My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

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Lord Anathir
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My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#1 Post by Lord Anathir »

Right so, we all the know the problem with dwarfs. Long story short, their fluff encourages boring play and lack of movement. How to make them fun while keeping them infantry + machines. Feeling a bit inspirational, a came up with a mock list that highlights the direction I'd like to see games workshop take dwarfs, with the hope that a designer might see it and use the ideas.


Army Special Rules:

-Can Always March
-Flee and Pursue -1 inch
- +4 to dispel, runesmiths 0.5 extra dice and runelords 1 dice (rounding up)
-Dwarfs do not get extra attacks from horde formation (their arms cannot reach :lol: ).

-Shieldwall Formation: A wall of thick shields as tall and wide forms an iron barrier between dwarfs and their foes. Every dwarf protects his kinsman's exposed sides. Behind them their brother's shields push them forward and offer physical and mental support
While engaged in the front in close combat, shields provide an additional +1 armor save in addition to the regular +1 save provided by normal shields. If the cumulative unbroken (the largest frontage of shield dwarfs with no gaps) frontage of dwarf units with shields is wider then the combined frontage of the enemy units (again largest without gaps) they gain a further +1 armor bonus.

If a dwarf unit(s) with shields win combat and the enemy doesnt break, they can choose to attempt to "push" the unit back. Both the dwarf unit and enemy unit roll a d6 and add it to the lowest strength value in the unit (if multiple units are involved, use the best value. The dwarfs add by how much they won combat to their roll. Mounted anything uses mount's strength value)). If the dwarf's value is higher the dwarfs push the enemy unit(s) d6 inches. If pushed to be partially off the board the enemy unit is treated as having fled off. Move both the enemy units and dwarf units together but stopping if any of the units move within 1 inch of external unit. The trample damage is still done regardless: For every column with more then 1 model the unit suffers a st4 hit with no save.

Additionally, ranks of units using shields count as double for steadfast and combat resolution purposes (to a maximum of 6).
However, when engaged in the flank or rear the unit loses benefits of shieldwall formation as the unit's cohesion is broken and all benefits of shieldwall formation are lost.



Armoury:
Gromril Armor: 4+ Save that can be combined with other armor, etc. Models with gromril armor cannot have their armor save reduced to worse then 4+
Handguns: 24 inches +1 to hit (as is)
Oathstone: removed



Magic Runes: (cannot use mundane items)
Strollaz Banner 50 Points. Free move of 6 inches at start of game. Warmachines moved with this banner can fire on first turn. Affects all dwarf units in the army not including scouts. Done before vanguard.
Master Rune of Gromril 35 points. 3+ Save that can be combined with other armor but cannot be reduced to worse then 3+. Cannot be bypassed by attacks that do not allow armor saves.
Rune of Preservation. Immune to Killing Blow and Poison. 15 Points. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune of Resistance. Reroll Armor Saves 25 points. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune of Might. 25 Points. Double strength vs t5+, magical attacks. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune of Stone. +1 Armor Save. Can be taken multiple times. 5 points.
Rune of Determination Banner. 20 Points. One use 1d6 ld test. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune of Battle. 20 Points +1 CR Can be taken multiple times.
Rune of Challenge. 25 points. As is.
Rune of spelleating 50 points 0-1 runesmiths/lords only
Rune of +1 attack 20pt Can be taken multiple times.
Rune of +1 strength 20 pt Can be taken multiple times.
Rune of magical great weapon 20 pt

rules: 3 of each category, weapon runes make GW lose its attributes as is now,


Lords:
Dwarf Lord 140 Points
same statline, comes with gromril. 100 points of gear max
Options: (can take both)
- 0-1 Royal Blood. 50 Points. The dwarf lord is of royal blood and close kin to the High King himself. Any unit he is with is stubborn. Additionally, the lord's profile is changed to add +1 WS and +1 A.
- 0-1 Wings of Valaya. 100 Points. Must be General. By the grace of the god valaya the dwarf feels the spirits of the triumvir of dwarf gods and his ancestors. His soul partially separates from his body and hovers between his corporeal existence and the heavens. Carried by two shield bearers and with a pair of bird wings on his helm the lord takes part in the ritual of spiritual flight known as the Wings of Valaya. At the start of the dwarf turn place a marker within 12 inches of his model. Inspiring Presence is measured from that marker as well as the model. Additionally, one dwarf unit within 12 inches gains +2 initiative and lose any always strike last rules that they have from great weapons or other special rules. Shield bearers provide the lord with +2 armor save and killing blow immunity and the wings of valaya provide the lord with ASF. A unit with a lord with the wings of valaya cannot use shieldwall formation.


------------------

Thats where I stand right now, still have the bulk of the list to do.

A note on the shieldwall mechanic:
Encourages dwarfs to play wide units from edge to edge or as far as they can. Mircomechanics involve the enemy unit deciding between going wide to try to negate the +1 armor shieldwall bonus, in which case they lose static res and risk losing combat and getting push damage. Their alternative is to go narrow, but they lose attacks and/or horde formation and have to deal with more armor. Your standard dwarf warrior becomes 2+ armor and 6+ parry in cc and in a 10x3 formation have the equivalent of 6 ranks for steadfast. Macromechanics invole how the dwarf list evolves because of the rule in general... players are encouraged to play wide units, and medium sized units as they benefit little from adding 4th/5th ranks to units. Most of the core can run in 10x3 while some of the elite units (which I will soon post) can run in 10x2. Rather then castling/shooting as it is now with strollaz the dwarfs become an aggressive push style army that tries to force fights in the middle while their support protect flanks of their long shield wall line and try to prevent flyers from flying behind and hitting a shield wall unit in the rear. While less killy in CC then they are now and loss of horde attacks they don't do so much damage with their infantry in combat, but are considerably better protected and return to their classic method of denying CR and having lots of CR themselves. Later on in the list I will address lack of CC attack power.

A note on the dwarf lord:
For 390 you can have a lord with both wings/royal blood, with master gromril, reroll armor saves, the magical GW and +1 attack. Thats ws8, st6, ASF, 6a, i6, ld10, stubborn, 24 inch bubble of IP and negating GW attacks, also 1+ rerollable armor that can't be made worse then 3+ and can't be bypassed by no armor save weapons. While it seems overpowered I would like to point out a few disadvantages. First, m3. Second, m3. Third, units with him can't benefit from shieldwall. When the rest of the list is up it will be seen that its going to be better to pick either wings or royal blood, depending on whether you want him in a great weapon unit like hammerers (royal blood stubborn redundant with hammerer stubborn) or a shieldwall unit (in which case wings becomes useless). Either way the options are there and you can create an uber character that I feel is fitting for a royal dwarf half transcendent into a demi god.

Note on magic defense:
I took out the spammable scrolls, and made the spelleater 0-1 to keep the dispelling a bit flavourable. +4 to dispel to move it in line with the other books, and lowered the dice generation of the runesmiths/lords. I do intend to keep this list as fair as possible.

Rest of the list to do soon.
Last edited by Lord Anathir on Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Xarhain
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#2 Post by Xarhain »

Shieldwall seems to give a load of powerful advantages but with no drawback. 2+/6++ save core infantry? No saves vs the trample hits? There's no precedent for that, stomps/impact hits don't ignore saves

I thought your intention was to make dwarf play more interesting? I think this mechanic would make even more static armies. Just line up a whole bunch of dwarves in an unbreakable (double rank steadfast) line, get war machines to take out enemy flyers (the only thing with a chance of getting past this mechanic.) Stay in a line, never risk getting flanked. No interesting play options. What's the incentive to "push aggresively" when dwarves can outshoot almost anyone, and will now be pretty much invulnerable as long as they keep formation.

Later you're going to increase attack power? Was making dwarves ridiculously tough (2+ core inf, gromril armour basically a 4+ ward) and able to give S4 no save hits each time they win combat (easy when every unit has the Griffon banner with no drawback and your units dont give away CR) not enough?
Eirik
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#3 Post by Eirik »

I tend to agree with Xarhain, I see a lot of rules here that would reward static, defensive play.
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Lord Anathir
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#4 Post by Lord Anathir »

You both assume I am not going to nerf shooting heavily, which I am.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Lord Anathir
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#5 Post by Lord Anathir »

Rare:

Ironbreakers 17pts
Gromril Armor, Shield
Can take 50 pt flag
minimum size 10+
command 10/10/5


Cannon 180
60 Inch range
4 Crew, stubborn, entrenched (counts as obstacle, soft cover.)
Crew with Heavy Armor
Options:
-Flaming: 25 points
-Reroll a misfire on either the roll or bounce: 50 Points. One use only.


Grudge Thrower 130
4 Crew, stubborn, entrenched (counts as obstacle, soft cover.)
crew with Heavy Armor
Options:
-Reroll an scatter dice. 50 points. If a direct hit comes up on the reroll, use the indicated arrow for direction but half the roll on the artillery.
-+1 Strength. 50 Points. do not stack.


not finished rare yet...

Basically, by increasing the machine prices through special rules I am able to keep the dwarfs as elite machine makers and still reduce their firepower. The upgrades are there, pricey, and not as good. Also they will have to compete with awesome ironbreakers and the other rare units (gyro and organ gun). Bolt thrower and flame cannon will appear in special. The naked cannon has to be more expensive and better then a naked empire one, and worse/cheaper then an ironblaster. A tooled up cannon is better then both by virtue of its obstacle, which gives it the edge in a cannon vs cannon fight. Same with the GT.

My master engineer will be a ranger/miner buffer rather then a warmachine buffer. Anvil will be significantly nerfed and/or changed to not encourage defensive play. Bolt thrower will remain cheap and weak and the flame cannon will excel in an offensive list. Organ will not be auto hit anymore.

Long story short, my dwarfs cannot win by shooting anymore. It will help, but they'll pay through the nose for stuff and have to not take ironbreaker/gyro.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Bestial_Broccoli
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#6 Post by Bestial_Broccoli »

Tbh its hard to gauge wether your list is nice and balanced or filled with OP options without seeing the whole picture. It would be like when the rumours about new AB starts spreading and people begin lamenting and screaming OP on every tidbit without knowing the full context. Your ideas look interesting but I will wait for a whole list before judging it :wink:
Dalamar
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#7 Post by Dalamar »

By making the machines so overpriced you're narrowing the army choice into one selection:

long lines of dwarfs supported by combat characters with crazy save that will castle up in a corner and never move.

You will not win against them, they can't lose.
Lord Anathir
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#8 Post by Lord Anathir »

They won't win castled up either.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Dalamar
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#9 Post by Dalamar »

And that would make for a very fascinating game against dwarfs, don't you think?
Scalenex1
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#10 Post by Scalenex1 »

Most army books seems to have the goal is to allow a wide variety of viable builds.

Your goal seems to be more focused on removing the Dwarfs current best build as opposed to replacing it.
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RE.Lee
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#11 Post by RE.Lee »

I'm looking forward to seeing you're take on the slayers. They are perhaps the most important unit if you're looking to take the battle to the enemy - they can't really "castle up" against anyone.
cheers, Lee

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~Milliardo~
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#12 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

I really like the Shieldwall rules, particularly the pushing them back bit... it gives them a reason to take shields and I can already picture some interesting traps the dwarfs could set up, like moving and facing diagonally to the right and left board edges to push off flankers... that would give the dwarf a reason not to deploy straight in the corner, but rather in the center, with a kind of semi-circular deployment.

You could also expand on it - if the dwarfs push an enemy into impassible terrain the enemy takes D3 impact hits per rank or something. This would go some way to representing how great Dwarfs are at tunnel fighting - they can push them right down the hall and into a wall and crush the life out of them. You might want to limit this to just enemy infantry, and no MI or MC.

Beyond that I think they just need more units and utility to give a reason to come out of the corner... in the first War of the Vengeance book, they mentioned them having giant titan-like steam creations. You could do MI that were similar... and something like a tunneling steamtank. I'd like to personally see the rules for miners made a little bit more reliable as well, so they're popping up like TK ETBTS.
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#13 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think you're being to generous with DD. Getting +2 DD easily (runesmith+ lord) and always disspelling at 4+ is very strong for an 8th edition book. Almost all dice generating is reduced/removed. I would keep it at having 1 or more runesmiths/lord in the army gives you +1 DD. Or having an anvil of doom gives you +1 DD (or D3 like the casket).

Shieldwall sounds too strong. A standard 5+ which can be improved to 4+ with just a shield is pretty big. Shield + heavy armour = 1+ armour save. And that for an infantry model. And the steadfast improvement rule just encourages huge units even more.

Same for Gromril armour. An armour save that can't be reduced is basically a ward save except that it still allows a ward save to be taken. You can easily give the character a defacto 4+ rerollable ward save (dawnstone or other talisman if you want a real ward), which with a shield also becomes a 2+ armour save. Shield, gromril, dragon helm, 1+ which can't be worse then 4+, 2+ vs fire.

While perhaps not a list you will quickly lose against, it doesn't realy sound like a fun list to play against. Especially if you don't have a lot of High S attacks.

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Lord Anathir
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#14 Post by Lord Anathir »

rdghuizing wrote:I think you're being to generous with DD. Getting +2 DD easily (runesmith+ lord) and always disspelling at 4+ is very strong for an 8th edition book. Almost all dice generating is reduced/removed. I would keep it at having 1 or more runesmiths/lord in the army gives you +1 DD. Or having an anvil of doom gives you +1 DD (or D3 like the casket).

Shieldwall sounds too strong. A standard 5+ which can be improved to 4+ with just a shield is pretty big. Shield + heavy armour = 1+ armour save. And that for an infantry model. And the steadfast improvement rule just encourages huge units even more.

Same for Gromril armour. An armour save that can't be reduced is basically a ward save except that it still allows a ward save to be taken. You can easily give the character a defacto 4+ rerollable ward save (dawnstone or other talisman if you want a real ward), which with a shield also becomes a 2+ armour save. Shield, gromril, dragon helm, 1+ which can't be worse then 4+, 2+ vs fire.

While perhaps not a list you will quickly lose against, it doesn't realy sound like a fun list to play against. Especially if you don't have a lot of High S attacks.

Rod
-+4 to dispel is like every other book. dwarfs should have better magic defense then any other book, bar none. I've dropped the ability to take 6+ dispel scrolls (which I have done in real life), and dice stealing and that alone should be enough of a compromise.

-shieldwall is 5+ from heavy armor, 4+ shield, and +2 more from the shieldwall = 2+ basic, not 1+. Dwarf are only infantry, and m3. Infantry simply has to be worth taking or people just max out on shooting like they do now.

-is there any dispute that gromril shouldn't be the best armor in the game? Note I have taken out all ward saves, and cannot take any of the mundane items.

-isn't anything better then fighting 12 warmachines?
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Lord Anathir
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#15 Post by Lord Anathir »

Continuing on: A few specials:

Miners 13 points
Special
Great Weapons, Heavy Armor
Underground advance.
Unit size 10-20
Command 10/10/5

Place a marker anywhere on the board at the start of the game after deployment but before vang. Starting on dwarf turn 2, roll a d6, on a 3+ they come up. Roll a scatter and artillery from the marker. If it lands on a unit or impassable terrain the unit is placed at the closest legal position, with one model of the front rank needing to be on the marker. Minimum rank width 5 models, maxmium rank width 10 (no more of the conga nonsense).

Misfire: Roll a d6
1: Cave in - Unit Destroyed and VP awarded.
2-3: Unit Lost- No VP awarded
4-6: Opponent nominates any legal place 2d6 inches from the marker.

cannot charge the turn they come on. can move normally.


Rangers 13 points
Special
Unit Size 10-20
Heavy Armor, Great Weapons
Stat line... regular dwarf, str3. Cannot be upgraded to longbeards. Are a standalone unit now.
Options: Throwing Axes +1 point.
Unit size 10-20
Overground Advance:
Start off the board like miners. On turn 2 roll a d6, 3+ they come in from a table edge. Roll another D6
1 - Table edge of opponent's choice.
2-3 - One of the side edges (dwarf player chooses)
4-6 - The back edge
(again, min/max unit widths 5 and 10 to prevent conga and other silliness).

cannot charge the turn they come on. can move normally (can march)

A Hero:
Master Engineer - 70pts
Statline: ws5, 2a, st4, t4, ld9
Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
Can deploy with a ranger or miner unit. With miners, he rerolls a misfire when they arrive. With rangers, he can reroll the d6 that designates which edge they come up on.





-------
Also rod, Is there any army in the game that does not have lots of high strength attacks?
And remember my dwarfs can't fight in horde... so no extra attacks. If you take big units you won't have enough units to protect flanks and even a single eagle/sabertooth/etc will lose the shieldwall bonus. Then its lots of dwarfs that die fast and don't kill anything and the dwarf player is in trouble.

I'm not sure yet how the list will play, but at least let me get it all done first.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
pk-ng
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Re: My take on how to fix dwarfs. My AB rewrite

#16 Post by pk-ng »

Very interesting take. Love to see the whole picture before commenting.
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