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 Post subject: Musings on Griffons
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:53 am 
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I've been experimenting with gryphons recently, as I have 2 and love the models, and I've found I'm becoming rather fond of them. With Swiftstrike and Swooping Strike, that's 5 WS5 S6 ASF attacks on the charge plus those of the rider, and plus support (Wyssan's great on them). A combined charge of two can deal with most things out there, specially if the riders are correctly kitted. They are also, in my experience, better in a challenge than a dragon, as they get to hit before the enemy, rather than after, and to hit rerolls make those count. Heroes on griffons are also rather cheap (for a character on a monster), so I don't mind using them as bait and fleeing if it gives me an advantage.

My experience is that gryphons tend to be most vulnerable against... well, cannons, massed shoting/poisoned shoting, and any kind of combat character that's not dead on the first attempt. The first point is the trickiest to deal with, though I'm testing flamespyres as reusable cannon blockers (and they help a lot against skirmishers, too), but shooting can be restrained with a list built to support them, and most enemies have 1 or 2 combat capable characters, against which you can either focus fire or play avoidance.

The last list I used included a star dragon prince, 2 griffon heroes, a beasts lvl 4, a flamespyre, a RBT and a mix reavers and helms in core. The list did great against a WoC list, sweeping chariots, killing skullcrushers with relative ease, eating Throgg and his trolls easily, and finally swooping on Festus & Co, while the rest of the army distracted the 2 chimeras.

By the way, it's interesting how mobile a mounted wizard can become by jumping from unit to unit.

I need to test them against other armies, for sure (I'm specially worried about Empire and Dark Elves), but it looks promising, and relatively fun to play despite the the whole Herohammer thing, I'm planning to downgrading the star dragon to a gryphon to be able to fit a second flamespyre. Also, I'm thinking of changing magic lore: while beasts works well, the spell ranges limit it a bit for such a mobile army, and require some very risky tactics to pull it off effectively. Light could help, as would life, but high is always interesting, if only to deal with characters.

So, what do you think? I know that competitive wise this is not a very good idea, as it seems like the epithome of high risk high reward, while competitive armies tend to need stability, but it seems like it could work in general.

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 Post subject: Re: Musings on Griffons
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:35 am 
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Hi Shadeseraph,

I don't have any battle experience with griffons but for me they are the ultimate glass cannon choice in our army list. They are fast and agile and they have beautiful models so it is a shame they are not used more often. It is true they have some big problems to overcome but I think that they can be great anyway.

From your description it seems that it helped them not to be the biggest target in your army as I am sure the presence of a dragon can be much more intimidating. And phoenixes can be good cannon ball catchers too! It looks like you designed fast army to help them out in general and it definitely looks promising!

It would be great if you could post a battle report as an example so that it could provide better insight into how to play with them. My feeling is that you would need to play according to the griffon spirit and be even more aggressive with them than with dragons.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Musings on Griffons
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:37 pm 
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I'm with SM here. I think they can work in a list as you've designed where they have support and aren't the main focus. How are you kitting them?


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 Post subject: Re: Musings on Griffons
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:40 am 
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The army list was as follows:

-Star Dragon Prince, heavy armor, shield, lion cloak, Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Other trickster Shard
-Archmage lvl 4 beasts, elven steed, dispel scroll
-Grffon Noble, Dragon armor, shield, Star lance, Dragonhelm, Luckstone and potion of foolhardiness, Swiftsense, Swooping Strike
-Grffon Noble, Dragon armor, shield, lance, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of strength, Swiftsense, Swooping Strike
-6 Ellyrian Reavers, bow, champion
-6 Ellyrian Reavers, bow, champion
-6 Silver Helms, shields, musician, Champion
-9 Silver Helms, shields, musician, Champion
-Repeater Bolt Thrower
-Flamespyre Phoenix

I've also tried a prince on griffon on a different game with star lance, Golden Crown, dragonhelm and potion of Toughtness on a fluffy Lothern+Hoeth list, and it did great. I might incorporate some of those choices. I might also swap the PoF and the Luckstone for a Golden crown of Attrazzar... But the Star lance and the PoF always too good to pass.

Champions everywhere are critical to either hold lone characters or take challenges by charging alongside the griffons. A griffon noble makes ~8 ASF Str6+ attacks, and a thunderstomp against infantry. No use on wasting them against some enemy champion.

I will be posting a couple battle reports with griffons, including the one this list starred soon enough. Damn, I love the IoB griffon model.

Note: I'm on an set of self impossed restrictions, such as no frosthearts, no phoenix guard, no BotWD and preferibly no BoH. The list could probably improve a lot with some of those elements.

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Last edited by Shadeseraph on Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Musings on Griffons
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:57 pm 
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Posts: 246
What Lore did you run with that list?

Edit: I see you mentioned it above, it was Beasts


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 Post subject: Re: Musings on Griffons
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:00 pm 
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I am very intrigued by what you are doing with the Griffons! Like you, I like the IoB model and have a pair, so want to try running them at some point. My main concern with the Griffons though is how fragile they are to shooting. The Dragon inclusion seems to go a long way for target saturation though. How often have the Griffons died before reaching combat?

If you didn't have your self-imposed restrictions, what would you change? Personally I would change the lore to Life or High and probably take a Frostheart instead of Flamespyre. With that list though the BotWD isn't really worth it and while BoH would be ideal, I'm unsure if I would lose the scroll for it.


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