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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:45 am 
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pk-ng wrote:
Bashtrigger wrote:
pk-ng wrote:
Double Flee
What is this infamous double flee everyone has been talking about. Well in this simple diagram I will explain how it works.
Image
As it can be seen in the picture above the Saurus is facing 2 units of Ellyrian Reavers. The Saurus charges the first unit of Reavers a.k.a R1 (as indicated by the Red Line). The R1 flee and pass the other unit of Ellyrian Reavers a.k.a R2; assuming R2 passes it's panic test the Saurus has the opportunity to redirect. If he does not redirect he will automatically fail his charge as he cannot physically move his unit into contact to the declared target. Assumingly he does redirect and pass the test to do so the Saurus can elect to charge R2 (as indicated by the blue line). R2 decides to flee and does so pass R1 but since R1 is already flee it doesn't not need to take a panic test nor does it flee again. The Saurus automatically fail as they've declare a new charge unto R2 but cannot physically touch no matter the distance between them. Even thought they had originally declared a charge on R1 they cannot charge them as they have declared a new charge on R2 thereby can only legally charge R2 and no one else.


I always thought that if the charging unit now rolled enough to catch the first fleeing reavers, it will count as having overrun the reavers (even though the other group of reavers is in the way, the first group will have been run down 'along the way', before they get past the second group) and moreover charge straight into the second group, which will not be allowed a charge reaction because they are 'caught unawares'.

Or am I now applying rules to situations they are not meant to be applied to?

PS. If the charging unit failes to catch the fleeing reavers, it will ofc have failed the charge and probably not move far enough to reach the second group of reavers, but assume in my situation they do manage to catch them.


You are confusing it with the rules for pursue / overrun. For charging you can never charge something you never declared to have charged. You always declare you charge then the reaction then move the fleeing unit to the new position. Assuming you didn't redirect your unit will charge the new position of the fleeing unit thereby you need to re-measure the distance. If there's a unit in the way you have automatically failed the charge.


Thank you for clearing that up, will think about some sweet ways to (ab)use this rule in my games, especially against that nasty Ogre deathstar one of my friends likes to field :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:09 pm 
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Bashtrigger wrote:
Ferny wrote:
What happens if (say) a horde charges a unit 5-wide which was deployed on the 12" mark in between a second and third unit also deployed on the 12" mark. Assuming the horde is straight on and therefore doesn't have to close the door it will find itself in contact with three units unless some fudge is applied?

Work around this problem by making the charge at the slightest angle possible to assure maximization without hitting anything but the middle unit, then the unit closes the door until just before it would hit any of the other units, and then the opponent's middle unit (the one being charged) will then close the door the rest of the way.

This is one way to make it work. If the charged unit can't close the door I believe the BRB says you can declare the charge against multiple units. Otherwise if the units just can't be lined up then it would be a failed charge.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:55 pm 
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I don't think you can charge multiple units - that's pretty core to the rules now. But I can't believe that you could force a failed charge so easily just by having your units in a line!

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:06 am 
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theviking wrote:
Bashtrigger wrote:
Ferny wrote:
What happens if (say) a horde charges a unit 5-wide which was deployed on the 12" mark in between a second and third unit also deployed on the 12" mark. Assuming the horde is straight on and therefore doesn't have to close the door it will find itself in contact with three units unless some fudge is applied?

Work around this problem by making the charge at the slightest angle possible to assure maximization without hitting anything but the middle unit, then the unit closes the door until just before it would hit any of the other units, and then the opponent's middle unit (the one being charged) will then close the door the rest of the way.

This is one way to make it work. If the charged unit can't close the door I believe the BRB says you can declare the charge against multiple units. Otherwise if the units just can't be lined up then it would be a failed charge.


I believe you sort of HAVE to do it this way, as indeed you're not allowed to make a double charge unless it is definately not possible to do it any other way (if you can't charge maximally without hitting 2 units)

But if you charge the way I just told you to, there is no (at least for me has never been any) situation where you're not able to charge just the one unit without hitting the other. It would be nice if someone would be able to make a figure to clarify this. I would, but I have no idea how to do it other than crappy with paint :(

edit: Just took another look at my rulebook, page 22, the last little alinea shows you're indeed never allowed to doublecharge (I won't quote the exact wording here because of forum rules, but eveyone should have a rulebook so look it up yourselves :wink: )
Also, just look at the picture on p.22 and treat the rock as if it was another enemy unit, that is how I think a charge would go in this situation. I am not a 100% sure though, but it seems the most reasoned approach.


Last edited by Bashtrigger on Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:26 am 
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I don't actually see the problem. If you can't complete a charge without touching multiple units, then you simply declare a charge on all those units, as laid out in the section "charging more then one unit" on p18 of the BRB.

So if you can only complete your charge on unit A by also coming into B2B contact with unit B, then you have to declare a charge on unit B as well. Unit B then gets its own charge reaction. Note, that this goes for one or more extra units. So in theory, you could charge 5 units if you wanted to and everything is lined up correctly.

And if your unit can't close the door, then the unit that has been charged has to close the door. Only if no amount of finagling (wording from the BRB) allows the units to close the door, then the charge fails. So pretty unlikely unless a lot of stuff is in the way.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:31 am 
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You're right, you are allowed to declare a charge at 2 units, but if you do not you're not allowed to involve a second unit in your charge when you move your charger, which seems logical, as this assures the opponents charge reaction option.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:00 pm 
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Actually, reading the rules again, it seems like once you've declared the first charge and the only way to complete it is to charge 2 units then you are forced to declare the second charge (BRB wording: "then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit"). So it's non-optional once you reach this point.

But yes, if the only way to complete a charge is to contact both units and you don't want to contact both, then you shouldn't charge.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:31 pm 
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Yes! The double flee trick can be a bit "gamey", but as bashtrigger pointed out, the trick is to try to have a charging unit that is positioned at a sufficient angle to be able to wheel around interposing units. The charging unit only has to make contact with the fleeing unit to wipe it out, even if it only clips it at a corner. 9 times out of 10 the Unusual Situations closing the door rule and nudging non-combatants so they are 1" away for clarity would take care of things anyway, though this would only be necessary against non-fleeing units.

Using double flee can sometimes backfire too, especially if the opponent has other units that could charge them, making them flee all over (or even off) the board, possibly causing further Panic tests on units being fled through, and so on. Then there is also the possibility of failing to rally the fleeing units (thus losing the Feigned Flight bonus).


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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:44 pm 
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Kes-Elrin wrote:
Yes! The double flee trick can be a bit "gamey", but as bashtrigger pointed out, the trick is to try to have a charging unit that is positioned at a sufficient angle to be able to wheel around interposing units. The charging unit only has to make contact with the fleeing unit to wipe it out, even if it only clips it at a corner. 9 times out of 10 the Unusual Situations closing the door rule and nudging non-combatants so they are 1" away for clarity would take care of things anyway, though this would only be necessary against non-fleeing units.

Using double flee can sometimes backfire too, especially if the opponent has other units that could charge them, making them flee all over (or even off) the board, possibly causing further Panic tests on units being fled through, and so on. Then there is also the possibility of failing to rally the fleeing units (thus losing the Feigned Flight bonus).


I don't believe I pointed anything like that out, but thank you very much for giving me praise I don't deserve :D

What I pointed out was how I believe you can charge a unit in the middle of 2 other units without needing to declare a double charge

Your point however, sheds a new light on the whole double flee, it's true you only need to clip a fleeing unit to whipe it, and it's equally true clipping will often be possible if the double flee is set up with units roughly the same size (if the first unit is less wide, it might still work)


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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:44 pm 
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Bashtrigger wrote:
Kes-Elrin wrote:
Yes! The double flee trick can be a bit "gamey", but as bashtrigger pointed out, the trick is to try to have a charging unit that is positioned at a sufficient angle to be able to wheel around interposing units. The charging unit only has to make contact with the fleeing unit to wipe it out, even if it only clips it at a corner. 9 times out of 10 the Unusual Situations closing the door rule and nudging non-combatants so they are 1" away for clarity would take care of things anyway, though this would only be necessary against non-fleeing units.

Using double flee can sometimes backfire too, especially if the opponent has other units that could charge them, making them flee all over (or even off) the board, possibly causing further Panic tests on units being fled through, and so on. Then there is also the possibility of failing to rally the fleeing units (thus losing the Feigned Flight bonus).


I don't believe I pointed anything like that out, but thank you very much for giving me praise I don't deserve :D

What I pointed out was how I believe you can charge a unit in the middle of 2 other units without needing to declare a double charge

Your point however, sheds a new light on the whole double flee, it's true you only need to clip a fleeing unit to whipe it, and it's equally true clipping will often be possible if the double flee is set up with units roughly the same size (if the first unit is less wide, it might still work)


This was just me reading through the posts too fast.

I was looking at the double flee and then read your post without reading what it was in reply to. It was probably the reference to a charge at a slight angle that made me think of the charge on a unit that has double fled.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:15 pm 
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rdghuizing wrote:
Actually, reading the rules again, it seems like once you've declared the first charge and the only way to complete it is to charge 2 units then you are forced to declare the second charge (BRB wording: "then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit"). So it's non-optional once you reach this point.

But yes, if the only way to complete a charge is to contact both units and you don't want to contact both, then you shouldn't charge.

Rod


Just re-reading my BRB - yes, absolutely right Rod - thanks for the solution :).

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Please note that after I posted this comment, I was proven to be incorrect. I'm leaving the post in for completeness - but I was mistaken! :D

@pk-ng

You've done an excellent job of putting this resource together regarding the specific order and methods involved with charges. I agree 100% with all the items you've described, with the exception of 1:

pk-ng wrote:

Multiple Charges
Image
As seen the Phoenix Guard and the Swordmasters are going to charge the Saurus. When they charge they need to maximise equally between the units. Remember to roll charges for the Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters concurrently or in sequence to see if both units makes the charge.
This can also been seen in the Phoenix Guard and Skycutter Chariot. Both units have maximised their base-to-base contact equally between each other on the Saurus unit.



I whole-heartily believe that there is no longer a stipulation which requires that units maximize contact equally. The only requirement is that the maximum models possible from both sides are in base to base contact. This means that all of your examples involving the Skycutter are perfectly correct, but while the example showing the Phoenix Guard/Swordmaster dual charge is allowed - it is not the required position. If the High Elf player wanted he could have more Swordmasters or more White Lions in the fight, as long as the total models in base-to-base was maximized (7 Elf and 5 Saurus in this example).

For completeness, from this example he could have:

5 Swordmasters and 2 White Lions
4 Swordmasters and 3 White Lions
3 Swordmasters and 4 White Lions
2 Swordmasters and 5 White Lions

Again, we are talking models only - supporting models/attacks do not come into play when reviewing the engagement requirements.

I hope my comments are helpful! :D

If it helps - splitting engagements evenly WAS a stipulation with 7th Edition charges - perhaps this is the confusion?

Again, awesome resource!


Last edited by GhostWarrior on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:15 pm 
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I thought you had to try to split it equally. Don't have my rulebook (so why am I posting?!)

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:33 am 
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BRB p23: The charge moves of the charging units must be made as far as possible to equalise the number of models fighting from each charging unit.

So it is still there. There is only a further rule (down a bit on the same page), that total number of models in combat should be maximised and this goes before the equal number of models from both units.

So the rule I mentioned in effect only realy comes into effect with units with equal base size. If there is different base sizes, in general the unit with the smaller base-size will have more units in combat, since that is the only way to get the total number of models maximised. Charging in a unit of tiranoc chariots together with an infantry unit for instance will usually mean that only 1 tiranoc is in B2B with the enemy unit and only on a corner.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:14 pm 
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I went back to double check and, lo and behold, it was still there!

Thanks for this! Always opportunities to learn, it seems.

I'll edit my original post to help reduce confusion as much as possible. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:40 pm 
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pk-ng wrote:

Charging 101
Legal Charge
In order to declare a legal charge you need the following criteria
1) Target unit been charge is initially within your Line of Sight
2) The distance between the chargining unit and the unit been charged is equal to or less than the Movment value of charging unit + 12.
3) Can touch the unit been charged within 1 wheel.


Hi pk-ng, really nice write-up!

just for completeness sake...

Can touch the unit been charged within 1 wheel of up to 90°

I know it is also mentioned later on, but surely nice to see up here in the Legal Charge Overview.

Keep up the good work!

Best Regards,
NHB

EDIT: uhm why is the BBCode off? and how do I turn it back on...?

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:35 pm 
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NHB wrote:
EDIT: uhm why is the BBCode off? and how do I turn it back on...?

there's a check box underneath the post window to turn off bcc codes... Fixed it for you.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:36 pm 
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If the charge is perfectly straight on, and there is absolutely no way to avoid charging multiple units, that is the only time that multiple charges can happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:48 am 
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A minor point, but somewhat useful regarding wheels and distances:

1) You can wheel at any point within your movement, not just at the beginning
2) The actual distance moved doesn't matter

This means that you don't need a straight line to charge, you can still charge as long as you can finish your charge in a single wheel. So, assuming there is some impassable, but not LOS blocking terrain between your unit and the target (such as, for example, units), you might still be able to finish your charge.

For example:
/ / <- charging unit (angled in respect to its target and the impassable terrain)


[===] <- impassable terrain


| | <- charged unit

The charging unit would be able to charge through, as it can move straight and wheel once it has surpased the impassable terrain, and the distance to roll would still be the shortest between both units before the charge (so, a straight line that would go over the impassable terrain).

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 Post subject: Re: Charging for Dummies
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:31 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
BRB p23: The charge moves of the charging units must be made as far as possible to equalise the number of models fighting from each charging unit.

So it is still there. There is only a further rule (down a bit on the same page), that total number of models in combat should be maximised and this goes before the equal number of models from both units.

So the rule I mentioned in effect only realy comes into effect with units with equal base size. If there is different base sizes, in general the unit with the smaller base-size will have more units in combat, since that is the only way to get the total number of models maximised. Charging in a unit of tiranoc chariots together with an infantry unit for instance will usually mean that only 1 tiranoc is in B2B with the enemy unit and only on a corner.

Rod


So if a unit of two chariots and a unit of 5 Swordmasters charge the front of a unit 5-wide, I can only put one chariot on combat? :'(


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