How to build a Swed Comp List?

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ArcaneSnow
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How to build a Swed Comp List?

#1 Post by ArcaneSnow »

Not really sure where to put an post like this, seems like army tactics?

I've played a couple tourneys by now but all of them are uncomped, so I never really looked into what comp is like or the rules I need to abide by.
However, a upcoming tourney is switching over to run Swedish comp and now I have no idea what to do or how to build a list.

I just did some reading up and found the newest comp pack and put in one of my lists into the numbers and came out with a -2...
Tournament also specified that they are not allowing special/named characters, so another list of mine that runs allarielle and teclis is out of the question.

So before jumping to square one and trying to mindlessly build a list to fit in between a 8-14 comp score.. can I get some advice on how to plan out building a swed comp list?
Having some Do's and Do not's would be nice. The general lists I've run is either heavy fliers or lionstar, neither of which I can use anymore. Any other good combos?

Thanks.
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Rabidnid
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#2 Post by Rabidnid »

Its all about moderation.

Don't have more than 18 of anything.
Don't run the Book
Don't run the BotWD

This is one of my 2400 point lists, just to give you an idea.

Characters
LM with talisman of preservation, scroll & sword of antiheroes
Annointed with giant blade and ruby ring
BSB with halberd and armour of destiny

Core
6 SH with shields, muso and champ
6 SH with shields, muso and champ
10 spears with FC and gleaming pennant
5 reavers with bows
5 reavers with bows

Special
18 PG with FC and razor banner
18 PG with FC and banner of discipline

Rare
8 sisters
8 sisters
RBT
Eagle with ASF


This has a comp of 16
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John Rainbow
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#3 Post by John Rainbow »

ArcaneSnow
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#4 Post by ArcaneSnow »

John, that was a very interesting article. Thanks for that.

Playing in moderation is hard coming from uncomped, but definitely something I need to look into.
That's a very different lists from the ones I'm used to seeing, so thanks for that as well.
I'm used to bringing big hard hitting things. My archmages always run book, my infantry is usually 20+ strong with Botwd, my rbt usually come in 4s, and I love my flying birds.
Everything I like to play has huge penalties, so.. not too sure whats fun to play with this system.

That article had an interesting question that I was thinking about as well. "What if my opponent brought a Demon Prince?"
I can barely handle that thing regularly, not to mention in a comped game. haha
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Axiem
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#5 Post by Axiem »

Been playing exclusively Swedish for the past 6 months or so. Here is the short list of recommendations:

1) Choose your Core carefully, it will likely determine how hard your list comps. I recommend Helms as a must, and Archers/Spears to fill out the rest. I would stay away from Reavers.
2) 3+ Phoenix Guard are our best combat unit for the comp and points. If you want to play anything with foot, you'll likely include them.
3) 1 Monster is a must. Either Star Dragon, Mounted Anointed, or Frostheart.
4) Avoid Cav Busses. They do well some of the time, but 10 DP or 12 Helms is too small to handle odd-ball anti-armor units that aren't comped very hard.
5) Characters are the best place to spend extra points.
6) 3 Bolt Throwers + Reaver Bow BSB is almost as good as 4 Bolt Throwers and is significantly cheaper in terms of shots and comp.
7) Avoid Banner of the World Dragon
8 ) Avoid Book of Hoeth
9) Scroll of Shielding + Sceptre of Stability can often replace a Dispel Scroll in a list

and finally...

10) Pick something you want to do and stick to it. There's the temptation to dilute your list to fit into comp brackets. Don't. Make hard choices about which tools you want then take the comp hit and move on. Designing a list that can do 2-3 elements well is a lot better than spreading your points across 4-5 mediocre elements.

Hope that helps!

Axiem
mutti
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#6 Post by mutti »

Important tip is to really make the list for the comp, don't make a list and check it's comp afterwards, try writing the list with the comp points, that way you see where you can make concessions.
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John Rainbow
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#7 Post by John Rainbow »

ArcaneSnow wrote:John, that was a very interesting article. Thanks for that.

Playing in moderation is hard coming from uncomped, but definitely something I need to look into.
That's a very different lists from the ones I'm used to seeing, so thanks for that as well.
I'm used to bringing big hard hitting things. My archmages always run book, my infantry is usually 20+ strong with Botwd, my rbt usually come in 4s, and I love my flying birds.
Everything I like to play has huge penalties, so.. not too sure whats fun to play with this system.

That article had an interesting question that I was thinking about as well. "What if my opponent brought a Demon Prince?"
I can barely handle that thing regularly, not to mention in a comped game. haha
You're welcome. I had the same problems when I started writing for other comp too. You have to get your head around the idea of writing to comp points rather than army size points.

I think you need to forget your current conceptions of warhammer in playing under swedish. It significantly alters the power builds as you simply can't take book + BotWD, etc. That is sort of the point of swedish. You can only get a couple of cool toys, not all of them. I don't think comped games are any better or worse than other games in terms of 'fun' or builds. I think your problem with it not being fun is that you can't get the toys you want in the same list. I really like this though. It adds more variety and forces you to play in other ways against different lists. At least for me this is enjoyable and I think it has helped me improve as a player.

As to the demon prince your opponent has to make sacrifices to get him. Either they end up with a low comp score and you get an early advantage or you have to look at holding him up - things like units of 6 reavers with a champ to hold them up 2 turns as you are steadfast or similar while you kill the rest of the list.
mutti wrote:Important tip is to really make the list for the comp, don't make a list and check it's comp afterwards, try writing the list with the comp points, that way you see where you can make concessions.
Great tip.
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#8 Post by ArcaneSnow »

Axiem, thanks. That actually does help a lot. I came to realize that I've relied on potent elf toys in all my games, returning to a game of board positioning over gimmicks should be interesting.
It sounds like PG is one of the only viable options in terms of good special choices then. SM and WL without Botwd feels a little squishy imo. Also, not fielding reavers would take out my warmachine hunting and redirecting ability though right? What do we have that can fill that role?

Completely need to through everything I know about building a scary list out the window and relearn.

Last thing, it feels like swed penalizes the archmage running shadow or death, and light council quite a bit. So there a good general rule when considering my magic phase when building a list?
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mutti
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#9 Post by mutti »

I like a noble on eagle or Griffon for warmachinehunting. Also you can take botwd but you have to be ready to make big sacrifices for it, that's the point of swecomp. I love that it forces you to take choices you rarely use otherwise! Another choice I love under swecomp is lion chariots!

Edit : as for the magicphase, you should avoid lvl4s so a lvl3+lvl2 preferably with different lores give you quite a bit of magic for not too much points, lores like metal, fire and high work great for me!

Edit2: btw, how does the tourney in question use the comp? Might help with giving more specific tips!
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#10 Post by ArcaneSnow »

Those are some models that I've never thought of fielding, griffon and lion chariot that is. This might be a good chance to bring them out.

Umm. Lets do some shameless plugging for my local warhammer group then, the tourney is called Victory or Death hosted by one of the members on this forum actually.
Here's the tourney pack. http://www.chumphammer.com/victory-or-d ... ournament/
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mutti
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#11 Post by mutti »

Ok, I threw something together, looking at a few lists you've posted (I saw Alith Anar in one and jumped on it, I love him)

Alith Anar 250 -8
Archmage lvl3 Sceptre of stability High 200 -21

Noble BSB Reaver bow Pot of Str 140 -17 (incl reaver bow)
Noble Griffon Swiftsense DA Lance, Charmed shield, Golden crown 271 -6
Mage lvl2 Obsidian Lodestone Life 165 -8

Archers 18 mus 190 -7
Archers 17 mus 180 -7
Reavers 6 champ mus spears 116 -4
Reavers 6 champ mus spears 116 -6

White Lions 21 FC Banner of swiftness 318 -19

3xRBT 210 -(7+9+12)28
Frostheart 240 -40

-10 comp for shooting

12.9 total comp

Maybe something to take inspiration from, threw in the frostheart and 3xrbt to show that if you make concessions elsewhere you can put in some harder stuff.
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#12 Post by Lady Phoenix »

Ive downloaded and printed off the comp list and Im slightly confused

Looking at the core units, is the points deduction per unit or in total

For example, Spearmen lose -2 for 10-13, -3 for 14-18 etc etc
but later on it says each model in the unit after 40 -1

So, if I had two units of 20 (40 total) would I score -10 (2x-5) or -13?
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Rabidnid
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#13 Post by Rabidnid »

Lady Phoenix wrote: So, if I had two units of 20 (40 total) would I score -10 (2x-5) or -13?
2x 5

Some of the units, like Reavers and Great Eagles, have variable costs depending on the number of units.
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mutti
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#14 Post by mutti »

That thing about for example -1 per after 40 is to discourage really massive units, making most units over that cap very expensive. Generally just go through unit by unit in the list unless the comp says something about each in the army (reavers for example).
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#15 Post by Axiem »

Axiem, thanks. That actually does help a lot. I came to realize that I've relied on potent elf toys in all my games, returning to a game of board positioning over gimmicks should be interesting.
It sounds like PG is one of the only viable options in terms of good special choices then. SM and WL without Botwd feels a little squishy imo. Also, not fielding reavers would take out my warmachine hunting and redirecting ability though right? What do we have that can fill that role?

Completely need to through everything I know about building a scary list out the window and relearn.

Last thing, it feels like swed penalizes the archmage running shadow or death, and light council quite a bit. So there a good general rule when considering my magic phase when building a list?
Regarding Reavers, Helms are better. 2x 6 or 3 x 5 is better at war machine hunting, board controlling, and providing a combat-threat than Reavers. War machines are also less common in Swedish.

Magic is a different story. Stay away from Shadow and Death; its not worth the comp hit, but a Light council is doable; just stay below -60ish comp for the Council and you're fine.

Generally, there are two schools of thought here: 1) you take minimum magic (level 4 + scroll, maybe a level 1) and use the rest of the points to buy monsters / toys, or 2) you take 2 Archmages. The reason for the first is it allows you to squeeze a Prince / 4th Bolt Thrower / better Monster into the list. The reason for the second is Archmages are a pretty good place to store points without getting hit too much on comp. Let me explain.

When you're planning Swedish, the balance is between points, efficiency, and comp. Archmages are good at the latter two, and if you're mindful of comp with the rest of your army, you will have points left over to spend, but not comp. Additional spell variety also fills in a lot of the holes that might otherwise exist from list selection, especially if you're picking the 2-3 things to do well (which I already recommended). Picking Lores that aren't comped (like Beasts and Heavens) is also a good strategy for the second mage: I would always recommend High for the first.

However, the alternative is more fighty characters or toys. In terms of characters, a foot Prince with Ogre Blade is one of the best units you can take by measure of the three characteristics (points, efficiency, and comp), and makes up for the lack of hitting power from smaller unit sizes. In terms of toys, the 70 point, -12, 4th Bolt Thrower is perhaps the worst value in terms of points-to-comp ratio but is really efficient (aside: stay below the 40 shot cap, the additional bows aren't worth it. This is another reason why 3 Bolt Throwers + Reaver BSB is ideal, because it leaves you below the shot cap with enough points to fill Core with some Archers). Other toys don't really compare in efficiency, or otherwise are very comp-heavy.

This is really the challenge of Swedish IMO; it's not selecting the best combat units, its selecting the best support ones.

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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#16 Post by ArcaneSnow »

That's interesting. A level 4 and a support mage is considered minimal already? While I'm trying this format I figured I can maybe try leaving out heavy magic in my lists as well. Definitely going to have to try a couple builds and play tests from lists before settling down.

In your opinion, if I lower my magic phase to lets say a single archmage or just running 2 level 2s and deck out a couple choppier characters, would that hold up against typical armies? The past couples lists I've taken to tournaments are magic heavy, so having dwellers, purple sun, or str 7 banishment practically negates any real threat. However, if I ran high magic support, mounted prince, annointed on flamespyre, and maybe 1-2 mounted nobles, would it hold up well? Comp for doing something like that is lower, I've never really tried anything like this in uncomped games either simply because I play against a lot of WoC and they're individual characters just seem to hit harder, so I've always been skeptical.

Definitely like the bolt thrower + reaver bow noble as well.

Yea.. managing points is slowly driving me crazy. I'm starting to let the concept sink in, but there is a lot to think about and even more managing. Been sitting at my desk for too many hours staring at my books trying to come up with something strategically enticing since I can't take all my usual toys. haha
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#17 Post by Rabidnid »

A cheap but nasty combo is lore of beasts with a couple choppy characters and the BSB with reaver bow. For a 10 point spell you can make the reaver bow S-8 any turn of the game. Just ignore the #6 spell in Beasts and use that roll for you signature.

Combined with a LM it can get seriously ugly :)
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Axiem
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#18 Post by Axiem »


However, if I ran high magic support, mounted prince, annointed on flamespyre, and maybe 1-2 mounted nobles, would it hold up well? Comp for doing something like that is lower, I've never really tried anything like this in uncomped games either simply because I play against a lot of WoC and they're individual characters just seem to hit harder, so I've always been skeptical.
There is no reason not to run a level four. Everyone will have one and you should too, and it's better than 2x level 2s.

What you just described was my list a few months ago. It is quite strong, if not the "best build" IMO, and will win games consistently. The challenge I found with that list was without BotWD and only 12 Helms, you will find armies that can beat the bus, and this can often turn big wins into much smaller ones. If you start there however, you won't be disappointed.
Yea.. managing points is slowly driving me crazy. I'm starting to let the concept sink in, but there is a lot to think about and even more managing. Been sitting at my desk for too many hours staring at my books trying to come up with something strategically enticing since I can't take all my usual toys. haha
This will happen! I've spent the last 2 months trying to figure out the optimal way of spending 70-85 points. It's both fun, challenging, and makes you want to pull your hair sometimes!

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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#19 Post by ArcaneSnow »

Never actually tried lore of beats. Simply because I'm under the influence that if I run characters, I'd prefer Life or High for the heals, but now that you mention it, savage beast on reaver bow does sound like fun xD
Axiem wrote:
This will happen! I've spent the last 2 months trying to figure out the optimal way of spending 70-85 points. It's both fun, challenging, and makes you want to pull your hair sometimes!
Yea, some times it's pretty interesting the things that I can come up with, but there also has definitely been a few days where I just had to get up and walk away from my army builder and my books.
Check out my High Elves R3K Plog! It's super picture heavy though... You've been warned..
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#20 Post by Trains_Get_Robbed »

I' am amped to get ready for Buckeye Battles (a Swedish based tournament -although not 100%) and I'm really struggling to find a way to make a decent list that comps in a 7.0-13.9 brackett -while incorperating some models I'm paiting and converting: Great Eagle Mounted Hero/Mounted Lord level charcter on a chriot sized monster and a phoniex, along with Helms some Nobles and bows for flavor.

Honestly, I think it's borderline impossible. Anything and everything in the book is penealized to the point of uselessness. Hell a Frosty is -40. . . really? A Frostheart is not worth 4 comp points, they're not even close to being that good -who wouldn't want to have a D.E Cloak Peg instead? Perhaps a Disc ++3 and thy don't come close to that.

When does Swedish usual update?
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#21 Post by Rabidnid »

Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:I' am amped to get ready for Buckeye Battles (a Swedish based tournament -although not 100%) and I'm really struggling to find a way to make a decent list that comps in a 7.0-13.9 brackett -while incorperating some models I'm paiting and converting: Great Eagle Mounted Hero/Mounted Lord level charcter on a chriot sized monster and a phoniex, along with Helms some Nobles and bows for flavor.

Honestly, I think it's borderline impossible. Anything and everything in the book is penealized to the point of uselessness. Hell a Frosty is -40. . . really? A Frostheart is not worth 4 comp points, they're not even close to being that good -who wouldn't want to have a D.E Cloak Peg instead? Perhaps a Disc ++3 and thy don't come close to that.

When does Swedish usual update?

Its not going to change any time soon. The last 5 updates have been very minor. Its simple enough to make a Swedish comp list - mine usually come in around 16 - but you can't have everything that you are used to, so you need to pick and choose.
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Re: How to build a Swed Comp List?

#22 Post by Cold Phoenix »

Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:I' am amped to get ready for Buckeye Battles (a Swedish based tournament -although not 100%) and I'm really struggling to find a way to make a decent list that comps in a 7.0-13.9 brackett -while incorperating some models I'm paiting and converting: Great Eagle Mounted Hero/Mounted Lord level charcter on a chriot sized monster and a phoniex, along with Helms some Nobles and bows for flavor.

Honestly, I think it's borderline impossible. Anything and everything in the book is penealized to the point of uselessness. Hell a Frosty is -40. . . really? A Frostheart is not worth 4 comp points, they're not even close to being that good -who wouldn't want to have a D.E Cloak Peg instead? Perhaps a Disc ++3 and thy don't come close to that.

When does Swedish usual update?
Swedish comp (or at least the High Elf part of it) has not changed much for a while. Some things are overcomped (Frostheart and Bolt Throwers being a good example), but it's still possible to make an interesting list.

Example 2400 Point High Elf List:

General Comp:
-4 (second monster), -3 (second non-mage character on elven steed), -7 (Dispell Scroll), -2 (Ogre Blade)

Lords (937pts)
Archmage (295pts): Elven Steed, High Magic, Level 4 Wizard, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Endurance. -33
Prince (General) (642pts): Halberd, Heavy Armour, Shield, Star Dragon, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster's Shard.-42

Heroes (321pts):
Noble (176pts): Battle Standard, Dragon Armour, Elven Steed with Barding, Lance, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Strength. -15
Noble (145pts): Dragon Armour, Elven Steed with Barding, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Ogre Blade. -5

Core (706pts):
17xArchers (190pts): Musician, Standard Bearer. -7
5xEllyrian Reavers (105pts): Champion, Bows and Spears. -4
5xEllyrian Reavers (105pts): Champion, Bows and Spears. -6
12xSilver Helms (306pts): FC, Shields. -13

Special (70pts):
5xShadow Warriors (70pts). -3

Rare (365pts):
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts). -7
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts). -9
Flamespyre Phoenix (225pts). -14

Swedish Comp: 12.6

It's in the upper quarter of the bracket you talked about and has most of the other things you wanted. Idea being to run forward and smash things, with decent magic and shooting to support. The Flamespyre and Shadow warriors are there to lower your comp, but both should be useful for hunting warmachines. The Flamespyre could also potentially be used to catch cannonballs aimed at the Star Dragon (in which case the 2++ Fire Ward could be very useful).
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