebearers but S5 v T4 plus Regen reduces the impact of Thunderstomps. That combat is likely to drag on and on until (I hoped) the victorius Beasts could come in to help.

So I have to avoid taking too many arrows with the Daemon Prince. He also has to be wary of an early boosted Doombolt (we all love Warlocks!) because I have no scroll and Thomas has four Channels. At the same time I need to hurt the elves with Slaanesh magic. This has several nasty little spells and Choir, the nuke. But that only works within 12" so is not ideal for drawing the scroll early. So long as the DP survives, I retain the option of rushing him into the enemy and six-dicing bubbled Choir. A risky but potentially game-winning play. Otherwise though, I lack in particular, a long range nuke such as Searing Doom to threaten the Ancients. Unless I get lucky and roll up Gateway on the Horrors.

As it happened, Gateway eluded the Horrors and they defaulted to Blue Fire. I lucked out though, in rolling up the 2+ armour gift for the DP. He also got a S2 Breath Weapon which ignored armour saves. The BSB defaulted to the ASF sword as it was a good defence against the Wild Riders, who would be looking to kill him.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:18 pm 
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Green Istari

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Deployment

I had more drops than Thomas, which of course meant that he was likely to roll first turn. Fairly quickly his dispositions became apparent. The Hagbane went down in his free Venom Thicket pretty much bang in the centre of his deployment zone. One unit of Trueflight deployed opposite my left, on a hill, the other on my right in a second wood. He then weighted that flank by placing both Ancients opposite my centre-right and the Wild Riders further towards the flank. The Sisters (with elf characters) went down opposite my centre-left.

I had dropped the M4 Plaguebearers (with BSB) early, dead centre and on the 12" line (I've won games in the past where this unit gets deployed on a flank). The Furies were behind them as their main job was redirecting and they needed to stick close. The Beasts went down centre-left. To their left were the Seekers, with the Daemonettes far left. On my right were the Horrors and then the Flamers (to counter the Wild Riders) with the Daemon Prince bottom right corner. Here he would be safe from a turn one Doombolt and out of range of much archery. Thomas made sure to put the Scouting Waywatchers down opposite him though, especially considering his 2+ AS gift. The Ambushing Flesh Hounds remained off-table. I won the Vanguard roll-off and my Seekers moved forwards to block the Sisters, who shimmied towards the centre.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:36 pm 
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Turn One

The Wood Elves duly won the roll-off and went first. Most units held station but the Wild Riders advanced to threaten the Flamers. An average magic phase saw Throne of Vines go up on the General (this guy had Dwellers too of course). The Seekers suffered in the shooting phase, only one surviving. Worse, the five Waywatchers shot like heroes and put two wounds on the Daemon Prince.

On my left the Daemonettes marched into charge range, while I pulled the lone Seeker back behind the Beasts. These and the Plaguebearers wheeled slightly to their right and headed for the Ancients, with the Furies following up. The Horrors stayed put. I needed a 10 to contact the Wild Riders with the DP but failed and moved 5" instead, remaining behind the Flamers. On average these would have killed two or three Wild Riders but they rolled horribly and did nothing. Magic saw Hysterical Frenzy kill three Waywatchers and Remain in Play, while Throne was dispelled.

Turn Two

The Sister bus darted forwards into the gap left by the retreating Seeker. On my right the two Waywatchers moved into the wood, the Wild Riders charged into the Flamers. On the left some Daemonettes were shot off and the last Seeker died too. Centre-right some Horrors went down. Magic saw Bladewind fail to kill any Plaguebearers but the RIP Hysterical Frenzy was dispelled. The Wild Riders wiped the Flamers out and Overran into the DP.

The Daemonettes failed their charge (needing an eight) on the Trueflight and ambled forwards, somewhat shot up. The Flesh Hounds arrived behind the central Venom Thicket. Beasts and Plaguebearers ground on towards the Ancients, with the Furies flying forwards to threaten a flank charge on the Trueflight who were plugging the Daemonettes. Horrors held station. A big roll on Cacophonic Choir (aimed at the Wild Riders) was scrolled. Even dice would have seen the DP survive combat but the Riders rolled up and killed him. Disaster!

Turn Three

The victorious Riders galloped towards the centre. The Hagbane Swift Reformed to face the Flesh Hounds, while the Ancients formed a defensive line to block the advancing wall of Nurgle. I let Word of Pain go on the Plaguebearers then narrowly stopped a souped-up Dwellers. More Daemonettes were killed, together with one Hound and the Horrors (now my only wizard) shot down to three models.

I opened by failing (needed a 5 on three dice!) a flank charge from the Furies on the Trueflight, seeing no benefit in charging with the three Daemonettes I had left. The Hounds charged the Hagbane, taking a wound from Dangerous Terrain. Beasts and Plaguebearers each charged an Ancient. Blue Fire on the Waywatchers was dispelled. The Beasts began brilliantly, putting four wounds on (average would have been two) for no return. The other combat saw no wounds done.

Turn Four

The Wild Riders ploughed into the flank of the Plaguebearers. The Trueflight brought the Furies back into their front arc. Word of Pain hit the Beasts, while Shield of Thorns went up on the Hagbane (Lifebloom healing a wound on the Ancient). The remaining Daemonettes and Horrors were shot off. The Hexed Beasts failed to inflict a wound and saw one of their number Tree Whacked. Worse still, above average rolling followed by a bad Daemonic Instability test saw all but one Plaguebearers removed. Hagbane and Hounds traded blows but the elves, with Poisoned re-rolls, were on top.

That grind continued in the Daemon turn. The Beasts put a wound on and won combat but Stubborn 10 held easily. The Furies flew over to redirect. As anticipated, the lone Plaguebearer fell.

Turn Five

The General charged the Furies. Magic saw more urgent healing of the Ancient. The Beasts put more wounds on but lost one to Tree Whack. The Furies lost and vanished, the General Overrunning. The Hounds were wiped out.

The Daemon turn saw the Ancient needing to roll a six on his Ward to save his last wound which he of course achieved!

Turn Six

Wild Riders charged the flank of the Beasts. Sufficient wounds were caused and one bad Instability Test later, the field was free of Daemons. Thomas had lost some archers but no VP's were given up. A massacre!

0-20

So what went wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:04 pm 
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Green Istari

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Debrief

If there was one thing that lost me this game it was bad dice planning. I had quite a few rotten rolls but worse than this, I failed to build in a 'Plan B' in case these happened. For example, the Waywatchers put a surprise early two wounds on the Daemon Prince. This should have warned me off engaging the Wild Riders because the reward if I beat them would be moderate, while losing the DP was catastrophic. Of course it was unlucky to do no wounds with the Flamers and for the DP to die first round but a bad risk to take.

This cost me my best fighter, whilst leaving a very dangerous enemy free to strike. But it also cost me my magic phase and most of my defence. As mentioned, all else being equal, the Beasts should grind an Ancient down then move on to help the Plaguebearers. But with magic superiority, Thomas was able to keep the Ancient alive with Lifebloom. So both combats stuck, until the Wild Riders intervened decisively.

One mistake down to unfamiliarity, was bringing the Flesh Hounds on behind the Venom Thicket. I simply hadn't faced Wood Elves since the new book and assumed I'd win the combat. They should have come on behind one of the Trueflight units, likely taking them out. Other things like the mechanics of Daemonettes vs Trueflight were also not immediately obvious to me.

On the plus side I feel the decision to deploy my blocks centrally and head for the Ancients was correct, in general my dispositions were OK. Risking the Flamers for example was a decent play. Risking the DP was not!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:38 am 
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Nice blog SA, but could we see some photos of your army and of the battles?

P.S are you going to any of the UK 8th edition tournaments coming up this autumn?


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:46 pm 
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Green Istari

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Thanks Galdor. My IT fu is weak but I'll see what I can do.

Sadly it's probably no tournaments for me until the new year. I just won't have enough models painted. I will be playing games though. My opponent in this first game will be taking his Wood Elves to Raze and Ruin in Leicester next month.


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OK, so I have managed a tiny picture of my Plaguebearers. More work required...

:)

Tiny Flamer:

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Tiny BSB:

Image

I will persevere.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:50 pm 
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Nice! Keep 'em coming.


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:55 pm 
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Green Istari

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Thanks Galdor.

Flame On

One early concern I'm finding is the shooting phase. I'm used to all sorts of elvish archery goodness, so playing an army with fewer missiles is a bit of a culture shock. There's a good argument in general for going MSU (as with WoC) and swarming forwards to mitigate the lack of shots. I'm aiming at combined arms though and that necessitates a healthy, if perhaps modest, shooting contingent. I will leave aside for the moment the joys of the Lash of Despair (and of double Skillcannon) and focus on my bread and butter, Flamers.

Flamers used to be horrific. I'm sure many 7th edition players can join me in remembering entire combat units vapourized. Then came the White Dwarf update and suddenly Daemon players dropped them like a bad habit. Partly because the cost went up but mainly because of the to-hit penalties they acquired. They were similarly unpopular when the 8th army book came out, not changing much beyond losing a point of Strength and gaining the double-edged Warpflame rule. As the elf books emerged though, they experienced a mini-renaissance. A shooting counter to fast but fragile units became attractive again.

The bottom line is that they are no longer the blockbusters of old but are rather useful against archers or Fast Cavalry say. The Warpflame rule makes shooting Trolls for example a non-starter. But against T2 Skinks or even T3 knights for example, it has mileage (Edit 1/10/2015, just found out Warpflame works in combat too, very interesting!). I think there's a lot to be said for 2x3 as opposed to a single unit of six. Firstly because one third of your models can be upgraded to BS 5 Pyrocasters, compared to one sixth. Secondly because even one wound done triggers the Warpflame rule, so you are getting a relatively better return on your investment. There are also of course the traditional advantages of being able to split your fire and the 3's being semi-disposable at 130pts.

Magic is where it gets interesting. The army has plenty of nuke spells, especially from the Lore of Tzeentch, which mitigate the lack of shooting. It also has access to Enchanted Blades from Lore of Metal. A unit of six with +1 to hit on S4 AP shots is worthy of respect. If running MSU you can even consider making the Metal Herald a BSB, giving him the Flaming banner and adding him to the unit. Add two more units of six and suddenly it's open season on those Trolls! The army also has access to no less than three Toughness debuffs. Withering, Soulblight and Curse of the Leper. These are especially good because they not only increase the chance of wounding but also of that Warpflame test being failed. In this case it doesn't matter how your Flamers are split between units.

One thing to bear in mind is the randomness. As with most things Daemonic, Flamer damage output can be awesome. Or they can roll four shots on 3D6, as mine did. This is another reason for taking a second unit, redundancy is always good. Daemons are never going to win a shooting war vs elves but I feel the second unit would keep certain enemy units honest. Sadly this will have to wait awhile, the next project being a real unit of Horrors to replace the proxies I'm currently using. But 2x3 Flamers is looking good for my final 2400/2500 target lists.

A second game tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:35 pm 
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Rematch

So yesterday Thomas and I played another game. Daemon list:

Daemon Prince, Slaanesh Lvl 4, 50pt Gift, Chaos Armour
BSB, Nurgle Lvl 1, Regen Locus, 25pt Gift

10 Daemonettes
10 Horrors
19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician.

5 Seekers
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Slaanesh Furies
6 Beasts
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster

So a few tweaks. I wanted to try the Hounds without Ambush, maybe threatening a turn 2 charge and overloading the WE archers. Magic had been a problem so I dropped the 25pt Gift from the DP and made the BSB a wizard. Lore of Nurgle is full of good spells, though the sig is a bit limited. Another channel would not go amiss. I had some points left over, so upgraded the Furies to Slaanesh. This can be useful for using the General's (18") leadership, though the utility of Armour Piercing is questionable vs this foe.

Speaking of which, Thomas rang the changes (he had six lists on his computer and we rolled a dice!) and brought:

Glade Lord, Horsi, Spirit Sword, Opal Amulet, Light Armour, Shield
Lvl 4 Beasts, Horsi, 4+ Ward, Power Stone

10 Trueflight, Musician
10 Trueflight, Musician
20 Eternal Guard, Shields, FC, Gleaming Pennant

8 Wild Riders, FC, Eternal Flame
5 Scouts, Hagbane

8 Waywatchers
Treeman
2 Eagles

So a similar level of firepower to the previous list. Less magic though and no Dispel Scroll. Both characters join the
Wild Riders to make a small but punchy bus. The Spirit Sword Lord is the ultimate glass cannon. Power Stone is there to force through Savage Beast of Horros. No BSB is risky but at least the Lord gives Ld10 and the EG have Gleaming Pennant. Lacking the Ancients, Thomas has two Eagles for redirecting. The Treeman is less solid than his brethren but at least brings WS 6 and five attacks to the party.

How is the match-up this time?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:53 pm 
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Match Up

The first difference is that this time I'm not facing the Treeman Tag Team. Yes there's one and he's slightly more killy but he has one less wound and there's no Life magic to heal him. He's also Ld9 and there's no BSB, making it less likely he can hold the Beasts up. Thomas does have a pair of Eagles to redirect with. I'm quite happy fighting the Eternal Guard, though if they sit in the Venom Thicket they can give the Plaguebearers a run for their money.

I don't have Doombolt to worry about, though Amber Spear is a big threat. The last game I played with my Wood Elves saw me kill a Daemon Prince with this spell turn one. Happily, I have three wizards vs one, so more spell options and channels. I have the Flesh Hounds to deploy now, hopefully leaving the WE archers less free to simply shoot my poor Daemonettes off the board. Ironically though, here they are the drop I have more than Thomas, so he is still likely to roll first turn!

My aim still has to be to get the Beasts and Plaguebearers into combat pronto. The Wild Riders will be a tough foe but I still fancy my chances in a frontal grind, I just musn't let them into my flank. I also need to get the Daemon Prince forward without getting him shot/magicked off. He is a powerful fighter and Choir is deadly but only has a 12" range.

Once again, I managed to roll the 2+ Armour Gift on the DP which was huge, the BSB defaulted to ASF sword. Thomas rolled Wildform, Flock of Doom, Amber Spear and Curse of Anrahir. Not bad but he'd missed Savage Beast. I rolled up the MM from Nurgle and kept it, while the Horrors swapped Treason for Blue Fire. The DP got Aquiescence, Pavane, Slicing Shards and Choir. Not bad at all!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:35 pm 
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Deployment

This time Thomas put his Venom Thicket close to the halfway line, though still very central. The Eternal Guard went down in line with this. Centre-left (from my perspective) was the Treeman, then an Eagle, then Trueflight and the Scouts far left. Centre-right were the Waywatchers, then an Eagle, then Trueflight on a hill. Finally the Wild Riders plus characters.

Once again, I put the Plaguebearers down dead centre. The Beasts went centre-right. I went five wide with them (no room for number six!) to threaten a wider area of the board. They are so tough I reasoned they could Reform after a round of combat, if necessary. To their right were the Flesh Hounds. I'd considered running these on the left to help the Daemonettes out but opted to try and pull the Wild Riders closer to the Beasts. Lastly I had the Flamers, in a wood. Left of centre were the Daemonettes (opposite a building) and then the Daemon Prince. The plan was to skirt the building and come round behind the WE centre, reducing the shooting/magic he would take. Then Furies and finally the Seekers.

The Wild Riders Vanguarded forwards but the Seekers stayed put because they were in long charge range of the Scouts and I wouldn't be able to charge if I Vanguarded, if I was lucky enough to roll first turn. In retrospect this was too ambitious. I should have used the 12", which would have left them 8" from the Scouts (too close to allow a subsequent Stand and Shoot). Sure they would still likely be shot to pieces but a bad round of archery could see them profit.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:22 pm 
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Turn One

As expected, the Wood Elves won the roll-off. The Wild Riders advanced to threaten charges on the Flamers, Flesh Hounds or Beasts. The Eternal Guard moved into the Venom Thicket, flanked by the Treeman, who was shielded by the building. Archers and Eagles stayed put. A modest magic phase saw Curse of Anraheir hex the Plaguebearers. Archery killed three Seekers and also put three wounds on the Flamers.

I pushed the Flesh Hounds forwards to threaten the archers on my right. The Wild Riders could charge and destroy them but would then eat a charge from the Beasts. These wheeled slightly to threaten long charges. The Plaguebearers came forward 4" to avoid DT tests from the Curse. Daemon Prince and Daemonettes marched to the left side of the building, intending to round it and threaten the WE centre. The Seekers were destroyed by a Stand and Shoot from the Scouts. An eventful Reign of Chaos saw snake eyes cause DI tests all over the place but thankfully the damage was minor. Two-diced Cacophonic Choir on the Treeman failed to cast. The Flamers rolled well and killed two Wild Riders, though these passed Warpflame.

Turn Two

To my surprise, the Wild Riders charged the Beasts. I'd expected them to take out the Flamers and Reform facing the centre but forgot that Frenzy would have forced them to Overrun instead. An eagle blocked off the Flesh Hounds. Eternal Guard and Treeman both failed long charges into the Beasts. The second Eagle redirected the DP. A 9v6 phase saw me let Curse through on the Beasts but crucially, stop Wildform. Shooting killed five Horrors. Thomas then revealed the Spirit Sword and his unit put five wounds on the Beasts for the loss of two Riders, I believe a failed Daemonic Instability test caused a further wound.

The Flesh Hounds charged the Eagle. Flamers advanced to get into range. The Plaguebearers wheeled to threaten the Wild Riders, while the Furies were sacrificed to block off the WE centre. The Daemon Prince charged the second Eagle and the Daemonettes headed for the left archers. Reign killed three Waywatchers and Blue Fire wiped out the Scouts, aided by a failed Warpflame test, the Horrors recovering all five of their dead via the Lore Attribute! I killed both Eagles and reformed DP and Flesh Hounds to face the centre. The Wild Riders continued to grind down the Beasts but these killed the mage.

Turn Three

I was surprised again as the right archers charged downhill into the flank of the Flesh Hounds. Eternal Guard charged the Furies and the Treeman rounded the building, out of sight of the DP. No magic now. Shooting killed some Daemonettes. The Beasts were finally disposed of, the Wild Riders Reforming to face the Plaguebearers. Eternal Guard removed the Furies. The archers left only a single Flesh Hound alive.

Plaguebearers charged Wild Riders. Daemonettes charged left archers but Stand and Shoot took them down to three models. I considered a charge to rescue my Hound but instead used the Flamers to block the Eternal Guard from charging the Plaguebearers. I believe my DP failed his March test, instead moving 8" round the building. Choir put a single wound on the Treeman. The Flamers rolled well again, killing several EG with the aid of Warpflame. Left archers destroyed Daemonettes, right archers finished off the Hound, while Plaguebearers and Wild Riders ground away.

Turn Four

More aggression, as the Waywatchers charged the flank of the Flamers! Treeman went into the rear of the Plaguebearers while the EG reformed to face the DP. Archery was ineffective. Flamers were reduced to a single wound but killed two Waywatchers (Warpflame should have been tested for here!). The growing Plaguebearer combat continued.

The DP charged the EG who fled, leaving him to stumble forwards a few inches. Again double one for Reign! Again little real damage. This time though, I channelled a die and forced Choir through on three dice, putting two further wounds on the Treeman. The big combat continued inconclusively, while the Waywatchers finished off the heroic Flamer.

Turn Five

The EG rallied. All archers took aim at the DP and shot two wounds off. Big rolling saw Thomas destroy the Plaguebearers and leave BSB on a single wound.

Daemon Prince charged the Treeman. Two-dice Aquiescence on the WR's was IF'd, costing two magic levels and sucking back the six dice I was holding for Choir! Combat continued badly with the WE Lord hitting four times, despite losing his re-rolls and wounding four times, despite T5! The BSB returned the compliment and passed all four Regens before putting two wounds on the Lord, while the DP felled the Treeman. The Lord and lone Wild Rider broke and escaped the BSB's Pursuit by an inch!

Turn Six

Thomas rallied his Riders and shot a further wound off the DP.

The vengeful BSB's magic missile on the Riders was dispelled but Blue Fire from the Horrors went through, finishing off the unit itself. A failed Warpflame test by the Lord would have killed him and secured me a draw but he passed and that was the game.

8-12

A much tighter affair. What was the difference here?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:50 pm 
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Sounds like an interesting battle!


Comparing it to your previous fight, I'd make a couple of observations:

1. His magic was less of a threat (evaporating completely!).

2. Your DP, although not doing a lot until later in the game, was able to survive and be a threat - if some of your magic had gone better, he could have been even more dangerous.

3. You were able to tie up a lot of combat power in a static grind. Although ultimately it cost you the beasts and the plaguebearers, this is what Nurgle is for - and not the place I'd want squishy elves. This left your DP free to pick his fights rather than being crushed early on like last time.

4. She Who Thirsts obviously wants your soul - rolling snake eyes for Reign TWICE?? You're doomed!!! :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:59 pm 
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Hi Orchaldor and thanks for the comments.

Magic

The boot was indeed on the other foot as far as magic went in this game. Instead of me losing my level 4 on turn 2, Thomas lost his. I still only managed one spell through each turn but Choir weakened the Treeman and the MM's were effective too. Plus there were no WE buffs to win the big combat with. I've been looking at ways of decreasing reliance on a level 4 but Tzeentch is the only God to easily allow this, with level 2 Heralds backed up by Horrors, not to mention a passable sig spell. Slaanesh and Nurgle Heralds are limited to level 1 and I don't rate the sigs.

Daemon Prince

First game I was unlucky to lose two early wounds on this guy and was then too aggressive with him. This game my deployment meant he was not facing serious archery until near the end because of cover and charge threats. The Seekers and Daemonettes were shot off early-mid game but this drew fire away from the DP. Even so, he finished on one wound and that having rolled the 2+ Armour Gift!

Early game I got the utility of +4 to dispel. After that he was able to force spells through, only needing to roll an 8 to cast Cacophonic Choir is very powerful. He also killed an eagle then finished off the Treeman which my S4 troops otherwise struggle to hurt. The Slaanesh magic and combat power are both very strong, the only issue is keeping him alive.

The Grind

I agree, it was a good move to invite the Wild Rider charge. I didn't see the Spirit Sword coming but the funny thing is, it actually only works on Characters, Monsters and Champions and not on Beasts of Nurgle as we played it! Thomas felt very bad about this afterwards but it was an honest mistake and made for an interesting game. He hacked his way through the Beasts but lost half the Riders and all his magic in the process. I was then able to charge the depleted unit with my full-strength Plaguebearers. The Treeman made an impact but by sacrificing the Furies and Flamers I kept the Eternal Guard out of the fight. The Daemon Prince arrived just in time.

Reign of Chaos

Yeah, I was expecting a double-one result (let alone two!) to be catastrophic but it didn't turn out that way. Firstly, I guess there is a big difference between an unmodified Daemonic Instability test and one taken at minus three or four. Secondly my main units, the Plaguebearers and Beasts not only have lots of wounds to soak up damage, they also benefit from the BSB's re-roll. The Daemon Prince could get unlucky but unless a double six is rolled he can only lose two wounds at worst.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:04 pm 
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Khorne's Best Friends

Thus far, the Flesh Hounds haven't done that well for me, though they have taught me a couple of things. Firstly, that Wood Elf archers in the Venom Thicket fight pretty well. Secondly, that it's risky to expose their flank. I considered whether reforming 2x2 would have helped, to get another Hound into the fight. Yes it would but still risky IMHO. Simply facing the archers and ignoring the Wild Riders would have been best.

For 165 points, I get a fast unit that hits reasonably hard on the charge with 10 S5 attacks. This is useful because my Plaguebearers and Beasts, while rock-solid, are slower and can struggle vs armour. The Hounds are reasonably survivable, with ten wounds and T4. The sobering thing is, that 3 Plague Drones would cost the same and are much hardier and grind much better. So what else do the Hounds bring?

I feel that at 2000pts on a 6 x 4 table, I probably need to deploy them. They can threaten turn 2 charges (perhaps better than Drones) and help overload enemy shooting. Getting up to 2400/2500 there would be a better case for Ambushing. This can really throw an opponent off his game but there is no guarantee of a charge threat on turn 3 even. You often see them Ambushing in MSU lists alongside Drones, where more units means less space to usefully deploy and coming on behind or on the flank of the enemy can help to close the net being tightened by all those MSU elements.

Thematically, I want to include daemons of all four gods and not going all-out Nurgle has benefits like reducing your exposure to Purple Sun for example. I like units with smaller footprints too as these tend to be more maneouverable and make deployment easier. Of course I could consider Fiends, which are even faster but I already have a Slaanesh contingent and these don't hit quite as hard for the same points.

Several spells help them. Hysterical Frenzy for example adds five S5 attacks and Acquiesence can let them strike first or stop elves re-rolling to hit them. Nurgle magic is a bit short-ranged (thus more likely to help Plaguebearers or Beasts than faster flanking elements) but Miasma of Pestilence and Curse of the Leper could make a big difference. I like the fast threat they bring, I just need to learn their limits and not waste their potential.

One thing to bear in mind is that they are War Beasts. This grants Swiftstride which is excellent but it also means they can be Stomped, so charges on Monsters or Monstrous units have to be carefully weighed up. Lastly, their Collars of Khorne give them MR3, which together with the 5+ Daemon Ward means they have a 2+ Ward vs spells. Being almost immune to Magic Missiles and such can be useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:45 pm 
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Beelzebubbles, Proctor of Pestilence

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Flamer

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:08 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Sadly it's probably no tournaments for me until the new year. I just won't have enough models painted. I will be playing games though. My opponent in this first game will be taking his Wood Elves to Raze and Ruin in Leicester next month.

Thomas placed 19th/60 with his Triple Ancient list. I was wrong and will be playing this tournament:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 3&t=128205

Daemon Prince (General), Lvl4 Slaanesh, 75pt Gift, Chaos Armour.
Daemon Prince, Lvl 4 Tzeentch, 50pt Gift, 25pt Gift, C/Arm, Fly.
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift.

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician.
15 Daemonettes, Full Command, Eternal Flame.
10 Horrors

5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
5 Furies of Slaanesh
5 Seekers
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
1 Beast of Nurgle

How will it go?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:56 pm 
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The Nurgle Herald is a classic - one of the most characterful miniatures in the range. I also like those old Plague Bearers (though I prefer the new plastics - they'll be Chaos Chosen proxies in my army) - nie job on them.

Good luck with the games!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:05 am 
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Hello Phil,

Sorry for the late reply! Work has been crazy lately plus there have been tournaments to attend to which eats up whole weekends.

It is great to see that you are doing such detailed descriptions of our battles, makes me feel even worse for messing up the rules for the spirit sword. To make up for it I can take extra photos for your blog next game. At least I got the entire board painted green by now, so it is less embarressing to post pictures of it.

Also in the future I will be able to give more feedback about the games we played, but since we played so long ago I am afraid that I can't give much interesting information about the previous ones.

Let me know when you are up for another game. Currently I am practicing for the "Fires of the old world" tournament in Hockley. As you know I usually take very funky armies like the three treemen, but this time I made a very evil list. Face it at your own risk!


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:26 pm 
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Thanks guys.

I believe the Nurgle Herald is from the late 80's Jes Goodwin range of Chaos Champions RE. I'm a sucker for guys with animal heads! The finest army I ever saw was a Khemri force converted from the 80's plastic skeleton boxed set. All the priests had animal heads!

The Plaguebearers are what convinced me to do the army really because I've loved them since their 6th edition release, they are a Core unit I actually wanted to paint. Plus they are very forgiving on the table. I went for a simple Nurgling Green basecoat with dirty yellow details and a Baneblade Brown wash. Quite serviceable, though my tablet camera is not great sadly.

Great news about Hockley Thomas! I guess after an event like Ill Blood 3 for example we think to ourselves "If I can do fairly well with an unusual list, how well could I do with a really hard one?". I look forward to fighting yours! I'll work out when I'm available and PM you on Asrai.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:48 pm 
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Karma will probably have it that I do much worse with a stronger list. Looking forward to hear from you!


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:10 pm 
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Nonsense sir, you will romp to victory!

:)

PM'd.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:31 pm 
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Reading Warfare List Preview

SpellArcher wrote:
Daemon Prince (General), Lvl4 Slaanesh, 75pt Gift, Chaos Armour.
Daemon Prince, Lvl 4 Tzeentch, 50pt Gift, 25pt Gift, C/Arm, Fly.
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift.

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician.
15 Daemonettes, Full Command, Eternal Flame.
10 Horrors

5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
5 Furies of Slaanesh
5 Seekers
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
1 Beast of Nurgle


So this is the list I've submitted. The bottom line is it's what I could scrape together. Even by my usual standards this is an underpowered and very risky list. Basically, I just wanted to enjoy playing and support the (surprisingly healthy) 8th edition tournament scene. The good thing is I'm expecting to struggle big time with it, so any success will be a bonus.

The Core is not too bad. 10 Horrors are a solid pick. 19 Plaguebearers is smallish but decent, these guys are tough! I've been dissatisfied with my unit of 10 Daemonettes so far. Fifteen FC is a better tarpit and may actually get into combat in enough strength to trouble elves. Eternal Flame gives me a tool if I run into Regen. Simply more Plaguebearers and Horrors would probably be stronger but it's not a huge disparity.

In Special I have my usual support units, all semi-expendable. I went for Ambush on the Flesh Hounds because threatening war machines could be vital here. Where are my Beasts? Unfortunately, I've been using proxies and only have one painted. He's bound to be useful but the loss of the combat block is likely to hurt. There are no Rares. In particular, a Skillcannon would have really helped here.

So after the uncontroversial BSB, I have a further 1000+ points sunk into characters. Specifically two Daemon Princes. These fight well but die too easily. I have no Monstrous units to screen them from cannon and even S3 archery can take them down, in enough volume. The rough gameplan is to protect the Slaanesh General as best I can and be more aggressive with the Tzeentch guy. My units just can't kill anything tough and I'll need him to chip in with his high strength attacks.

The only real strength of the list (apart from the units being fairly disposable) is magic. I have ten spells (including the pick of Tzeentch and Slaanesh lores) and four Channels. I have an excellent chance of rolling Infernal Gateway, which could be vital against really hard targets. For most games I'll default to Chromatic Tome, which will guard against a bad Winds roll when I really need key casts.

So the overall strategy will be to hide the General (Slaanesh Lore is full of Hexes) and avoid a stand-up fight, if necessary by sacrificing support elements. Meanwhile cause pain in the magic phase. If things go really well, commit the infantry and characters against depleted enemy. A bad plan is better than no plan as they say!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:56 pm 
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Quite agree with your assessment. Just one comment: Be careful not to be too defensive with the daemon princes, seems like they make up almost half the army so better get good use out of them! Of course if there are 4 dwarven cannons out and about, then there is not much else to do than hide and wait for the dogs to save your bacon.


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:44 pm 
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This is it, cannon are bad news and I just hope I find some houses and walls to hide behind. Comp may help a bit, Daemons are likely to only bring one Skillcannon for example. Another benefit to hanging back is increasing the impact of Reign of Chaos, especially combined with the Tome. Against elves for example I can consider attacking with the General but considering the damage even a moderate shooting phase has done to him I have to be circumspect.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:34 pm 
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