How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

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Nightwing
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How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#1 Post by Nightwing »

What would you do to improve swordmasters to make them as appealing as Phoenix guard and white lions?

To be clear, I do think they are playable. But they're definitely the forgotten step child of our three elite infantry choices. I feel you need to spend far more points on other units to synergise with swordmasters to make them work. Less so with the other two choices.

For me they need to be slightly more durable. But how would you achieve that without stepping on the toes of either of the other two choices.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#2 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think SM as fine as they are and they work well in small units.

If I would improve them I would
- give them all their attacks when making a supporting attack
- give them back ASF

Either of those I would be happy with. And if they would get both (and probably go to 15ppm) they would be awsome. Who needs more durability when you put out 60 ASF s5 I5 ws6 attack when you're in horde (or 90! if you're Timewarped). They could even drop the bs shooting parry and they would still be an amazing unit.

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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#3 Post by Domine Nox »

Nightwing wrote:What would you do to improve swordmasters to make them as appealing as Phoenix guard and white lions?
Nothing? Because I already find them infinitely more appealing than White Lions. More attacks. More WS. Depending on what my lord choices are I even take them over PG (If you have annointed and AM, or Everqueen).

I feel any 'improvement' to them would jack their points up ridiculously. If you gave them ASF and supporting attacks I feel they would be far more than 15pts, probably 17 or 18pts. Which would then make them not appealing over the other units who are less expensive.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#4 Post by Nicene »

18 points, MR1, parry save works in close combat as well, give them "blades of hoeth" which give magical attacks at +2 str (no ASL). Champ can carry any magic items (up to 25 points).
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Nightwing
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#5 Post by Nightwing »

I remember an older version of our army book where white lions could choose different kinds of attacks each turn. Maybe something similar here?

Different stances to show their martial supremacy:
Normal: as they are now
Defensive: swordmasters loose 1 attack each but enemy suffers -1 to hit.
Blade storm: swordmaster are ASL but get rerolls to hit.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#6 Post by Loriel »

Nightwing wrote:I remember an older version of our army book where white lions could choose different kinds of attacks each turn. Maybe something similar here?

Different stances to show their martial supremacy:
Normal: as they are now
Defensive: swordmasters loose 1 attack each but enemy suffers -1 to hit.
Blade storm: swordmaster are ASL but get rerolls to hit.
I would like this kind of system. very much and imo it fits the fluff.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#7 Post by dundulin »

3 options I like are
full support
+2s not gw (ie: get re rolls)
close combet use the s vs t chart to hit for ws
This would make the hit hard and more survivable in a differint way

any one of these would do the trick to me (as long as points match)
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#8 Post by Nightwing »

dundulin wrote: close combet use the s vs t chart to hit for ws
This would make the hit hard and more survivable in a differint way
I think this should be standard throughout the game. If this were the case we wouldn't be having any discussions about elven survivability. Their superior WS would make up for their lack of toughness and armour.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#9 Post by Loriel »

Nightwing wrote:
dundulin wrote: close combet use the s vs t chart to hit for ws
This would make the hit hard and more survivable in a differint way
I think this should be standard throughout the game. If this were the case we wouldn't be having any discussions about elven survivability. Their superior WS would make up for their lack of toughness and armour.
I for one like the idea of minimum 5+ and maximum of 3+ to hit in general way, and use modifiers to gain advantage. Having exactly same chart as to wound in hitting would be too devastating effect in the game. The way I picture this in fluff is that since they are fighting ranked fight it is too impossible to complete avoid inferior peasents strikes, simple due hindered possibility of movement etc.. Then again in duels I find this chart rather bad, since then someone like tyrion should really easily avoid and land strikes against something trivial like scar vet etc.

The thing I don't like, is that you need to have more than double WS to get the opponent to hit you harder. Thinking about our precious noble with ws 6 and our core unit of ws 4 fighting against ws 3 enemy... or prince with ws 7 and our core fighting ws 4 enemy. Personally I would feel that having at least +2 weapon skill should be sufficient to have opponent to hit you with 5+ and perhaps more than double would mean hitting on 6+ or something. Even equal or greater than double would do fine in most cases.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#10 Post by Francis »

I would give them a 6+ standard ward save to represent parry in CC and against shooting and a dodge save against war machines as well as magical resistance trinkets (they train at the Tower of course they have defense against magic).

Keep them at 13p with a 6++ and they would be as strong as both WLs and PG in my opinion. I would also have preferred it if they put WLs at 15p and gave lion cloaks a 2+ scaly skin save like the dark elves got. This would also help solidify the Swordmasters' role as the most numerous of the elite regiments.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#11 Post by Dartanelo »

In an ideal world that follows the fluff I would want swordmasters to be as they are now but...
they have special weapons "sword of hoeth" gives +2S and magical attacks.
have magic resistance 1
have a 5+ parry save in CC

These are all ideas others have had but what would you price them? 17 pts?
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#12 Post by wisetiger7 »

Easy fix: swordmasters to core.

Or give them speed of asuryan again.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#13 Post by Ferny »

wisetiger7 wrote:Easy fix: swordmasters to core.
You'd never see spearmen then (OK, even less!). In a way they fill a similar role - high attack output, AS5...but swordmasters do it with better WS, higher S and more points. Still, if they were in core I'd take them over spears any day. Mind you, maybe I'm making a dud argument as I don't take spears...the question would be, would you take swordmasters over core cav/archers?
Or give them speed of asuryan again.
I like the idea of swordies with re-rolls at S5 but no ward, PG with re-rolls at S4 and ward, and lions with no re-rolls, S6, cloak and stubborn. Brings back the distinctiveness of each unit.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#14 Post by Wicksi »

Swordmasters doesnt need any changes imo.

My current list runs 2 units of them (and no lions or PG's) and while yes PG's are awesome if you got a good static cr and Lions are great vs Monsters.

HOWEVER lets say you are fighting dwarf hammerers or any other hard stubborn unit.
The PG's might win combat but they are not ever going to kill them all without really good magic support.
Lions against ws5 targets are just asking for problem (infact they get a 0,42 kills per attack on something ws 5 T 4)
Swordmasters fighting the same unit will butcher the living crap out of the unit with WS6 and 2Attacks (0,44% kills PER ATTACK)

Against "crap" (ws4 or less T3) infantry it also really depends how many ranks you need to remove to remove steadfast.
If you dont need to remove so many ranks then yes PG's are probably best as they wont take any wounds back
Lions will kill a bit more then the PG's but will take more casualties.
Swordmasters have enough attacks to just blender those units to pieces.

So in short Swordmasters are as good as they need to be and in my own personal opinion the question should be how Lions should be Viable compared to PG's and Swordmasters. WS5 no rerolls just doesnt cut it vs decent enemies
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#15 Post by nicco321 »

Each unit fills a particular roll. Sm are to mince lightly armoured and low to mid Ws troops. Pg are to fight nasty high strength units where only the ward save makes a difference. And Wl are to kill monsters which usually have low Ws
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#16 Post by NexS »

BotWD. Works for me :D
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#17 Post by cptcosmic »

6+ parry in melee would fit them well because the current weapon skill table does not really represent their melee prowess. I hope 9th edition fixes this.
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#18 Post by jolinarlorian »

I would like to be able to upgrade the bladelord to a spellblade for an additional cast (35pts?). The Spellblade is a sort of apprentice loremaster, a level 1 mage who knows a single (unboosted?) sig spell from one of the BRB lores.

This would give you access to earthblood or wildform on the cheap (+45pts on top of a normal SM).
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Re: How to make swordmasters as viable as PG and WL?

#19 Post by Nicene »

The problem is that they and white lions are too similar to each other.

My better idea:

17 points, Blades of Hoeth (+2 str magic attacks), 5+ parry save, remove "deflect shots"

So they are gods of close combat, but very expensive and extremely fragile to shooting and magic. To use them well you'll need to screen them with other units, keep them out of range of magic missiles, deploy them in very MSU style, or protect them with magic or something.

Oh, and I still think Bladelord should definitely be able to carry enchanted items up to 25 points.
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