Foundations - A(nother) High Elf re-think -minus ASF-

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Aesir Stormranger
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Foundations - A(nother) High Elf re-think -minus ASF-

#1 Post by Aesir Stormranger »

Hey all,

I certainly don't claim to be a rules guru, or anywhere in the same league as some of the excellent ideas-people we have here on Asur.org.

However, I just happen to have a soft-spot for the High Elves and more than a few free nights, so, may I humbly present my incomplete re-worked High Elf Army List for general inspection and (dis)approval!

Note: At this stage, this is only the 'foundations' of the army. Special Rules, costs, units. I haven't delved into Magic Items, or indeed an Honours system yet. I feel that they hold some of the greatest potential for imbalance, so I wanted to wait and see what others thought about the list first before going ahead with those things.

The Defenders of Ulthuan

Army Special Rules

Uses the standard composition scale (ie 3+ Core @ 2000pts etc)

Asur Discipline: The High Elves have faced many foes over the centuries, and all have eventually fallen to the blades and arrows of the Asur. Unmatched discipline is the hallmark of High Elven warfare, and with supreme confidence in themselves and their abilities, the Asur are typically unfazed by sights and situations that would unhinge even the most stoic of combatants.

All models with this rule are Immune to Panic.

Valour of Ages: As per the current book.

Unique Equipment

Warglaive
A long and lean pole-arm, the Warglaive is a uniquely Asur weapon largely similar in design to a traditional halberd. However, these weapons are far lighter, intended to utilise the naturally superior dexterity of the Elves. This by no means makes the weapon any less deadly, with many of its schools and disciplines emphasising economy-of-force to deliver lethal, efficient blows to specific weak-points in an opponent’s defence.

An Asur Warglaive counts as a two-handed weapon which imposes a -1 penalty to enemy Armour saves. In addition, it confers a +1 Strength bonus to the user in the same turn in which they have charged.

Dragon Armour
Dragon Armour counts as being Heavy Armour, with the added property of being immune to all Flaming attacks and spells, excluding those launched from War Machines.

Lion Cloak
As per current book.

Units

-CORE-

Citizen Bow Levy @ 12pts per model
As per current Archers in stats and options.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Valour of Ages,

Talons of the Raven:
Citizen Bow Levy may fire their longbows with an extra rank when shooting at long range.

-

Citizen Glaive Levy @ 9pts per model
As per stats of a regular Citizen Levy elf.

Equipment - Hand Weapon, Warglaive, Light Armour.

Options - May replace Light Armour with Heavy Armour for 1pt per model.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Valour of Ages.

-

Citizen Spear Levy @ 9pts per model
As per stats and equipment of current Spearmen.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Valour of Ages.

Phalanx Formation:
Enemies attacking a unit of Spear Levy to the front count as fighting against a defended obstacle if the Spear Levy unit has not moved in its preceding turn. This effect is nullified if the Spear Levy unit is concurrently engaged in the flanks or rear during the same combat.

Teeth of the Lion: Spear Levies may use their spears in an extra rank when fighting to the front.

-

Ellyrian Reavers @ 18pts per model
As per stats and equipment of current Reavers.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Fast Cavalry Valour of Ages.

-

Lothern Sea Guard @ 12pts per model
As per stats and equipment of current Sea Guard.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Valour of Ages.

Mistfire Bodkins: Shots fired from the bows of the Sea Guard (and the longbows of any characters currently joined with them) count as being Flaming, and impose a -1 penalty upon any Armour save being taken against them.

Loose Formation: Sea Guard may choose to reform their ranks in the Movement phase without incurring any penalty for movement.

-SPECIAL-

Phoenix Guard @ 15pts per model
As per stats and equipment of current Phoenix Guard.

Special Rules - Cause Fear, Immune to Psychology, 4+ Ward save.

-

Shadow Warriors
Exactly as per current rendition. May take AHW for +2pts per model.

-

Silver Helms @ 25pts per model
As per current rules, except now with WS 5, In 6 and Ld 9. May take 50pt magic standard.

Special Rules: AD, VoA.

Thunderous Charge: If they are declaring a charge at the start of a turn, Silver Helms may add a total of +2” to their normal charge movement for that turn. In addition, during a turn in which they charge, Silver Helms are Immune to Fear.

-

Sword Masters of Hoeth @ 15pts per model
As now.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Scions of the White Tower: Always Strike First.

-

White Lions of Chrace @ 15pts per model
As now.

Special Rules - AD, Stubborn, VoA.

Strength of the Lion: White Lions may strike in normal initiative order with their great weapons.

Woodselves: As per Woodsmen.

-

Lion Chariot of Chrace @ 120pts per model
As now for stats and unique rules.

Special Rules - AD, VoA, Fear, Chariot.

-

Tiranoc Chariot @ 85pts per model
As now. May take 1-2 per Special slot.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Eyes of the Eagle: Tiranoc Chariot crew (including any characters) do not suffer the -1 to hit penalty for moving and shooting with their bows (or longbows).

-RARE-

Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 39pts per model
As per now except: WS 6, In 7. May take a 75pt magic standard. 3+ in a unit.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Fury of the Dragon: Dragon Princes gain +1 Strength and are Immune to Psychology for the duration of any turn in which they have charged.

Pride of Caledor: Dragon Princes must issue or accept a challenge (if able to) at the start of any combat in which they are involved. In addition, any Dragon Prince model may take part in a challenge, not just a Drakemaster.

-

RBT @ 100pts
As per now. 1-2 per Rare Slot.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

-

Great Eagle @ 50pts
As per now. 1-2 per Rare Slot.

Special Rules - Fly.

-HEROES-

Noble @ 80pts
As now. Options for Warglaive and Lion Cloak @ 6pts each. May now also ride in a Lion Chariot for @110pts.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Mage @ 100pts
As now. May now also ride in a Lion Chariot for @110pts.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Aegis of Calm: The Mages of the White Tower are particularly adept at shaping and manipulating the Winds of Magic, and are able to calm a raging eddy of arcane power into a peaceful zephyr. As long as at least one Mage or Archmage is on the table, a High Elf player gains an additional +1 bonus to their dispel attempts.

-

Warseer @ 90pts
WS 5, BS4, S3, T3, W2, I6, A2, Ld8.

May choose weapons as per Noble, excepting Longbows.
May choose Light, Heavy or Dragon Armour.
May choose a mount as per Noble, plus Sun Dragon for current points cost.
May choose any magic item totalling up to 50pts, excepting Shields.

Is a Level 1 Wizard with access to Fire, Shadow and Light lores.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Battle Magic: As per Reckless.

Warrior Mage: Warseers and Spellswords may cast spells as per normal whilst wearing armour.

-LORDS-

Prince @ 140pts
As now. Options for Warglaive and Lion Cloak @ 8pts each. May now also ride in a Lion Chariot for @110pts.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

-

Archmage @ 225pts
As now. May now also ride in a Lion Chariot for @110pts.

Special Rules - AD, Aegis of Calm,VoA.

-

Spellsword @ 190pts
WS 5, BS4, S3, T3, W3, I6, A2, Ld9.

May choose weapons as per Prince, excepting Longbows.
May choose Light, Heavy or Dragon Armour.
May choose a mount as per Prince, minus Star Dragons
May choose any magic item totalling up to 100pts, excepting Shields.

Is a Level 3 Wizard with access to Fire, Shadow and Light lores.

Special Rules - AD, Battle Magic, Warrior Mage, VoA.

-MOUNTS-
As per current book.

-MAGIC-
Lore of High Magic as per current book.

Magi and Archmagi gain Drain Magic as standard no matter what lore they choose. Someone's got to put a stop to Druchii sorcerous shenanigans.

==
Rationes Decidendi:

I basically set out with this to increase and encourage more flexibility in the HE army. I personally feel that ASF, whilst giving us a necessary boost, also 'Flanderised' much of the army. The unique composition rules in 7th, whilst again making the army playable, seems to me to have simply covered over some of the inherent issues within the army. Hence, they are both gone, in favour of far more 'docile' Army Special Rules, giving more room to give units a greater sense of individuality and flavour. Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves and Wood Elves were used for paritive purposes.

On that note, I also felt that, truth be told, the HE army doesn't really seem to know what it's doing with itself. It includes certain elements of a traditional line-of-battle army, mixed with Elven maneuvre warfare elements. An interesting combo, but I feel that this has lead to a sort of 'thematic schizophrenia,' with these two aspects of warfare counteracting each other. For example, Spearmen want to be lined up to face the foe, but lack the fortitude or numbers to hold the line as other armies' main battle units can and should do. On the other end of the scale, generally speaking, the HE are not as able to take advantage of elven nature and stats, primarily, maneuverability, as can the Druchii and Asrai. They lack the plentiful Scouting and Flying units of each, relying on blocks of troops instead...back to line warfare.

I think this may have left the GW designers in a rut, as they (as yet) have not seemed to have sat down and worked out quite which way the HE should go. This seems to be shown by the relatively conservative and restrictive natures of the 6th and 7th Ed books, as compared with some of the other revisions seen in other armies. They can't give us the resiliant units we need for line warfare, or uber magic, but they also can't give us the truely fast, mobile elements of the other elves. It'd just be too powerful.

Because of this, it is my assertion that currently the HE have to fall back on its 'sheer power units,' Teclis, Dragons, etc, and relatively simplistic strategies to absolutely maximise what strengths we have. HE armies these days seem to be very heavily min-maxed as standard, as compared with the flexibility, again, of the other Elves.

So, instead of trying to staddle the line and find an impossible middle ground (without returning the HE to the bad old days of best-at-everything warfare), I chose to give the High Elves a clearer 'sense of self' by formatting the army along the lines of the Wood Elves and Dark Elves. Silver Helms have been upped to the 'Special Cavalry slot,' with DPs moved to Rare to stop competition, and Ellyrian Reavers, the essential Core Fast Cav, have been dropped to Core.

Speaking of Core, I've tried to now give the units clearer, intersupportive roles. Spear Levies seem to be the HE main battle unit, so have been buffed so that they can bear the brunt of fighting without being overbearing. They still shouldn't be able to hold out in an attrition fight which is elven nature. Archers now have a little bit more firepower to justify their cost as compared with the other Elven ranged units, and Lothern Sea Guard are now more of an all-rounder. The Glaive Levy was an attempt to introduce more choice in the Core 'engine room' of the army, and to provide a support unit for the Spear Levy.

And, of course, the Warseer and Spellsword are the replacements for the Dragon Mage, hopefully making him more flexible, whilst providing for the seemingly popular 'Mage-Knight' character.

Overall, in terms of background and magic items, I would like to place further emphasis upon the HE's affinity for the arcane. It's about the only unique thing we have left, as the WE and DE (along with other armies) have generally taken all of the standard elven thematic stereotypes. I'm thinking not so much in terms of raw power and ability, but rather magic's prevalence in HE society, and ergo, warfare. Special rules such as Mistfire Arrows and Scions of the White Tower are meant to allude to this, but I'd like to take it further.

So..um, what y'all think of it, as a 'foundation' list? Am I heading in the right direction? :P
[img]http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d5/nzbfbm/northenrbannercothique.jpg[/img]

[b]Meldarion Hitheredir, Castellan of Tor Draug[/b]
WarpPhoenix
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:45 am

Re: Foundations - A(nother) High Elf re-think -minus ASF-

#2 Post by WarpPhoenix »

Aesir Stormranger wrote:Hey all,

I certainly don't claim to be a rules guru, or anywhere in the same league as some of the excellent ideas-people we have here on Asur.org.

However, I just happen to have a soft-spot for the High Elves and more than a few free nights, so, may I humbly present my incomplete re-worked High Elf Army List for general inspection and (dis)approval!

Note: At this stage, this is only the 'foundations' of the army. Special Rules, costs, units. I haven't delved into Magic Items, or indeed an Honours system yet. I feel that they hold some of the greatest potential for imbalance, so I wanted to wait and see what others thought about the list first before going ahead with those things.

The Defenders of Ulthuan

Army Special Rules

Uses the standard composition scale (ie 3+ Core @ 2000pts etc)

Asur Discipline: The High Elves have faced many foes over the centuries, and all have eventually fallen to the blades and arrows of the Asur. Unmatched discipline is the hallmark of High Elven warfare, and with supreme confidence in themselves and their abilities, the Asur are typically unfazed by sights and situations that would unhinge even the most stoic of combatants.

All models with this rule are Immune to Panic.
I dont see why we need to be immune to panic? We have high leadership in general and I assumed that was to show how stoic we are? If anyone was to have this it would be dwarves.

Valour of Ages: As per the current book.

Unique Equipment

Warglaive
A long and lean pole-arm, the Warglaive is a uniquely Asur weapon largely similar in design to a traditional halberd. However, these weapons are far lighter, intended to utilise the naturally superior dexterity of the Elves. This by no means makes the weapon any less deadly, with many of its schools and disciplines emphasising economy-of-force to deliver lethal, efficient blows to specific weak-points in an opponent’s defence.

An Asur Warglaive counts as a two-handed weapon which imposes a -1 penalty to enemy Armour saves. In addition, it confers a +1 Strength bonus to the user in the same turn in which they have charged.
I dont get this either, seems like a infantries spear but worse because you need both hands to use it? This is slightly worse than a halberd because we have strength 3 to start with, and does the -1 also count with the strength bonus? If so you might as well just give us armour piercing halberds, which isnt ridiculous at all.

Dragon Armour
Dragon Armour counts as being Heavy Armour, with the added property of being immune to all Flaming attacks and spells, excluding those launched from War Machines.
The only problem people have with this is that it can stop them hitting our dragon, just keep it the same and stop it from affecting monster mounts with more than 4 or more wounds.

Lion Cloak
As per current book.

Units

-CORE-

Citizen Bow Levy @ 12pts per model
As per current Archers in stats and options.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Valour of Ages,

Talons of the Raven:
Citizen Bow Levy may fire their longbows with an extra rank when shooting at long range.
This is ok. I think they should still only cost 11, I think they are overpriced as they are, so giving them this rule would bring them upto eye level imo, all it would help with is space saving on the field, and the only reason you'd really want that is to stop panic from chaining from archers...which with this list they wont do.

-

Citizen Glaive Levy @ 9pts per model
As per stats of a regular Citizen Levy elf.

Equipment - Hand Weapon, Warglaive, Light Armour.

Options - May replace Light Armour with Heavy Armour for 1pt per model.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Valour of Ages.

Better give these guys 2 attacks or its a complete wash, these guys get charged or dont break the unit they're in combat with on the first turn and they're gone. Because of the warglaive you gave them they cant have a shield and even heavy armour wont stop the most basic troops. 5(6) attacks from the front at perhaps strength 4 at WS4? I dont see this going too far but its a different style to spears and arrows I guess.

-

Citizen Spear Levy @ 9pts per model
As per stats and equipment of current Spearmen.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Valour of Ages.

Phalanx Formation:
Enemies attacking a unit of Spear Levy to the front count as fighting against a defended obstacle if the Spear Levy unit has not moved in its preceding turn. This effect is nullified if the Spear Levy unit is concurrently engaged in the flanks or rear during the same combat.

Teeth of the Lion: Spear Levies may use their spears in an extra rank when fighting to the front.
I like this, however it requires you to be standing still for a whole turn, so you'll never really get charged if your opponent sees what you're doing. You move foward, he moves foward, you sit there, he goes around you. Just give them the defending rule and make them 10 points and be done with it, they lost their ASF so they would need it to keep up their macho image they have today.

-

Ellyrian Reavers @ 18pts per model
As per stats and equipment of current Reavers.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Fast Cavalry Valour of Ages.

-

Lothern Sea Guard @ 12pts per model
As per stats and equipment of current Sea Guard.

Special Rules - Asur Discipline, Valour of Ages.

Mistfire Bodkins: Shots fired from the bows of the Sea Guard (and the longbows of any characters currently joined with them) count as being Flaming, and impose a -1 penalty upon any Armour save being taken against them.

Loose Formation: Sea Guard may choose to reform their ranks in the Movement phase without incurring any penalty for movement.
If these guys now have longbows why would I ever take archers? These guys have spears, flaming bows, same range and all I have to do to make up the difference is spread them 10 wide instead of 5x2, which i dont need to do because my bolt throwers are going to be immune to panic.

-SPECIAL-

Phoenix Guard @ 15pts per model
As per stats and equipment of current Phoenix Guard.

Special Rules - Cause Fear, Immune to Psychology, 4+ Ward save.
The ItP hurts them more than it helps them, you've given them protection from terror but you hardly get outnumbered by terror causes and you've robbed them from the ability of optional flee, they already cant panic so theres no need to give it to them.

-

Shadow Warriors
Exactly as per current rendition. May take AHW for +2pts per model.
Perfectly reasonable (maybe 1 point isntead of two, they're already expensive.)

-

Silver Helms @ 25pts per model
As per current rules, except now with WS 5, In 6 and Ld 9. May take 50pt magic standard.
Nah, these arnt heavy heavy cav, they're fine how they are, the only problem with them is that they're not in the core section, no one will take them even with these changes because they dont have 2 attacks each, and 10 attacks at str 5 is worth the extra points per model compared to 5 str 5.

Special Rules: AD, VoA.

Thunderous Charge: If they are declaring a charge at the start of a turn, Silver Helms may add a total of +2” to their normal charge movement for that turn. In addition, during a turn in which they charge, Silver Helms are Immune to Fear.
immune to panic, immune to fear on the charge, ld 9. I get the impression you dont like leadership tests? ;p. if you keep this option then make them unbarded, have them as medium cav that have a huge striking distance, a threat sometimes helps more than an actual charge.

-

Sword Masters of Hoeth @ 15pts per model
As now.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Scions of the White Tower: Always Strike First.
Yep.

-

White Lions of Chrace @ 15pts per model
As now.

Special Rules - AD, Stubborn, VoA.

Strength of the Lion: White Lions may strike in normal initiative order with their great weapons.

Woodselves: As per Woodsmen.
Mhmm.

-

Lion Chariot of Chrace @ 120pts per model
As now for stats and unique rules.

Special Rules - AD, VoA, Fear, Chariot.

-

Tiranoc Chariot @ 85pts per model
As now. May take 1-2 per Special slot.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Eyes of the Eagle: Tiranoc Chariot crew (including any characters) do not suffer the -1 to hit penalty for moving and shooting with their bows (or longbows).
Since we now have basic army comp I guess this is warented, but tironic chariots arnt a missile platform really. Id suggest renaming the ability though, since eagles eyes implies that the crew are really good at shooting, so why would a character benefit from it? Perhaps have it to do with the chariot itself to make sense.

-RARE-

Dragon Princes of Caledor @ 39pts per model
As per now except: WS 6, In 7. May take a 75pt magic standard. 3+ in a unit.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Fury of the Dragon: Dragon Princes gain +1 Strength and are Immune to Psychology for the duration of any turn in which they have charged.

Pride of Caledor: Dragon Princes must issue or accept a challenge (if able to) at the start of any combat in which they are involved. In addition, any Dragon Prince model may take part in a challenge, not just a Drakemaster.

So, grail knights? Except better? You seem to have just bumped all our cav up a level, sivler helms in the place of DP and then a new class of cav above that, of which the elves arnt famous for at all, bretonnians have spent all their lives on horses and have a whole culture based around it, and suddenly dragon princes come along and trumph them? Nah I dont think we need THIS much power.

-

RBT @ 100pts
As per now. 1-2 per Rare Slot.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

-

Great Eagle @ 50pts
As per now. 1-2 per Rare Slot.

Special Rules - Fly.
Taken away our ability to take 3 bolts and 1 eagle, I disagree with it because it encourages the people who took 3 bolts to now take 4 instead and no eagle. Id sooner drop another 50 poitns and my eagle to throw in another bolt than go with 2 in my current comp, but thats probably jsut me, i can see people just taking 2 as they do now.

-HEROES-

Noble @ 80pts
As now. Options for Warglaive and Lion Cloak @ 6pts each. May now also ride in a Lion Chariot for @110pts.
is the lion cloak an armour option? if it is then dont bother, dragon armour is better. I do like the lion chariot option though.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Mage @ 100pts
As now. May now also ride in a Lion Chariot for @110pts.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Aegis of Calm: The Mages of the White Tower are particularly adept at shaping and manipulating the Winds of Magic, and are able to calm a raging eddy of arcane power into a peaceful zephyr. As long as at least one Mage or Archmage is on the table, a High Elf player gains an additional +1 bonus to their dispel attempts.

-

Warseer @ 90pts
WS 5, BS4, S3, T3, W2, I6, A2, Ld8.

May choose weapons as per Noble, excepting Longbows.
May choose Light, Heavy or Dragon Armour.
May choose a mount as per Noble, plus Sun Dragon for current points cost.
May choose any magic item totalling up to 50pts, excepting Shields.

Is a Level 1 Wizard with access to Fire, Shadow and Light lores.
Needs an upgrade to make it level two. I can see this mage having armour of caledor and guardian phoenix and just being a tank mage that cant do much. Its a nice though but I really dont think we need a warrior mage, nor is there any anythign in the high elf lore to lend itself to powerful warrior mages.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

Battle Magic: As per Reckless.

Warrior Mage: Warseers and Spellswords may cast spells as per normal whilst wearing armour.

-LORDS-

Prince @ 140pts
As now. Options for Warglaive and Lion Cloak @ 8pts each. May now also ride in a Lion Chariot for @110pts.

Special Rules - AD, VoA.

-

Archmage @ 225pts
As now. May now also ride in a Lion Chariot for @110pts.

Special Rules - AD, Aegis of Calm,VoA.

-

Spellsword @ 190pts
WS 5, BS4, S3, T3, W3, I6, A2, Ld9.
All you get is a wound and 1 more leadership, why take this guy? Give him another attack and +1 WS.

May choose weapons as per Prince, excepting Longbows.
May choose Light, Heavy or Dragon Armour.
May choose a mount as per Prince, minus Star Dragons
May choose any magic item totalling up to 100pts, excepting Shields.

Is a Level 3 Wizard with access to Fire, Shadow and Light lores.
level fourrrrrrrrr, and why cant he use other magic? He's also cheaper than the archmage with the same ability apart from a few lores and MORE options on gear. You can have this guy with a 2+ rerollable, 4+ ward AND seerstaff to chose his spells, holy balls?

Special Rules - AD, Battle Magic, Warrior Mage, VoA.

-MOUNTS-
As per current book.

-MAGIC-
Lore of High Magic as per current book.

Magi and Archmagi gain Drain Magic as standard no matter what lore they choose. Someone's got to put a stop to Druchii sorcerous shenanigans.
Even though its more effective on wood elves and VC? ;p

==
Rationes Decidendi:

I basically set out with this to increase and encourage more flexibility in the HE army. I personally feel that ASF, whilst giving us a necessary boost, also 'Flanderised' much of the army. The unique composition rules in 7th, whilst again making the army playable, seems to me to have simply covered over some of the inherent issues within the army. Hence, they are both gone, in favour of far more 'docile' Army Special Rules, giving more room to give units a greater sense of individuality and flavour. Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves and Wood Elves were used for paritive purposes.
You made HEs more aggressive than they already were, throwing around immune to fear and immune to panic/pysch you've given us leadership saftey to run foward without caution, and with our still frailness its a protection with no foundation. Immune to panic is nothing to sneeze at, chaos have to pay throguh the nose to have that on all their untis and as such they'll have a smaller force, we cant get it for free, no way no how. ASF is powerful, yes, but its only useful in one phase of the game, immune to panic has uses across the board and makes for a brick of an army. If this army came out id just take megatons of core without fear of them running away and id keep my warrior mage on the front line staying alive and keeping up stubborn on everyone in 12" making one massively awesome front line that would be hard to break through.

On that note, I also felt that, truth be told, the HE army doesn't really seem to know what it's doing with itself. It includes certain elements of a traditional line-of-battle army, mixed with Elven maneuvre warfare elements. An interesting combo, but I feel that this has lead to a sort of 'thematic schizophrenia,' with these two aspects of warfare counteracting each other. For example, Spearmen want to be lined up to face the foe, but lack the fortitude or numbers to hold the line as other armies' main battle units can and should do. On the other end of the scale, generally speaking, the HE are not as able to take advantage of elven nature and stats, primarily, maneuverability, as can the Druchii and Asrai. They lack the plentiful Scouting and Flying units of each, relying on blocks of troops instead...back to line warfare.
Druchii and Asrai have their reasons. the Drucii are raiders by nature, loose formations going in quick, killing from afar and terrorizing the enemy. The Asrai are forest dwellers, if they didnt skirmish in small groups then they'd be useless in their own homeland. We on the other hand have large open fields and are proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with eachother for a glorious fight, our ego gets in the way of the rules. And our elven movement can be capitalised even in blocks and I have seen it do so many times over. I would say it is actually less effective in scout form, because any unit that is a scouting unit usually has movement 5 anyway, so we wont outrun other scouts. But being a block unit we can outcharge other slower moving blocks, outrun them, outwheel them too. Blocks are usualy slow moving, ours are not and if you know how to use it it can really be a force to be reckoned with.

I think this may have left the GW designers in a rut, as they (as yet) have not seemed to have sat down and worked out quite which way the HE should go. This seems to be shown by the relatively conservative and restrictive natures of the 6th and 7th Ed books, as compared with some of the other revisions seen in other armies. They can't give us the resiliant units we need for line warfare, or uber magic, but they also can't give us the truely fast, mobile elements of the other elves. It'd just be too powerful.

Because of this, it is my assertion that currently the HE have to fall back on its 'sheer power units,' Teclis, Dragons, etc, and relatively simplistic strategies to absolutely maximise what strengths we have. HE armies these days seem to be very heavily min-maxed as standard, as compared with the flexibility, again, of the other Elves.
They are min maxed because that's basically what the elves do. Elven generals know what to bring to the field and it states in the Army book that any general that does not bring A LEAST a single eagles claw to the field is a fool. Why bring archers to a spears fight? Why bring swords to a forest? No other elves have resiliant units like you want, we jsut arnt a resiliant race, its just how it goes. The onyl armies that have rock hard units on foot are chaos and dwarves, and because chaos have armour of the gods and dwarves are master smiths of which there are no equal. We dont need to sit and take a beating. Our battle line is fine as it is, each of our untis are great at what they need to do and ironically I believe this is true for the white lions, swordmasters and spearelves BECAUSE they have ASF, phoenix guard can strike first all day but they wont kill anything >.>

So, instead of trying to staddle the line and find an impossible middle ground (without returning the HE to the bad old days of best-at-everything warfare), I chose to give the High Elves a clearer 'sense of self' by formatting the army along the lines of the Wood Elves and Dark Elves. Silver Helms have been upped to the 'Special Cavalry slot,' with DPs moved to Rare to stop competition, and Ellyrian Reavers, the essential Core Fast Cav, have been dropped to Core.
This is a smart choice in terms of flexibility, but then we get even closer to dark elves and we dont want that because we cant compete on equal grounds, we need to be different, not fight our weaker fire against their clearly stronger fire. Those silver helms will still get topped by cold ones, the reaver will still get topped by DE fast cav (and wood elves fast cav) and dragon princes will be redirected all day long, just like grail knights do. I can see what you're doing but I dont think the option to our problems is to line us upto the impossible bar of dark elves, they have their style and it really works for them, we have ours and it does really work for us, its just harder for us because some of our items lack and our troops are still out of the loop slightly.

Speaking of Core, I've tried to now give the units clearer, intersupportive roles. Spear Levies seem to be the HE main battle unit, so have been buffed so that they can bear the brunt of fighting without being overbearing. They still shouldn't be able to hold out in an attrition fight which is elven nature. Archers now have a little bit more firepower to justify their cost as compared with the other Elven ranged units, and Lothern Sea Guard are now more of an all-rounder. The Glaive Levy was an attempt to introduce more choice in the Core 'engine room' of the army, and to provide a support unit for the Spear Levy.
But the archers dont have more firepower, they just dont need a hill anymore if you want them in 5x2, The sea guard are stronger at shooting now because of the -1 and equal range to the archers at the same points, not only the same points but they dont pay for their armour like the archers do! But it doesnt end, if they are threatened they can then reform and fight in both ransk with the spears they have as well as stand and shoot with 5 guys, what?! I dont like the glaive guys jsut because they serve no purpose, they have the ability to fight of the phoenix guard (which is slim to none) and none of the safety.

And, of course, the Warseer and Spellsword are the replacements for the Dragon Mage, hopefully making him more flexible, whilst providing for the seemingly popular 'Mage-Knight' character.
These characters are amazing on paper, the hero not so much but the options for the lord are just out of this world, he is a serious front line holder, with all the support spells you could choose with seerstaff and the protection of the vambraces and caledor combo you can do a hell of a lot more than a prince or an archmage, I can see the way id build an army with these rules, lots of core consisting of sea guard, white lions in the woods, 2 bolts in the back, dragon princes on the side ready to hit the stubborn troops with the hard to kill lord in it, that ironically, is keeping them all stubborn and in place, with small units of swordmasters on the sides ready to countercharge, or even white lions on the counter.

Overall, in terms of background and magic items, I would like to place further emphasis upon the HE's affinity for the arcane. It's about the only unique thing we have left, as the WE and DE (along with other armies) have generally taken all of the standard elven thematic stereotypes. I'm thinking not so much in terms of raw power and ability, but rather magic's prevalence in HE society, and ergo, warfare. Special rules such as Mistfire Arrows and Scions of the White Tower are meant to allude to this, but I'd like to take it further.
I like what you've done but I know why I like it, I like it because its in the other army books, its ideas that have been introduced. Dont get me wrong you've put SOME of them in the right places but they arnt really needed, I applaud you for putting time into this though, more time than I would and bravo for putting up, id gladly make a list with these ruels and play a few friendlies with you to try them out and id probably enjoy, but mostly because the things I need to do with the army are put infront of my face and I dont really need to try too hard. You've tried to give flexibility, but in doing so you've boosted less used units into a must have and already used units into gods, leaving behind only your own invention, the warglaives, and archers. Oh and eagles will become extinct with this, the princes are too good to not take (lolgrailknights) and the bolt throwers are 2 to a rare, every HE army would have 2 bolts and a unit of grails (i mean princes), Core would be seaguard to fill all 3 spots, maybe reavers if you felt like you wanted to be a little faster than usual, special would be silver helms and swordmasters/lions covered by 2 chariots that impact anything soft and your lord would be a frontline warseer that killswith gusto and keeps the troops in check.

So..um, what y'all think of it, as a 'foundation' list? Am I heading in the right direction? :P
Yeah its in the right direction, but you seem to have strayed off and covered grounds that have been covered boy other armies, like i said its great that you did this and id use it for freindlies, but I jsut wouldnt see it being a popular change to the list for soem of the reasons I spoke of, sorry.
Hey, does this cloth smell like chloroform?
Citizen Militia
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Foundations - A(nother) High Elf re-think -minus ASF-

#3 Post by Citizen Militia »

I love some of the suggestions put forward way back in 2004!!!

It would be cool if Tiranoc chariots could move and shoot without penalty but with them only having 2 crew I dont think you would need to change the points most people seem to prefer the Lion chariot now anyway but I do think the old chariot has its uses.

I like the idea you had for Archers being allowed to shoot with an extra rank if its long range that would be really good.

LSG need something to make them worth picking because at the moment I dont know anyone who would choose them. making it so they could reform for free would be ideal. Also with your rule about archers if you brought that in for the LSG they could sit on a hill and they could shoot in 3 ranks

With SHs I've always felt they need something because theyre good but as everyone else always says why wouldnt you spend 9 points more and get DPs - how about making it so that their helm itself gives a 6+ AS which can be combined with other equipment, therefore a total 1+ AS
since returning to the game after a 5 year break I have had 1 massacre loss, 3 minor losses, 2 draws, 3 minor wins, 3 solid wins, 2 massacres :)
Asur Aman
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Foundations - A(nother) High Elf re-think -minus ASF-

#4 Post by Asur Aman »

I feel your thinking is in the right direction on a lot of this.
Helms as core
archers, shoot in 2 ranks
Seaguard , free reform,maby 2 hand weapon (pros after all), fire bodkins one round only 8)
spears, heavy armor
shadows 2 hand weapon
This would be plenty of a boost I think without to much change or complication.
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