Star Dragon List - 2500 Swedish Comp

[John Rainbow]

I have a 2500 Swedish comp event coming up and have no real ideas about what is viable so I am looking for some advice. So far this is a list I like:

Prince on Star Dragon + Star Lance, 4++, Ench. Shield & OTS
Archmage(4)[High] + dispel scroll
Alith Anar

BSB + Reaver Bow, Po.Str., Charmed Shield, Halberd

18 Archers + full command
6 Helms + sh, full command
6 Helms + sh, champ & std
5 Reavers + muso

20 Phoenix Guard + full command & Razor Banner

3 x RBT

Total: 2500 pts
Comp Score: 12.0

Link to comp pack:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 3&t=102988

So what are your thoughts? My main concerns are... protecting the lvl4 and Alith as they are a lot of points in relatively frail bodies. Alith does however take up a bunch of points that can be protected and would otherwise cost me comp points and more importantly is effectively a 4th RBT for cheap. Do you think this list concept can work? i.e. hold back and shoot then punch when they get up close with the dragon and PG.

Note that because of the comp I have some odd selections i.e. the core is minimized to 626 pts and all units are minimized in terms of comp - an extra archer for example would be a 4 point comp hit due to the larger unit size and the increase in the overall shooty-ness of the army.

[SpellArcher]

No Ward on the Archmage John?

[John Rainbow]

No Ward on the Archmage John?

No. The only real option I can see to get this in is to drop Alith and then use the comp points I would recover (9 I think) to get the ward save and to pump up the PG numbers. Think this is worth it? I would like a larger PG unit if possible. I suppose I could also drop an RBT if that is a better choice?

Do you think High is a good lore here or could something like metal work well?

[SpellArcher]

I'm thinking if you're running High, the guy probably wants to be advancing to get into range which probably means being in the PG which probably means getting into combat at some point. I like High for the shooting and the Dragon (and the 3++ PG) though. Pumping up might be an idea.

[Seredain]

I think SA's on to something, John. After the star dragon this list is all about the phoenix guard - they're your only other decent combat unit and, crucially, the only unit with any serious steadfast staying power. If your star dragon is looking to get stuck into ranked units, these guys are going to need to be pushing forwards and putting themselves in real harm's way. Getting the 3+ ward save as an option - since you've already take high magic - feels like a must, and taking the extra numbers would feel like a very good idea too, considering how important they are in the context of the list. 23 FC with a Tal of Preservation archmage would feel like a very good idea. I also think you should get the ring of fury in there too- it's a very real boost to your ranged power and a free ward buff for only 25 points. One dice per phase for a 3+ chance at 2d6 hits is epic, and since you've gone fairly cav heavy in the core section, the extra chaff removal could come in really handy.

I'm guessing 4 bolt throwers is not an option in Swedish?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

4 RBT's is the option in Swedish in general but it adds to the number of shots after which the penalties hit the score. The question is how the score is applied and what are the brackets?

[Dragon fire]

I`ve run the reaver bow bsb beside alith anar. I found alith to have the high strength shots when needed so i changed bsbs gear to reaverbow, merwyrm shield and golden crown. I think it worked well. That will push the AM to 2nd rank and bsb will still be durable for cc.
I don`t know how alith will work alongside a dragon, but he really suprised me. He was very good against the empire bus, MC and MI. All things that i think we struggle with.

[Andros123]

What kind of line of sight rules, are they using?
Because if it is true line of sight, I don't think the star dragon is the way to go, since there is just nowhere to hide it.

Other then that I like your list. I think it has enough shooting to draw out most opponents, and the star dragon makes for an excellent counter charge element.

Even though I like Alith Anar, I don't think he is worth it. Especially if it means you can't get a 4++ on your archmage. I don't know how exactly you are planning on playing this list, but as it is right now the Archmage needs to be in the archer bunker. Otherwise his presence in the phoenix guard, will force you to play that unit very defensively, which will be detrimental in many situations. If he is with the archers, I wouldn't go for high magi because if its short range. Maybe heavens ( bubble harmonic on Alith and bolt throwers) or metal. If metal I think you should drop the pot.str. and charmed shield on the BSB and give him Khaines ring of fury to have that magic missile for elven matchups.

If it was me I would give the archmage a 4++, run him on high magic and just see those 3++ phoenix guard run across the board and melt through armies

[Curu Olannon]

I like the concept. Looks similar to what I'd try and run under Swecomp.

What I do miss however is MR for PG. They need MR2 to be sort of semi-BOTWD-protected. MR1 could do I as well as I suppose as you'll mostly get a spell through, but in my experience the 15 points saved is negligible.

What I would like to know however is what this comps, what changes you could make to manipulate its scoring, the brackets being used and how the comp differences affect the games and your score.

[John Rainbow]

I like the concept. Looks similar to what I'd try and run under Swecomp.

What I do miss however is MR for PG. They need MR2 to be sort of semi-BOTWD-protected. MR1 could do I as well as I suppose as you'll mostly get a spell through, but in my experience the 15 points saved is negligible.

What I would like to know however is what this comps, what changes you could make to manipulate its scoring, the brackets being used and how the comp differences affect the games and your score.

The list currently comps at a 12. The tournament uses Swedish comp v16 (link in OP) and limits comp to be within the range of 8-14. For every tenth of a comp point difference in pairings, you get 10 VPs bonus (so a 13 playing an 11 would get +200 VPs). Scenarios are pretty standard with nothing too wacky. They also use some ETC rules i.e. infinitely high hills, etc so the dragon is a go!

The easiest unit to drop would be an RBT. This would save me a chunk of comp points and allow actual points to be spent on the mage (getting a 5++ or MR) and adding a couple of PG. Doing this the list would probably comp closer to a 13 so would actually be a 'softer' list. I am also ok with dropping Alith to get some other stuff in there and making the list 'harder' but I don't really have any idea of what comp scores to expect other than at the US masters, the average comp was an 11.5 or similar.

What kind of line of sight rules, are they using?
Because if it is true line of sight, I don't think the star dragon is the way to go, since there is just nowhere to hide it.

They use ETC LoS so terrain is in effect infinitely high. It is very conducive to running a dragon! I should have mentioned this in the OP - sorry.

Other then that I like your list. I think it has enough shooting to draw out most opponents, and the star dragon makes for an excellent counter charge element.

Even though I like Alith Anar, I don't think he is worth it. Especially if it means you can't get a 4++ on your archmage. I don't know how exactly you are planning on playing this list, but as it is right now the Archmage needs to be in the archer bunker. Otherwise his presence in the phoenix guard, will force you to play that unit very defensively, which will be detrimental in many situations. If he is with the archers, I wouldn't go for high magi because if its short range. Maybe heavens ( bubble harmonic on Alith and bolt throwers) or metal. If metal I think you should drop the pot.str. and charmed shield on the BSB and give him Khaines ring of fury to have that magic missile for elven matchups.

If it was me I would give the archmage a 4++, run him on high magic and just see those 3++ phoenix guard run across the board and melt through armies ?

I see your points here. Do you think I should drop something to get the archmage a 5++? Currently the prince has the 4++ talisman.

Alith is very cheap in terms of comp in the current draft. He is effectively another RBT in this list for much, much less comp than an actual RBT. He also has some other benefits but I agree that in some ways he is very expensive to field.

I`ve run the reaver bow bsb beside alith anar. I found alith to have the high strength shots when needed so i changed bsbs gear to reaverbow, merwyrm shield and golden crown. I think it worked well. That will push the AM to 2nd rank and bsb will still be durable for cc.
I don`t know how alith will work alongside a dragon, but he really suprised me. He was very good against the empire bus, MC and MI. All things that i think we struggle with.

Interesting ideas as this would also save comp points (Reaver Bow + Pot.Str is comped as a combination). Thanks for the advice!

4 RBT's is the option in Swedish in general but it adds to the number of shots after which the penalties hit the score. The question is how the score is applied and what are the brackets?

I've linked to the comp pack in the OP. 4 RBTs costs a lot on comp! It would be 40 comp points and use up all of my missile allowance i.e. any extra shooting above these would cost me on comp (1 more comp point for every 2 bows) and Alith and the Reaver bow would be tougher to include. I could maybe switch to spears in core with 4 RBTs though.

I'm thinking if you're running High, the guy probably wants to be advancing to get into range which probably means being in the PG which probably means getting into combat at some point. I like High for the shooting and the Dragon (and the 3++ PG) though. Pumping up might be an idea.

I think SA's on to something, John. After the star dragon this list is all about the phoenix guard - they're your only other decent combat unit and, crucially, the only unit with any serious steadfast staying power. If your star dragon is looking to get stuck into ranked units, these guys are going to need to be pushing forwards and putting themselves in real harm's way. Getting the 3+ ward save as an option - since you've already take high magic - feels like a must, and taking the extra numbers would feel like a very good idea too, considering how important they are in the context of the list. 23 FC with a Tal of Preservation archmage would feel like a very good idea. I also think you should get the ring of fury in there too- it's a very real boost to your ranged power and a free ward buff for only 25 points. One dice per phase for a 3+ chance at 2d6 hits is epic, and since you've gone fairly cav heavy in the core section, the extra chaff removal could come in really handy.

I'm guessing 4 bolt throwers is not an option in Swedish?

I agree with these points assuming I stick with high magic (I want to as Shadow, Life, Death are all comped more heavily). The only issue here is that the prince has the 4++ ward as he wants the enchanted shield. Is a 5++ enough?

See above for info. on RBTs - it can be done depending on what else is in the list and what comp score you want.

[SpellArcher]

Is the 2+ AS essential John? You could go with 4+ Ward armour on the Prince.

AA is a BS 7/ S7 mobile bolt shooter who can arguably Stand and Shoot but yeah, he's a lot of points.

[teep]

I think that High Magic is a good fit for your list, especially with Apotheosis for obvious reasons and WBW/HoG to help
the PG to keep up with your dragon's speed if need be.

[John Rainbow]

I've been thinking about downgrading the prince to an anmointed on frosty. It saves approx. 100pts and is a lot more defensive which fits the idea of the list a bit better maybe? It also provides the points for a few other things like extra PG and the 4++ on the mage. I'll try making a lost and post it up!

[John Rainbow]

So a new list taking into all the comments and some improvements:

2500pt Swedish List, Comp Score 11.6

Annointed on Frostheart + Giant Blade, Ench. Shield & OTS
Archmage(4)[High] + dispel scroll, 4++, Khaine's Ring
Alith Anar

BSB + Reaver Bow, Merwyrm Shield, Golden Crown (could also go on Annointed)

18 Archers + full command
6 Helms + sh, full command
6 Helms + sh, champ & std
5 Reavers + muso

23 Phoenix Guard + full command & Razor Banner

3 x RBT

As a reminder this tourny uses the v16 Swedish rules and is 2500pts. Comp is limited between 8-14 and there are no really wacky scenarios - pretty standard fare i.e. Blood and Glory (but not game ending), kill all core, etc.

[Dragon fire]

It looks like a very interesting list to play. It have something for all phases.
I think I would put the golden crown on the Annointed. Being able to take the first canon ball or RBT single shot with no worries is big. Otherwise the list looks good to me.
I have myself recently tried the annointed on frosthearts (although in an all out offensive list). I was positively surprised. His 2+ is essentially a 1+ with the blizzard aura. And afterwards he holds a 4++. I took a charge from 5 morghast models. I started making 4 wounds. They then made 0 wounds. I admit that I was slightly lucky but the combination of the two is so durable.
It also feels so good when you hit a 5 on that wardsave vs. the canon ball

[matrim]

I'd say be vary of your comp score, it is better to be as close to the high end as possible. That way in most games you'll start with VP advantage forcing your opponent to o something.

I found RBTs are not worth the extra comp scores, 2 is enough with AA and Sisters. I usually run a Lv4 Metal in SC because it is undercomped (I haven't checked the latest version though) Lv4 can take the fury ring giving the 3++ to PG.

Your list is pretty good just looking at ways to increase SC points. That's all.

[John Rainbow]

It looks like a very interesting list to play. It have something for all phases.
I think I would put the golden crown on the Annointed. Being able to take the first canon ball or RBT single shot with no worries is big. Otherwise the list looks good to me.
I have myself recently tried the annointed on frosthearts (although in an all out offensive list). I was positively surprised. His 2+ is essentially a 1+ with the blizzard aura. And afterwards he holds a 4++. I took a charge from 5 morghast models. I started making 4 wounds. They then made 0 wounds. I admit that I was slightly lucky but the combination of the two is so durable.
It also feels so good when you hit a 5 on that wardsave vs. the canon ball

Interesting! I've been thinking about either downgrading to a flamespyre or upgrading to a dragon so its good to hear you did well with the frosty!

I'd say be vary of your comp score, it is better to be as close to the high end as possible. That way in most games you'll start with VP advantage forcing your opponent to o something.

I found RBTs are not worth the extra comp scores, 2 is enough with AA and Sisters. I usually run a Lv4 Metal in SC because it is undercomped (I haven't checked the latest version though) Lv4 can take the fury ring giving the 3++ to PG.

Your list is pretty good just looking at ways to increase SC points. That's all.

I can see your point about metal and I was considering it - its just that in some matchups it is a next to useless lore (O&G, VC, Skaven) and High is just so much more versatile. Not to mention that I will cast at a +5 due to the blessing.

I agree about the comp idea however. Do you think it is worthwhile to drop an RBT for 5 sisters though (both are 70ts)? I tend to think not. For example sisters are great against trolls. Assuming they are at long range (and maybe move) 5 of them should score just over a single wound on average - is this enough from a unit that is relatively easy to kill with a single magic missile?

[SpellArcher]

+5 to cast is really good.

Using WE lvl4's in woods it just lets your dice reach that little bit further and causes real dispelling problems.

[matrim]

Metal is not a one trick pony either but definitely not as flexible as High. Depends on the meta but WE WoC Empire are popular choices here and a flaming can opener is a reliable tool
5 sisters will struggle to deliver a RBT output but compwise they make sense and also you can use them to defend RBTs as a director Admittedly I take 10 model unit
I'm looking to benefit as much from the comp as possible sisters may not fit in your strategy but is there nothing else that can provide part of the RBT job at a lower comp? a chariot can give some board control and protect a flank may be?

[John Rainbow]

I tried the list out against a comp score 11.7 Ogres list last night. I played:

Annointed on Frostheart + Giant Blade, Ench. Shield & OTS
Archmage(4)[High] + dispel scroll, 4++, Khaine's Ring
Alith Anar

BSB + Reaver Bow, Merwyrm Shield, Golden Crown (could also go on Annointed)

18 Archers + full command
6 Helms + sh, full command
6 Helms + sh, champ & std
5 Reavers + muso

23 Phoenix Guard + full command & Razor Banner

3 x RBT

And he played:

Slaughtermaster(4)[Maw] + 4++, Charmed Shield
Bruiser BSB + Razor Banner
Bruiser General + Dragonhelm
Butcher(2)[Beasts] + scroll

9 Guts
9 Ogres
6 Maneaters + poison and swiftstride
3 Leadbelchers

3 Cats
1 Cannon

In essence, I played like a chump (I haven't played since January 10th - that's my excuse! ) and got roflstomped. He got first turn and ran up at me while cutting down a bit of my shooting. He got into CC with me and blew me out. I deployed terribly and played worse. The only way from here is up!