High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

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Zlatan
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High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#1 Post by Zlatan »

Hey there.

Does anyone else feel a little guilty about relying so heavily on shadow and life magic, and neglecting our own lore (which is supposed to be the most powerful lore in the warhammer world)? According to the fluff we're supposed to spend centuries mastering the intricacies of the winds of magic, but then they never use this knowledge. In the game, apart from +1 to dispel (which would cost a negligible amount of points if it were a magic item ability), we're no better than the puny human wizards (who are also a whole lot cheaper). We may as well just swing by the college of Shadow in Altdorf for a semester and then get on with other things for all the good it does us in-game.

So, until the 8th ed book arrives I've been thinking of making provisional changes to High magic to bring it in line with the power of the other laws. My thinking is:

1) It should be a very versatile lore: If our mages spend so long mastering it, they should have a few tricks up their sleeve that would be handy in a variety of situations.
2) It should not be too overpowered, but should at least be powerful enough to justify the points spent on our mages/archmages.
3) It should be the most attractive law for most "regular" High Elf army builds, which synergies well with our other rules.

Here are my provisional ideas, I thought it would be a good idea to base each High Magic spell on one of the gods from the High ELf Pantheon. I'd love any feedback or other ideas from you too:

High Elf Mage Abilities:

All High Elf Mages know the spell Drain Magic (as per current rules), regardless of the lore they choose.
All High Elf Mages add +1 to dispel attempts (as per current rules).

High Magic lore:

"Master of the Winds" (Lore Attribute): High Mages are experts at manipulating the winds of magic and bending them to their will. They possess the foresight and training to sense unsafe surges of power and diffuse them harmlessly. If a High Magic user suffers a miscast for any reason, including those caused by magic items, roll a D6. If they score equal to or less than their magic level, they may ignore the miscast result and instead instantly cast Drain Magic for free. This casting of Drain Magic cannot be dispelled, and the magic phase ends immediately afterwards.

Choosing Spells: Choose spells as for other 8th edition laws. 1= Shield of Lileath. 2= Curse of Loec. 3= Hex of Morai Heg. 4= Wrath of Khaine. 5= Flames of Asuryan. 6= Vaul's Unmaking. May swap any spell for Blessings of Isha.

"Blessings of Isha" (Signature Spell): Augment Spell with a range of 24". Grants the target unit +2 to any one of the following characteristics: WS, BS, S, T, I, Ld. Last until the start of the caster's next magic phase. Casting value 8+.

"Shield of Lileath": As per Shield of Saphery, but grants a 4+ ward save for a casting value of 8+.

"Curse of Loec": Hex spell with 24" range. Remains in play. Target unit suffers -2 to any one of the following characteristics, nominated by the caster at the time of casting (must nominate before the opponent decides whether to attempt a dispel): M, WS, BS, S, T, I. Casting value 13+.

"Hex of Morai Heg": Hex spell, 24" range. Remains in play. Any rolls to wound against any model in the target unit may be re-rolled. In addition, any characters in the unit must re-roll any successful 'Look Out Sir!' rolls.

"Wrath of Khaine": As per current rules for Fury of Khaine, but hits are also armour piercing.

"Flames of Asuryan": As per current rules for Flames of the Pheonix, but may be boosted to cause s4 hits on the first turn, with +1S each turn as normal. If boosted the casting value is 16+.

"Vaul's Unmaking": As per current rules. May be boosted so that the opponent must reveal all magic items within 30" of the caster, who may then choose which one to nullify. If so the casting value is increased to 18+.

What do you think? Too overpowered, do the casting values need adjusting?
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Dartanelo
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#2 Post by Dartanelo »

I think you accomplished your 1st and 3rd goals. The lore seems very versatile and I would certainly choose High Magic much more often than I do currently.

Im not sure about the overpowerd goal though. I agree that High elves need something more to set them apart from human wizards and I did like this
"Master of the Winds" (Lore Attribute): High Mages are experts at manipulating the winds of magic and bending them to their will. They possess the foresight and training to sense unsafe surges of power and diffuse them harmlessly. If a High Magic user suffers a miscast for any reason, including those caused by magic items, roll a D6. If they score equal to or less than their magic level, they may ignore the miscast result and instead instantly cast Drain Magic for free. This casting of Drain Magic cannot be dispelled, and the magic phase ends immediately afterwards.
And the fact that the magic phase ends afterwards goes a long way to not making it OP. The spells themselves seem powerful but there are equivalent spells in other lores and High magic is supposed to be a combination of the other 8. I also like that you included some higher casting value options, I always felt this was something high magic lacked.
I guess to sum it up I like the changes, the basing of each spell off a god I really like, but I'm not sure If it is overpowered or not. I like it fluff wise but in terms of game play is it too much? I'm interested in what others think, but Great work!
Zlatan
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#3 Post by Zlatan »

Thanks. I was wondering about maybe making it an option only for archmages if it does turn out to be too over the top. I guess the best thing to do would be to find someone who'll let me play test it.
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Mentheus of Caledor
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#4 Post by Mentheus of Caledor »

Those are really some nice rules. Normally I'm not a huge fan of fan stuff (sometimes it just doesn't fit my view of things, which is fine and all) but from my point of view you really nailed something that is extremely versatile. I really like it. TBH if I had access to that I would probably never use anything else :) I'm not sure whether that's an indicator of its power level.

As above, I REALLY like the lore attribute. I think it is EXTREMELY fitting for high elves, but I'm unsure as to it being overpowered. Since some of the miscast results have a negative effect (outside of ending the phase) and with an AM you'll ignore most of those, I think perhaps it should still inflict a hit on the wizard, even if they pass the check. Not huge, maybe like a str3 hit or something. Maybe it's perfectly balanced, idk. But give it some plays, see how she goes. :)
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Foxbat
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#5 Post by Foxbat »

My view of Drain Magic is that this spell is not all that functional in 8th edition.

I would prefer to see the spell, once it has been successfully cast, result in any 6 rolled with Power Dice being transformed into 5 (making it impossible to get IF, but not as crippling as becalming) and for any 5 rolled with a Dispel Dice will be transformed into a 6 (can result in an IF dispel).

Unlike the current version of this spell, it would not be stackable.
Natwest
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#6 Post by Natwest »

I really like the idea, but i do agree with everone else on the overpowered ness, however the fluff is brill!!! :D
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Natwest
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#7 Post by Shadow star »

I like it. I aree that Hih Magic feels abit wishy washy especially considerin the fluff behind elves. Seems ballanced and I like the inclusion of boosted versions, they're allways nice to have the option.
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Tarval
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#8 Post by Tarval »

I live for high magic as you can control and run the magic show from the get go. Our lore is cheap, we have a wide range, as well we have drain magic. What more could you ask for in a lore. Ya, we dont have that I just rolled six dice max 13th and you cant do anything about it lore. Then again you could dweller somebody or pit, or sun them to death... Then again you could reach into your other lords and break them down with death. Then again do you really want to be the guy on the other side who eats a 13th, or who is death lored to death, or dwellered or pitted off the board.

I dont want to get into all the earks I have about magic in this game. I will say that I truley love our lore and what it has to offer. How many times can you watch somebody attempt to six dice a high casting spell because you dbl down drain magic.

Oh look,, you penant just got trashed,, your daggers gone, your down to a few guys and a lion chariot just road right over your DE caster...

Drain magic is a key element in my army. I have shut caster down by rolling both of them first. I have a lvl 2 who cast it first with two dice because its cheap. Then I return with my lvl four who cast it again because its still cheap in that your only adding 3 to the spell. Then again your a lvl four so its not that hard to break even and cast the spell. So now that you have dbl drained,, you might not have the ability to get a spell off but you have put a huge dent in the other players ability to cast....

Magic is a bit like poker in the fact that your trying to pull somebodies bluff. What you going to dispell,,, drain magic,, junk spell?, drain magic again,, junk spell?.. Then hit them 5 dice vauls and watch an item vanish or scrolled...

Curse of arrow attraction,, who does not want rerolls with 38 archers.. I do.. hell you just lost your Aboom and what ever else I find that I need to kill. Vauls is a key spell and people will opp to dispell or scroll it on the first round. You have not removed that item ie the scroll and now its down to dice for the rest of the game. As a High Elf player we have a high pool because of our items so take advantage of it from this point on in. I have even known a few orge players who cared less for flames because they did not want vauls.. So in effect I did a few wounds ,, and it hit them again for a few more wounds before it shut it down.

Poker with cheap casting cost...

Kids err hard to type and grammer,,
Zlatan
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#9 Post by Zlatan »

Finally found someone willing to let me try it! I had a lot of fun with it and we both agreed that although the spells aren't too OP (my opponent actually said he'd rather I took this than Shadow or Life), we both agreed the lore attribute was a bit OTT. It basically meant that I could just keep 6-dicing spells, getting off IF, and my opponent got really stressed by the double whammy of boosted Vaul's + DM at one point.

With this in mind, he's agreed to let me use it again with the following change to the lore attribute:

If the caster rolls a miscast, and can roll equal to or less than his Wizard level, he can choose to end the magic phase immediately instead of rolling on the miscast table.

I also feel shield of Isha should have either 5++ for 5+ casting value, or 4++ for 10+, hex of Morai Heg should be casting value 12+ (wreaks havoc with refills to hit as well on SMs).

I really liked the option to cast Flames at strength 4 initially - made it mic more versatile against Saurus once the skinks were already dealt with. Maybe te casting value should be 18+ though. Seemed on par with dwellers power-wise, especially against low save troops, and bearing in mind raisin the casting value further makes it more tricky to dispel later if you manage to get it off - so there'd be a silver lining at least.

We also agreed to have a ban on Book of Hoeth if using this lore, but to be honest I think that was more my opponent wanting some tit-for-tat for letting me use something non-official in the first place.

Please let me know what you think of the revisions. I'm still interested to know what your thoughts would be if you could take this over other lores.
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Zlatan
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#10 Post by Zlatan »

P.S I had silver wand, so the only spell I didn't get was Wrath of Khaine, which I was pretty pleased about as at least I'm already familiar with it.

Also, I didn't get off Curse of Loec.
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wisetiger7
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#11 Post by wisetiger7 »

I like the spells, and I think you may have achieved everything you wanted to. If I were to comment on anything, I think switching Blessings of Isha and Shield of Lileath might be a prominent idea. I like having the 'choice' of taking the ward save, especially for a lvl 1/2 utility mage. Also I like Drain Magic. Having that as a free spell like it is now would be preferable to... you know... not having it. =P~

The problem I foresee with the lore attribute is that the spells, even in their boosted versions, would rarely require 6 dice. Because of this, most of the time we wouldn't be taking advantage of the lore attribute. Even if we 6diced every spell, it would limit the advantage. Every other lore attribute has something happen every casting or successful casting, not just on double 6s. The fact that it ends the magic phase also presents to possibility of throwing away PD. Otherwise, it makes our magic phases wholly predictable. They will throw their DD at our little spells because they know we're going to drop a sixer as our last spell, probably making it IF and ending the magic phase (making any existing DD useless). Not doing so wastes our lore attribute. There shouldn't be a trade off for power over predictability.

I like the utility of the spells, and probably wouldn't see the need to change them any. I think the lore attribute needs a little alteration, so we benefit from something every successful cast like other lores. The ward save as signature and inclusion of drain magic for free is just personal preference.

Overall, I like it! :D
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cptcosmic
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#12 Post by cptcosmic »

the lore attribute should not shut down the whole magic phase but the ability to cast for the mage that had the miscast imho. there would be no reason to not take a lvl 4 and no other caster.
Ptolemy
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#13 Post by Ptolemy »

How about something like ogres for the attribute...

A HE mage is able to modify any miscasts results in that phase by 1 for each spell the player (any mage on the board) successfully cast (ie - not dispelled) during the phase prior to the miscast.

So...get off a simple spell the enemy doesn't want to wast dice on and you've bought some minor insurance if you want to go for 6 dice on the next spell. Or....you decide to do a bunch of 2 die and 3 die casts and get a pair of spells off before a 2d6 boxcars come up on your final spell.

Turning a miscast of a 4 into a 5 is a massive difference.
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Daeron
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#14 Post by Daeron »

Would my input be accepted?

I like some of the ideas and intents behind this proposal, but the way it is implemented permits quite some horrible scenes. This Lore can basically.. do.. well.. everything?
You can decimate any low armor unit completely:
1) You could cast "Curse of Loec" on the unit, lowering its toughness by 2
2) You could cast "Hex of Morai Heg" on the unit, giving yourself a reroll on the wounds
3) You could cast Flames of the Phoenix on the unit.
Less than 3% of a unit would be standing regardless whether the unit is T3 or T4. From T5, you'd have 11% remaining.. and less than 3% before the player's magic phase is finished. There is no high end spell capable of having that much effect on a single unit.
Only armor can save a handful of models there.
Not even large template, high end spells have these odds.

It trumps Mindrazor. With 2 powerdice you have more than 90% chance to succeed the your boost of +2 strength. Considering the fair amount of high strength attacks on special units, this is sufficient to replace mindrazor. If you really feel this isn't enough to beat mindrazor: add in Curse of Loec. If the enemy has a great deal of armor and you still want to blast him away with spearmen in close combat, then you may need a second mage with high magic. Then, for 4 powerdice, you have nearly the same strength as mindrazor for fewer powerdice, fewer risk on IF, no real danger on the miscasts.

You can lower the leadership of a unit. Take two mages for a deadly -4. It's easy to cause a panic test with the spells in your arsenal. With the ability to lower toughness and strength, you can trump Death magic all the way.
In essence, every Lore has strengths and downsides. Every Lore has tricks. Some race specific Lores can be all-round utility Lores. But this version you posted trumps them all in one go. The only thing that this magic can't beat in one go is a steamtank (but you can damage it, and a few wounds is all that you need) or very heavily armored units. But even there, you tossed in armor piercing on Wrath of Khaine.

Choosing this lore is a no brainer. It would work marvelously well with any other Lore. Not because of synergy.. but simply because this Lore already does everything that any facultative addition to the magic phase becomes amusing. The imbalance doesn't stem from the cast values but the fact it can do anything and everything, at low or moderate cast values, without any risk to take damage on IF... with almost every spell working at a 24" distance. You already added a 66% fail safety to the consequences of IF which can be stacked on top of rolls and Ward Saves. Hm. It has good ideas, but it's just too much for 1 Lore. Unless winds of magic utterly fail you, you can basically blast anything down from a 24" distance, and you can turn any combat into a winner in a single magic phase.

- The blessing of Isha would be a marvel at +1 to hit for shooting and close combat. It's more powerful in some situations, less in others. It can't bump your high elves to Ogres, it can't trump mindrazor on 2 powerdice.
- Does Shield of Lileath really need a 4+ ward save? This would feel excessive. I doubt Shield of Saphery would classify as a weak spell.
- Curse of Loec... I would severely limit the stats it can affect. Either it can go for soft stats, like movement, ws, bs, I and then have a lower cast value or it can go for S or T and have a more limited range with a boost to a longer range.
- Hex of Morai Heg: I would give this a 12" range at 12+, with a boost to 24" on 15+. The power of this spell is humongous. Anything becomes a killing machine with this spell. The combinations you can form on a unit with this spell should make it prohibitively expensive to rank it up so easily to make it a killer combo. I think that should be viable only as a "last ditch effort" on close range.
- Wrath of Khaine: If you're going to throw in armor piercing, you're basically making this spell effective against heavy cavalry. This jump in utility is rather big.. I would increase the cost. This too could be solved with range: limit it to 18" range with a boost to 36" for 11+.
- Flames of Asuryan... boosting this, I dunno.. but I suppose it would work as a high end spell.

This would still boost the utility, still deliver strong combinations... and it wouldn't invalidate every other Lore in the book.
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Dartanelo
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#15 Post by Dartanelo »

Daeron wrote:This would still boost the utility, still deliver strong combinations... and it wouldn't invalidate every other Lore in the book.
I see what you are saying and you do make some good points, but from a fluff standpoint I dont mind High magic invaladating the other lores. It is supposed to be pure magic and not fractured like all the other 8 lores, it makes since that you can do everything, but form a game play standpoint.....
Zlatan
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#16 Post by Zlatan »

@Daeron. You have some really good points there, TBH. This is pretty much a jumble of several ideas I had over a period of a few weeks; I never really conceptualised the lore as a whole, or gave much thought to potential uber-combos or matchups. So the criticism is really welcome and I've always felt it needed toning down to be fair.

I agree that there are some pretty scary combos possible with this lore, but then again aren't similar nasty combos available with other lores (e.g Enfeebling Foe plus Dwellers)?
I accept that most of the scariest combos are only available if you have access to the right lores (empire,HEs, Lizardmen etc), but the above combo would have a similar affect on t3/4 troops as the curse of loec/hex of MH/flames combo you mentioned, irrespective of armour saves.
I also think we have to bear in mind the unlikelyhood of managing to get 3 spells of in the same phase on the same unit (book of Hoeth notwithstanding - its a broken item anyway).
I accept the idea that multiple castings from this lore could be way OP, so I've been considering making it accessible to lvl 3/4 mages only. That at least would make it impossible to have multiple high magic casters in smaller games where it could be especially unbalanced.

I also agree with Dartanelo that I'm quite happy for high magic to be a superior choice to the other lores in most cases - in my view that fits with the fluff. My idea is that you'd take High magic unless you have a very specific magic-based tactic in mind which hinges on a specific spell/group of spells from another lore.

Perhaps you're right that boosting strength by +2 on Blessing of Isha is a bit OTT, but I really want to keep the versatility of the lore fluff wise... How would you feel about +1 to any of those characteristics for 9+?

The range on Hex should probably be reduced, and the casting value increased. Perhaps 12" range for 13, with no boost?

Perhaps removing the option for 4++ on Shield is a good idea too...

I've only actually play tested this once so any other feedback or criticisms would really be appreciated.
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Zlatan
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Re: High Magic updates for 8th Ed.

#17 Post by Zlatan »

So taking as much of everything people have suggested as i can on board, here is a revised version:

High Elf Mage Abilities:
All HE mages have +1 to dispel and know drain magic (with the rules below), regardless of the lore they choose.

Drain Magic: Casting Value 7+. Until the start of the casters next magic phase, all casting rolls of a 6 must be rerolled when attempting to cast spells. In addition, all rolls of a 1 may be rerolled when attempting to dispel.

Lore Attribute - Master of the winds:
For each high magic spell successfully cast, all subsequent High magic spells cast in the same phase -1 from their casting value. This effect is cumulative. In addition, if a high magic caster suffers a miscast for any reason, they may choose to add or subtract up to the total number if high magic spells cast that phase to their roll on the miscast table. E.g if a miscast occurs after three high magic spells have already been cast that phase, the wizard may add or subtract up to 3 from his miscast roll.

Signature Spell - Blessings of Isha:
Casting Value 8+. This is an augment spell with a range of 18". The target unit may add +1 to any one of the following characteristics until the start of the caster's next magic phase: M, WS, BS, S, T, I, Ld. The characteristics to be boosted must be declared when casting the spell, before any casting dice are rolled.
The wizard may decide to increase any two of these characteristics instead. If he does so, the casting value is increased to 12+.

Shield of Lileath: Casting value 5+. This is an augment spell with a range of 24". The target unit gains a 5+ ward save until the start of the caster's next magic phase. The wizard can instead choose to boost the ward save to 4+. If he does so the casting value is increased to 10+.

Hex of Morai Heg: Casting value 12+. This is a hex spell with a range of 12". Any rolls to wound against the target unit may be rerolled until the start of the caster's next magic phase. In addition, any characters in the target unit must reroll successful 'Look out Sir!' saves.

Curse of Loec: Casting value 8+. This is a hex spell with a range of 24". The target unit loses -1 to any one of the following characteristics: M, WS, BS, S, T, I, Ld. The characterstic to be affected must be declared by the caster before any casting dice are rolled.
The wizard can choose to affect any one of the above characteristics by -2. If he does so, the casting value is increased to 12+.

Wrath of Khaine: Casting value 9+. This is a magic missile with a range of 24". The target unit suffers 2D6 S4 hits. The wizard may choose to boost the range of this spell to 48". If he does so the casting value is increased to 15+.

Flames of Asuryan: Casting value 12+. This is a direct damage spell with a range of 24". All models in the target unit suffer a single S3 hit. The spell remains in play, and if still in effect at the start of the caster's next magic phase, all models in the unit will suffer a further S4 hit. All models in the affected unit will continue to take hits at the beginning of each of the caster's subsequent magic phases, with +1S each time, as long as the spell remains in play.
The caster can instead choose to cast the spell to begin at S4 rather than S3. If he does so the casting value is increased to 18+.

Vaul's unmaking: Casting value 15+. This is a hex spell with a range of 30". The target unit must reveal any magic items within the unit, including any magic items belonging to any characters within the unit. The casting player may then choose a single item to destroy. The magic item is rendered useless for the rest of the game.
The wizard can instead force the opposing player to reveal all magic items from every unit within 30" of the caster. If he does so he may still only destroy a single item per casting, and the casting value is increased to 22+.

Any thoughts now?
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