Seredain's 2nd 7th Revision - Shiny New and Playtested

[Seredain]

Yeah that sounds about right, so that'd be 25 or 30 for D3 wounds... I don't think any elf is going to wield a 70 point sword! I too like the new 40 point Foe Bane!

D'you think it's reasonably priced at 40 points? That feels about right but I don't want to make it too cheap - it's now a very effective weapon indeed against monsters, though obviously against most foes you're just waving around a flaming sword of might (though this'll make Dryads cry).

Another important point - it's no longer an anti-character weapon like it used to be, since it's power is based around enemies with Unit Strength 3, not 3 Wounds. I nerfed this element firstly to stop it from being too good/expensive but also so it didn't tread on the toes of our other magic weapons, which will be better choices if you're looking to fight man-sized opponents including enemy characters.

[Seredain]

One more thing, on Cloak of Aethis:

How much would a High Elf want to pay for an item which protected him from Killing Blow?. I thought of this for two reasons:

1: It makes the cloak actually useful rather than a bit whimsical;
2: The point behind the fluff of the cloak was that it would protect it's wearer not just from poison but from murder.

So, how much to be protected from all poisons and killing blow? Off-hand I can't think of any items which give KB protection (though I know there are some), so some opinions on how I price this thing will be greatly appreciated. In my experience KB isn't that widespread, but if it's around a lot more than I've noticed, I might be less keen to shove protection on the cloak since I want to keep it as one of those cheap utility items.

Could we include KB protection in a 15 point cloak without it being underpriced?

I'm pretty happy with everything else in the list with the exception of the Pendant of White Light on which I am, for the moment, back to the drawing board.

[tiekwando2]

well armor of zhrakk... for warriors of chaos is immunity to poison, kb, psych, but cannot give ld to others 4+ save, 15 points

crimson armor of Dargan- immunity to KB, never suffer multiple wounds 4+ save is 40 points...

so how much does not giving ld to others subtract from the cost, does immunity to poison and pych nearly cancel it out, and how much is never suffer multiple wounds cost, as well as just a 4+ armor save. So right now your looking at 10-30 with a 20% discount included.

[Seredain]

Ah, thanks that's handy.

Looks like 15 points is a reasonable price after all: looking at the first item, the cloak's lack of 'can't lead' problem is counter-balanced by the lack of the immune to psych bonus, so considering our discount I'd say the cloak is fair at 15 points.

Hmm... Mounted Prince with Foe Bane, Helm of Fortune, Cloak of Aethis and Ring of Lileath (90 points). Should do well against Carnosaurs.

OP edited to include the new-look Sword and Cloak. Thanks for the help there, Tiek - I think it's a better list now. Just got to sort out that sodding pendant...

[geoguswrek]

There was/is a bret item that protected from killing blow, if i recall correctly. THere is also a dwarf rune that does similar. these would be good books to look at (i don't have the points costs for them)

[tiekwando2]

Dwarven rune, 15 points immune to kb and poison

Brets 20 points immune to kb and poison

Why carnosuars they dont do KB, only d3 wounds

amulet, maybe try miscast on double 1's or 2's suffer -1 to their miscast role.
Means they miscast slightly more often, and if they do its much worse for them. Considering they are throwing a lot more dice at spells they should miscast more often, and the -1 to miscast role can be beneficial for them, but usually its worse. Just a thought

[Seredain]

Dwarven rune, 15 points immune to kb and poison

Brets 20 points immune to kb and poison

Sweet.

Why carnosuars they dont do KB, only d3 wounds

Oh yeah... That lizard is crafty. Oh well, the sword will slash him up real nice.

amulet, maybe try miscast on double 1's or 2's suffer -1 to their miscast role.
Means they miscast slightly more often, and if they do its much worse for them. Considering they are throwing a lot more dice at spells they should miscast more often, and the -1 to miscast role can be beneficial for them, but usually its worse. Just a thought

A bit too wide-ranging an effect for the 10-point item I'm envisaging. Nice idea though.

[GobbladasSquig]

I like this project very much. The items and changes are all made with good taste and are overall surprisingly balanced for what is essentially a "wishlist" made by a HE player. Good work, Seredain!

A few of the wordings might need some work, though. Just to be clear (and not having to be FAQ'd in a week after being published ).

Sword of Hoeth: - 65 points

This sword grants the wielder +2 Strength. All his attacks will hit automatically.

"All attacks made with the Sword of Hoeth will hit automatically." We don't want auto-hitting longbows.

Armour of Heroes: - 40 points

Heavy Armour. The bearer and the unit he is with may re-roll failed fear and terror tests. Before allocating attacks against the bearer in close combat enemy models must take a leadership test with a -1 penalty. If this test is failed then their attacks will suffer -2 to hit.

-2 to hit against anyone they want to attack or only the bearer? The word before is a bit confusing. And the -2 only that round, right? Perhaps change to "When allocating attacks against the bearer in close combat enemy models must take a leadership with a -1 penalty. If the test is failed their attacks will suffer a -2 to hit penalty for that round. "

Golden Shield: - 30 points

Grants the bearer a 5+ save. Attacks made against the bearer suffer a -1 to hit penalty.

Attacks only in close combat or ranged attacks too?

Dragonscale Shield: - 25 points

Grants the bearer a 5+ save and counts as dragon armour. Enemy monsters in base contact must test on their own leadership before allocating attacks against the bearer. Enemy dragons test on half their leadership, rounding up. If the test is failed the monster may not attack at all that turn. Note that no monster may use it’s rider’s leadership for the purpose of taking of this test.

I'm really confused with this one. It gives you a 5+ armour save and is dragon armour, but it's called a shield? Does it give you a 3+ armour save in total? Or do you still have to buy heavy armour to get 3+? Does the "counts as dragon armour" only mean you're immune to fire attacks? It's really important to write "Shield." in the beginning of every description of a magical shield. Same applies for the Golden Shield above.

Amulet of Fire: - 20 points

The bearer has MR (1). In addition the bearer and the unit he is with are immune to fire and flaming attacks.

This is too strong. Make it give the unit a 5+ ward save against fire and flaming attacks and if given to a phoenix guard champion increase their ward save to 3+ against fire. Even that is quite strong for 20pts. No need to overdo the whole dragon armour nonsense that the latest HE book introduced. Being completely immune to fire is insane.

Jewel of the Dawn: - 15 points

The mage bearing this jewel generates one additional dispel dice per enemy magic phase.

Why "per enemy magic phase"? What does it mean? Change to "...one dispel dice in every enemy magic phase" if it means that.


Everything else, IMO, is good and clear. Makes new, good character combinations possible, my favourite:

Archmage w/ lvl 3, Annulian Crystal, Jewel of the Dawn, 2 Dispel Scrolls, Gem of Courage
BSB w/ barded steed, shield, lance, dragon armour, Helm of Fortune, Blessed Tome

Comes to 488 points, gives me a stellar magic defence with +1 to dispel, 6 dice and 2 scrolls and a great support BSB, who gives my units extra leadership and can go tarpit stuff with re-rollable leadership 10. Huge quality for an immensely low price.

The magic item section is already getting quite crowded, but I'll give a couple of suggestions too. I feel we really don't have too many Chracian items, pretty much everything is Caledor or Saphery. So:

Blackwood Axe: - 45 points (magic weapon)

Great weapon. This axe causes d3 wounds.

Lion Bracelets of Asarbel: - 35 points (enchanted item)

Grants +1 armour save. The bearer is also immune to psychology. At the start of any close combat phase the bearer may take a strength test. If the test is passed the bearer receives +1 strength for the duration of that close combat phase.

>Simple items, with fluffy monster killing potential. The bracelets are quite strong, but also compete with Loec. These two combined with, say, Cloak of Aethis, would make for a quintessential monster hunter.

[geoguswrek]

gobblas: enchanted items that give +1 armour save is a no-no. Else we can take a guy with a 0+ save relatively easily.

[GobbladasSquig]

0+ armour save isn't that rare, and there would only be one combination of it for a hero. A 0+ re-rollable would be pretty immense, but on the other hand it would have to be a prince mounted on a barded steed. And how many of those do we usually see?

[Seredain]

I like this project very much. The items and changes are all made with good taste and are overall surprisingly balanced for what is essentially a "wishlist" made by a HE player. Good work, Seredain!

A few of the wordings might need some work, though. Just to be clear (and not having to be FAQ'd in a week after being published ).

Hey Gobbla!

Thanks for the awesome kind words. I figured if I was going to make a revision that anyone would actually be willing to play against, I’d have to at least try and keep it balanced!

All of your wording-amendments are spot-on. I’m going to edit the OP tonight (at work at the moment), to include them and also some others with the same ‘anti-errata’ clarity in mind (armour saves “may be combined with other equipment as normal” etc). Golden Shield works against CC attacks only. I’ve taken the DA properties of the Dragonscale Shield out for simplicity’s sake - if people want fire immunity they’ll just have to pay the 2 points.

Ha ha! Yeah... Amulet of Fire has been difficult. Ok, I’ll make it a 4+ Ward. Since flaming attacks don’t happen that often I just don’t think it’ll be worth taking if it’s any worse (also avoids the PG issue you suggested). I hope that’s ok at 20 points?

You’re totally right about dragon armour- I don’t like it much either as it is, though the idea’s cool. I was originally going to include an amendment which made the wearer immune to the ‘flaming element’ of an attack but, where that fire was coupled with a weapon or projectile of some kind, the attack would still count even though the flaming element was ignored (so, if the Lord of Change punches you, or you’re hit by a cannonball that happens to be covered in flaming rags, you’d still feel it!). This threatened to open up a rules-lawyer can of worms but since you raised this issue I may as well try again. Here’s the change as I wanted to word it:

Dragon Armour: models wearing this armour are immune to the effects of all breath weapons, flaming template weapons and flaming attacks caused by spells. Other missile or close-combat attacks against models wearing this armour will never count as flaming.

Note that the effects of this armour will not benefit a monstrous mount ridden by the wearer.

So, the can’s open. Does the above work? I know the bit about missile and close-combat attacks is pretty pointless since we don’t get regeneration, but I’ve included it for the sake of clarity.

Everything else, IMO, is good and clear. Makes new, good character combinations possible, my favourite:

Archmage w/ lvl 3, Annulian Crystal, Jewel of the Dawn, 2 Dispel Scrolls, Gem of Courage
BSB w/ barded steed, shield, lance, dragon armour, Helm of Fortune, Blessed Tome

Comes to 488 points, gives me a stellar magic defence with +1 to dispel, 6 dice and 2 scrolls and a great support BSB, who gives my units extra leadership and can go tarpit stuff with re-rollable leadership 10. Huge quality for an immensely low price.

The thing I love about this project so far is that everyone's come up with different 'favourite combos'

Blackwood Axe: - 45 points (magic weapon)

Great weapon. This axe causes d3 wounds.

Lion Bracelets of Asarbel: - 35 points (enchanted item)

Grants +1 armour save. The bearer is also immune to psychology. At the start of any close combat phase the bearer may take a strength test. If the test is passed the bearer receives +1 strength for the duration of that close combat phase.

The bracelets are pretty cool but threaten to be overpowered considering our new list of magic weapons, since they’re multiple use. You'll see a lot more cavalry princes with this list since most of the magic weapons are now both decent and usable when mounted - a readily available 0+ AS and strength bonus combined will raise eyebrows I think. Also if we included it I’d definitely have to swap out an enchanted item, as we already have 14 of those.

I really like the Blackwood Axe, though. Nice and Chracian and a good name too, so I’d love to include it in the list. Here’s the item as it’ll look:

Blackwood Axe - 45 points

A mighty weapon of silver steel, the haft of this axe was carved from wood taken from the darkest of Chrace’s deep forests. Now it hangs upon the wall of Tor Achare’s great feast-hall, challenging any aspiring hero to bring back a trophy from the deadliest beasts that roam the wild!

This axe follows all the rules for Great Weapons. In addition attacks from this weapon cause not one, but D3 wounds.


The slight problem here is that this takes our Magic Weapon list up to 11 items. My gut tells me this might be too much for a High Elf book, but then I know that magic item variety should be a good point for us… Should we swap another similar-priced item out (Foe Bane is also anti-monster, but I quite like the new version), not include the axe, or can we get away with 11 magic weapons?

Points cost might be another issue - there might be an argument for making this 40 points since it's a great weapon... Obviously the ToL combo on a hero is the one to watch for cheese. I'll do some testing and see what happens.


Thanks again for the feedback.

[GobbladasSquig]

Seredain, you're very welcome. I'm a sucker for these revision projects, really, but this is my favourite.

Dragon Armour: models wearing this armour are immune to the effects of all breath weapons, flaming template weapons and flaming attacks caused by spells. Other missile or close-combat attacks against models wearing this armour will never count as flaming.

Me and my friends have been thinking about changing all these total immunity things to ward saves. You know, like dragon armour giving a 4+ ward save against everything flaming (and of course only for the bearer, not his mount). There is a predecent too, an empire magic item gives a 2+ ward save against flaming attacks. It's just the feel that nothing should be totally immune to a burning axe or a flaming cannonball. The ward save could be 3+, but the point is that the armour should only grant additional protection not total immunity.

The bracelets are pretty cool but threaten to be overpowered considering our new list of magic weapons, since they’re multiple use. You'll see a lot more cavalry princes with this list since most of the magic weapons are now both decent and usable when mounted - a readily available 0+ AS and strength bonus combined will raise eyebrows I think. Also if we included it I’d definitely have to swap out an enchanted item, as we already have 14 of those.

Well, they could also be a piece of magical armour. There are only of 11 of those. The thing about the bracelets is that I think we should have some way of creating a monster hunter that doesn't run away because he's scared of the monster. Hence the ItP. Being high elves, historically the ones that have held the forces of evil at bay, I think our characters are way too vulnerable to autobreak due to fear and terror.

The slight problem here is that this takes our Magic Weapon list up to 11 items. My gut tells me this might be too much for a High Elf book, but then I know that magic item variety should be a good point for us… Should we swap another similar-priced item out (Foe Bane is also anti-monster, but I quite like the new version), not include the axe, or can we get away with 11 magic weapons?

Points cost might be another issue - there might be an argument for making this 40 points since it's a great weapon... Obviously the ToL combo on a hero is the one to watch for cheese. I'll do some testing and see what happens.

Glad you liked the axe. Yeah, 11 is one or two too much. We should definately discard one of the weapons in the 40 point range. I deliberately made it 45 points to deny the ToL combo on a noble, which I feel would be too powerful. And there were too many 40 point weapons already.

Well, there are too many magic items now. Even though we are the high elves, we shouldn't have 8 pages of magical gadgets. So, I'm going to be blunt and name a lot of items to be removed for the greater good. The following may shock some of you, but it must be done.

Discard list

Spear of the Noble Sentinel
White Sword/Foe Bane (one must go because I want my axe in )

Armour of Heroes
Waystone Shield

Vortex Shard
Starwood Staff

Null Stone
Pendant of Vengeance
Dragon Horn

Yeah, some must go, that's just how it is. Sorry Seredain for scrapping some of your babies, but to come up with a balanced list, they had to go.

[geoguswrek]

I think the bracelets will be ok as an enchanted item, since it'll be nice to see lords on horseback come back (i'd use one).

On gobblas discard list, i'd lose the white sword, since the sword of hoeth is essentially the white sword anyway, and it gives us a chracian weapon as well as the foe bane (who else wants to see both those puppies running around?). I agree with all of gobblas nominations for discard, most of the items fall into a niche with something else, though it will be a shame to lose the vortex shard, especially as you could now take it alongside the silverwand.

I think the blessed tome/helm of fortune bsb would become a staple combo, as one of the nastiest force multipliers we have available. Your list makes it possible to take a monster-hunter prince(something like golden shield + gobblas bracelet + 35 points of stuff), it gives options for heroes, and it makes high elf magic pretty efficient with only heroes, which at the moment it isnt.
Ps can you bring back the old drain magic?

[GobbladasSquig]

Yeah, probably something like barded steed, dragon armour, shield, Sword of Might, Helm of Fortune, Cloak of Aethis, Lion Bracelets, for a 0+ re-rollable save, immunity to killing blow, strength 5/6 and immune to psychology. Should be able to pacify most monsters. Another good set would be Enchanted Shield, Vambraces of Defence and the Bracelets plus the same mundane kit plus a lance. That would be the ultimate tank, though admittedly a bit more vulnerable to killing blow. But that would really be the start of a new era in high elven armies, now that we wouldn't have to take the star dragon to be able to counter big monsters.

[Seredain]

Woa! My babies, my poor babies!

This is wear I stand. I think High Elves should have great item selection, especially in the ‘trinket’ categories of Arcane and Enchanted items (many of which are little cheap items), so I’m happy to leave them alone at 13 and 14 respectively (think of the numbers of runes the Dwarfs have and it doesn’t seem OTT - this is magical Ulthuan after all). I have ditched Pendant of White Light (tal) since we've got lots of access to MR and defence now, and on balance it just seems a bit pointless.

Weapons and Armour I’m happy to limited to 10 items each, which seems fair and is anyway a nice round number. That means that the Armour of Heroes says goodbye (poor thing’ll never be used), but the useful little Waystone Shield stays. It also means we only need to lose one weapon if we want to include the Blackwood Axe.

I’m honestly not sure what to do there… I almost can’t bear to lose any of the weapons as they stand: Foe Bane is a classic Doomed-Elf daemon slayer, White Sword is essential since the elves have to have access to KB somewhere (what with all the ‘amazing skill’ fluff), and the Spear of the Noble Sentinel is basically the epitome of the whole project’s emphasis on making the spear central to our army’s theme. I’m a bit stuck to be honest.

This is where the bracers come in. I missed the fact they’re ItP and +1 AS and +1 strength? I like the idea but my problems are: Firstly I don’t think HE should ever get 0+ armour. I know they’re the ‘armoured elves’ (kind of my theme actually), but they ain’t Dwarfs or Chaos. Secondly, the strength bonus is too good considering our access to ASF GW’s and the fact that the new magic weapons list carries several strength bonuses. If the bracers were armour (the only way to justify the +1 save IMO), then a prince with the blackwood axe and ToL would get Str 7 attacks causing D3 wounds plus all the re-rolls! Mental! If the bracers were enchanted, we could have a guy with the Sword of Hoeth causing 4 Str 7 auto-hits - again too much for an elf. No doubt the str bonus would be cool with our current item selection (though Star Lance would be Str 8…), but with the weapons in this revision I think it’s too much.

I love the theme of the bracers, though. I agree that the High Elves ought to have some ability to field a hero who will valiantly ride out and face a dragon solo - like Sleeping Beauty’s Prince! Here’s what I’ve come up with (keeping things simple):

Bracers of Asarbel - 15 points (Enchanted Item)

Asarbel led the great Northern Armies during the first Battle of the Dead Isle. It is said that he feared nothing in all the world except that Ulthuan should fall to the darkness, and countless daemons fell under his axe before he was finally overwhelmed. Whoever now wears his bracers would happily follow him unto death in defence of the Blessed Isle.

The wearer of these bracers is immune to psychology.


Simple and makes up for the loss of my version of Armour of Heroes. If we don’t include the Blackwood Axe there’s also an argument for making the bracers more expensive and adding “when using a great weapon the wielder will cause not one but D3 wounds”, but that’s a bit obscure for an Enchanted Item and it’s probably more useful staying cheap. Also I really don’t want to tread onto “wishlist” territory!

In any event this item replaces the Pendant of Vengeance, which is rubbish and, considering our arcane boosts, probably just not needed ever. I was happy to kill off the Beard-Cloak (who the hell thought of that?), and am happy to let this go too.

As for Drain Magic, I’ve stuck with the current version firstly for simplicity’s sake, but also because the new bound spell makes it potentially very powerful anyway: cast it once, then use the bound (power level 3) for the wopping +6 casting penalty - ouch. I don’t think the spell needs to be better!

EDIT: OP edited to include the bracers (ench) and to remove Armour of Heroes (arm), Pendant of Vengeance (ench) and Pendant of White Light (tal). Also, item description clarified as per the discussions above.

[GobbladasSquig]

This is where the bracers come in. I missed the fact they’re ItP and +1 AS and +1 strength? I like the idea but my problems are: Firstly I don’t think HE should ever get 0+ armour. I know they’re the ‘armoured elves’ (kind of my theme actually), but they ain’t Dwarfs or Chaos. Secondly, the strength bonus is too good considering our access to ASF GW’s and the fact that the new magic weapons list carries several strength bonuses. If the bracers were armour (the only way to justify the +1 save IMO), then a prince with the blackwood axe and ToL would get Str 7 attacks causing D3 wounds plus all the re-rolls! Mental! If the bracers were enchanted, we could have a guy with the Sword of Hoeth causing 4 Str 7 auto-hits - again too much for an elf. No doubt the str bonus would be cool with our current item selection (though Star Lance would be Str 8…), but with the weapons in this revision I think it’s too much.

I don't know if the strength bonus is too much for 35 points, since it comes only on a 3+. And the point in it being enchanted was that you couldn't combine it with ToL. Blackwood Axe and Bracers is 80 points of gear and leaves the bearer as a toughness 3 model with a 4+ armour save. A dark elf assassin would eat him for breakfast. He also is no better in killing rank and file infantry or knights than your average joe high elf prince with a great weapon. The combo is devastating against dragons and characters, but again, it's on a single model on foot. Dark elf armies sometimes have a dreadlord with the Executioner's Axe in a unit of ASF black guard. It's more or less identical with this guy, and I can assure you, it's in no way overpowered.

The Bracers with Sword of Hoeth on a prince with the dragon prince kit is somewhat stronger, but still only toughness 3 with a 1+ save. And it's technically a 100 point weapon, it should make some damage. 4 autohits on strength 7 (on a 5+ strength 6), is it that much stronger than the "all hits wound automatically, no armour saves allowed" weapons?

I agree that the Bracers are a strong item, but due to their cost IMO not overpowered at all. I don't mind them being a piece of magical armour, if you guys feel like they should. Nor do I mind dropping the +1 armour save and keeping them enchanted, if you think it's better that way. I just think we ought to have a strong, aggressive enchanted item in the 30-40 point range. We can't make half our items trinkets of 10-20 points.

[geoguswrek]

seredain: can't have the bracers at 15 points, suddenly i'm taking a champion with them.

[Seredain]

Gobbla,

I won't say you don't make a good case! I'm just wary about chucking strength bonuses about - I think it might change the 'feel' of the list a bit much. Foe Bane is a good enough anti-monster weapon without the +1 Str.

seredain: can't have the bracers at 15 points, suddenly i'm taking a champion with them.

Oh crap that's a point. Geogus can you set out the full ItP special rule for me so I can examine this properly?

Thanks.

OP edited to point out that the bracers are under discussion.

EDIT: New braces proposed:

Bracers of Asarbel - 40 points

The Chracian lord Asarbel commanded the great Northern Armies during the first Battle of the Dead Isle. It is said that he feared nothing in all the world except that Ulthuan should fall, and countless daemons fell under his great axe before he was finally overwhelmed. Whoever now wears these bracers would happily follow him unto death in defence of the Blessed Isle.

The wearer of these bracers is immune to psychology. In addition, when wielding a great weapon in close combat, the wearer's attacks will inflict not one but D3 wounds.


Aggressive, pricey, fits Asarbel's fluff (what a dude), gets the axe in without adding to the weapons list.

Edited to finalise item-description.

[geoguswrek]

I don't know off the top of my head, the problem is that characters joining units, i have a feeling do nothing for ITP, but a champion is only a character with regards to challenges and randomization.

[Seredain]

I don't know off the top of my head, the problem is that characters joining units, i have a feeling do nothing for ITP, but a champion is only a character with regards to challenges and randomization.

Doesn't that mean there would therefore be no point in giving a champ ItP?

Edit: Oh I see, so you're saying that the champ will count as just part of the unit and therefore grant the whole unit ItP? That would obviously be silly. It's easily covered by an item description, though - Note that no character or unit champion will ever bestow this immunity to a unit he has joined or is part of.

If that's possible then I still quite like the cheap braces - more possible combinations - but you have a point about us having pletny of trinkets already... I'll go away and have think on it. In the meantime I've edited the OP to include the proviso above.

[GobbladasSquig]

Hey, I like the new bracers. Totally embodies the Chracian spirit. Are those now an enchanted item? If they are, I think they could cost only 40 points. I'd like to see a Golden Crown, Cloak of Aethis, Bracers combination. I mean if that's not a Spartan king, what is?

[Seredain]

Hey, I like the new bracers. Totally embodies the Chracian spirit. Are those now an enchanted item? If they are, I think they could cost only 40 points. I'd like to see a Golden Crown, Cloak of Aethis, Bracers combination. I mean if that's not a Spartan king, what is?

40 points would be perfectly reasonable, yes, since you'll have to pay for the great weapon separately, you'll only get the D3 wounds and full strength bonus when on foot, and your attacks won't be magical.

It's a deal. - OP edited to include the new-look 40 point bracers to replace Pendant of Vengeance. A good item!

Edit: Yep, they're an enchanted item.

[Seredain]

Me and my friends have been thinking about changing all these total immunity things to ward saves. You know, like dragon armour giving a 4+ ward save against everything flaming (and of course only for the bearer, not his mount). There is a predecent too, an empire magic item gives a 2+ ward save against flaming attacks. It's just the feel that nothing should be totally immune to a burning axe or a flaming cannonball. The ward save could be 3+, but the point is that the armour should only grant additional protection not total immunity.

Had a think about this and on balance I totally agree. A ward save is really effective, but sensible, and also a lot easier to work with than my 'immune to fire but not necessarily flaming attacks' idea. I've stolen it and edited the OP to include the following:

Dragon Armour: grants the wearer with a 3+ ward save against fire, flaming attacks and all breath weapons. Note that it will not benefit a monstrous mount should the wearer have one.

Good call there, Gobbla.

[geoguswrek]

the new bracers are pretty nice, but they are bloody expensive, and its dificult to get a decent monster-hunter with them on. (and seeing as they are meant as a monster hunter item, this seems a problem)

[Seredain]

Making them a little cheaper wouldn’t actually make any difference since they’re an enchanted item, which makes item selection a little awkward whatever the price is (and we had to put them in enchanted really, partly due to the nature of the item but also to prevent cheese Loec combos). Obviously choosing a magic weapon isn’t on, you can’t have arcane and you can’t have another enchanted item, so you’re stuck with armour and talisman choices.

On foot you’re probably looking at the Bracers, AoC and GP - total 90 points plus the GW.

On horse (assuming you’re ok with the str5), you can have him with Helm of Fortune and GP for 2+ re-rollable AS and WS 5+; or you can go for Golden Crown and Cloak of Aethis for 2+ AS, MR (1), Ignore first wound, Immunity to poison and KB; or you might choose the Vambraces for 3+ re-rollable AS and WS 4+.

As for the points cost itself, I’ve priced ItP at 10-15 points and D3 wounds at 25 - 30, averaging out at 40 points. Since the D3 wounds is combinable with a strength bonus from a great weapon, I thought 40 points a fair price.

If you want a prince with ever-so slightly less hacking potential but better armour, you’d go for Foe Bane on a cavalry prince (though he wouldn’t be ItP). That’s obv not giving you the massive killing potential of D3 wounds, but you would at least have access to Loec…
On the other hand, Foe Bane only works against monsters and daemons, whereas the bracers will also work against all man-sized characters.

Tough choices, eh?

[geoguswrek]

Seredain: you are right, plus, for 40 points i can take it on a noble, which is pretty nice.

[Seredain]

Yeah, Captain's Helm works well on a noble with the bracers.

If you want a dedicated monster hunter, try this:

Prince, Mounted Kit;
Foe Bane, Dragonscale Shield, Guardian Pheonix, Talisman of Loec.

Wounds on a 2+ against ogres etc, monsters and daemons with total AS modifier of -2. Monsters test on own leadership or can't attack (dragons at half). Armour save 1+, Ward Save 5+.

ToL is there to finish his beast but also so he can kill things like knights where he doesn't get the full benefit from the sword (most of the time it's just a flaming sword of might).

Shove him in a small retinue of silver helms - say 5 with Lion Banner - to protect him from shooting and terror and to throw a bit of static CR into the mix (+1 Banner, +1 Outnumber).

[geoguswrek]

and this lets me take 2 monster hunter characters plus a bsb, which is what i wanted to be able to do in the old book.

[Seredain]

OP Updated:

Revision remains the same but for the following additions:

Amulet of Light: - 15 points

All hits caused by the bearer and the unit he is with, in combat or with ranged weapons, will count as being caused by Magical Attacks.

Dragon Princes: now take up 2 rare choices (since we have double), and have the Heroic Charge special rule.

Silver Helms: cost 21 points per model. Barding is optional and taken at +2 points per model.

[geoguswrek]

magical bolt throwers