Core, Citizen Levy

[The Silly Dragon]

Had this idea and wanted to just throw it out there. Basically its 1 Core unit entry called Citizen Levy but with tons of equipment options.

Here it is:

Citizen Levy
7pts each
(Same stats as the average Elf, the whole WS4 I5 Ld8 etc).
Infantry
Equipment: Light Armor, Hand Weapon

Options:
May have Shield for +1ppm
May replace Light Armor with Heavy Armor for +2ppm
May have a Bow for +2ppm
May have a Longbow for +3ppm
May have a Spear for free
May have a Halberd for +2ppm
May be mounted on an Elven Steed for +8ppm
If mounted may have Barding for +4ppm

Command: 5pts for Musician and 10 for Champion and 10 for Banner.

Special Rules: Speed of Asuryan (as is now), Martial Prowess (Same), First Among Equals (same).

If mounted with Heavy Armour, Barding and Shield then 1 unit can be 'upgraded' to Silver Helms which will be Core gets +1WS and +1I and replaces their Barding with Ithilmar Barding (no movement penalty) and be equiped with either Lances or Halberds (Halberds free but Lances for +1ppm). To upgrade to Silver Helms (which will still be in Special as a unit choice of their own) is +2ppm.

Bacially the idea to give us the abilty to really choose what type of Core we want and not to be stuck with Archers or Spears.

Some examples:

Citizen Levy:
Heavy Armor, Shield are 10ppm for a 4+ Armor Save and a Parry.
Good defense for those who want survivabilty. Not too expensive to not have in numbers but more expensive than other armies due to ASF still being there (if people complain they are still only S3).

Citizen Levy:
Heavy Armor, Halberd are 11ppm. Not so many of them as the example above but they now hit at S4. Magic can still protect them.

Citizen Levy:
Elven Steed, Light Armor, Spear, Bow, Shield at 18ppm. This gives a round 4+ save shooting cav unit. Should this still have fast cav rules or would it be taking away from Ellyrion Reavers too much?

Citizen Levy:
Heavy Armor, Shield, Spear, Elven Steed, Barding for 22ppm. This gives you a 2+ Armor Save but no Lance unless you pay more points to have them as Silver Helms.

there is also tons of combinations you can do. For instance i can now do my LSG as i picture them being, Heavy Armor, Shield, Longbow for 13ppm. Yeah the same as they are now but actually worth taking and much more expensive to have in numbers then other armies Core so you will be outnumbered but with all the fire power they should even the odds alittle before engaging...which is how in fluff wise the LSG work.

So what do you guys/gals think? Too expensive? Broken combos that i may have missed? needs more restrictions?

[Arch Mage]

Pretty awesome, but then the reavers would need a boost and so would the silver helms. Maybe make them choose between spear bow and shild, only take 2. Awesome idea though I would say make the reavers 19 points and special then give them some other special rule. How about that? As for silver helms make them immune to panic caused by core units and give them special armour to make their VIP taxi status just better!

As I said though, awesome Idea!!!

[The Silly Dragon]

True about the 'other' versions in Special but this is about our Core not a rewrite of all the units. Certainly the Silver Helms and Ellyrion Reavers would be better choices because of some nifty special rules for them that the core versions cannot have. Remember only 1 unit can be upgraded to Silver Helms per Noble/Prince meaning they are normally without Ithilmar Barding and Lances and +1WS and +1I (as these will be the entry for Silver Helms so i did touch that alittle here).

[tdc]

I think giving silver helms initiative 6 would be a bit too much, trampling in dragon prince territory there quite a bit. I do like the idea of the citizen levy build your own core though. That's really nice.

To separate reavers, just don't give the levy fast cav status, keeps it simple. Also I'd just stick to upgrade one unit to silver helms, not one per prince/noble. That way silver helms remain useful in specials too.

[The Silly Dragon]

The reason behind giving them Fast cav was many other armies have fast cav as core and an Elf army should in my opinion be one of them. Fast cav are both in Wood and Dark Elves books but not in ours and all elves are supposed to fast and nimble and the original 'home' of these elves should easily be able field them. But for game balance i can see your point as the all Dark Riders for DE core can be truly terrible to face.

Updated first post and changes are:
No Fast cav for being mounted.
Only 1 unit can be upgraded to Silver Helms.

I feel Silver Helms need to be I6 to help with their 'elite' status as Nobles. They still don't have 2 attacks and 2+ ward to fire that the DP have. Also they should be more viable in lists as not just a VIP taxi which i am not a fan of for any army.

[Arch Mage]

I agree on that, it would be nice to have some heavy cavalry which is usable other than dp. But I wouldn't give them I6 maybe some other rule to give them a role dp can't or are to expensive to do and ellyrion reavers aren't good enough to do and one that isn't VIP taxi.

One role I can think of is steadfast breakers, as such maybe give them something that makes them more survivable, maybe give them a rule that allows them to have a 6+ ward for the turn after they charge? Then that makes stepping up no worry at all and then give them and dp a riders cloak, +1 to the save against shooting. Then if they don't take barding they will survive 2 turns of combat and have m9 so they are better at their role.


For the reavers i think maybe allow one unit of the levy be fast cav for +1 ppm and then let the reavers get some nice special rule, maybe hunters.
Ellyrion reavers may re-roll to wound against any non-infantry model or multi wound model.

How does that sound?

Then I would take a unit of reavers and proxy another as SH which is a large amount of cavalry in my mind :p

[The Silly Dragon]

Remember this is about Core not Special. I am not going into trying to fix Silver Helms or make Reavers better. This simply an idea i had about trying to make our Core both more viable and more flexible then our standard, Archers or Spears choice we have at the moment.

In video games the more options i get from the game (how my charcter looks, age, ingame choices to quests, difficulty, graphics, additional things like kill cams in Fallout New Vegas) the better! If i don't like it i either don't do it (like having a Dwarf wizard in Dragon's Dogma) or don't turn it on (like Kill Cam). If you don't like Halberds for our Core then save the points and don't use them. Again don't like using only Spears and not getting a parry save then don't take the Spear option and vice versa if you do want Spears. Choices is freedom and freedom is the ultimate goal is it not? (wow that was philisophical if me! ).

Keep the ideas comming perhaps i can be convinced to give our Special a try too.

[Arch Mage]

Thanks the reason I opted about SH and reavers was since the core would not make them worth while if you see what I'm saying. So I think that the new core would be awesome but I think you need to mod the specials at the same time hence the suggestions on the special cav. But do you see the point on the SH since they need to have more advantages than just a lance. I think that maybe make the core heavy cav replace the SHs VIP taxi role then as I said make a niche role for the SH and reavers so that they're worth taking as specials, hence the post.

Either way awesome Idea

[Elithmar]

I like it and would enjoy using it, but I think cavalry need to be a bit seperate from infantry. Reavers aren't levy, and neither are silver helms. The silver helms are nobles.

I like them though, and would often use your sea guard build.

[fireblade]

Interesting, this would be a great way to add a more fluffy feeling to the army and open up a great deal of options.

I only would remove the option of barding, as I don't think it's really that common and makes them too much like silver helms...

[Arch Mage]

That is a point, barding is tough on a horse, and not all horses are war horses as such so I think that might be worth reconsidering

[The Silly Dragon]

Thats why i put Barding for +4ppm as i see others doing it for +1-2ppm in their own ideas. Also many armies do have heavy cavalry for core and most cav in new books have been lowered in points anyways. I see what you mean though and something i will consider (are 3+ AS cav for Core too weak or too cheap? 18ppm for 3+ AS atm).

Am having some cool ideas for Silver Helms for special abut nothing yet for Reavers.

[Marwynn]

It's a good idea, and I prefer customization whenever possible. But I chose not to go this route for my most recent swing at an 8th Ed book for one reason: specialization.

It's hard to give the HE Core units the capabilities they deserve via equipment alone. You can frontload a lot of rules regarding gear (Longbows ignore long range penalty, etc) but then you're left balancing costs between combinations.

So I went the specialized route. But I love the variability this offers.

[Natwest]

i would get rid rid of silver helms from special, because this core would make them look stupid and all they really are is a cavalry bus. then upgrade one unit per character to silver helms for suggested points. then reavers can be specialized a bit more so that they are worth it and we still have customizable core. however, i would remove the halberd option as 1) its pg territory and 2 these are citizens not full time warriors, so to me it doesnt quite meet the fluff

[wisetiger7]

I really like the ideas in this thread. Unfortunately, I don't really ever see it happening logistically . It would be very difficult to fit all of this into a kit. A difference between light armor and heavy armor in a kit? How many models? 10? Would it have 10 horses too? 10 infantry legs and 10 mounted legs? 10 Spears, bows, halberds, shields, and so on. Even if there were two or three kits, the variety changes options that are available in boxes. This would direct which options you were prone to choose based on which options came in your kit. One idea I read somewhere opened up to just combining archers, spears, and lsg all into one kit which I can see being very doable. Like the ideas tho! Love the idea of elves actually getting a parry save for once.

[Andrew_uk]

It would be very difficult to fit all of this into a kit. A difference between light armor and heavy armor in a kit?

Different armour options... in a kit?

Looks at archers

It's absurd!

[Shannar, Sealord]

The armor point is a non issue, but he's dead on on the foot vs mounted part.

[The Silly Dragon]

Well wouldn't a company make it two boxes at least? One for mounted and one for foot? At the moment we have 3 (LSG, Archers, Spears). But keep Silver Helms as seperate and make the mounted citizen levy lightly armoured. If people want the heavier cavalry they get the Silver Helms. Simple.

Only an idea anyway and very unlikely to actually happen.

[dundulin]

Old topic alert

This idea would have great merit in the new book,
Replace all core excerpt reavers with 2 unit
1 the levy minus mounted option
2 helms mount and hand hand weapon, then add all the options in the to add variety. All helm units could be different as I'm sure nobles from different kingdoms all have different ways of riding to war

Ps if I have no luck resurrecting this thread I may restart it with credit of course to the op

[The Silly Dragon]

Necromancy! This thread was good and dead

Joking aside I thank you for the interest but not sure what could be added but I like looking back at this and seeing how close I was to getting points costs right.

22ppm Silver Helms? That is close eh?

I would probably do it as Foot soldiers only and leave the Helms and Reavers to their own units.

I still feel Archers should get Light Armour basic and no extra points (come on 6+ is not game breaking or even game changing and it would make for better minis if they ever get round to redoing them). Also S3 core doesn't cut it and I really want Halberds in my blocks. If we did I would take blocks of troops and big units of infantry clashing together makes for a more epic looking game!

[dundulin]

My other army is VC so I'm well acquainted with raising the dead

I still feel this edition could do with that variety in core, it still feels like near pure tax to me with the exception of redirectors.

I'd give options to silver helms also, give the feel of different kingdoms nobles

I may ask my opponent if I can try this out next game, I'm thinking citizens levy, heavy armour, long bow, halberd 14pts, good range, hard hitting

[The Silly Dragon]

Good luck and let me know if its any good or not ingame.

[Rajmahal]

Funny thing is that I believe this is how High Elves worked back in 3rd or 4th edition. There were entries for high elf warriors that could be armed with avrious weapons and armour types. A popular build was to have unarmoured high elf warriors with additional hand weapons AND spears. That way, you would have dirt cheap infantry that could fight with 3 attacks per base frontage (2 from the guy at front and 1 from the back rank spearman). It was before my time as I started playing with the 5th edition high elf book but I remember several tactics threads talking about that option.

[siovim]

I would like to see more variarity in the HE core infantry. The empire has more options for core infantry, and they are humans! not elves who live for milleniums and specialise in several different art forms, counting several different fighting styles and weapons. An high elf should be unpreditable, and our core should reflect that. but as we have both silver helms and reaver knights (mine come from cothique, so i won't call them ellyrians ) the mounted options should not be there. It would be like:

Elven levie 8 pts
equipment: Hand weapon and light armour

spear..............free, replaces hand weapon
longbows........2 pts
halberd...........2 pts
Heavy armour..2 pts
Shield.............1 pts

This would make our current spearmen set up the same, the archers gains light armour, but at the same price and the seaguards gain 6' extra range for a point less.
This leaves wide possibilities for our levies, and we could mix and max our core as we wanted. The combination of the longbow and the halberd could be fun against low armour horde troops for example, and spearmen with heavy armour as well.
Regarding kit, they could use some kind of heavy/crude (but elegant) spear, which could be taken as both halberd and spear, akin to the bretonnian M@A. If they combined the archer and spearmen kits, this could be a possibility in future editions (i hope )
As the lsg aren't levies, they should have some good rules, like keeping their ranks bonus when fighting in water, as they are used to advance through foaming waves, and the seahelm's (who should be able to take heavy armour) navy discipline rule would allow only the seaguards to stand and shoot, and then combat reform. Just to keep them slightly viable from the levies, who would otherwise take over their role. some other advantage could be given to them, as those before are rather minor and situantional.

[dundulin]

Have the core levy
move lothern sea guard to special, option to remove 2 bows from unit to have those men carry a eagle eye bolt thrower for 25 pts
also tbey are used to shooting from moveing boats, onto boats with heaps of cover, at attackers a long way away, make the never -1 to hit
Core options way increased by the levey and sea guard given a real opportunity to compete for a spot in a list

core
Citizen levy as proposed by siovim

Special
lothern sea guard 14 pts
bow, light armour, sheild
eagle eye crew (remove 2 bows) 25pts
trained to move: shooting always hits on a 3+

[siovim]

They are used to shoot at, is not the same as used to hit, and thus giving the lsg always hit with bowshots on 3+ is way to strong, but some rule to justify their lifelong expirences in naval warfare wouldn't be to much to ask. I like the idea of not getting -1 for moving, but that would make them as accurate as sisters of avelorn on long range, and intruding their area as master archers. The eagle eye is already accompaning the lsg in the form of the eagle claw and mounted on skycutters. Carrying more equipment than they already do, would turn them cumbersome and inflexible, penaltying them more than it would add.

Maybe the naval discipline rule by default, and the seahelm improving it to include s&s then combat reform?
Or as they are used to fighting in formation on unsteady shipdecks and beaches, it would they would retain their rankbonus, if the flanking enemy doesn't have more ranks than them??

[dundulin]

Your wright 3+ is to much, maybe 4+(cant dead archers do that?)
I like the naval d rule by default + sea helm improve , its really fluffy and good synergy

Eagle eye cant be too heavy for a unit thag will never march(could make that a unit rule no march with....) its not a full size bolt thrower

[Domine Nox]

Could also base things off of their being marines. So they are designed for ship to ship combat, where the biggest danger is shooting. So maybe if they don't march they can bring their shields up giving them +1 armor save vs shooting.

[Prince of Spires]

Your wright 3+ is to much, maybe 4+(cant dead archers do that?)

That's tomb-king archers. And it's 5+, unless you add Kalida (special character) to a unit I think. Then it's 4+.

You could also give them "water strider" (for all the effect it would have in game).

Rod