Feedback! Chars in 2nd rank, cc magic

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PurpleFlames
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Feedback! Chars in 2nd rank, cc magic

#1 Post by PurpleFlames »

Hi!

We will test some house rules in the following months and I would be very greatful if you could share your ideas on this ;)

Motivation:
1. I think its ridiculous that wounded characters and pure mages have to stand in the first rank as if they had a deathwish. Sure, for a Prince and a Loremaster its fluffy to fight in the first line. But my white Lions dont even try to protect my Archmage or a (wounded) BSB - who never gets to carry a magical banner anyway, so can survive longer?
2. Also its stupid that an Archmage can cast direct damage spells out of combat - as if nothing is happening around him - but not against the unit(s) he is actually fighting! And all he can do to hurt his foes is swing his sword once or twice without much force, - even if he knows some badass magic missle spells!
3. I love magic being unpredictable. Random. Potentiolly strong. Potentially disappointing. But 6dicing dwellers with 25% or so chance for IF and 33% for every Character in there to just die, even ignoring wards and MAGICAL RESISTANCE?!
4. Unkillable Chars are stupid.
5. My dragon lord tries to kill the opposing general or obliterate a whole unit. I only get the star lance (and possibly potion) bonus in the round I charge. The unit champion challenges me and everyone knows I need 1 or 2 of my 10ish attacks to kill him. And when the unit is steadfast the combat resuslt doesnt even matter...
6. Steadfast is too easy to get for some armies and too hard to break for others.

House rule suggestions:

1.
Characters can be moved anywhere inside of a unit in your own movement phase. Even when you are in combat.
Combat characters with full health should be placed in the first rank, so they get all their attacks.
Squishy mages, BSBs, and perhaps wounded chars can be placed in the 2nd rank and still get one support attack, can grant their bonusses and cast spells.

1a.
Characters in the 2nd rank who wield a magical ranged weapon can use it (with BF -1) instead of their regular supporting attack.

2.
How can this be allowed without mages becoming overpowered?
Direct damage spells can also target the unit(s) the mage is fighting.
Magic Missle spells can only target the unit(s) the mage is fighting.
In these cases:
a) spell complexitiy is raised by X (2? 5?!)
and/or
b) after casting the mage has to do a test on his wizard level, if he failes the spell failed. If he had IF the spell still failes but he has to roll on the miscast table.

3.
Every time a model "just dies" (dwellers, other spells) it suffers as many wounds as he has hit points left. No armor save. But he can use his ward save for each wound individually.
Edit: Agree with killing blow, Nox. Will not be altered.

4.
All reversed ward saves become a 4++ instead.
Edit: I meant stuff like the Pendant of khaeleth. Save gets better depending on strength you get hit by, up to 2++ starting at S5 or 6. In itself its evil. When combined with a good armor save it becomes absurd.

5.
Not sure here... Do we need rules for challenges? Just move somewhere and attack? If I try to kill an Orc Boss but he rather kills off my White Lions than hitting me back Id be fine with that...

6.
If a unit has at least 2 more ranks than any enemy unit in their close combat it is steadfast.
If a unit lost combat and has only one more rank the combat result is halved (rounded up) for this unit.


Again: Id love to hear any comment! Would you love to try any of this? Do you think it could break the game in any way? Or be less fun somehow?
Last edited by PurpleFlames on Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:03 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Domine Nox
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Re: Feedback! Chars in 2nd rank, cc magic

#2 Post by Domine Nox »

PurpleFlames wrote:1.
Characters can be moved anywhere inside of a unit in your own movement phase. Even when you are in combat.
Combat characters with full health should be placed in the first rank, so they get all their attacks.
Squishy mages, BSBs, and perhaps wounded chars can be placed in the 2nd rank and still get one support attack, can grant their bonusses and cast spells.
I agree with this one, simply because of all the make way stuff and step up rules, why doesn't it work in reverse? It astounds me that a unit of Swordmasters with WS6 and 2 attacks at S5 will go "Yes, the best place for that WS4 S3 guy with a single attack is in the front instead of one of us."
PurpleFlames wrote:2.
Direct damage spells can also target the unit(s) the mage is fighting.
Magic Missle spells can only target the unit(s) the mage is fighting.
How can it be modeled that casting DD or MM into his combat is harder?
a) spell complexitiy is raised by X (perhaps 1 or 2?)
b) after casting the mage has to do a test on his wizard level, if he failes the spell failed. If he had IF the spell still failes but he has to roll on the miscast table.
c) after casting the mage has to do a leadership test, if he failes the spell failed. If he had IF the spell still failes but he has to roll on the miscast table.
These are interesting. I think the reason GW did it is because Mages would actually become too powerful if this was permitted, because having a mage spit out say Soul Quench 4D6 S4 hits into a combat every turn would be simply devastating. I understand the frustration about how Mages have to target out of combat only and MM are done as soon as combat starts, but I feel Mages would make an insane comeback if they could get around it. Fighting a Loremaster would become a lose lose situation, at range he blasts your face off, in close combat he blasts your face off and wrecks you with his Noble equivalent stats. It's a nice idea, but I'd be worried to see it in effect. Especially with armies like Chaos? Holy crap I don't want a DP charging a unit with his tooled up self and then unloading into the unit he just charged with a ton of spells, ouch.
PurpleFlames wrote: 3. Every time a model "just dies" (dwellers, other spells, killing blow) it suffers as many wounds as he has hit points left. No armor save. But he can use his ward save for each wound individually.
That would defeat the point of those rules. It can be frustating when they get you, but they are pretty out there chances to actually to succeed. You can dispel dwellers, and pass stat tests to avoid it in the first place. Killing blow, while unfortunate requires a specific roll to happen. I don't feel it's necessary to nerf those myself.
PurpleFlames wrote:4. All reversed ward saves become a 4++ instead.
Unless they had a 4++ to begin with, that's not reversed. I'm not really sure when reversed comes into play, but if somebody had a 2++ and I had the power to reverse it, I would definitely prefer that they were a 5++ instead of a 4++.
PurpleFlames wrote:5. Not sure here... Do we need rules for challenges? Just move somewhere and attack? If I try to kill an Orc Boss but he rather kills off my White Lions than hitting me back Id be fine with that...
Challenges have rules. If he opts to not accept your challenge to fight your guy, then he doesn't get to fight anyone as he hides in the back. The challenge rules are actually pretty solid. If they can just go "nah, I'll chop up your guys instead." That makes declaring a challenge pointless, because why accept if there is no downside to declining?
PurpleFlames wrote:6. If a unit has at least 2 more ranks than any enemy unit in their close combat it is steadfast.
If a unit has only one more rank the combat result is halved (rounded up).
I don't know about this one. I guess I could see it having potential, but I'd have to see how it played out to fully sign on. It does kind of make sense though, so this one might work.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=48766]Nox's Painting/Modelling Log[/url]

[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=60529]Nox's Battle Report Log[/url]
PurpleFlames
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Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:05 pm

Re: Feedback! Chars in 2nd rank, cc magic

#3 Post by PurpleFlames »

Thanks for sharing all the thoughts!
Domine Nox wrote:
PurpleFlames wrote:It astounds me that a unit of Swordmasters with WS6 and 2 attacks at S5 will go "Yes, the best place for that WS4 S3 guy with a single attack is in the front instead of one of us."
You really made me laugh there. Perfect point to show how insane it currently is. On the other hand I fear it could get annoying if everyone starts hiding their characters and you have to kill the whole unit first..
I understand the frustration about how Mages have to target out of combat only and MM are done as soon as combat starts, but I feel Mages would make an insane comeback if they could get around it. Fighting a Loremaster would become a lose lose situation, at range he blasts your face off, in close combat he blasts your face off and wrecks you with his Noble equivalent stats. It's a nice idea, but I'd be worried to see it in effect. Especially with armies like Chaos? Holy crap I don't want a DP charging a unit with his tooled up self and then unloading into the unit he just charged with a ton of spells, ouch.
I also fear it could become too powerful, thats why I was looking for ways too disincentivise it and to tone it down. How about complexity +5? Needs more dice, means less spells, less powerful spells and more danger to blow up. Still dont really like it, but as of now I didnt have a good idea how to balance it...
The challenge rules are actually pretty solid.
How about "Character models can ignore challenges by champios."?
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