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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:14 pm 
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Hello guys.

So I really can't rap my head around how to beat the following dwarf list:

Runesmith - Rune that dispels a spell and potentially eats it on a 4+
Runesmith - Rune that dispels a spell and potentially eats it on a 4+
Thane BSB master rune of Grugni

25-30 quarrellers w. great weapon
10-15 quarrellers w. great weapon

Cannon Rune of forging
Cannon Rune of forging
Cannon Rune of forging and flaming

5xgyrocopter (yeah 5!)

2xgyrobombers

2x10 iron drakes


That list is just the bane of elves in general. The gyros are t5, which makes them so hard to kill, even for our bolt throwers, which is btw blown away by cannons turn 2.
If you try to rush him, the gyro copters will double flee you all day, while you get murdered by his other ranged stuff.

How would you approach such a game?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:49 am 
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One thing comes to mind immediately.
Andros123 wrote:
5xgyrocopter (yeah 5!)
2xgyrobombers
If you try to rush him, the gyro copters will double flee you all day, while you get murdered by his other ranged stuff.

Positioning will be everything, because its hard to screen with such small footprints. You get to make one of them flee and then if there is a gap anywhere you can fit through, redirect through that gap.

Also charge with multiple units. For example, a small unit of lances (2x3 silver helms are terrific units), a frost bird or an infantry block can charge. If your frost bird charges you force 2 choppers to flee or 1 to hold and die. Any time a unit sticks in melee, that's less shooting and fewer targets for your opponent.

Just to get my facts straight, gryocopters have the following right? (Edit: Corrected)
* 10'' fly with march, cannot shoot if it marches
* S3 Armor Piercing flame template with no overshoot/misfire
* T5 and 3w
* They suck in melee and can't shoot in melee

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:18 am 
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Quote:
Just to get my facts straight, gryocopters have the following right? (Edit: Corrected)
* 10'' fly with march, cannot shoot if it marches
* S3 Armor Piercing flame template with no overshoot/misfire
* T5 and 3w
* They suck in melee and can't shoot in melee


Yes that is correct and then they have a 4+ armour save.

Running small units of silver helms is a very good idea i think. They can't take a charge from them, so they are forced to flee, which mean less shooting on our fragile elves :) .
However I'm not really sure of how to approach such a game. Would you go for killing all gyroes or just ignore them and go for the rest of the army? Maybe the cannons so the frostheart can do its thing?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:55 am 
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I would definitely go for killing the gyros. It's 650 pts of models that your opponent is sending closest to your army and will shoot you if not dealt with.

I think I would approach the game similar to how I approach most gunlines, advancing and setting yourself up to eventually charge.

It would be great to deal with the cannons, though it will be understandably very difficult in some games. He can simply set them behind his line to protect them from anything mobile enough to reach the board edge quickly, not to mention gyros that can take pot shots at any eagle or cav bus that charges forward. You likely won't be shooting them because between toughness/armor/cover they are poor targets and you want to focus on the gyros for shooting. Maybe a lucky 6-diced purple sun or pit of shades can take some/all of them out.

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Ah, Floorhammer. A time honored tradition. Sadly, I no longer play since my brother tripped and right-angled the spears of a 15-man regiment.
-Original Dragon Prince, July 2011


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:49 am 
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I don't know if what I am saying is right (so keep that in mind)
but I have seen many fights where copters easely die due to the lore of death (signature spell) so bringing a death mage can be very helpfull.
then i think your opponent did not read the rules of the runes, cause 2 cannons both engraved with a single rune of forging isn't allowed (thought it was called rule of jalousy).
next I would say that shooting is the key, although copters and bombers are though when shooting at. or bringing your own flyers but phoenixes are expensive and other flyers are easy destroyed.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:38 pm 
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I think the 3rd canon can easily take a 5 or 10 pt rune to make taking the 3rd rune of forging legal?

But yeah, I think shooting is a great way to deal with the gyros, and next after that is probably just forcing them to keep back with your cav and your phoenix if you happen to have one in the list.

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Ah, Floorhammer. A time honored tradition. Sadly, I no longer play since my brother tripped and right-angled the spears of a 15-man regiment.
-Original Dragon Prince, July 2011


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:08 pm 
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I'm planning on a frostheart, bolt throwers, white lions with world banner, archers + silver helms i core. Magic wise i'm not sure yet. I just know that I at least want a loremaster with the book of hoeth. So he will probably be alongside a lvl. 4 archmage with high or light magic. Maybe heavens.

The dwarf list is just from memory, so there might be some mistakes.

With regards to shooting. The bolt throwers can take down some of the gyroes, but I'm very afraid of his cannons. Do you know whether dwarf cannons are the ones that only shoot 48 or 60 inches?

Death is also a pretty good counter the gyroes, although I think they all have LD9, which is the same as my loremaster.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:52 pm 
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Andros123 wrote:
I'm planning on a frostheart, bolt throwers, white lions with world banner, archers + silver helms i core. Magic wise i'm not sure yet. I just know that I at least want a loremaster with the book of hoeth. So he will probably be alongside a lvl. 4 archmage with high or light magic. Maybe heavens.

The dwarf list is just from memory, so there might be some mistakes.

With regards to shooting. The bolt throwers can take down some of the gyroes, but I'm very afraid of his cannons. Do you know whether dwarf cannons are the ones that only shoot 48 or 60 inches?

Death is also a pretty good counter the gyroes, although I think they all have LD9, which is the same as my loremaster.


The cannons are 48", I think empire great cannons fire 60".

Heavens would be a good fit and comet a great spell if you can get it off without it being destroyed by the runesmiths, plus the heavens lore attribute will cause more damage to the gyrocopters. Purple sun from death is always useful against dwarfs, but heavens with comet, thunderbolt and possibly chain lightning can do a lot of ranged damage and double iceshard could be really useful as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:25 pm 
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How many points?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:04 pm 
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I play a similar type of list with Dwarves, and it can be a very tough army to handle if you're not prepared or used to it. I'd say the following are good against it:

- Repeater Bolt Throwers as long as they are hidden from the cannons
- Alith Anar is beastly here, capable of taking down one Gyro per turn
- A character with Reaver Bow + Potion of Strength is also helpful (Both Reaver and Alith have the advantage of being hard to snipe for cannons)
- Lore of Heavens is good, but the double spell-eaters can really ruin your day by consuming key spells. Bother!

The problem with this type of list is that it's really hard to advance, but unlike a normal Dwarf gunline, this Gyro Airforce can bring the fight to you. I'd advice you to not try and push- Gyros will burn you, and Quarrellers will shoot you.

Key to nullifying this list is to take out the Gyrocopters, one by one. If he wants points, he has got to come to you. Try to place RBTs out of view or range of the Cannons, but so that they cover the angles of approaching Gyros regardless. Spam the Comet at his warmachines, or the chain lightning/thunderbolt on Gyros. On average, one thunderbolt/chain lightning should kill one Gyro per hit, which ain't bad at all.

Gyros are 80/100P, Gyrobombers are 125P. Take the latter out first.

Easier said than done, of course. With so many single drops, the Dwarf army often outdeploys the opponent. I'd try to get RBTs as late as possible though, because they're key.

If your spells are eaten, well... you're out of luck, sadly.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:04 am 
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Some other magic considerations

Fire: flaming sword makes archers 2x as effective against T5 targets, magic missiles can hurt choppers
Metal: searing doom and metal dogs can hurt choppers, enchanted blades help large archer units hit and break armor
Beasts: Amber spear can break a chopper, savage beast of horrors on a character with reaver bow is great, wyssans wildform can help survive steam guns

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Ah, Floorhammer. A time honored tradition. Sadly, I no longer play since my brother tripped and right-angled the spears of a 15-man regiment.
-Original Dragon Prince, July 2011


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:40 am 
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Code:
How many points?

2400 pts.

Thanks guys for all your input! Definitely gave me some food for thought. I'll probably play the game today, so I'll return with a short summary :) .

As some of you already mentioned, it seems that the key here, is to shoot down those copters, before they really start to harass my blocks. Therefor I will also try my best to deploy my bolt throwers more than 48'' away from his cannons.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:38 pm 
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Okay, so I finished this one day tournament and faced the gyro show on turn one.

As some of you mentioned, pushing at his gunline, would just be suicide. I realized that quickly. So by combined efforts of my magic (he eat 2 spells) and shooting i managed to kill all his gyroes and bombers except for 2 gyroes, both on one wound each :evil: .

At the end it was a 10-10 draw. Out of 28 white lions, only 6 was left. Those teardrop templates are just cruel. His 3 cannons basically forced my frostheart to stay behind a hill for the entire game.
I was very happy with the result, and my opponent also told me, he was kind of disappointed as the matchup was clearly in his favour. Unless I would have been extremely lucky and remove all gyroes by turn 4, maybe there would be an opportunity for a massacre, but otherwise I think it is a very hard list for elves to play against in general.
Btw, turns out that dwarf cannons shoot 60'', ouch :( .

I proceeded to win my last two games at the tournament. So all in all it was a great experience and a pleasure to play against some very decent ETC players :) .


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:02 pm 
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Congratulations! It is great to see that the ideas suggested by others were implemented in real games and that it worked! I think it is a significant progress to obtain a draw in a difficult match up. Based on that you can now work on ideas on how to actually beat such army :)

Well done! =D>

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:07 am 
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Thanks :) .
Yes indeed, it was really nice benefit from the wise council of Ulthuan. Hopefully next time, I can pull out a victory!


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