How would you "fix" shadow warriors?

[Nightwing]

Hi all,

Not many units never actually live up to how awesome their fluff when it comes to rules and table top performance. One that really takes the biscuit for me has always been shadow warriors. The name alone conjures awesome imagery. Why don't the rules reflect this. Now I'm not a child I realise we can't have the best of everything, and indeed I don't believe we should have the best skirmishers. But shadow warriors "should" be better than most.

For me they are screaming to have the sniper special rule and an additional hand weapon. Maybe some sort of hit and run close combat attack?

What do you think?

[Prince of Spires]

Knowing GW, their fix probably is giving them spears so they can attack in an extra rank... And increase their points by 1-2 since they have extra equipment.

It depends a bit on what direction you want to take them in. S4 shooting (or only at short range), higher BS, extra handweapon, great weapons, swiftstride, all can be fixes that would make them work better. On the other hand, they're not that bad for their points.

Rod

[Aerendar Valandil]

I think they're OK, but if anything would have to change, I would go fo something very steathy (the ability to pop up in a forest area in mid-game, an extra -1 to hit in them cover), or some method to have them hit harder or make them more sustainable in CC, especially in terrain (extending the -1 to hit to CC in any type of brush, bog or forest) making them superior 'stealthy' skirmishers.

[Nightwing]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're a bad unit. They just seem a bit bland. I agree they need some more punch somehow without going overboard or treading on the sisters of avelorns toes. When you read Shadow king they come across as though they're the elven SAS. I suppose they just suffer from that elven trait of having high stats where it doesn't make much impact (ie WS)

[Cable]

I also think they're a generally ok unit. I think giving them an optional 1-2pt upgrade to extra hand weapons makes sense and isn't going overboard.

[daid13]

Following nightwing's discriptor I would suggest that swordmasters are machine guns, white lions are bazookers and sister are rifle ridgiments. Sorry about lack of caps I'm feeling to lazy for that sost of thing.

[Arhain]

Think giving the SW champion the sniper rule would be fluffy, and give them a more unique role as real assassins. Also, give the SWs two hand weapons OR the devastating charge rule for free. They don't need to be more than 14 points for 2 S3 attacks, the WS5 rerolls matter very little when you're hitting with that kind of strength. This would give them some minor boosts that allow for some interesting tabletop options while also keeping in line with fluff.

[Atlantic]

How bout just reduce the points by 2?

5 for 60 is a fairly attractive price.

[henrypmiller]

I think they should have the option for Arrows of Isha. Its like gw FORGOT to write the option/rule in.

Firstly there is a whole special rule for THE ARROWS! If they planned on just giving the rule to the sisters then they could have just included it in the Bows of Avelorn.
Secondly the "magic bow" arms come in the same kit as the shadow warriors so they would probably even sell more kits with people buying 2 sets to convert with the magic bows and without. Not to mention that its just a straight swap.

Moreover, the fluff makes sense. Shadow warriors with magic arrows defending the coastlines from "the forces of destruction".

You get the idea.

[Domine Nox]

But the Arrows of Isha are just that part of the Sisters because they are the Everqueens chosen and she is practically Isha personified. SW should NOT have the arrows by fluff or a rules stand point. The only change I could see validating for SW is let them have 2 hand weapons. Beyond that I believe they are just fine as is and fulfill their role. If you give them more rules than they have they begin to invalidate the need for other units.

[John Rainbow]

On the other hand, they're not that bad for their points.

I'd second this. They might not match the fluff but they aren't that badly costed.

[Chayal]

In the tournament rules pack I`m working on, I have changed so that all units get +1 strength instead of +1 combat result when charging. Units also don`t suffer -1 to hit when moving and shooting. This way the shadow warriors might actually do some damage.

[Domine Nox]

In the tournament rules pack I`m working on, I have changed so that all units get +1 strength instead of +1 combat result when charging. Units also don`t suffer -1 to hit when moving and shooting. This way the shadow warriors might actually do some damage.

That dramatically hurts units that already don't get penalty for moving and shooting then, as you're paying extra for nothing.

[Chayal]

I disagree. There are other rules that make up for that, but I don`t feel like posting the whole rules package now

[Shadeseraph]

I've been toying with the idea of giving them poison both in close combat and with shooting. Yes, I know, good guys don't use poisons, and all that, but it more or less makes sense, and gives them a boost against their specific targets: poisoned arrows means they can hurt warmachines and harrasing flyers (which usually lack a decent armor save) much better, and once they are in combat it gives them a small boost against chaff thanks to rerolls and poison.

[cptcosmic]

they should just get a second handweapon for free.

[de kaasboer]

they should just get a second handweapon for free.

+1

another option would be to give them Armour Piercing (CC and Shooting) and the option for 2nd handweapons (for 1-2 points)

[The Silly Dragon]

I've been toying with the idea of giving them poison both in close combat and with shooting. Yes, I know, good guys don't use poisons, and all that, but it more or less makes sense, and gives them a boost against their specific targets: poisoned arrows means they can hurt warmachines and harrasing flyers (which usually lack a decent armor save) much better, and once they are in combat it gives them a small boost against chaff thanks to rerolls and poison.

I agree here. Yes we are the good guys but the fluff for the Shadow Warriors is constantly telling us how many Asur believe they have lost themselves due to them using the Druchii tactics against them. Or how about where it states that many think of them as not much better then the Druchii themselves. So poison would be right up their alley. Also gives us a little bonus against the many many monsters in the game now, I don't want to have to always include White Lions due to needing their S6 and if I had access to Shadow Warriors poison I could consider a really nice shooty/avoidance list to take down monsters. Variety is the spice of life afterall.

I really hate them as they are at the moment as there is just no reason to take them. 14 points each? please Archers are 10 points each (and core) so I can get many more shots with the same outcome. Marchblocking is rare now and too many monsters and or armour means S3 alone will not help and against hordes then they aren't going to do much with what 10 shots? (two units of 5 say for if you have more then arguably you are spending too many points in them and not on stuff like Phoenix Guard).

[Caradryal]

I'd like to see them with a special rule against Dark elves at least. I mean the dark elves are meant to fear them no?

I think one of devastating charge/armour piercing or AHW's would make them a lot more worthwhile.

[PurpleFlames]

How would you fix Shadow Warriors?

Make them core and max 2 units, 4 in grand army. They are perfectly ok the way they are, just not very elite (for elves).

[RE.Lee]

I'd take either a points reduction (12 pts?) and moving to core, even at the cost of losing the extra WS/BS (who needs it anyway?) or some great shooting skills (poison, AP, killing blow, sniper - whatever!). I guess the former is more likely as the Sisters seem to be the top archers in our army these days.

[Gondarion]

I think the reason GW has managed to not fix shadow warriors over editions 6-8 is because of the models that were set in motion before the rules could be written. Look at the last two designs, they both look like "ambush archers". Contrast that to the more "spartan warrior" look in editions prior to 6th. My solution would be to give them the option for both two hand weapons and shields, and, say AP for both shooting and in combat. Can't do anything like that with the current models.

[Greenman]

Snipe

[Larkspire]

Vanguard would be interesting.No other scouts can do that,except maybe Ogres.
You would have to let them violate the 12 inch rule.

Alternately, allowing SW to charge first turn would be cool.Ambush for real.

[Loriel]

Vanguard would be interesting.No other scouts can do that,except maybe Ogres.
You would have to let them violate the 12 inch rule.

Alternately, allowing SW to charge first turn would be cool.Ambush for real.

Tomb Kings skelatal horse arches had scout + fast cav

I actually am very pleased with Shadow warriors. Last edition they were really over priced, now I think they are just about right. I have used them many times and most of times they were worthwhile as warmachinen hunters / march deny. And they really can contribute with flank charge against lesser troops with ws2 that +1 CR from flank and on average better killing power than say undead skeletons, really helps. For those roles used Shadow warriors don't need AS / extra attack to fulfill their duty on average die result. And never underestimate psychology of flanked scouts / or forced deployment to deny scouts from flanks. even 5 models with 70 points usually gives opponent hard time, even so they really can't do almost nothing.

I haven't tried it yet, but I think shadow warriors could be nice mage bunker (deploy them as scouts to your own zone) and then at your turn make your mage to join them.

Shadow warriors (as reavers) would see daylight very often if they were core (perhaps limitation of 2 or something like that) For me they don't fit core in fluffy sense.

The real tweak I would add would be better anti dark elf stuff. For example extra attack due unnatural hatred against them or anything like this. Or they forces dark elves to reroll their hits effectively nullifies eternal hatred. Or something like that shadow warriors is so hated by dark elves that they have to restrain ld test (similar to frenzy) or charge / shoot them. Or anything that would make them very interesting to play against delf

In general I would like (not only for shadow warriors but all around units in Warhammer) to have more options. Those options makes army design much more interesting, allthough now it is much easier So in fluffy additional hand weapon would be perhaps the best solution to have.

[Viale]

I like including 5 of them in my army. They don't always do anything worthwhile on the battlefield but they tend to force my opponents' hand during deployment which I feel is just as important - spreading his army out in order to keep me from deploying behind his lines.
If that alone can make him spend a turn of moving to get his regiments in line, I think they have done something good.

I've used the reaver bow on the champion a few times, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile. On the one hand they begin to present something that can actually threaten a few units, on the other hand the unit becomes much more expensive without being more durable.

[wisetiger7]

It depends a bit on what direction you want to take them in. S4 shooting (or only at short range), higher BS, extra handweapon, great weapons, swiftstride, all can be fixes that would make them work better. On the other hand, they're not that bad for their points.

The only change I could see validating for SW is let them have 2 hand weapons. Beyond that I believe they are just fine as is and fulfill their role. If you give them more rules than they have they begin to invalidate the need for other units.

I agree with both. A simple change to ahw or just 1 more attack on their profile would do perfectly. Their shooting at BS5 is decent, and combat is just slightly reserved due to lack of decent armor save, so they should hit more often/harder to compensate. Maybe even give them a 6+ dodge save, for them ambushing then blending back into the surrounding wilderness. This idea of guerrilla warfare is what should be emphasized. They aren't assassins so much as they are guerrillas, so I say nay to sniper.

[endontoddy]

Options to give them an extra hand-weapon (+1 point) and poisoned attacks (+2 points) would be welcome.

Perhaps something to make them more slippery and hard to pin down? Like:

'Shadow Cloaks'
Enemies that make a shooting or close-combat attack aimed at a model with this rule suffer an additional -1 on rolls to hit.

Would make them more able to hold up enemy units and generally get in the way but without making them over-powered. Would be pretty awesome as an upgrade for our characters too (though maybe on them it would be abit too much)!

[RE.Lee]

Thats actually a pretty good idea - it would make them kind of like the wardancers. A decently sized unit in a forest could be quite a tarpit (until an inevitable magic missail would blow them out).

[Archmage_Mariona]

...I haven't tried it yet, but I think shadow warriors could be nice mage bunker (deploy them as scouts to your own zone) and then at your turn make your mage to join them...

I have tried this against lizardmen, I deployed my metal wizard with the shadow warriors, it meant it was easy to avoid receiving charges with the terrain and superior mobility, his skinks were unable to use their poison due to so many penalties to BS and my wizard was always where she needed to be for the spells I wanted to cast. It made things so much easier than using an archer bunker, the mage may be best with high magic in the shadow warriors though for added protection.