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 Post subject: How would you play it?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:56 pm 
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I am relatively new to warhammer and my first army was dwarves. However I always like the models and idea of high elves so I decided to play them. However, I can't seem to figure out how to make them effective.
Perhaps i'm warped for playing dwarves since it was much simpler, sit there shoot the target and beat it over the head if anything made it across the board.
I usually play 1000 point games, and many of the combinations seemed lack luster.
(Also magic, I thought I was missing out on this phase but after my mages blow themselves and everyone around them up a few times, I question the use of this phase sometimes.)

What I'm really asking is for how do I get my units to synergize well (I know this is vague) So to help me, here is a scenario. What would you do?

Opponent: Tomb Kings @ 1000 points

Hero: lich priest x2
Core: a combination of archers, warriors and skeletal riders
Special:Necropolis Knights
Rare: Casket of souls

Formation- a large block of warriors and archers in front of the CoS
Skeletal riders on the left flank. heriophant next to CoS n the back. Second Lich priest in archer block. Necropolis knights on the right flank.

What would you bring and how would you play it?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:57 am 
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first of all welcome to Elves!

Against that kind of Tomb kings

I suppose your opponent uses snakes with EBtS or does he deploy them as per normal rules?

Characters
- Loremaster of Hoeth with book of hoeth (providing that you are playing with 50% lord allowance) is great choice in small games. It is decent combat character, with tons of utility spells. Shems burning gaze is good spell to get rid of skeletal riders, all the debuffs works greatly. For example miasma can be used to reduce archers BS to 1 and that will work so they will always hit on 6+.

Core choice:
Reaver -> Main roles: hunt casket, redirect , lock archer in combat
Silverhelmes -> gaining hammering flank charge, lock archers in combat

Special:
White Lions -> They survive against archers, can deal with necroknights
Swordmasters -> They can easily destroy bigger skeleton tarpit, but less surviable against archres
Phoenix guard -> excellent allaround infantry choice we have. Add razor banner and they can deal pretty well against the necroknights also.
Dragon princes -> works well against that kind of tomb kings. they have enough punch to deal with archers by T2 and can try to avoid necronknights

Rare:
Frost phoenix -> your opponent will have hard time against this choice. just plain.
RBT -> they can weaken necroknights and when those knights are submerged they can lay 6 bolts against those skeletal horses.


So my list would be something like this

Characters (with the latest 50% allowance)
Loremaster with Book of hoeth

Core
5 x Ellyrian reaver with bows (or spears could be enough)
7 x Silverhelms and standard (incase you are using scenarios)

Special
15 x White lions, with standard and musician

Rare
Frosthearth Phoenix

---

edit: and you asked how I played it.

Well I would firstly drop probaly first drop phoenix somewhere near the middle section (enough mobility to go either way)
I would try to place whitelions to face his skeleton warrior block (or if he deployes his snakes as per normal rules then whitelions facing directly to them), silverhelms to face his archers, reaver in place that in can slip past to hunt casket of souls. Forsty would join any combat white lions are in for that sweet -1 str.

I would go full steam ahead towards the enemy

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Tomb Kings since Sep 2013:Tot / W / L / D - 31 / 18 / 12 / 1

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:06 am 
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Thats some real cheese, Loriel :lol: Seriously, the TK are kind of done for against such a list. I think the Loremaster and WL are the key elements of the list. The former allows for total domination in the magic phase (your opponent would be better of with a single Level 4, I think). The latter tear Necropolis Knights apart, and are well protected from the S3 shooting spam the TK can pull off.

Happy gaming!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:59 am 
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@RE.Lee topic was "how would you play it?" ;)

I would actual tweak the list abit more to perhaps give shield of merwyrm to loremaster as his str 6 attacks are not as needed in white lion block.

One thing what gets easily overlooked is lore of life lore attribute. Giving 1 wound back to phoenix is in many cases good call.

---

On follow up how would your opponent deal with Tomb Kings just presented by me?

Obviously he probably be better of with one level 4, but if he insisted to use two level 2, then Light as support could be better choice than death. One of the big issues with 2 level 2 is that with the nature of random spell generation (unless using the end of times rule set) you might end with spells that are not particular usefull. In lore of light Speed of Light is extremely powerfull spell against Helfs as not only it makes the core hit on 5+, rest on 4+ and you hit on 3+, it also denies rerolls to hit and against white lions that extra I means that even his regular skeletons / archers can deny attack in close combat and help win the attrition war. Speed of light with snakes in close combat is = victory. Another good spell is pha's protection due low casting. again that helps himwin the attrition war. From lore of nehek there isn't really super powerfull spells other than vengeance against WL. Against my list smiting isn't extremely powerfull alone. perhaps ward save or cursed blade (against silverhelms) might be more worth it. Dessication is always good and skullstrom can be bad and with some luck it can be used to block enemy movement.

If your opponent insist using death, then his best bet will be on doom and darkness (casket and fear) and spirit leech. With ld 8 it would be -1 compared to ideal targets such as loremaster or phoenix.

one of the key unit choices I would fear as High Elven player is Necrosphinx. Helf lack decent way to counter that monster due fly move it is hard to redirect and other than magic there isn't any clear answers beside death by thousand cuts approach. Necrosphinx will anhilate that whilelion block easily and will be really hard to avoid, as the sphinx would stand near the archer / skeleton tarpit block. But If I would have to make choice in 1000 point game Casket is way too good to be left away, as it solves one of the main problems of magic in small games. Too many dices, too few spells (or spells to cast are not worth risking miscast and casted with too low are easily dispelled by opponent) With casket high magic can be turned in to nice 6 dice light of death and force your opponent to try dispel it with all dices and leaves your level 2 with smaller risk of exploding them selves.

Warcat is really great choice in closecombat and would be hard to remove from table, but with lower and cumbersome movement Helf can avoid it better.

Another choice that would be better against helf is chariots. With 3d6 str 4 impact hits whitelions will have bad ride. Smallish silverhelms will have also death by thousand cuts issue and combined with cursed blades / smiting they are bound t do serious blow on our 2+ horses.

Archer should focus of shooting ellyrian reavers of the board.

He should have horse archers to block reavers vanguard and allow your casket to live another turn.

One of the real problems to deal is frost phoenix. there isn't any real good counter to be used other than khalida poison (too expensive on this sized game. Necrosphinx can lock it in combat and it might be epic fight to the end. Frostphoenix is almost impossible to chaff up and it can choose the battle to be in. I would probably try to take it down with casket of souls.

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Tomb Kings since Sep 2013:Tot / W / L / D - 31 / 18 / 12 / 1

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:42 pm 
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is a phoenix the way to go over eagles?
Also what about a block of Phoenix guard as anvil and some silver helm with a lion chariot as hammers?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:00 pm 
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Phoenix and eagle fills totally different role.

Eagles can easily hunt down warmachines and form a one of the easiest possible redirecting in the game, with rather cheap cost, but in current high elf list eagles are not seeing such love as they used to have in 7th book due simple reason that we have almost as good choice from core to fill that role.

I also have tempted an idea using a bigger unit of eagles as really fast flank support ;)

Frostphoenix is superior monster to give support or tank certain units (I would not suggest tanking any highly ranked enemies).

Phoenix guard is imo the best infantry model (in all around perspective) for 15 points accross any army. The reason why I suggest not to take phoenix guard in this particular match up is that they would not be big enough and against snakes white lions are just superior choice. Against Tomb kings as you described you hardly even need a "hammer" with the phoenix guard. Using silverhelms as hammers is ok, but I have personally ended up most of time dissapointed with the performance of them. Perhaps I just use cavalry poorly ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:20 pm 
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Ok I think I get it with the white lions. However we are playing standard games so the loremaster with the book of hoeth can't be used at this point level.
Magic has always been iffy to me. I know high elves are great with it, but one IF and I lose big points when my mage dies. Would it be better to bring a level 2 mage with either life or high magic? (I tend to like low cast spells to buff or debuff. High magic have 2 that only cost 5 points and life has 1 where it can mitigate a miscast.)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:00 am 
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Finatain wrote:
Ok I think I get it with the white lions. However we are playing standard games so the loremaster with the book of hoeth can't be used at this point level.


techincally to official Errata , FAQ 1.9 of the standard game allows the 50%, but I can understand when people are not using this. Even without the book of hoeth which would be really nice, loremaster with shield of merwyrm could still be better choice. tons of low casting value spells and LD9 is good addition.

You could include level 3 archmage with book of hoeth in the list.

Finatain wrote:
Magic has always been iffy to me. I know high elves are great with it, but one IF and I lose big points when my mage dies.


I know what you are talking about. I personally like "tiebreaking" type spells and very seldom use these "one spell to rule them all".

Book of hoeth is really nice equiptment to help with this as you have much more reliable casting on low dice count. I have many times risked 1 dicing spells that needs 3+ roll to succees without any risk of miscast. But the real deal in this particular match would be increased dispelling.

Finatain wrote:
Would it be better to bring a level 2 mage with either life or high magic? (I tend to like low cast spells to buff or debuff. High magic have 2 that only cost 5 points and life has 1 where it can mitigate a miscast.)


On level 2 throne of vines is little.. If you have throne on him then you have only one spell to actual use. In this matchup he would be good asset in white lion bunker giving 5+ regeneration to them and hopefully you would gain flesh to stone!

I personally think there is only two lores to be used on hero mages and those are shadow and beasts (or if you aim for light council then obviously light mages ;) ) Shadow have one of the best spells in the game imo and that is Miasma and beast is just solid with wyssan is solid choice in any list.

For the list I made I wouldn't take high magic. I have many times took High Magic and utilized it with biggish unit of White Lions, but in so small game I think it wouldn't be worth the investment if you would compare placing additional lions for the cost of the mage. Level 2 high mage would be much more worthwhile in phoenix guard unit as any spell you get past means 3+ save for the unit and that surely is niche. If you do eventhough soul quench is nice spell I would advice taking any augments as you could use them in close combat as well ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:09 am 
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I whipped this up at 1000 points to take on tomb kings, I've tried to make a list that is balanced across all phases of the game

Mage - lvl 2, lore of light. Boosts the power of your magic missiles against his undead and provides good buffs and hexes.

20 Archers - muso. Good fire base and bunker for the mage. And will out fight any of the basic tomb kings troopers if required.

2 x 5 Silver helms - muso, shields. 2 units of heavy chaff to smash his smaller units. Resistant to all attacks he has and will reach his flanks and backline by turn 3 latest.

20 white lions - full command, banner of swiftness. Elite guys that will cut through his NecroKnights like butter. resistant to his shooting and stubborn so they are forgiving if you make a mistake.

2 x great Eagles. Run them as seperate units. Good for blocking, redirecting, hunting weakened units and removing that pesky casket of souls,

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:56 pm 
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If using a loremaster, I recommend the shield of merwin and a cheap magic sword (I use +1 str normally) to get rid of ASL. He can also cast beasts signature to add 1 str and T.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:55 am 
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effreem wrote:
If using a loremaster, I recommend the shield of merwin and a cheap magic sword (I use +1 str normally) to get rid of ASL. He can also cast beasts signature to add 1 str and T.


I actually have played this wrong couple times. Having a magic shield doesn't allow you to draw hand weapon, you need to have magical weapon indeed...

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High Elves since Aug 2010: Tot /W / L / D - 100 / 75 / 23 / 2
Tomb Kings since Sep 2013:Tot / W / L / D - 31 / 18 / 12 / 1

Chronicles of Loriel's Glory and Shame


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:46 am 
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Loriel wrote:
effreem wrote:
If using a loremaster, I recommend the shield of merwin and a cheap magic sword (I use +1 str normally) to get rid of ASL. He can also cast beasts signature to add 1 str and T.


I actually have played this wrong couple times. Having a magic shield doesn't allow you to draw hand weapon, you need to have magical weapon indeed...



Ohhh, I had never thought of that. Good point, I always take at least a 5pt magic sword to get rid of ASL! :)


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