Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

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mstrdtch
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Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#1 Post by mstrdtch »

So. My first game with High Elves (and near-first game playing Fantasy) against Lizardmen didn't go too great for me. I'm wondering if there is something I can do to improve?

I took for my 1600 points:
Archmage with book of Hoeth and the 4+ wardsave talisman, BSB with reaver bow, 20 LSG, 25LSG, 20SM with BotWD, 2x5 Reavers.

He took something like:
Tetto'ekko (skink priest Special Character), BSB Saurus with some good CC magic items, 1 smallish unit of skins, 1 bigger unit of skinks, a big unit of saurus warriors (30+), 2 salamanders, and 2 (!!) stegadons (1 of them ancient) and I think that was it.

We played the Watchtower and I started in defence, and put the 20 LSG inside of it. I think this was a big mistake, as his 2 salamanders could just flame that unit to death very quickly and then the saurus unit moved in. I did make good use of High Magic by walk-between-worlds-ing my big unit of swordmasters right through the tower in front of his saurus unit before they reached the tower. He accepted to charge, but despite my swordmasters having boosted ward save from the magic phase (2++ vs. magic, 3++ vs shooting, 4++ vs CC) and them also going first thanks to ASF, that saurus unit just chewed right through the swordmasters. His BSB chopped up the SM champion in a gorey fashion, his unit killed like 8 more, I got like 4 kills back, he won massively through combat resolution though failed to catch the fleeing swordmasters.

Also his stegadons were absolutely brutal. How is it possible to have such a big CC block, in addition to all those skinks and salamanders, in addition to TWO huge monstrous creatures, in 1600 points? How is that fair compared to the amount of models I could get for that price. One stegadon managed to charge the 25LSG+BSB. Their Stand & Shoot of course, did nothing (S3 vs T6) and his impact hits + thunderstomp + attacks + skink attacks absolutely tore a hole in my unit, killing something like, 10 elves. They did nothing back, and even with rerolls from the BSB, they didn't pass their Ld2 break test. So then my BSB was also kill and that unit was gone.

Oh and i forgot to mention, he cast a Comet of Cassandora in the middle of the board, which hits the next turn and kills many elves in the tower, as well as swordmasters, as well as the other LSG unit before they took a charge from that Stegadon.

My reavers did as expected, one unit harrying each flank and being a nuisance before getting killed by skink javelins.

One hilarious moment in the battle though, was that Tetto'ekko attempted to debuff my swordmasters, but he got an irresistable force. The miscast result explosion killed 9 skinks from the unit he had joined, they panicked and fled towards their table edge, and on my turn a simple 'declare charge' from reaver unit vs the fleeing unit was enough to run them off the table (a fleeing unit does have to declare a 'flee' reaction if they were fleeing before the charge was declared, right?) So that was his general gone :)

Still I lost horribly because yeah well all my units died in the end (or close) and his big unit of saurus was sitting int he tower, almost unwounded.

HOW to beat these lizardmen?

I am playing only 3 persons regularly, and 2 of them have this army. :(
Blackbird
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#2 Post by Blackbird »

One simple change that I like against big monsters is lore of metal, will melt away
his stegadons with signature and gehennas golden hounds, it´s decent vs saurus also.
It´s also defensive versus all those skink shots.

Salamanders are a pain but die if charged by something, maybe 5 dragonprinces or 10 silverhelms.
also, if they fire at the tower(with your units in them) they fire with a template and only hit d6 models per shot. so your LSG should be pretty safe there.

Swordmasters are great at killing saurus warriors and with glittering robe they might even survive the incoming atacks. Whitelions have that extra armor vs the skink javelins, consider have ing them there :)

I understand that your army mostly consists of Isle of blood models, but if its possible, limit your amount of core to 25% and use more special and rare units, they are rly strong :)

Good luck, lizardmen is a solid race to fight against :)
SpellArcher
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#3 Post by SpellArcher »

I agree with most of Blackbird's post.

You have a mostly infantry army against which Monsters will be effective mstrdtch. Even after 10 casualties though, if you have a rank of five models left your Break test is on Steadfast Ld8. It might have been worth Fleeing the charge or sacrificing a unit of Reavers to block it. Magic is one answer to Stegadons. You could also consider adding Potion of Strength to give your BSB S8 shots for a round or putting some bolt shooters in. Fighting characters can also hurt them.

It sounds unlucky to do only four wounds to the Saurus, in three ranks you should do about eight on average. His unit is bigger though and he has a tough character in there. Convocation could help a lot if you can get it off. If possible the LSG should focus on shooting Skinks etc instead of getting into combat. It can be worth hanging back to use your range and magic. Watchtower complicates this I guess.

Well done re Tetto!
mstrdtch
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#4 Post by mstrdtch »

Thanks for the insight, guys!

I will definately give lore of Metal a try. It seems nice idea to cast the Transmutation on a big block of saurus, and the buff spells Enchanted Blades of Aiban, and Glittering Robe, also really seem good.

I am going up for another round of 1600 points vs lizardmen this week, and also next. I am now considering a list where I take:

Noble on Griffon, with BSB
2 units of 25 spearmen, FC;
20 SM, FC
2 units of 5 Reavers, bows

And then for my Lords slot I could take the usual Archmage, a Loremaster (either of these with whatever magic items) OR Eltharion the Grim on foot. Which would suit me better? I know 99% sure I won't be facing a Slann in either of the 2 games. I then have <100 points left to perhaps get a BOTWD or other magic items for my Noble (perhaps a nice magic ring?)

I could also switch the 50 spearmen for 30 LSG (they cost around the same). I thought that spearmen might be better though, because I can move them up with my SM more easily, and i would have more of them.

The Archmage is cool because I can pick 1 lore and have nearly all the spells I want, and with a +4 cast and rerolls from Book of Hoeth it seems I could really augment my army (like mentioned, with Lore of Metal perhaps). However the Loremaster would suit better inside that big unit of Swordmasters, and he is more versatile in spells, though less powerful in magic than the Archmage and less powerful in combat than Eltharion. Eltharion is the best in combat, but the worst in magic, so then I'd have just a single lvl2 mage in my whole army.
SpellArcher
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

I would definitely give the Griffon Swiftsense and Swooping Strike because then he's a big threat to a Stegadon. You could go all in with Star Lance and Potion of Foolhardiness on the BSB, maybe even killing it immediately. Either the Loremaster or Archmage sounds fine. I'd favour the 30 LSG because they can shoot off his support and 30 is more combat-worthy than 25.
mstrdtch
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#6 Post by mstrdtch »

Okay last night played a 1600pts game vs Lizardmen again, this time played by a different person.

I killed 5 cold one riders and 1 skink priest.

I lost my entire army down to the last man.

Soooo thanks for the great advice guys, really wonderful! (lol just kidding :P )

I took the list I talkd about in my last post, including the Archmage, BSB on griffon, 2x25 spearmen, 20 swordmasters, and 10 reavers.

He had something like: 2 skink priests (Heavens and Beasts), Saurus hero, Saurus BSB on cold one, 5 cold ones cavalry, 4 units of 10 skinks with javelins, medium-size unit of saurus warriors, 1 stegadon, 2 salamanders.

I took lore of Metal on my level 4 (as you suggested... :P) and it... was totally underwhelming. Granted, the Searing Doom spell did go off once and that was what killed his Cold One Riders. The Glittering Robe area of effect spell also went off once and it was nice to have a 3+ armour save on everything, but rather meh, because he had vast ranged superiority so in hindsight i wanted to be in CC anyway instead of getting peppered by javelins from all around me.

One big problem was that the Lore of Metal spells are all rather high casting values, and my mage (even with book of hoeth) failed to cast the first spell in his magic phase, and then couldnt cast anything else anymore. This happened for 2 turns. So essentially I paid a whole lot of points for a strong magic character which didnt really do anything.

My opponent gave me the following advices:

- My reavers did not too bad of a job but 10 reavers is just gonna lose vs 40 skinks.

- My 2 units of 25 spearmen should have been put in a single unit.

- Swordmasters arent ideal I should have white lions instead.

- Spearman arent ideal I should have Silver Helms instead at these point values. Only take big infantry blocks at higher point values.

- My archmage should never use lore of Metal he should use lore of Shadow.

- My griffon isnt ideal I should have a dragon instead or nothing at all.

- So basically all the models in my collection (IoB sets) are very weak and I should spend a couple hundred more euros on models which actually work vs lizardmen. :cry:

Still I dont want to give up and neither do I want to buy more models, so I will try again next week (this time against the first opponent again, the new player who also has lizardmen). He will MOST likely play the tetto'ekko + 2 salamanders + 2 stegadon list again.

The only thing I can really change after this last battle is to just make 1 big unit of spearmen/LSG instead of 2 smaller ones, plus choosing lore of shadow (or maybe lore of life?) to just buff that big unit to amazing levels. Using spells like Okkam's Mindrazor, Throne of Vines + Flesh to Stone... though seeing my bad luck i would probably end up not rolling those spells...

Or I could proxy my archmage to be Alarielle (male Elves kinds look like females, right??) for that 5+ wardsave and boost it further with the high magic lore attribute for a nice 2++/3++ on those 50 elves every turn...

... or just buy a dragon model, choose Beasts, and hope for a boosted version of Transformation of Khadon :lol:

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Last edited by mstrdtch on Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
SpellArcher
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

mstrdtch wrote:Soooo thanks for the great advice guys, really wonderful! (lol just kidding )
I know this is joking but you are new to the game, losses will come at first. We all learned like this and it takes time to pick up how the units work together. Some armies can just throw stuff forwards and hope to win. Elves need to rely more on unit combinations and using movement, shooting, magic etc. together. This does not come immediately.

Killing a unit with your magic is not a terrible return. The other guy will be doing his best to stop you. Often you get a single spell through per phase but this might be a slight buff or it might be a real killer. If a player has a Dispel Scroll he can often shut down an entire phase. Shadow is powerful but it's useless against Skinks for example. It's worth trying out different Lores to see which you like. Bear in mind that a fair bit of the cost of an Archmage covers his +4 to dispel and the ability to bring an Arcane Item that helps with dispelling.

When casting, it pays to use a fair number of dice. Searing Doom has a 10+ Casting Value, which means your Archmage needs to roll a 6 or better to cast it. Rolling just two dice risks ending your phase right there. If you roll three, you are very likely to cast and will likely get a higher total, on average 10.5 plus 4, so 14.5. This means the enemy has to commit even more dispel dice if he wants to be sure of dispelling it. You then hit him with another spell.

White Lions are good troops. But Swordmasters are perfectly viable. It's important to remember they get a 6+ Ward save, as well as their armour, against Skink shooting. But your other troops need to help them out. In particular, it's important to have your own shooting to thin those Skinks out. Magic Missiles like Fireball or Fury of Khaine are also deadly to them. Silver Helms are also good because their armour bounces the shots but you shouldn't have to change your whole army. A Griffon is not the strongest choice in the book but it's not for us to tell you to buy a whole new army. Better to try to help you use what you've got more effectively.

Nice board by the way. Spears are not strong enough to take Saurus and Stegadons frontally, especially in 25's, unless other factors (you shot them up first, magic, flank charge etc) are in your favour. The Swordmasters are your main combat unit. I prefer LSG to the Spears here because they can do combat support but they also give you vital shooting, with some range advantage over the Skinks.
theviking
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#8 Post by theviking »

Do you have any other models available? A RBT or two is always useful, as are eagles.

With what you've been using so far I'd probably take the two blocks of seaguard, the swordmasters, BSB on foot, reavers, and use the archmage model as a loremaster. Loremasters are amazing and I recommend the earthing rod as half the miscast table will effectively remove his magic capabilities. You could also try the griffon as an eagle noble, say with a lance, lion cloak, dragon armor, reaver bow, dawnstone should be pretty good.

Try to deploy in the corner so the skinks can't get around the sides, then shoot/magic the skinks and salamanders down to manageable levels. You don't need to kill them all right away just knock down the number of incoming shots and chase them down with reavers. When the saurus/stegadons start closing in you want to get the swordmasters buffed up and charge in, with any luck they'll only need to fight for a few rounds. Elves don't grind well at all so you always want to soften a unit with ranged attacks then finish the job quickly in combat. Also deploy your units 3 deep and however wide that makes them. This way you get the most out of your supporting attacks and bow shots. You can always reform later if you need a rank bonus, but you will do better by maximizing your damage potential from the start.
mstrdtch
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#9 Post by mstrdtch »

Thanks for the advice again people. I have been thinking a lot about how to be more competitive in my next game. My friend hinted that this time he'd really like to try a Slann. Probabily in a block of Temple Guard. This leaves him less points for Stegadons and Salamanders but I calculated in Battlescribe that he can still take a pretty strong, balanced list, even with a Slann and Temple Guard. He could still take 1 salamander and 2 Stegadons, for example.

I study statistics so I spend an afternoon writing some code which is basically a program where the user can give input such as the casting value required, the # of dice rolled, the bonus to cast value, and whether or not a Book of Hoeth is taken. Then it simulates lots and lots of castings and tells me the % chance of casting succesfully, broken concentration, IF, and the average casting power provided it's not a fail or an IF. Now I have a much better idea of how to play with my magic phase. I looked into High MAgic and Shadow Magic and decided that I should tailor my list to whatever Lore I choose to use. Now I have the following idea, any comments?

--For High Magic:
lvl4 Archmage with Book of Hoeth and Talisman of Endurance
BSB on Griffon with Swiftsense, Swooping Strike, Crown of Atrazar, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Strenght
2x5 Reavers with Bows
40 LSG with shields and full command
20 Swordmasters with full command

--For Shadow Magic:
lvl4 Archmage with Book of Hoeth and Talisman of Endurance
BSB on Griffon with Swiftsense, Swooping Strike, Crown of Atrazar, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Strenght
2x5 Reavers with Bows
42 Spearmen with full command
10 Spearmen (bunker for Archmage)
20 Swordmasters with full command

Tactics for High Magic: deploy the LSG 10-wide in a corner, but still towards the enemy since their bows are only 24". Cast Hand of Glory to really boost their BS through the roof. 35 Shots at BS5/6/7 will remove Skinks really fast. Even vs a block of Saurus it could still remove a rank each volley. Hope for Fiery Convocation and cast it on the Temple Guard. Tempest is nice given the opportunity vs skinks and maybe Saurus. Switch Walk between Worlds, Arcane Unfounding and Apotheosis for Soul Quench. the 16+ soul quench is also not too shabby vs Saurus. The unboosted High Magic spells are sometimes easy to cast so I could boost up the LSG to have a high Ward save.

Tactics for Shadow Magic: deploy forward as much as possible. Have the whole army run forwards at breakneck speed. The unit of Spearmen will be in front, the 10 man bunker with archmage close behind. Spearmen MUST be Mindrazor'd. If I don't roll Mindrazor I'm really really screwed. Computer simulations show that Pit of Shades works best and most reliably with the small template when cast vs Saurus Blocks. Also the Miasma + Pit of Shades is useful vs Salamanders and Stegadons. My only damage spells is Pit of Shades and it isnt even too reliable. Again, if I don't roll Mindrazor im screwd.

In both lists: The griffon and the 2 unit of reavers stick close together. They work together to clear 1 flank of skinks entirely. If my griffon noble drinks his potion of strength he has a +5S on the charge and statistically should be able to kill an unwounded Stegadon 64% of the time (i simulated for this). With shadow magic and the Withering spell to reduce the toughness this shoots up to 81/92%, but i'd have to cast that in a phase in which I don't wanna go for Pit of Shades or Okkam's Mindrazor (unless I roll 9+ for Winds of Magic)

I can see the High Magic list working better because I have more spells that work vs the many many skinks I'm likely to face. Also the LSG will really be able to do some damage with Hand of Glory. I can see High Magic failing because it wants me to sit back and wait while I have griffon, reavers and swordmasters who are made for going forward.

I can see the Shadow Magic list working better because I have Mindrazor on that horde of Spearmen. They will kill anything. Also, it synchronizes better with swordmasters, griffon and reavers, who all want to move forward too. I can see Shadow Magic working worse because I might not roll Mindrazor. Furthermore, I'm likely to be killed much more easily by the superior ranged of the Lizardmen. Shadow spells offer no protection from the salamander templates which I'll be running into.

So tell me what you think . I could share the code with which I calculate the stats for magic and the griffon assaulting. I might make a "Warhammer meets machine learning" thread :P
SpellArcher
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

mstrdtch wrote:I can see the High Magic list working better because I have more spells that work vs the many many skinks I'm likely to face. Also the LSG will really be able to do some damage with Hand of Glory. I can see High Magic failing because it wants me to sit back and wait while I have griffon, reavers and swordmasters who are made for going forward.
I prefer the High Magic list because the Shadow version is one-dimensional. It lacks tools to deal with the Skinks and Salamanders. Yes you have fast elements but these are vulnerable to shooting if sent forward unsupported. In contrast, High Magic is a world of pain for Skinks and once you deal with them, you control much better how units engage and in what strength.

I feel you are best off deploying the Archmage in the Swordmasters (7-wide) and upgrading his 5+ Ward to a 4+, which should become a 3+ with Shield of Saphery. The SM's really benefit from the Shield Ward, even a single cast means they get a 5+ Ward vs Skink shooting for example. I would still take World Dragon because Slann magic is horrific and it protects against Miscasts. The combined unit wants to lurk around 18" from the enemy so the Archmage can casts his spells. You are fine not sending the Swordmasters in immediately, they will get there in the end and you do not want to be eating Salamander templates.

You would need to cut LSG to afford the above upgrades. TBH 30 is plenty because they can move freely and all shoot when 10-wide, 40 can be cumbersome. 24" sounds like a long range but it isn't always, they may need to maneouvre. I take the point about Hand of Glory on them, could be very effective. I'd be tempted to split them into smaller units (only musicians needed really) to give you more choice of target selection. Possibly a 20 for Hand of Glory plus a 10. Both ways have merits.
mstrdtch
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#11 Post by mstrdtch »

SpellArcher wrote:I prefer the High Magic list because the Shadow version is one-dimensional. It lacks tools to deal with the Skinks and Salamanders. Yes you have fast elements but these are vulnerable to shooting if sent forward unsupported. In contrast, High Magic is a world of pain for Skinks and once you deal with them, you control much better how units engage and in what strength.
I can see your point, it is actually what I thought myself to be the big con of the Shadow list: i am forced to go forward straight into his salamanders and skink ranged fire, with no spells to protect myself from that. BUT. Two questions regarding your comment: (1) don't you think that in the Shadow list, the 10 reavers and Griffon might be enough to keep the skinks occupied? And (2) if sending half my army forward and keeping the other one half-back, as High Magic version of my list is wanting to do, won't that just make it easier for his army to eat mine one half at a time?
SpellArcher wrote:I feel you are best off deploying the Archmage in the Swordmasters (7-wide) and upgrading his 5+ Ward to a 4+, which should become a 3+ with Shield of Saphery. The SM's really benefit from the Shield Ward, even a single cast means they get a 5+ Ward vs Skink shooting for example. I would still take World Dragon because Slann magic is horrific and it protects against Miscasts. The combined unit wants to lurk around 18" from the enemy so the Archmage can casts his spells. You are fine not sending the Swordmasters in immediately, they will get there in the end and you do not want to be eating Salamander templates.

Good point about the Archmage and BOTWD. Essentially it is a matter of who do I want to keep alive longest: a big unit of LSG with lots of shots, or that glass cannon Swordmasters unit.
SpellArcher wrote:You would need to cut LSG to afford the above upgrades. TBH 30 is plenty because they can move freely and all shoot when 10-wide, 40 can be cumbersome. 24" sounds like a long range but it isn't always, they may need to maneouvre. I take the point about Hand of Glory on them, could be very effective. I'd be tempted to split them into smaller units (only musicians needed really) to give you more choice of target selection. Possibly a 20 for Hand of Glory plus a 10. Both ways have merits.
Indeed I'd have to cut points to upgrade the Ward save on my Archmage and add in that BoTWD, and indeed it would have to go from my core. I can't shrink down to 30LSG as then i wouldnt have enough points in Core anymore (25% minimum). I could do with 34 LSG and drop the musician on the Swordmasters. But there is one big thing I (Despite my noobishness) disagree with you vehemently: I would never again want to field smaller units instead of 1 big one. See my previous posts on why that was a bad idea for me in the past #-o

So then my altered lists for High Magic would be:

--For High Magic:
lvl4 Archmage with Book of Hoeth and Talisman of Preservation
BSB on Griffon with Swiftsense, Swooping Strike, Crown of Atrazar, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Strenght
2x5 Reavers with Bows
34 LSG with shields and full command
20 Swordmasters with champion and Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon

Now I'm not sure if this is going to perform as well as my previously mentioned Shadow list... I'm really scared that somehow his skinks can get within 12" from multiple sides, forcing me to send my Griffon and Reavers after them, leaving them an easy target for magic and CC units, who then can mop up my LSG and SM units for dinner. I mean, is ~30 S3 bow shots and a High Magic Archmage really enough to shoot/magic his army to be weak enough to later deal with them in CC without any CC buffs such as Mindrazor?

I feel that, perhaps, it might be better to take the Shadow list, because sending my whole army forwards at the same time results in target saturation and panick on his side, combined with the fact that he'll be very scared of letting go a Pit of Shades against his Slann Unit or something. Though I don't know what would happen if I don't get off Mindrazor...
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

The problem is that both Griffon and Reavers have virtually no saving throws, which makes the barrage of Poison shots (watch out for Stand and Shoot) from the Skinks especially dangerous. T5 is irrelevant when those 6's start coming up. Whereas archery outranges them, a Hand of Glory'd unit will decimate Skinks. A 2D6 S4 Magic Missile will kill 5 or 6 on average. With the High Magic list you don't want to send your combat troops in immediately. Instead, keep them back with your support until shooting/magic has done a job for you.

LSG are in general not highly regarded because they don't fight well and Archers outrange them. But here they are useful because you need to shoot Skinks, both to reduce the damage they do to you and to stop them redirecting your units. But I would still be happier taking losses with these guys than the Swordmasters. When the Temple Guard come knocking you need good fighters and in enough numbers to win a grind. Shield of Saphery helps with that.

Sometimes you'll want small units and sometimes big ones. When and where you want each is an endless debate. If your experience is telling you to go big then do that, it's crucial to back yourself. If you need clarification on stuff, we can help. But playing your own way is vital. If gut feeling is pushing you towards the Shadow list, try it out. You can always change it for your next game.
matrim
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#13 Post by matrim »

I think you're mixing the use of magic a little. shadow is usually best suited for stand off/shoot lists and would work great against lizardmen. High is an aggressive school because it allows you to build up your ward save (SMs in your case) and close in as quick as possible. Even hand of glory would allow LSG to move and shoot easily. Magic missile has short range etc. So may be you can reconsider how you approach the magic selection.

having a large block of LSG may give you confidence but it also means that you have to shoot at one target each turn. so your shooting will be less deterrent. two blocks of 20 is more useful and will allow you to protect flanks.

I'd say divide the LSG into two and decide which school you'll go with. If High you need to be aggressive. Not foolhardy though, if you push forward all together his salamanders will have a party. Rather try to aim for opportunities where you'll get the charge and win (overrun into next unit), aka multiple charges.

it is all a learning curve, and everyone can decide how they'd like to use a specific magic school but do read the spells carefully and see how you can make the most of them.

If shadow, then sit back and cast spells like miasma to slow him down, reduce his toughness for easy shooting, cast the 5th spell for killing him in large quantities (lizardmen are slow). keep SM and Griffon as area control (i.e. if he comes close double charge) and use mind razor on LSG or even SM when at CC. If you're entering CC before round 4 then you're not making the most of your shooting.
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#14 Post by SpellArcher »

The problem I can see with building a Shadow shooting list is that there are no RBT to add weight to the archery. Possibly with 40 LSG and Reaver Bow BSB but Withering doesn't add much vs Skinks and they need to be dealt with early. Pit will be good against the slower stuff, it's true. Mindrazor as ever could be a game winner but it's often a case of whether you can roll that 26% IF on six dice because otherwise he'll probably scroll it.

You can be aggressive with High Magic lists but it depends on your exact build and the enemy's IMHO. The watchword is flexibility.
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#15 Post by matrim »

Spellarcher,you're right about the limited use of shadow without RBTs, shooting will not reliably take out big nasties without them. I think it'll still be useful if played cautiously with the LSG list, well at least I'd expect it to be more useful in a waiting game then an agressive one.

High shines when you have a unit that can reliably take the fight to the oponent imo. The wardsave on SM will not be that useful unles you utilise their 2 st5 attacks. If you walk them up to opponent while making use of increased saves against shooting then you'll reap the benefits. However to prevent being swarmed in the middle you'd need to protect the flanks/rear two units of 20 LSG should be able to do so. And this way you'd still have 40 shots but you could attack two different units instead of one. Don't be hung up on the -1 penalty, HoG will improve one unit (and if you cast the big one that unit will be able to move more next turn = increased range).

Still if in doubt listen to spellarcher; he's been giving me advice since I started. :)
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Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#16 Post by SpellArcher »

Thank you Matrim.

:)

Yeah, there could be some mileage in it. Pit is a threat to Temple Guard (and especially Initiative 1 Saurus) and might draw the Dispel Scroll, making Mindrazor more dangerous. Withering could help against Salamanders. The Shadow combat build is more of a bludgeon.

I think there's no question the High Swordmasters would see combat at some point. For me the issue is which army has more interest in pushing for combat and which wants to delay and use shooting/magic. Either way, one army will force combat at some point. Of course, they may want to attack on the flank while holding back in the centre, or vice versa.
mcmulligan
Posts: 132
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#17 Post by mcmulligan »

I have lizardmen as my second army (although chronologically my first) after my high elves.

As you play more, you'll get more familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of various armies, but to shorten your learning curve a bit as far as lizardmen go, here's a great big juicy weakness of that army (especially the way your opponents set up their armies)

Death Magic.


Seriously, that's it. Scares the hell out of lizardmen players (only slightly less than a dwarf player, which happens to be my 3rd army).

The death snipes are fantastic at wiping out those stegadons (who are only LD 6), as well as the salamanders (also LD 6). Lowering skink LD by 3 (on an already pitiful 5, even cold blooded) will almost certainly have them panicing off the board if you then target them with your bows. Tetto'ekko is hugely vulnerable to all 3 of the death snipes (LD 5, T2, S3, and only a 5++).

And the big one, purple sun. If you see a nice big juicy block of initiative 1 saurus walking around, hit them with a purple sun and watch 83% of them drop in one turn.

Seriously, that one change in your army list, and you'll notice HUGE improvement in your results against lizardmen, in fact its one of the reasons people complain so much about magic being broken in 8th. A good lizardman player can avoid a lot of what I listed above but it sounds like you're all pretty new, so this will at the minimum level the playing field for you.
mstrdtch
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#18 Post by mstrdtch »

mcmulligan wrote:The death snipes are fantastic at wiping out those stegadons (who are only LD 6), as well as the salamanders (also LD 6). Lowering skink LD by 3 (on an already pitiful 5, even cold blooded) will almost certainly have them panicing off the board if you then target them with your bows. Tetto'ekko is hugely vulnerable to all 3 of the death snipes (LD 5, T2, S3, and only a 5++).
Thanks for the advice. Seems solid. One question though. Cant the skinks and Stegadon use the Inspiring Presence of their general. Yesterday night he had a LD10 Slann BSB. So i'd be Spirit Leeching gainst Ld10.

I lost the game horribly but im in class now, I'll elaborate later.
mcmulligan
Posts: 132
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Tactics vs. Lizardmen?

#19 Post by mcmulligan »

This is from the FAQ (before they, and all of 8th got nuked by GW) v1.7

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on you unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?

A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.


So in short, his LD10 Slann isn't going to be helping the steg against your snipes, and will only be helping the skinks if he's within 12" of them, which although possible, should be unlikely considering what skinks are normally used for. Also, pay attention to how he got to LD10, either he has the LD banner on the Slann himself, in which case no other unit can use his inspiring presence, or he has it on the unit the Slann is with, which only the TG can use it. If he's sitting in a block of TG, that's where your purple sun goes (although they are I2 instead of I1 like normal saurus, it still pounds the crap out of them, but the Slann also automatically passes his look out sir).
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