Shadow Warriors

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Nagashias
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#31 Post by Nagashias »

Please note, they do not fullfil the same role as Waywatchers. Rather, Shadow Warriors will fullfil the role of removing weak units.

Shadow Warriors - 17 points a piece.
Unit size: 4-8
Statline as before.

Equipment: Shortbow,
Option to buy Additional Hand Weapons (+1 pts per model)
Special Rules: As normal, plus Ambushing Charge, Enemy Within

Ambushing Charge:
When charging, all Shadow Warriors may shoot once with a -1. If charging more than their move distance, instead of one shot, all shadow warriors may shoot three times with -2 to hit. Wounds caused by this way count as combat resolution. If the charged unit is already in combat, divide the shots evenly between friendly (50%) and enemy (50%) units - Shadow Warriors hatred makes them not caring about friends as long as the foes are hurt!

Old Hatred: Dark Elf fear the Shadow Warriors more than anything else from the High Elf lands. If versus a Dark Elf army. Roll a d6 every turn. On a roll of 1-5, all dark elf units within number of models x 2 suffer -1 LD (1 shadow warrior = 2 inches, 2 shadow warriors = 4 inches etc.). On a roll of 6, all Dark Elves must pass a psychology test before attacking the Shadow Warriors, with a modifier of -1.
Nagashias
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#32 Post by Nagashias »

In addition to the above.

Fluff wise, they are ambushers, striking very hard against soft targets. Giving them longbows make no sense, especially as we already have plenty of shooting in the High Elf Army.



Another possible way of making the:


Shadow Warriors (13 points per model)
Same statline as before, but with LD 9 (can't remember what LD they normally have)
Unit size: 5-10

Equipment: Hand Weapon (no bows!)
Additional Hand Weapon: +2 point per model.

Special Rules: Same as normal High Elf units + scout and frenzy, as well as 1#
1#: If fighting units with less models than themself, they have a +2 bonus to strenght as well as armour piercing.


Counters small units (fluffwise that's what they do). However, they are very vulnerable to shooting and bigger units. Also, they can be baited very easily.
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Tullarion
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#33 Post by Tullarion »

No.

Now you want to go from shooting on the charge to shooting THREE TIMES on the charge? There is nothing in the game that can do that.

And you want shadow warriors' proximity to dark elves to lower their LD? They aren't spooky elves, they just hate dark elves more than other high elves do... the dark elves aren't particularly afraid of them. Sure they probably wouldn't fare too well if captured by shadow warriors, but they probably wouldn't live too long with any other high elf either.

Consider Alith Anar, who is a good value for points. He has the moonbow, a heavenly weapon given to him by the goddess Lilleath. Fluff dictates that it's very powerful. Game terms, it causes a panic test (at full LD) in dark elves if it causes a casualty. That's reasonable.

All these crazy rule ideas for shadow warriors smack of 40k marine players reading a bunch of black library novels and screaming that marines aren't as strong as the fluff. Shadow warriors are cool, yes... but not super ultra LD bombing psychic ninjas.

And I totally disagree that way watchers and shadow warriors have different roles. They have the same roles, its just that way watchers are way better at it (as they should be), and way watchers' abilities give them additional roles that shadow warriors cannot (and should not) handle.
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Tullarion
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#34 Post by Tullarion »

So... wait a minute... frenzied high elves? Frenzied scouts? Monster level strength on infantry models without special weapons or potions or magic? Armor piercing on top of that? For 13 points?
Nagashias
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#35 Post by Nagashias »

Tullarion wrote:So... wait a minute... frenzied high elves? Frenzied scouts? Monster level strength on infantry models without special weapons or potions or magic? Armor piercing on top of that? For 13 points?

Well, you could see it another way. Frenzied Nagarythe warriors who remained loyal to Ulthuan despite seeing their homeland completely destroyed, families betraying them etc.

It's not Monster strenght infantry. Its just making them useful. Nearly everything is either 1+ armour save or T4-T5 with a billion attacks.

A Price increase to 14 points might be useful. However, look at the units it will counter. Hydra, a T5 5 wound monster with 4+ armour save, can breahte kill all shadow warriors in melee etc. -> Are shadow warriors still too strong ?
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Domine Nox
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#36 Post by Domine Nox »

Nagashias wrote:It's not Monster strenght infantry. Its just making them useful. Nearly everything is either 1+ armour save or T4-T5 with a billion attacks.
You're right everything is except most of the High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Empire, Bretonnian, Daemon, and Skaven book. Oh wait! That's not everything.

You even said yourself
Nagashias wrote: they are ambushers, striking very hard against soft targets.
So why would you even concern yourself with things that are 1+ or high T? They are designed to hit warmachines. Hit weak units in the flank. Etc. They are not supposed to be the greatest unit in the High Elf arsenal. Which is what this thread seems to be about making them.
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Nagashias
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#37 Post by Nagashias »

Domine Nox wrote:
Nagashias wrote:It's not Monster strenght infantry. Its just making them useful. Nearly everything is either 1+ armour save or T4-T5 with a billion attacks.
You're right everything is except most of the High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Empire, Bretonnian, Daemon, and Skaven book. Oh wait! That's not everything.

You even said yourself
Nagashias wrote: they are ambushers, striking very hard against soft targets.
So why would you even concern yourself with things that are 1+ or high T? They are designed to hit warmachines. Hit weak units in the flank. Etc. They are not supposed to be the greatest unit in the High Elf arsenal. Which is what this thread seems to be about making them.
I think we have a different view of soft targets. I meant, as in easy targets that are unsupported. Small Groups of knights, war machines etc. and not as in low T troops.

However, my suggestions might stem from a wish to have a strong will be cost effecient most of the times unit, like some other armies :-)
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Tullarion
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#38 Post by Tullarion »

How about this:

Shadow Warriors, Core 10 points per model
MWBSTWIAL
666432639

Equipment: Shadow warrior longbow (range 36", S5 armour piercing), paired Shadow warrior great swords (+2 S, paired weapons)

Special Rules: Frenzy, Hatred, Armour Piercing, Devastating Charge, Unbreakable

Ultra mega bowmen: In the shooting phase, shadow warriors automatically hit every enemy unit in range and line of sight in a 360 degree arc. These shots have sniper and killing blow.

Sooper Dooper pooper scary: All enemy units within 24" are at -3 LD. In addition dark elves units in range lose d6 wounds a turn from fright.

Shadowy ninja dudes: once each turn in the magic phase, each shadow warrior can cast a spell of their choice from the lore of shadow as a bound spell (power level 4). They count as characters for the purpose of the lore attribute and steed of shadows.

Supreme war machine hunters: When charging a war machine, it is automatically destroyed. Furthermore, the shadow warrior takes the weapon from the war machine, applying its rules to shots for ultra mega bowmen, losing any slow to fire or move and fire rules the weapon normally has, and instead gaining quick to fire.

Is that good? They'll be effective at their job, right? That's the only concern... not balance...
Nagashias
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#39 Post by Nagashias »

Tullarion wrote:How about this:

Shadow Warriors, Core 10 points per model
MWBSTWIAL
666432639

Equipment: Shadow warrior longbow (range 36", S5 armour piercing), paired Shadow warrior great swords (+2 S, paired weapons)

Special Rules: Frenzy, Hatred, Armour Piercing, Devastating Charge, Unbreakable

Ultra mega bowmen: In the shooting phase, shadow warriors automatically hit every enemy unit in range and line of sight in a 360 degree arc. These shots have sniper and killing blow.

Sooper Dooper pooper scary: All enemy units within 24" are at -3 LD. In addition dark elves units in range lose d6 wounds a turn from fright.

Shadowy ninja dudes: once each turn in the magic phase, each shadow warrior can cast a spell of their choice from the lore of shadow as a bound spell (power level 4). They count as characters for the purpose of the lore attribute and steed of shadows.

Supreme war machine hunters: When charging a war machine, it is automatically destroyed. Furthermore, the shadow warrior takes the weapon from the war machine, applying its rules to shots for ultra mega bowmen, losing any slow to fire or move and fire rules the weapon normally has, and instead gaining quick to fire.

Is that good? They'll be effective at their job, right? That's the only concern... not balance...
That is just flame/trolling now, I reported your post.
Zhorn
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#40 Post by Zhorn »

There is nothing truly wrong with shadow warriors. Yes, they're a bit expensive for what they do but if you think you're going to loose a game because you overpay 20-30 points for a unit in a typical 2000 to 3000 points game then i think you're deluded about how the game works. Shadow warriors as they are for a few points less would be favourable, but really: a unit of 5 is over-costed by maybe 10 or 20 points. Nothing to cry foul about.
Tyr of Yvresse
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#41 Post by Tyr of Yvresse »

Nagashias wrote:
That is just flame/trolling now, I reported your post.
Well I found it funny.

Anyways Tullarion is just pointing out how ridiculous your proposal for shadow warriors are im sorry but there just doesn't seem to be any thought into balance, as it has been said shadow warriors aren't bad they just need the right equipment for the job Extra hand weapons, Shields (Not really that cumbersome) and great weapons are all perfect examples.
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Tullarion
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#42 Post by Tullarion »

Tyr, I appreciate the support. I was going for funny, not being a jerk. If Nagashias felt unduly attacked, that wasn't my intent. I was trying to illustrate that I feel his suggestions for shadow warriors are unnecessarily over the top. I really think that the simple addition of one point options for additional hand weapons or shields is plenty. Or keep them at the same points and just get a free option for one or the other. I really think that additional special rules would be over the top. The only scouting units I can think of with unique special rules are chameleon skinks and way watchers... both having to do with deployment (and way watchers' was taken away). Way watchers also get killing blow on shooting... but the are the penultimate archers in the penultimate archer army. I just don't see the rationale in giving shadow warriors much more than they have. I think they lost a lot in 8th, but only because ALL skirmishers lost a lot in this ruleset. I don't think additional special rules are appropriate. Again, I didn't mean to offend Nagashias beyond a bit of friendly ribbing, but I hope my point gets across nonetheless.

Also, I fully plan on testing out my goofy shadow warrior. I made rules... so I want to see how ridiculous it is.
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#43 Post by Tyr of Yvresse »

No problem dude.

Shadow warriors are in a strange place at the moment and it very hard to find a role for them due to other units in the army competing for the same role with reavers and eagles as war machine hunters, counter scouts ect. I think having a hand weapon or shield would be an improvement and I don't feel they should have to pay from something as minor as a shield or another sword, even if they did have them would they make that much of a difference? Their role is still being filled by other units and it still doesn't make them a ambushing unit it doesnt bring anything special to the table.
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Tullarion
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#44 Post by Tullarion »

I think you're hitting the nail on the head. Our army can put so much pain in one spot so quickly, that we don't need a unit as fragile as shadow warriors to do that job. With eagles and reavers, if we want to be behind the opponents front lines, we can just BE there. Honestly, any of our cavalry can do that. Bolt throwers have range to most opposing war machines anyway, so we don't really need to reach out and touch them. Since skirmishers can't disrupt, can't get a rank bonus and can't fire or charge 360 anymore... they can't really compete with other units in our army for those roles. The problem is if you fix them in terms of internal balance by adding a host of new rules for them, they become way unbalanced in comparison to skirmishers and scouts in other armies. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: any change to shadow warriors should make them different but comparable to shades, but still inferior to way watchers. I think one point or free options for AHW or shields will at least give them fluffy options that will make them more effective, but they'll never be as effective as they were in editions past as long as the BRB rules for scouts and skirmishers remain as they are.
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Prince of Spires
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#45 Post by Prince of Spires »

The problem with SW in my mind is that we have enough fast redirector type units and that 5-7 s3 close combat or shooting attacks (with 5-7 being the standard unit size for scouts in my experience) don't realy achieve anything. If they were our only redirector then they would definatly see some use. And even, with our rare section as it is now, I suspect that if reavers were not core then they would get some love.

So if they are not there to redirect then they need something to increase their damage output to make them worthwhile. This is the reason that shades get so much love (relatively speaking). Going from s3 to s5 is massive. Doubling your CC attacks already makes warmachines a fight you can actually win. Twice the number of shots at higher S and AP, that might actually kill something.

Changing any of those would give SW a clearer role and make them worth taking. Give them multishot and AP shooting at short range and they become a great harrasing unit that can deal with chaff. Give them aditional hand weapons and they become better at dealing with weak core units and warmachines. Give them a GW and you suddenly have a very decent combat unit that can deal with smaller enemy units. I would be happy with any of those. Even just s4 on the charge would be great.

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Re: Shadow Warriors

#46 Post by sparkytrypod »

I use shadow warriors, mainly just for the scout ability, just keep my opponent on his toes.

however their damage is pretty minimal, even if both their ballistic and cc attacks were just given poison I would be happy!
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dundulin
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#47 Post by dundulin »

How about giving them MP.....murderers prowess they are close to dark elves in fluff it would be a good subtle improvment without being to op on a 5-7 man unit
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#48 Post by henrypmiller »

Add murderous prowess, including ranged attacks [after all they share the traits of the dark elves] and extra hand weapon. Done.

EDIT-just was suggested above. Damnit!
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Tullarion
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Re: Shadow Warriors

#49 Post by Tullarion »

I definitely don't think Murderous Prowess is appropriate for them. Forget the fact that it's an army specific rule for another army, and that leads to a lot of muddling (would we like it if Empire Battle Wizards got Blessing of Lileath just because their wizards are trained by High Elves?), Shadow Warriors are not Dark Elves. They are not born in Dark Elf society, they don't rise through the ranks by assassinating their superiors, they don't paranoidly kill their underlings who show promise in an effort not to be killed themselves... They are related to Dark Elves by blood, but not by action. They are still good guys.

In the last book, they had hatred (everyone) which showed their generally pissy nature. Against Dark Elves specifically, they had hatred in every round, which I thought was fluffy and functional. I have no idea why they changed it.
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