Haven't posted my amended rules in awhile (swing away)

All discussions related to Warhammer Fantasy Battles from 1st to 8th edition go here, including army construction, comp creation, campaign and scenarios design, etc...
Post Reply
Message
Author
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

Haven't posted my amended rules in awhile (swing away)

#1 Post by Gondarion »

Yep, this still has ASF in it. I'm less married to it, except for one thing: Like a number of other rules, the cat is out of the bag, and trying to remove ASF from the high elf book won't change the fact that Daemons and VC are chock full of this (which is why all list should be changed in unison...)

ASF could be changed to strike in Initiative order, but if it as I'd want to see Slaanesh daemons and all other ASF stuff be the same (not to mention another reason to get rid of items like the Nightshroud). I think we're past the point of no return, unless the amendments are all written together, which we're doing on another site but not here.
Last edited by Gondarion on Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

#2 Post by Gondarion »

UNIVERSAL RULES

A battle standard bearer cannot provide its special re-roll bonus if it is entirely inside a wood or behind a large piece of terrain for example, any unit to which the Battle Standard cannot be seen by at least a single model cannot get the bonus (models which cannot see the BSB itself because of simple LOS blockage due to models are unaffected).

Models armed with bows or longbows gain the following:

-May shoot in two ranks (3 if on a hill) if they have not moved this turn.

-If it says so, a unit may purchase flaming arrows for the specified amount. Flaming arrows count as flaming attacks. Note that they are move-and-fire.

SPECIAL RULES

Atypical Core/Special/Rare allotment remains as is (maybe 3/6/3?)

Unless stated otherwise, high elf mages provide +1 to all attempts to dispel.

The name "Speed of Asuryan" is gone (read further to see what happens with the rule)

Valour of Ages as is

Martial Prowess now reads:

-Always strikes first in combat

-May fight and fire in one additional rank with spears and bows, even if they have moved this turn. Such is the High Elves particular dexterity with the spear that attacks by any model on foot subject to this rule ignore the "Parry" HW+S bonus.

First among equals only applies to Spears. Otherwise as is.

NEW RULE: Morvael's Legacy: Never suffers any to hit penalty for long range. A unit subject to this rule is never subject to Martial Prowess.

NEW RULE: Warrior Mage

-Does not provide +1 to dispel as with other high elf wizards, and cannot use high magic.

-Reckless now include both the old "Reckless" and "Warrior Mage" rules.
Otherwise as is.

HIGH MAGIC

Drain Magic 7+: Lasts until the beginning of the caster's next magic phase. All casting attempts of spells, bound spells and Incantations have -3 deducted from the casting roll/Power Level; These affects apply to friend and foe alike. Further uses of this spell are cumulative, so a second casting of drain magic in the same magic phase would impose -6 to all casting rolls, and so on. Note that this deduction is from the total roll, so it has no effect on IF or miscasts caused by double 6's or Double 1's (Note: uniquely, Skaven ARE affected by this, as their version of IF is a 13, so Drain Magic can either nullify or even grant an IF as a result). note also that if the total deduction is enough to make a bound spell/incantation go off on PL0 or less, it does not go off successfully, and it does not count as being used.

1. Shield of Saphery 5+: as is

2. Curse of Arrow Attraction 6+: as is

3. Fury of Khaine 8+: as is

4. Courage of Aenarion 8+: as is

5. Flames of the Phoenix 11+: as is

6. Vaul's Unmaking 12+: as is.

Archmages and Mages may have up to two arcane items each from Vauls' Forge. Note that Warrior Mages, Dragon mages and lords/nobles who are wizards do not have this ability; only archmages and mages.


A Prince, Noble or Warrior Mage may each have ONE of the following honours (or an Archmage/mage, where specified), which do not count towards magic item allotment:

Horsemaster 10 points: Must ride unbarded steed. Follows all rules for fast cavalry, and suffers no penalties for moving and shooting.

Shadow Walker 30 points: Gains special rules Scout, Nagarythe Hatred. May not ride a mount. Must be either alone on foot or in a unit of shadow warriors.

Hunter 20 points: Comes with a Lion cloak and may only be on foot or ride in a lion chariot (+130), replacing the crew, which counts as a special choice. Is immune to fear for the purposes of attacking enemies and may re-roll to-wound rolls against enemies US3 or greater.

Swordmaster 30 points: May not ride a mount. Gains +1WS and Killing blow. Does not get this bonus if using any weapon which counts as a spear or halberd.

Seafarer 25 points: Must either be on foot or on a flying mount. The character and any unit he joins may re-roll failed psychology tests, and any to-hit rolls on shots when declaring a stand-and-shoot.

Drake Master 20 points: High Elf Lord only. Must ride a dragon. As long as the rider is alive, both rider and mount are immune to panic. Any dragon ridden by this character may use his rider's LD for the rest of the battle if his rider is slain, and need not test on the Monster Reaction chart.

Citadel Guardian 25 points: The army must have at least one unit of spears for each Citadel guardian. One unit of spears in the army gain +1WS and may carry a magic banner up to 50 points (this unit counts as the First among Equals, so only a single unit of spears may take a 50 point banner; taking multiple Citadel guardians does not allow multiple units of spears to have a 50 point banner). In addition, any unit of spears accompanied by this character is immune to panic as long as he remains in the regiment.

Scholar of the White Tower 15 points. Mage or Archmage only. This mage may nominate any spell up to his magic level as the default spell. For example, if the mage is L3 and is using high magic, he/she may choose either shield of saphery, curse of arrow attraction or fury of khaine as the default spell.

Magus of Truth 30 points: Archmage only. Must use high magic. Any unit targeted by a spell cast by a character with this honour must reveal any and all magical items, daemonic gifts, hidden characters, etc in the unit. The archmage may choose to swap drain magic for the following spell:

BANISHMENT 11+: Only affects Daemonic and Undead units. May be cast on any enemy unit within 12". Unit suffers 2d6 wounds with no armour or regeneration ward allowed (normal and daemonic wards may be used).

Any archmage with the Banishment spell inflicts an automatic wound in each player's magic phase on all Daemonic/Undead model in base contact. Armour and regeneration saves may not be used against these wounds.

CORE

Archers

Special Rules: Valour of Ages, Morvael's Legacy
Stats: as is
Equipment: Longbow, light armour
Cost 10
Command: 5/10/5

Spears

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, First among equals
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 9
Command: 8/8/4

Sea Guard

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment: Spear, bow, light armour, shield
Cost: 13
Command: 10/10/5. Any unit of Sea Guard may carry a magic standard up to 25 points.

SPECIAL

Silver Helms

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Undoubted Mettle, Valour of Ages
Stats: WS5, otherwise as is
Equipment: Lance, heavy armour, shield. Rides elven steed.
Options: May choose to have barding at no cost.
Cost: 24
Command: 14/14/7. Any unit may have a magic banner up to 25 points. Champion may have a magic item up to 25 points.

NEW RULE--Undaunted Mettle: A unit with this rule may re-roll all psychology tests.

Ellyrian Reavers

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Fast Cavalry
Stats: WS5, otherwise as is
Equipment: as is
Options: as is
Cost: 17
Command: 14/14/7. Champion has 2A instead of BS5. Any unit may purchase a magic banner up to 25 points. Champion may have magic items up to 25 points.

Dragon Princes

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Reckless Valour, Valour of Ages, Dragon Armour
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 33
Command:18/18/9. Any unit may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Drake master may carry up to 25 points worth of magic items

NEW RULE: Reckless Valour: Any unit subject to this rule is immune to psychology when declaring their first charge

Sword Masters

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 14/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Bladelord may have up to 35 points worth of magic items.

White Lions

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, woodsmen, stubborn, lion cloak
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 12/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Guardian may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.

Phoenix Guard

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Cause Fear, 4+ ward save.
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 12/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Keeper of the Flame may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.


Shadow Warriors

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Nagarythe Hatred, Scout, Skirmish
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 14
Command: Shadow Walker +12.

Tiranoc Chariot

Special Rules: Chariot, Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: WS5, Otherwise as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 85

Lion Chariot of Chrace

Special Rules: Chariot, Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Cause Fear
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 140

RARE

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Volley
Stats: as is
Equipment: hand weapon, light armour
Cost: 100

Great Eagle

Special Rules: Fly
Stats: as s
Equipment: as is
Cost: as is

Lord of the Eagles:

M WS BS S T W I A LD
2 5 0 5 4 4 4 3 9

Special Rules: Fly, Cause Fear, Lord of the Eagles
equipment: talons (hand weapon)
Cost: 90
Slot: 1 rare

NEW RULE: Lord of the Eagles: Any great eagles in the army may use its LD. Despite having 4W, eagle lords are such adept flyers that they do not count as large targets. Additionally, due to dwelling in magic-saturated mountains and forests, an eagle lord has MR:1.

However, eagle lords are rare and reclusive, and will aid the elves in battle only in times of massive war and upheaval. A high elf army may only have 1 Eagle lord for every lord choice taken in the army. For example, if you have 1 High Elf Lord and 1 Archmage, you can have 2 Eagle Lords.


CHARACTERs

Lords

High Elf Lord:

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May not use high magic.
Stats: as is
Equipment Options: As is, except Great Weapon now costs 15 points
Mount options: As is, except Star Dragons now take both a hero and two rare slots. Also, riding in a chariot counts as a special slot, the character replaces the crew.
Cost: 175

Archmage:

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 3 wizard. May upgrade to L4 for +35 points
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is
Mount options: as is
Cost: 225

Heroes

Noble

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is, except cost of great weapon increased to 10
Mount options: as is, except riding in a chariot counts as a special slot, the character replaces the crew.
Cost: 85

Dragon Mage

M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 4 4 3 2 5 2 8

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Reckless, Warrior Mage
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May upgrade to L2 for +35. Always uses fire magic.
Stats: as is
Equipment: As per Noble, but may not purchase any armour, magical or otherwise
Rides: Sun Dragon.
Cost: 350

Warrior-mage

M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 5 4 3 2 6 3 8

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Warrior Mage
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May upgrade to L2 for +35.
Equipment Options: As Noble, but may not purchase any armour, magical or otherwise. May not be the BSB.
Mount options: as noble
Cost: 125pts

Mage

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 1 wizard. May upgrade to L2 for +35 points
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is
Mount options: as is
Cost: 100


Magic Items:

Common items:

Sword of Striking 10 points
Sword of Battle 15 Points
Sword of Might 15 points
Biting Blade 5 points
Talisman of Protection 5 points
Enchanted Shield 10 points
Staff of Sorcery 40 points
Power Stone: 20 points
Dispel Scroll: 25 points
War Banner 20 points

MAGIC WEAPONS

Sword of Twilight 80 points: wielder gains +1 to hit, +1S and +2A

Bow of the Seafarer 60 points. Treat as a normal longbow except that all hits from this weapon are resolved as if it were a single shot from a bolt thrower.

Sword of Hoeth 55 points: This sword adds +2S to the wielder's attacks. In addition, any unsaved wounding hit is multiplied to d6 wounds against any daemonic or undead foes, chaos spawn or any foe with a chaos mark.

Star Lance 40 points. Counts as a lance. Grants +3S on the charge, and allows no armour saves when charging.

Reaver Bow 40 points: Counts as a normal longbow, except it can be fired 3 times in the shooting phase. All hits from this bow are resolved at S5.

Blade of Sea Gold 40 points. No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused by this weapon.

The White Sword 35 points. Sword Master/Bladelord only. Two handed weapon which grants +2S as if it were a great weapon. Additionally, it confers +1A.

The Singing Glaive 30 points. Counts as a Halberd. All attacks from this weapon count as armour piercing. In addition, all enemy models in base contact have their WS halved, rounding up.

Spear of Crashing Waves 25 points. Counts as a spear. May re-roll to hit and wound when charging.

Daggers of Nagarythe 10 points. Shadow Walker (honour) only. Counts as two hand weapons. Attacks made by these daggers are Armour Piercing.

MAGIC ARMOUR

Aegis Unyielding 40 points. Counts as heavy armour which can be combined with other equipment normally. Grants the wearer a 4+ ward save.

Golden Shield 30 points. counts as a shield and can be combined with other equipment normally. Attempts to hit the bearer in combat must be re-rolled.

Armour of Stars 30 points. A unit champion may never wear this armour. Otherwise as in current book.

Armour of Caledor 25 points. Counts as dragon armour.Grants a 2+ AS which cannot be improved.

Helm of Fortune 25 points. Adds +1 to the armour save of the wearer, and can be combined with other equipment normally. The wearer may re-roll failed armour saves.

Dragonscale Shield 20 points. Counts as a shield, and confers a 4+AS which can be combined with other equipment normally.

Dragonspine Greaves 15 points. Adds +1 to the wearer's armour save and can be combined with all other equipment normally. In addition, all melee attacks by the wearer count as flaming and magical in addition to their other effects.

Mask of the Merlord 10 points. Adds +1 to the armour save and can be combined with other equipment normally. In addition the wearer may move through aquatic terrain without penalty.

TALISMANS

Vambraces of the Ancients 55 points. Gives the wearer a 4+ ward save. In addition, the wearer may re-roll failed armour saves.

Pendant of Cynath 50 points. The Character gains a 4+ ward save. In addition, the pendant may be used to protect members of his unit. Once per turn, the character may extend the pendant's protection to one other member of the unit, giving them a 4+ ward save against one wounding hit (before rolling for number of wounds, if a multi-wound weapon). If the save is failed, the bearer of the pendant takes the wound rather than the original target.

Talisman of Saphery 35 points. Magic weapons carried by enemy models lose all their special rules and count as mundane weapons of that type as long as they remain in base contact with the bearer of this item.

Circlet of Lileath 35 points. The wearer is immune to killing blow and can never take multiple wounds from a wounding hit. In addition, the wearer may re-roll all look out sir rolls and Initiative tests.

Sacred Incense 30 points. All shooting directed at the bearer and any unit he is with is at -1.

Guardian Phoenix 25 points. 5+ ward save.

Amulet of Fire 20 points. MR:1, bearer is immune to flaming attacks of any kind.

ARCANE ITEMS

Book of Hoeth 100 points. With the exception of snakeyes, all doubles rolled successfully casting spells causes IF.

Vortex Shard 75 points. One use only. May be activated in the magic phase of either player. When activated, the magic phase automatically ends, all RIP spells are dispelled and all dice stored in items is lost.

Starwood Staff 50 points. The bearer of this staff adds +1 to all his casting rolls, and -1 is deducted from all attempts to dispel spells cast by the bearer.

Sigil of Asuryan 50 points. One use only. Works like a dispel scroll, but in addition, on a roll of 2+, the caster may not cast that spell again for the duration of the battle.

Scepter of True Force 40 points. Magus of Truth only. Enemy models may not take ward saves against spells cast by the wielder.

Seer Stone of Saphery 30 points. Bearer may choose his spells instead of rolling for them.

Trickster's Pendant 30 points. whenever an enemy wizard miscasts, your opponent must roll twice on the miscast chart, and you pick which of the two results will apply.

Ring of Corin 20 points. One use only. Casts Vaul's unmaking on PL4.

Staff of Solidity 20 points. The bearer does not roll on the miscast chart after his first miscast. Note that the spell still fails.

Elemental Glyph 15 points. One use only. At the beginning of the game, choose a spell costing no more than 6+ from whichever basic lore the mage is using ( high magic may not be used with the elemental glyph). This item may cast that spell at its basic cost. In addition, melee attacks by the character will count as magical until your next magic phase.

Jewel of The Dusk 15 points. The bearer gains +1PD in each of his magic phases.

Mask of the Annulli 10 points. At the beginning of the game, the bearer nominates a single unridden great eagle. The bearer may use the LOS of the Great Eagle for any spells he casts. Note that the range of the spells are still measured from the Mage.

Silver Wand. 10 points. The bearer knows an additional spell.

ENCHANTED ITEMS

Null Stone 100 points. No wizard within 6" of the bearer may cast any spells. No spells will affect the bearer, his mount or any unit within 6". No other magic or rune item within 6" will work; treat as a normal weapon, banner, etc. Note that this applies to friendly units/items/spells as well as the enemy.

Folariath's Robe. 45 points. May only be given to a character on foot. The wearer may not be harmed or affected in any way by mundane close combat or shooting attacks. However, he may not attack or fire a missile weapon, though he may cast spells as normal. Additionally, the wearer may move through all but impassable terrain with no movement penalty.

Radiant Gem of Hoeth 40 points: Prince or noble only. Character becomes a L1 mage, or if already L1, a L2 Mage. Additionally, the bearer now has access to high magic.

Vial of Isha 40 points. One use only. The character with this item or any character in base contact may drink this potion at the start of any phase of either players turn. It immediately restores the all wounds lost by the character during the battle so far. This item can also be used to restore the wounds of the characters mount, but may not heal more than 3 wounds maximum. Dead characters may not be revived by this item.

Annulian Crystal 40 points. In each enemy magic phase, remove a PD from his basic pool and add it to your dispel pool.

Ring of Fury 40 points. May be used to cast Fury of Khaine on PL4 once per magic phase.

Cloak of the Aesanar 35 points. Shadow walker (Honour) only. Character and the unit he is with can't be targeted by shooting or spells that need LOS from more than 12" away. In addition, Dark Elves Fear the wearer of this cloak.

Dragonhorn 25 points. One use only. May be used at the beginning of any of your turns. Until your next turn, all friendly high elf units may re-roll all psychology tests.

Bracers of the Golden Eaves 20 points. May only be given to a character on foot. If the character is using a mundane longbow, the range of his bow is increased to 48"; gains +1S; and may be fired twice. Note that shots fired from a magic bow are unnaffected by this item.

Runestone of Vaul 15 points. All close combat attacks made by the bearer gain AP, in addition to their other properties. If already AP, this does not stack.

Amulet of Light 15 points. Attacks by the bearer and any unit he is with count as magical.

Gem of Calaer 10 points. One use only. The bearer (and the unit he is with) may take one LD test on 3d6 and choose the lowest two.

Talisman of Loec 10 points. One use only. May be activated at the beginning of a combat phase in either players turn. In that phase only, the bearer of this item may re-roll to hit and wound, and enemies must re-roll all successful saves of any knid against attacks made by the bearer. However, at the end of the turn, the bearer takes an automatic wound with no save of any kind allowed

MAGIC BANNERS

Standard of Ulthuan Undying 90 points. Adds +D6 CR to any close combat the bearer (and his unit) is involved in.

Banner of the World Dragon 60 points. The bearer and any unit he is with are completely immune to any and all spell affects.

Banner of Saphery 50 points. Adds +D3 power dice to your main pile in each of your magic phases.

Standard of Balance 45 points. The bearer, the unit he is with and all models in combat, friend or foe, are immune to psychology. In addition, all of these models lose hatred and frenzy if they have it, and can never gain it back as long as they are in base contact with the bearer or his unit.

Emblem of the House Guard 35 points: Spears or BSB only. All successful armour saves against wounds caused by this unit must be re-rolled. Note that a character in the unit does not gain this bonus unless he is a Citadel Guardian, even if he is the BSB, and his unit does not gain these benefits unless it is a regiment of spears.

Sea Drake Oriflamme 25 points: Spears, Sea Guard or BSB only. The unit may re-roll to wound against all foes US4+ or who have 4 wounds or greater. Note that a character in the unit does not gain the bonus unless he is a Sea Farer, even if he is the BSB, and his unit may not gain this benefit unless it is a Spear or Sea Guard regiment.

Standard of Brilliance 25 points: One use only. May be activated at the start of either player's turn. Until the beginning of that player's next turn, all enemies attempting to fire at the unit or attack it in close combat have their WS/BS halved, rounding down.

Banner of Arcane Protection 25 points. Grants the unit bearing it MR2.

Lion Standard 25 points. The bearer and any unit he is with is immune to fear and terror.

Pennant of Ielthan 25 points. Sea Guard only. All missile weapons in the unit except magic bows count as magical, flaming and armour piercing.

Banner of Ellyrion 15 points. The bearer and any unit he is with may pass through all but impassable terrain with no penalty. May not be given to a BSB mounted in a chariot.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

#3 Post by geoguswrek »

Gondarion wrote:
UNIVERSAL RULES

A battle standard bearer cannot provide its special re-roll bonus if it is entirely inside a wood or behind a large piece of terrain for example, any unit to which the Battle Standard cannot be seen by at least a single model cannot get the bonus (models which cannot see the BSB itself because of simple LOS blockage due to models are unaffected).

Models armed with bows or longbows gain the following:

-May shoot in two ranks (3 if on a hill) if they have not moved this turn.

-If it says so, a unit may purchase flaming arrows for the specified amount. Flaming arrows count as flaming attacks. Note that they are move-and-fire.

SPECIAL RULES

Atypical Core/Special/Rare allotment remains as is (maybe 3/6/3?)

Unless stated otherwise, high elf mages provide +1 to all attempts to dispel.

The name "Speed of Asuryan" is gone (read further to see what happens with the rule)

Valour of Ages as is

Martial Prowess now reads:

-Always strikes first in combat

-May fight and fire in one additional rank with spears and bows, even if they have moved this turn. Such is the High Elves particular dexterity with the spear that attacks by any model on foot subject to this rule ignore the "Parry" HW+S bonus.

First among equals only applies to Spears. Otherwise as is.

NEW RULE: Morvael's Legacy: Never suffers any to hit penalty for long range. A unit subject to this rule is never subject to Martial Prowess.

NEW RULE: Warrior Mage

-Does not provide +1 to dispel as with other high elf wizards, and cannot use high magic.

-Reckless now include both the old "Reckless" and "Warrior Mage" rules.
Otherwise as is.

HIGH MAGIC

Drain Magic 7+: Lasts until the beginning of the caster's next magic phase. All casting attempts of spells, bound spells and Incantations have -3 deducted from the casting roll/Power Level; These affects apply to friend and foe alike. Further uses of this spell are cumulative, so a second casting of drain magic in the same magic phase would impose -6 to all casting rolls, and so on. Note that this deduction is from the total roll, so it has no effect on IF or miscasts caused by double 6's or Double 1's (Note: uniquely, Skaven ARE affected by this, as their version of IF is a 13, so Drain Magic can either nullify or even grant an IF as a result). note also that if the total deduction is enough to make a bound spell/incantation go off on PL0 or less, it does not go off successfully, and it does not count as being used.
Nothing should stop incantations going off. the whole point of incantations is they are reliable. this is a problem with the spell. otherwise its fine.

1. Shield of Saphery 5+: as is

2. Curse of Arrow Attraction 6+: as is

3. Fury of Khaine 8+: as is

4. Courage of Aenarion 8+: as is

5. Flames of the Phoenix 11+: as is

6. Vaul's Unmaking 12+: as is.

Archmages and Mages may have up to two arcane items each from Vauls' Forge. Note that Warrior Mages, Dragon mages and lords/nobles who are wizards do not have this ability; only archmages and mages.


A Prince, Noble or Warrior Mage may each have ONE of the following honours (or an Archmage/mage, where specified), which do not count towards magic item allotment:

Horsemaster 10 points: Must ride unbarded steed. Follows all rules for fast cavalry, and suffers no penalties for moving and shooting.

Shadow Walker 30 points: Gains special rules Scout, Nagarythe Hatred. May not ride a mount. Must be either alone on foot or in a unit of shadow warriors.

Hunter 20 points: Comes with a Lion cloak and may only be on foot or ride in a lion chariot (+130), replacing the crew, which counts as a special choice. Is immune to fear for the purposes of attacking enemies and may re-roll to-wound rolls against enemies US3 or greater.

Swordmaster 30 points: May not ride a mount. Gains +1WS and Killing blow. Does not get this bonus if using any weapon which counts as a spear or halberd.

Seafarer 25 points: Must either be on foot or on a flying mount. The character and any unit he joins may re-roll failed psychology tests, and any to-hit rolls on shots when declaring a stand-and-shoot.

Drake Master 20 points: High Elf Lord only. Must ride a dragon. As long as the rider is alive, both rider and mount are immune to panic. Any dragon ridden by this character may use his rider's LD for the rest of the battle if his rider is slain, and need not test on the Monster Reaction chart.

Citadel Guardian 25 points: The army must have at least one unit of spears for each Citadel guardian. One unit of spears in the army gain +1WS and may carry a magic banner up to 50 points (this unit counts as the First among Equals, so only a single unit of spears may take a 50 point banner; taking multiple Citadel guardians does not allow multiple units of spears to have a 50 point banner). In addition, any unit of spears accompanied by this character is immune to panic as long as he remains in the regiment.

Scholar of the White Tower 15 points. Mage or Archmage only. This mage may nominate any spell up to his magic level as the default spell. For example, if the mage is L3 and is using high magic, he/she may choose either shield of saphery, curse of arrow attraction or fury of khaine as the default spell.

This is a bad idea. basically there are 2 problems: 1) it means i get commandment of brass on every wizard against dwarves, 2) my level 4 is guaranteed to get beast cowers.

Magus of Truth 30 points: Archmage only. Must use high magic. Any unit targeted by a spell cast by a character with this honour must reveal any and all magical items, daemonic gifts, hidden characters, etc in the unit. The archmage may choose to swap drain magic for the following spell:

BANISHMENT 11+: Only affects Daemonic and Undead units. May be cast on any enemy unit within 12". Unit suffers 2d6 wounds with no armour or regeneration ward allowed (normal and daemonic wards may be used).

Any archmage with the Banishment spell inflicts an automatic wound in each player's magic phase on all Daemonic/Undead model in base contact. Armour and regeneration saves may not be used against these wounds.

overally the honours are ok but they are a bit meh. no real problems, but nothing overly special and they don't realy affect army composition, which would be nice (if only a little)

CORE

Archers

Special Rules: Valour of Ages, Morvael's Legacy
Stats: as is
Equipment: Longbow, light armour
Cost 10
Command: 5/10/5

Spears

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, First among equals
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 9
Command: 8/8/4

why is an archer champion more than a spear champ?


Sea Guard

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment: Spear, bow, light armour, shield
Cost: 13
Command: 10/10/5. Any unit of Sea Guard may carry a magic standard up to 25 points.

SPECIAL

Silver Helms

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Undoubted Mettle, Valour of Ages
Stats: WS5, otherwise as is
Equipment: Lance, heavy armour, shield. Rides elven steed.
Options: May choose to have barding at no cost.
Cost: 24
Command: 14/14/7. Any unit may have a magic banner up to 25 points. Champion may have a magic item up to 25 points.

NEW RULE--Undaunted Mettle: A unit with this rule may re-roll all psychology tests.

Ellyrian Reavers

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Fast Cavalry
Stats: WS5, otherwise as is
Equipment: as is
Options: as is
Cost: 17
Command: 14/14/7. Champion has 2A instead of BS5. Any unit may purchase a magic banner up to 25 points. Champion may have magic items up to 25 points.

why can fast cav have a magic banner? i also note i have the opportunity to have a banner, warbanner, bsb battle banner that all follow the fast cav rules.(oh and the champion can have a 2+ save...

Dragon Princes

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Reckless Valour, Valour of Ages, Dragon Armour
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 33
Command:18/18/9. Any unit may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Drake master may carry up to 25 points worth of magic items

NEW RULE: Reckless Valour: Any unit subject to this rule is immune to psychology when declaring their first charge

now what you've done is give us 2 useless cav units instead of just 1. i know DP aren't popular at the moment, but your fix is to make them worse and Silver helms still rubbish?

Sword Masters

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 14/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Bladelord may have up to 35 points worth of magic items.

why does a bladelord get more magic items points than other champions?

White Lions

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, woodsmen, stubborn, lion cloak
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 12/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Guardian may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.

Phoenix Guard

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Cause Fear, 4+ ward save.
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 12/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Keeper of the Flame may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.


Shadow Warriors

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Nagarythe Hatred, Scout, Skirmish
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 14
Command: Shadow Walker +12.

Tiranoc Chariot

Special Rules: Chariot, Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: WS5, Otherwise as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 85

Lion Chariot of Chrace

Special Rules: Chariot, Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Cause Fear
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 140

RARE

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Volley
Stats: as is
Equipment: hand weapon, light armour
Cost: 100

Great Eagle

Special Rules: Fly
Stats: as s
Equipment: as is
Cost: as is

Lord of the Eagles:

M WS BS S T W I A LD
2 5 0 5 4 4 4 3 9

Special Rules: Fly, Cause Fear, Lord of the Eagles
equipment: talons (hand weapon)
Cost: 90
Slot: 1 rare

NEW RULE: Lord of the Eagles: Any great eagles in the army may use its LD. Despite having 4W, eagle lords are such adept flyers that they do not count as large targets. Additionally, due to dwelling in magic-saturated mountains and forests, an eagle lord has MR:1.

However, eagle lords are rare and reclusive, and will aid the elves in battle only in times of massive war and upheaval. A high elf army may only have 1 Eagle lord for every lord choice taken in the army. For example, if you have 1 High Elf Lord and 1 Archmage, you can have 2 Eagle Lords.


CHARACTERs

Lords

High Elf Lord:

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May not use high magic.
Stats: as is
Equipment Options: As is, except Great Weapon now costs 15 points
Mount options: As is, except Star Dragons now take both a hero and two rare slots. Also, riding in a chariot counts as a special slot, the character replaces the crew.
Cost: 175

Archmage:

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 3 wizard. May upgrade to L4 for +35 points
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is
Mount options: as is
Cost: 225

Heroes

Noble

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is, except cost of great weapon increased to 10
Mount options: as is, except riding in a chariot counts as a special slot, the character replaces the crew.
Cost: 85

Dragon Mage

M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 4 4 3 2 5 2 8

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Reckless, Warrior Mage
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May upgrade to L2 for +35. Always uses fire magic.
Stats: as is
Equipment: As per Noble, but may not purchase any armour, magical or otherwise
Rides: Sun Dragon.
Cost: 350

Warrior-mage

M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 5 4 3 2 6 3 8

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Warrior Mage
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May upgrade to L2 for +35.
Equipment Options: As Noble, but may not purchase any armour, magical or otherwise. May not be the BSB.
Mount options: as noble
Cost: 125pts

Mage

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 1 wizard. May upgrade to L2 for +35 points
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is
Mount options: as is
Cost: 100


Magic Items:

Common items:

Sword of Striking 10 points
Sword of Battle 15 Points
Sword of Might 15 points
Biting Blade 5 points
Talisman of Protection 5 points
Enchanted Shield 10 points
Staff of Sorcery 40 points
Power Stone: 20 points
Dispel Scroll: 25 points
War Banner 20 points

MAGIC WEAPONS

Sword of Twilight 80 points: wielder gains +1 to hit, +1S and +2A

Bow of the Seafarer 60 points. Treat as a normal longbow except that all hits from this weapon are resolved as if it were a single shot from a bolt thrower.

ok so now this isnt a magical attack

Sword of Hoeth 55 points: This sword adds +2S to the wielder's attacks. In addition, any unsaved wounding hit is multiplied to d6 wounds against any daemonic or undead foes, chaos spawn or any foe with a chaos mark.

Star Lance 40 points. Counts as a lance. Grants +3S on the charge, and allows no armour saves when charging.

Reaver Bow 40 points: Counts as a normal longbow, except it can be fired 3 times in the shooting phase. All hits from this bow are resolved at S5.

again, not magical

Blade of Sea Gold 40 points. No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused by this weapon.

The White Sword 35 points. Sword Master/Bladelord only. Two handed weapon which grants +2S as if it were a great weapon. Additionally, it confers +1A.

errr... WHAT. a 4 attack champion? WHAT

The Singing Glaive 30 points. Counts as a Halberd. All attacks from this weapon count as armour piercing. In addition, all enemy models in base contact have their WS halved, rounding up.

Spear of Crashing Waves 25 points. Counts as a spear. May re-roll to hit and wound when charging.

Daggers of Nagarythe 10 points. Shadow Walker (honour) only. Counts as two hand weapons. Attacks made by these daggers are Armour Piercing.

MAGIC ARMOUR

Aegis Unyielding 40 points. Counts as heavy armour which can be combined with other equipment normally. Grants the wearer a 4+ ward save.

Golden Shield 30 points. counts as a shield and can be combined with other equipment normally. Attempts to hit the bearer in combat must be re-rolled.

need the word "succesful" in here at the minute

Armour of Stars 30 points. A unit champion may never wear this armour. Otherwise as in current book.

Armour of Caledor 25 points. Counts as dragon armour.Grants a 2+ AS which cannot be improved.

Helm of Fortune 25 points. Adds +1 to the armour save of the wearer, and can be combined with other equipment normally. The wearer may re-roll failed armour saves.

Dragonscale Shield 20 points. Counts as a shield, and confers a 4+AS which can be combined with other equipment normally.

this now dominates the AoC since buying it + dragon armour gives the same effect, for 4 points more, but allows for combination with a horse (0+ save) and only costs 20 magic items points.

Dragonspine Greaves 15 points. Adds +1 to the wearer's armour save and can be combined with all other equipment normally. In addition, all melee attacks by the wearer count as flaming and magical in addition to their other effects.

Mask of the Merlord 10 points. Adds +1 to the armour save and can be combined with other equipment normally. In addition the wearer may move through aquatic terrain without penalty.

TALISMANS

Vambraces of the Ancients 55 points. Gives the wearer a 4+ ward save. In addition, the wearer may re-roll failed armour saves.

Pendant of Cynath 50 points. The Character gains a 4+ ward save. In addition, the pendant may be used to protect members of his unit. Once per turn, the character may extend the pendant's protection to one other member of the unit, giving them a 4+ ward save against one wounding hit (before rolling for number of wounds, if a multi-wound weapon). If the save is failed, the bearer of the pendant takes the wound rather than the original target.


the only reason ever to take this is on a hero who buddies a level 4. but for the same cost i could get a unit to sit infront of the level 4.


Talisman of Saphery 35 points. Magic weapons carried by enemy models lose all their special rules and count as mundane weapons of that type as long as they remain in base contact with the bearer of this item.

Circlet of Lileath 35 points. The wearer is immune to killing blow and can never take multiple wounds from a wounding hit. In addition, the wearer may re-roll all look out sir rolls and Initiative tests.

Sacred Incense 30 points. All shooting directed at the bearer and any unit he is with is at -1.

Guardian Phoenix 25 points. 5+ ward save.

Amulet of Fire 20 points. MR:1, bearer is immune to flaming attacks of any kind.

ARCANE ITEMS

Book of Hoeth 100 points. With the exception of snakeyes, all doubles rolled successfully casting spells causes IF.

Vortex Shard 75 points. One use only. May be activated in the magic phase of either player. When activated, the magic phase automatically ends, all RIP spells are dispelled and all dice stored in items is lost.

Starwood Staff 50 points. The bearer of this staff adds +1 to all his casting rolls, and -1 is deducted from all attempts to dispel spells cast by the bearer.

Sigil of Asuryan 50 points. One use only. Works like a dispel scroll, but in addition, on a roll of 2+, the caster may not cast that spell again for the duration of the battle.
on a 2+, thats a bit too good since it can be used on the nasty spells from a vamp count

Scepter of True Force 40 points. Magus of Truth only. Enemy models may not take ward saves against spells cast by the wielder.

Seer Stone of Saphery 30 points. Bearer may choose his spells instead of rolling for them.

Trickster's Pendant 30 points. whenever an enemy wizard miscasts, your opponent must roll twice on the miscast chart, and you pick which of the two results will apply.

Ring of Corin 20 points. One use only. Casts Vaul's unmaking on PL4.

Staff of Solidity 20 points. The bearer does not roll on the miscast chart after his first miscast. Note that the spell still fails.

Elemental Glyph 15 points. One use only. At the beginning of the game, choose a spell costing no more than 6+ from whichever basic lore the mage is using ( high magic may not be used with the elemental glyph). This item may cast that spell at its basic cost. In addition, melee attacks by the character will count as magical until your next magic phase.
commandment of brass is probably the best option here. or you can use it to sneak through flaming sword/steed of shadows on your level 1 prince.
Jewel of The Dusk 15 points. The bearer gains +1PD in each of his magic phases.

Mask of the Annulli 10 points. At the beginning of the game, the bearer nominates a single unridden great eagle. The bearer may use the LOS of the Great Eagle for any spells he casts. Note that the range of the spells are still measured from the Mage.

no. that is a bad idea. 1) archmage can have this and another item. 2) you will have lots of eagles 3) it allows your level 4 to hide and cast from silly los. think about it, the FF only extends los by 6" and costs 25 points. this should be more points.

Silver Wand. 10 points. The bearer knows an additional spell.

ENCHANTED ITEMS

Null Stone 100 points. No wizard within 6" of the bearer may cast any spells. No spells will affect the bearer, his mount or any unit within 6". No other magic or rune item within 6" will work; treat as a normal weapon, banner, etc. Note that this applies to friendly units/items/spells as well as the enemy.

Folariath's Robe. 45 points. May only be given to a character on foot. The wearer may not be harmed or affected in any way by mundane close combat or shooting attacks. However, he may not attack or fire a missile weapon, though he may cast spells as normal. Additionally, the wearer may move through all but impassable terrain with no movement penalty.

Radiant Gem of Hoeth 40 points: Prince or noble only. Character becomes a L1 mage, or if already L1, a L2 Mage. Additionally, the bearer now has access to high magic.

Vial of Isha 40 points. One use only. The character with this item or any character in base contact may drink this potion at the start of any phase of either players turn. It immediately restores the all wounds lost by the character during the battle so far. This item can also be used to restore the wounds of the characters mount, but may not heal more than 3 wounds maximum. Dead characters may not be revived by this item.

Annulian Crystal 40 points. In each enemy magic phase, remove a PD from his basic pool and add it to your dispel pool.
this should still be arcane.

Ring of Fury 40 points. May be used to cast Fury of Khaine on PL4 once per magic phase.

Cloak of the Aesanar 35 points. Shadow walker (Honour) only. Character and the unit he is with can't be targeted by shooting or spells that need LOS from more than 12" away. In addition, Dark Elves Fear the wearer of this cloak.

Dragonhorn 25 points. One use only. May be used at the beginning of any of your turns. Until your next turn, all friendly high elf units may re-roll all psychology tests.

Bracers of the Golden Eaves 20 points. May only be given to a character on foot. If the character is using a mundane longbow, the range of his bow is increased to 48"; gains +1S; and may be fired twice. Note that shots fired from a magic bow are unnaffected by this item.

Runestone of Vaul 15 points. All close combat attacks made by the bearer gain AP, in addition to their other properties. If already AP, this does not stack.
5 s6 armour piercing killing blow attacks you say?

Amulet of Light 15 points. Attacks by the bearer and any unit he is with count as magical.

Gem of Calaer 10 points. One use only. The bearer (and the unit he is with) may take one LD test on 3d6 and choose the lowest two.

Talisman of Loec 10 points. One use only. May be activated at the beginning of a combat phase in either players turn. In that phase only, the bearer of this item may re-roll to hit and wound, and enemies must re-roll all successful saves of any knid against attacks made by the bearer. However, at the end of the turn, the bearer takes an automatic wound with no save of any kind allowed

MAGIC BANNERS

Standard of Ulthuan Undying 90 points. Adds +D6 CR to any close combat the bearer (and his unit) is involved in.

Banner of the World Dragon 60 points. The bearer and any unit he is with are completely immune to any and all spell affects.

Banner of Saphery 50 points. Adds +D3 power dice to your main pile in each of your magic phases.

Standard of Balance 45 points. The bearer, the unit he is with and all models in combat, friend or foe, are immune to psychology. In addition, all of these models lose hatred and frenzy if they have it, and can never gain it back as long as they are in base contact with the bearer or his unit.

Emblem of the House Guard 35 points: Spears or BSB only. All successful armour saves against wounds caused by this unit must be re-rolled. Note that a character in the unit does not gain this bonus unless he is a Citadel Guardian, even if he is the BSB, and his unit does not gain these benefits unless it is a regiment of spears.

Sea Drake Oriflamme 25 points: Spears, Sea Guard or BSB only. The unit may re-roll to wound against all foes US4+ or who have 4 wounds or greater. Note that a character in the unit does not gain the bonus unless he is a Sea Farer, even if he is the BSB, and his unit may not gain this benefit unless it is a Spear or Sea Guard regiment.

Standard of Brilliance 25 points: One use only. May be activated at the start of either player's turn. Until the beginning of that player's next turn, all enemies attempting to fire at the unit or attack it in close combat have their WS/BS halved, rounding down.
does this stack with the other ws halved thing? ie can i quarter my opponents WS?
Banner of Arcane Protection 25 points. Grants the unit bearing it MR2.

Lion Standard 25 points. The bearer and any unit he is with is immune to fear and terror.

Pennant of Ielthan 25 points. Sea Guard only. All missile weapons in the unit except magic bows count as magical, flaming and armour piercing.

Banner of Ellyrion 15 points. The bearer and any unit he is with may pass through all but impassable terrain with no penalty. May not be given to a BSB mounted in a chariot.
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

#4 Post by Gondarion »

You really need to read up on basic rules. I also don't know where you're getting your information.

There is nothing stating a magic item can explicitly be made to have non-magic attacks. The wording on things like the longbow proviso is simply make sure its clear how it works.
geoguswrek wrote: Nothing should stop incantations going off. the whole point of incantations is they are reliable. this is a problem with the spell. otherwise its fine.
Why should Tomb Kings be immune to any attempts to stop their spell casting from going off? I'll agree the TK army could use some help in certain areas, but they're really good here still. Its not just that the spell goes off automatically, its also that its any of the spells with no miscast potential.
This is a bad idea. basically there are 2 problems: 1) it means i get commandment of brass on every wizard against dwarves, 2) my level 4 is guaranteed to get beast cowers.
Umm, why is that bad? If one pays points for something, one should get a benefit. In general, this is simply a way to compensate for the loss of the seer honour, and its not nearly as good for half the cost.
they don't realy affect army composition, which would be nice (if only a little)
I guess we have different notions here, I really disl;ike the idea of paying points to affect army composition.

why is an archer champion more than a spear champ?
He's not, the banner is though. Hmm...
.
why can fast cav have a magic banner? i also note i have the opportunity to have a banner, warbanner, bsb battle banner that all follow the fast cav rules.(oh and the champion can have a 2+ save...
The idea was for the WS5+full command+25 points of items to make reavers more unique among elven fast cavalry. As to this combo, Whats wrong with that? Its like any other tradeoff, with the better mobility comes greater vulnerability. And what does the champion have to do with it?
now what you've done is give us 2 useless cav units instead of just 1. i know DP aren't popular at the moment, but your fix is to make them worse and Silver helms still rubbish?
Are you serious? Dragon princes are and have consistently been our most effective and popular unit point for point, I've yet to see an army list in ages which didn't have 1-2 of them at least.
why does a bladelord get more magic items points than other champions?
I thought it was a cool background reference, what with bladelords carrying items for nobles of Saphery and such. I also thought swordmasters could use access to some of those items.

As for the 4A, there are plenty of other unit champions with 4A.

need the word "succesful" in here at the minute
You're right there, I'll add that.
this now dominates the AoC since buying it + dragon armour gives the same effect, for 4 points more, but allows for combination with a horse (0+ save) and only costs 20 magic items points.
not necessarily, its till good to use the AoC on foot with a great weapon os some such. its basically two different versions, a bit redundant I admit, but far less so than now.

the only reason ever to take this is on a hero who buddies a level 4. but for the same cost i could get a unit to sit infront of the level 4.
The protection ability is an add-on, ultimately you're only paying about 5 points for it considering a 4+ward is 45 or so anyways.
commandment of brass is probably the best option here. or you can use it to sneak through flaming sword/steed of shadows on your level 1 prince.
There are a ton of cool options here, I've gone through it a bit, its one of my favorite of my made up items.
no. that is a bad idea. 1) archmage can have this and another item. 2) you will have lots of eagles 3) it allows your level 4 to hide and cast from silly los. think about it, the FF only extends los by 6" and costs 25 points. this should be more points.
The fact that it cannot possibly increase range is a big factor here. The Focus Familiar is much better for coordinating spells because it can add range as well as LOS
5 s6 armour piercing killing blow attacks you say?
What of it? There are a ton more scary combos out there for lords.
does this stack with the other ws halved thing? ie can i quarter my opponents WS?
Umm...hadn't thought of that, nice check. I'll look at that.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

#5 Post by geoguswrek »

gondarion wrote: You really need to read up on basic rules. I also don't know where you're getting your information.

There is nothing stating a magic item can explicitly be made to have non-magic attacks. The wording on things like the longbow proviso is simply make sure its clear how it works.
i'm simply comparing precedent. it is very similarly worded to the DE lifetaker, which GW has ruled is non-magical hits. THus the way the bows are now would be non magical.
gondarion wrote:Why should Tomb Kings be immune to any attempts to stop their spell casting from going off? I'll agree the TK army could use some help in certain areas, but they're really good here still. Its not just that the spell goes off automatically, its also that its any of the spells with no miscast potential.
the whole point of TK incantations in the fluff is that they are calling upon an intrinsic link between the undead troops and the casters. it doesn't use the winds of magic per se, and so shouldn't be so affected by drain magic. They were designed to be a reliable magic phase and, lets be honest the chance to give -6 to cast on them would make beating TK way to easy (remember this means the king/prince will hardly get a single spell off)
gondarion wrote:Umm, why is that bad? If one pays points for something, one should get a benefit. In general, this is simply a way to compensate for the loss of the seer honour, and its not nearly as good for half the cost.
the problem is that 15 points is very little for an honour which, for an archmage gives a lot of reliability. other than shadow lore, most of the spells you really want to be sure of getting are in the bottom 4. it means you pay 15 points and practically get seer if you are taking death/fire.
on a level 2 15 points is fine, its just that its too good on an archmage.
gondarion wrote:The idea was for the WS5+full command+25 points of items to make reavers more unique among elven fast cavalry. As to this combo, Whats wrong with that? Its like any other tradeoff, with the better mobility comes greater vulnerability. And what does the champion have to do with it?
i know they can get shot easily, that is the main problem with them but other than that they don't really have great vulnerability. they hit hard enough to prevent attacks back on the flank charge and they'll break most hard units when they do get in (and remember, preventing the flank charge by fast cav is a very difficult thing to do). THe champion allows us to challenge if charged by an enemy character and reduce the wounds caused against us.meaning that, with +1+d6 cr, we break the character.
gondarion wrote:Are you serious? Dragon princes are and have consistently been our most effective and popular unit point for point, I've yet to see an army list in ages which didn't have 1-2 of them at least.
by unpopular i meant unpopular with non HE players. In other words everyone complains because there isn't a HE army without at least 1 unit. in your list they are worse than they were and still not really make silvers a viable option. (ie they are still a special choice)
gondarion wrote:I thought it was a cool background reference, what with bladelords carrying items for nobles of Saphery and such. I also thought swordmasters could use access to some of those items.

As for the 4A, there are plenty of other unit champions with 4A.
I like the background reference now you mention it. but i didnt think the magic items creation was part of the white tower? I agree SM could use the extra access and i haven't had a chance to look at the list and see if there is any wrong combo's available.

As to 4 attacks, i don't like the idea that the champion has more attacks than the combat guy in the unit.

On the dragonscale shield: i can see what you were after and i can definitely see both getting taken. Are you worried about the shield on a DP champ? (ie i have one champ with HoF and one with the shield, so 1 has a 1+ save rerolling and the other has a 0+ save, so both can take on characters and only take a couple of wounds)

A 4+ ward isn't 45 anymore. for example the DE pendant is better than a 4+ ward and only costs 35. and for combat chars you can take the aegis unyielding which is cheaper (by 10 points)
gondarion wrote:
The fact that it cannot possibly increase range is a big factor here. The Focus Familiar is much better for coordinating spells because it can add range as well as LOS

but this item increases LOS practically infinitely, so spells that only require LOS become amazing, and it allows you to live with the AM hidden and still get spells off. I reckon it'll go the same way as the FF: loads of flying level 4's around. except we can have an extra item (elemental glyph/silver wand maybe)
gondarion wrote:What of it? There are a ton more scary combos out there for lords.
ok 5 s6 killing blow attacks where i get to reroll to hit to wound and you have to reroll armour and ward saves. that sound pretty scary. and probably quite a lot cheaper than the chaos lord you will kill in one round.

I like the idea of a nagarythe prince, elemental glyph (for a double casting of steed of shadows), talisman of loec, sword of hoeth, dragonscale shield. Thats a 2+ save with 4 s6 attacks who can go kill a keeper/GUO/chaos dragon in a single turn. Its not broken, but it would be fun.
obviously the VC players won't like it since it will kill anything they have in a single turn too.
Another fun one is scouting warrior mage with the mask of anulli who takes lore of life. that is a little bit wrong. (march blocking + half movement in the first turn) but it is quite expensive so its probably ok too.

The main thing i'm begining to become worried about is the possiblity of an overwhelming magic phase.
you could take a level 4, 2 level 2's and a warrior mage, between them with the elemental glyph, ring of corin, ring of fury, seerstone, vortex shard (if you really feel like it), mask of anulli and silver wand. it would set you back a bit, but thats not that bad to be honest.,
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

#6 Post by Gondarion »

geoguswrek wrote:
i'm simply comparing precedent. it is very similarly worded to the DE lifetaker, which GW has ruled is non-magical hits. THus the way the bows are now would be non magical.
Wow, okay that I wasn't aware of that. That is officialy the most idiotic ruling they've ever made, especially considering it explicitly violates their own rules.
gondarion wrote:They were designed to be a reliable magic phase and, lets be honest the chance to give -6 to cast on them would make beating TK way to easy (remember this means the king/prince will hardly get a single spell off)
I disagree that drain magic shouldn't affect them in any way, whatever the fluff says its still magic in that it takes place in the magic phase. however, I think you have a point about this hitting them too hard, too easily. perhaps they're affect, but the spells still always went off on PL3 at worst?
gondarion wrote: the problem is that 15 points is very little for an honour which, for an archmage gives a lot of reliability. other than shadow lore, most of the spells you really want to be sure of getting are in the bottom 4. it means you pay 15 points and practically get seer if you are taking death/fire.
on a level 2 15 points is fine, its just that its too good on an archmage.
I don't see this, personally. The only spells in this category which aren't already default are Beast Cowers and Commandment of Brass (the former is just too good for the cost, the latter too essential for high elves). Steal soul and Dazzling brightness can also be good here of course, but a silver wand already gives the archmage 5/6 spells, and in some of my practice lists I still buy the wand even with the honour, because with an archmage you do want the highest level spells. As for the mage, none of the really good mid-level spells are granted by this honour. Your point about fire/death simply means you can guarantee you get a couple magic missiles if you want, but that isn't all that great; if I field a high elf archmage, I'm going to want top-shelf spells. These rules are no different from the current list in that high elf magic is not in any way a spamming phase, its still about quality of magic more than quantity.
gondarion wrote: i know they can get shot easily, that is the main problem with them but other than that they don't really have great vulnerability.


Its a hell of a vulnerability for a unit that will cost upwards of 400 points, and where even the BSB would be fairly vulnerability to sniping. Furthermore, if the character that could be broken/crumbled by CR is all that big a deal, a champion with a 2+AS isn't going to provide much resistance.
gondarion wrote:A
by unpopular i meant unpopular with non HE players. In other words everyone complains because there isn't a HE army without at least 1 unit. in your list they are worse than they were and still not really make silvers a viable option. (ie they are still a special choice)
I think silvers are a viable option in this list as a flanker/support unit eliminator. 9 point difference in base cost, couple with higher M if you wish and very nice psychological resistance make a very nice small cavalry support. I still don't think putting them back into Core is at all tenable.
As to 4 attacks, i don't like the idea that the champion has more attacks than the combat guy in the unit.
Thats only if you give the white sword to the champion instead of the combat guy, which I think isn't a very good idea anyway (remember, KB is conferred by the honour, not the weapon).
Are you worried about the shield on a DP champ? (ie i have one champ with HoF and one with the shield, so 1 has a 1+ save rerolling and the other has a 0+ save, so both can take on characters and only take a couple of wounds)
Hmm, its a very good combination, but the model costs a total of 71 points, and is a one trick pony in that any of the many AS-ignoring things will kill the guy. Something one should definitely look out for in testing.
A 4+ ward isn't 45 anymore. for example the DE pendant is better than a 4+ ward and only costs 35. and for combat chars you can take the aegis unyielding which is cheaper (by 10 points)
The pendant is just another one of GW's colossal isolated mistakes, it isn't a new standard for ward saves I don't think. As to the Aegis, it has the real weakness of not counting as dragon armour, so suddenly you'll have to worry about all that metal magic, daemonic fire weapons, etc.
but this item increases LOS practically infinitely
It doesn't do that, it simply gives an extra pair of eyes, things can be out of sight of both the mage and the eagle, especially if you're keeping the mage hidden in a wood. Also consider that the nominated eagle can be easily killed.

[quote="gondarion"
ok 5 s6 killing blow attacks where i get to reroll to hit to wound and you have to reroll armour and ward saves. that sound pretty scary. and probably quite a lot cheaper than the chaos lord you will kill in one round. [/quote]

its no different than now really except the +1A. Also, you can't have the talisman and the runestone both, the chaos lord has to come to you and could have the crimson armour anyway, etc.
Possiblity of an overwhelming magic phase.
you could take a level 4, 2 level 2's and a warrior mage, between them with the elemental glyph, ring of corin, ring of fury, seerstone, vortex shard (if you really feel like it), mask of anulli and silver wand. it would set you back a bit, but thats not that bad to be honest.
It is true that I consciously powered up our magic a bit, and I'd be curious to see how this list would do either against some of the newer lists with their outrageous anti-magic, or against any of amended rules. it would also be worth it to see how older armies could deal with it. I'm semi-confident the outrageous cost and relative paucity of bound items will keep it in line.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

#7 Post by geoguswrek »

Gondarion wrote:
geoguswrek wrote:
i'm simply comparing precedent. it is very similarly worded to the DE lifetaker, which GW has ruled is non-magical hits. THus the way the bows are now would be non magical.
Wow, okay that I wasn't aware of that. That is officialy the most idiotic ruling they've ever made, especially considering it explicitly violates their own rules.

not disagreeing, but that is what they have said.
gondarion wrote:They were designed to be a reliable magic phase and, lets be honest the chance to give -6 to cast on them would make beating TK way to easy (remember this means the king/prince will hardly get a single spell off)
I disagree that drain magic shouldn't affect them in any way, whatever the fluff says its still magic in that it takes place in the magic phase. however, I think you have a point about this hitting them too hard, too easily. perhaps they're affect, but the spells still always went off on PL3 at worst?

just put it at pl1 at worst then at least you are forced to waste a dispel die to stop things.
gondarion wrote: the problem is that 15 points is very little for an honour which, for an archmage gives a lot of reliability. other than shadow lore, most of the spells you really want to be sure of getting are in the bottom 4. it means you pay 15 points and practically get seer if you are taking death/fire.
on a level 2 15 points is fine, its just that its too good on an archmage.
I don't see this, personally. The only spells in this category which aren't already default are Beast Cowers and Commandment of Brass (the former is just too good for the cost, the latter too essential for high elves). Steal soul and Dazzling brightness can also be good here of course, but a silver wand already gives the archmage 5/6 spells, and in some of my practice lists I still buy the wand even with the honour, because with an archmage you do want the highest level spells. As for the mage, none of the really good mid-level spells are granted by this honour. Your point about fire/death simply means you can guarantee you get a couple magic missiles if you want, but that isn't all that great; if I field a high elf archmage, I'm going to want top-shelf spells. These rules are no different from the current list in that high elf magic is not in any way a spamming phase, its still about quality of magic more than quantity.
It is true that you can't get the really good spells, but you can get a relatively reliable magic phase. i'm not saying the item is too good, just a little too cheap (for an archmage) maybe have a tiered costing:15 for mage/20 for archmages, as it is an honour.
gondarion wrote: i know they can get shot easily, that is the main problem with them but other than that they don't really have great vulnerability.


Its a hell of a vulnerability for a unit that will cost upwards of 400 points, and where even the BSB would be fairly vulnerability to sniping. Furthermore, if the character that could be broken/crumbled by CR is all that big a deal, a champion with a 2+AS isn't going to provide much resistance.
True, i was just looking at a possibly dodgy combo. also note that against combat armies you would put the bs in them, against shooty armies, the bsb goes somewhere else, and the reavers still need to be shot (5 with banner warbanner will break shooters)
gondarion wrote:A
by unpopular i meant unpopular with non HE players. In other words everyone complains because there isn't a HE army without at least 1 unit. in your list they are worse than they were and still not really make silvers a viable option. (ie they are still a special choice)
I think silvers are a viable option in this list as a flanker/support unit eliminator. 9 point difference in base cost, couple with higher M if you wish and very nice psychological resistance make a very nice small cavalry support. I still don't think putting them back into Core is at all tenable.

i can't disagree with you about not putting them as a core choice. the problem is that silverhelms weren't taken because they weren't worth the cost, now they are a point more expensive? and will only get taken because dragon princes are less worth the points. this isn't really a solution. (unless you want people to be unable to take cav heavy armies)
As to 4 attacks, i don't like the idea that the champion has more attacks than the combat guy in the unit.
Thats only if you give the white sword to the champion instead of the combat guy, which I think isn't a very good idea anyway (remember, KB is conferred by the honour, not the weapon).

what else would you give to the champion?
Are you worried about the shield on a DP champ? (ie i have one champ with HoF and one with the shield, so 1 has a 1+ save rerolling and the other has a 0+ save, so both can take on characters and only take a couple of wounds)
Hmm, its a very good combination, but the model costs a total of 71 points, and is a one trick pony in that any of the many AS-ignoring things will kill the guy. Something one should definitely look out for in testing.

thats all i'm trying to do :D. there aren't that many armour save ignoring things really: killing blow, a few characters.
A 4+ ward isn't 45 anymore. for example the DE pendant is better than a 4+ ward and only costs 35. and for combat chars you can take the aegis unyielding which is cheaper (by 10 points)
The pendant is just another one of GW's colossal isolated mistakes, it isn't a new standard for ward saves I don't think. As to the Aegis, it has the real weakness of not counting as dragon armour, so suddenly you'll have to worry about all that metal magic, daemonic fire weapons, etc.

only being heavy armour isn't a weakness really. not when its on a character who can be in a unit of dragon princes.
but this item increases LOS practically infinitely
It doesn't do that, it simply gives an extra pair of eyes, things can be out of sight of both the mage and the eagle, especially if you're keeping the mage hidden in a wood. Also consider that the nominated eagle can be easily killed.

true, but it only really matters in the early turns, before you cut down the enemy shooting.

[quote="gondarion"
ok 5 s6 killing blow attacks where i get to reroll to hit to wound and you have to reroll armour and ward saves. that sound pretty scary. and probably quite a lot cheaper than the chaos lord you will kill in one round.
its no different than now really except the +1A. Also, you can't have the talisman and the runestone both, the chaos lord has to come to you and could have the crimson armour anyway, etc.
Possiblity of an overwhelming magic phase.
you could take a level 4, 2 level 2's and a warrior mage, between them with the elemental glyph, ring of corin, ring of fury, seerstone, vortex shard (if you really feel like it), mask of anulli and silver wand. it would set you back a bit, but thats not that bad to be honest.
It is true that I consciously powered up our magic a bit, and I'd be curious to see how this list would do either against some of the newer lists with their outrageous anti-magic, or against any of amended rules. it would also be worth it to see how older armies could deal with it. I'm semi-confident the outrageous cost and relative paucity of bound items will keep it in line.[/quote][/u]
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

#8 Post by Gondarion »

geoguswrek wrote:the problem is that silverhelms weren't taken because they weren't worth the cost, now they are a point more expensive?
Have you noticed the handful of tweaks though? Obviously, there is the new rule giving them re-rolls of all psychology tests, which makes them reliable for specific missions. Consider also that not only have they gained WS5, better command options (also cheaper by 5 points total), but most importantly barding is optional so they can be zipping along at M9, making them somewhat distinct from dragon princes. As for the latter, I've upped their cost by 3 each 9though command is lowered as with helms) but they're a bit too cheap now, and I did give them a nice rule to prevent them from failing charges due to psychology. I don't see how either of these units is useless.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

#9 Post by geoguswrek »

not useless, but expensive compared to what else one could get.
consider grail knights, they are 2 attacks at s6. cold one knights have only one attack but have hatred, empire knights have 1+ saves and CK, while expensive have a 1+ save. lets not even mention blood knights.
The tweaks on silvers aren't really gonna make me take them instead of DP. the rerolling psych isn't that big a deal on ld9 (only a +9% chance of passing). also the barding is optional, but at no points cost so if i want m9 i only have a 3+ save, which makes me susceptible to lots of shooting.
THe dp rule is nice in a way but doesn't do anything about either of their real key weaknesses: problems when the don't break the enemy, and an inability to deal with 1+/2+ saves.
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
User avatar
Marinero
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:02 pm

#10 Post by Marinero »

Gondarion wrote:Atypical Core/Special/Rare allotment remains as is (maybe 3/6/3?)
NO! As long as spears, archers and LSG are the only core choices available to the HE, then the min core should be 2+.

Also, if you limit the rare to 3, then RBTs and eagles should ne 2-for-1
A battle standard bearer cannot provide its special re-roll bonus if it is entirely inside a wood or behind a large piece of terrain for example, any unit to which the Battle Standard cannot be seen by at least a single model cannot get the bonus (models which cannot see the BSB itself because of simple LOS blockage due to models are unaffected).
No.
HIGH MAGIC
Still not good enough. Default spell should be able to do magic. Also, any high elf mage should have drain magic, in the same way that a DE has their default spell regardless which lore they choose
Dragon Princes

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Reckless Valour, Valour of Ages, Dragon Armour
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 33
Command:18/18/9. Any unit may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Drake master may carry up to 25 points worth of magic items

NEW RULE: Reckless Valour: Any unit subject to this rule is immune to psychology when declaring their first charge
reckless is good, but why the increase in cost? HE are already terribly expensive as they are. Making one of the best choices more expensive, hardly counts as good 'balancing' work IMOI
High Elf Lord:

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May not use high magic.
Stats: as is
Equipment Options: As is, except Great Weapon now costs 15 points
Mount options: As is, except Star Dragons now take both a hero and two rare slots. Also, riding in a chariot counts as a special slot, the character replaces the crew.
Cost: 175
WTF??? Stardragon cost an extra hero and rare slot - good job :roll:

Every lord being a mage is also a very poor idea.

Great weapons costing more is also a stupid idea. Sorry.

Overall - no
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

#11 Post by Gondarion »

Marinero wrote:
WTF??? Stardragon cost an extra hero and rare slot - good job :roll:
Notice the amended rules link in my sig. Its a multi-list synergy project which explains alot of the stuff you highlighted.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
User avatar
Marinero
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:02 pm

#12 Post by Marinero »

You see Simeon, I am pretty happy with Warhammer. I like the way it develops, the changes, the tweaks and perks. I have a lot of respect for you, and as you know I really enjoy our discussions and arguments. So please bear in mind that what I will write is in no way meant to be disrespectful or abusive.

I like all aspects of the game - magic, close combat, shooting, maneuvre. I like cavalry. I like dragons.

I am pretty happy with the state of affairs. True, GW screws up here and there, most notably with the DoC. But overall, they do a really good job.

Your project would nerf WFB to a quasi 'balanced' infantry/cavalry/war machines chess type of a game.

The rock-paper-scisors asspect is really good. You know what makes Blizzard's 'Broodwar' games so good? That it is totally disbalanced, in a way that the decisions of the players what tactics/approach to take vs the same decisions the other player takes makes the game so good and dynamic. There are certain things that beat others 99% of the time. It is the choice that you make that decided if you win or lose.

Translated into warhammer it would mean that a gunline will tear appart a slow moving infantry army, but will suffer badly against cavalry or skirmishers armies.

A dragon will wreck havoc against non-shooty armies, but an army with 4 bolt-throwers or 2 cannons will bring it down quickly.

Magic will ruin an army that has no magic defence, or lacks mage hunters. Armies that are prepared can render you investment in magic useless.

However, you CANNOT have all this in one list. And this is what makes the game so good. If you want to coral all list to have some magic, some infantry, some cavalry, some war machined it will give you bland, boring and unsatisfying games.

I find it hard to understand why there is a group of people, who want to adapt the game to themselves, rather than adapting themselves to the game.

I.e one of my most 'favourite' mantras around this site is: 'the general consensus is that HE should be played as an infantry based army, that utilizes magic and cavalry as support to achieve combine arms, and that dragons should be left in Caledor as they are not very fluffy :roll:

Limited and egoistic assumption, and worst of all, hidden by the claim of a supposed 'general consensus'.

There is no such thing as general consensus, especially when High elf players are involved.

So, you can proceed with your revision plans, as you have outlined in the forum in the link of your signature, but if this is the direction that you will persevere, then the game that you will make will not be warhammer.

It will be one of the many other miniature tabletop games. Some people will like it, some will not. But were GW to adopt a general blandness and nerfness of the armies, similar to the early 6th edition approach, I for one would not enjoy the game.
User avatar
knightwire
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 6:36 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

#13 Post by knightwire »

No offense Marinero, but take it somewhere else. Your first post was at least relevant to Gondarion's topic here. He simply wants input on the alternate list he's created. That's really all. Lectures on why or why not he should waste his own time are actually not what he wants.

I know this because I have been in his place in other topics. If you don't agree with someone exploring changes and generally goofing around in their spare time with an alternate list... please just don't read the topic.

Okay Thanks then.
[color=#FF0000]8th edition[/color] [url=http://www.knightwire.com/gw/he/ahe_v3.pdf]ASF-less Asur[/url] Army List
User avatar
Marinero
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:02 pm

#14 Post by Marinero »

knightwire wrote:No offense Marinero, but take it somewhere else. Your first post was at least relevant to Gondarion's topic here. He simply wants input on the alternate list he's created. That's really all. Lectures on why or why not he should waste his own time are actually not what he wants.

I know this because I have been in his place in other topics. If you don't agree with someone exploring changes and generally goofing around in their spare time with an alternate list... please just don't read the topic.

Okay Thanks then.
No offense taken, mate. I have no intention of lecturing Gondarion, or anything of this kind.

I offered my honest opinion, and I thought that while the opinion may not be favourable to the project, honest critique is actually a good thing.

I mean, it is much more likely to make a good revised list when having a healthy mixture of positive/critical feedback, rathar than when having only positive, but I may have been wrong.
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

#15 Post by Gondarion »

I can't type much because my keyboard needs replacing, I'll answer this as quickly as possible.
Marinero wrote:You see Simeon, I am pretty happy with Warhammer. I like the way it develops, the changes, the tweaks and perks
A half year ago and I would agree. However, there aree two clear things making me very displeased with the direction of the game.
I am pretty happy with the state of affairs. True, GW screws up here and there, most notably with the DoC. But overall, they do a really good job.

The DoC book is indeed singular in its terrible design. However, before that two things began which are now apparent

1. Trying to fix the last book's problem in the next army list GW releases is no longer a bad habit, it is clearly their modus operandi.

2. GW has apparently mandated that the multiple big box sets are to be the basis of each army list, which has meant intentional undercosting and ludicrous availability

Combine these with the incomparable imbalance of DoC and the terrible fundamental mistakes in the VC list, along with a disinterest in a periodic patching system of some sort and I now see WHF headed for the abyss. I'm currently working on designing a completely new version from scratch for a reason.

I find it hard to understand why there is a group of people, who want to adapt the game to themselves, rather than adapting themselves to the game.
The game was made for the players not the players for the game. That is and should be the case with all systems.
So, you can proceed with your revision plans, as you have outlined in the forum in the link of your signature, but if this is the direction that you will persevere, then the game that you will make will not be warhammer.
marin, there is no objective "Warhammer". Its been very different at different points. Where it is now is not where I want it to be.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
User avatar
Maxwell123
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Haven't posted my amended rules in awhile (swing away)

#16 Post by Maxwell123 »

I'M BAAAAAAAACK!!! :twisted:

Hey Gondarion and Marinero!! Glad to see you two are still around and posting. It has been a while since I've posted here, but I have been visiting and viewing the site on occassion.

Interesting rules Gondarion...I'll offer my views on them shortly. The honours are pretty cool and most of them quite fluffy and suitable.

I'm not sure about the need for a Great Eagle lord however, or the need to have a Dragon mage + Warrior-mage + Regular mage. That's kinda overkill imo.

I will go into some more detail on this as soon as I get a chance. Its good to be back.
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

Re: Haven't posted my amended rules in awhile (swing away)

#17 Post by Gondarion »

Maxwell123 wrote:I'm not sure about the need for a Great Eagle lord however, or the need to have a Dragon mage + Warrior-mage + Regular mage. That's kinda overkill imo.
I understand your critique, and it is kind of awkward, but I really missed the idea of fielding warrior mages other than a 450 point model on a dragon. I'd be open to the idea of a single warrior mage entry with the option of riding a dragon, but that would require controversial rules changes to the dragon mage itself.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
User avatar
Maxwell123
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Australia

Re:

#18 Post by Maxwell123 »

Gondarion wrote:
UNIVERSAL RULES

A battle standard bearer cannot provide its special re-roll bonus if it is entirely inside a wood or behind a large piece of terrain for example, any unit to which the Battle Standard cannot be seen by at least a single model cannot get the bonus (models which cannot see the BSB itself because of simple LOS blockage due to models are unaffected).

Models armed with bows or longbows gain the following:

-May shoot in two ranks (3 if on a hill) if they have not moved this turn.

-If it says so, a unit may purchase flaming arrows for the specified amount. Flaming arrows count as flaming attacks. Note that they are move-and-fire.

SPECIAL RULES

Atypical Core/Special/Rare allotment remains as is (maybe 3/6/3?)

Unless stated otherwise, high elf mages provide +1 to all attempts to dispel.

The name "Speed of Asuryan" is gone (read further to see what happens with the rule)

Valour of Ages as is

Martial Prowess now reads:

-Always strikes first in combat

-May fight and fire in one additional rank with spears and bows, even if they have moved this turn. Such is the High Elves particular dexterity with the spear that attacks by any model on foot subject to this rule ignore the "Parry" HW+S bonus.
I've never been a fan of "Speed of Asuryan" as an army wide special rule. It makes sense for individual characters and some certain units (Swordmasters for example) due to their training, etc..but for a whole race? Just don't buy it. I also don't like it because it allows the entire army to ignore one of the basic concepts of the game - that you must get the charge to guarantee striking first.

First among equals only applies to Spears. Otherwise as is.

NEW RULE: Morvael's Legacy: Never suffers any to hit penalty for long range. A unit subject to this rule is never subject to Martial Prowess.

I don't like the name, but I understand your reason for wanting this rule for our archers. I'm kinda undecided on this one though

NEW RULE: Warrior Mage

-Does not provide +1 to dispel as with other high elf wizards, and cannot use high magic.

-Reckless now include both the old "Reckless" and "Warrior Mage" rules.
Otherwise as is.


HIGH MAGIC

Drain Magic 7+: Lasts until the beginning of the caster's next magic phase. All casting attempts of spells, bound spells and Incantations have -3 deducted from the casting roll/Power Level; These affects apply to friend and foe alike. Further uses of this spell are cumulative, so a second casting of drain magic in the same magic phase would impose -6 to all casting rolls, and so on. Note that this deduction is from the total roll, so it has no effect on IF or miscasts caused by double 6's or Double 1's (Note: uniquely, Skaven ARE affected by this, as their version of IF is a 13, so Drain Magic can either nullify or even grant an IF as a result). note also that if the total deduction is enough to make a bound spell/incantation go off on PL0 or less, it does not go off successfully, and it does not count as being used.

1. Shield of Saphery 5+: as is

2. Curse of Arrow Attraction 6+: as is

3. Fury of Khaine 8+: as is

4. Courage of Aenarion 8+: as is

5. Flames of the Phoenix 11+: as is

6. Vaul's Unmaking 12+: as is.

Archmages and Mages may have up to two arcane items each from Vauls' Forge. Note that Warrior Mages, Dragon mages and lords/nobles who are wizards do not have this ability; only archmages and mages.

I would support adding this as an alternative to adding additional abilities outside the magic allowance, but as you've already got Honours in your list, I think this is overkill.


A Prince, Noble or Warrior Mage may each have ONE of the following honours (or an Archmage/mage, where specified), which do not count towards magic item allotment:

Horsemaster 10 points: Must ride unbarded steed. Follows all rules for fast cavalry, and suffers no penalties for moving and shooting.

Shadow Walker 30 points: Gains special rules Scout, Nagarythe Hatred. May not ride a mount. Must be either alone on foot or in a unit of shadow warriors.

Hunter 20 points: Comes with a Lion cloak and may only be on foot or ride in a lion chariot (+130), replacing the crew, which counts as a special choice. Is immune to fear for the purposes of attacking enemies and may re-roll to-wound rolls against enemies US3 or greater.

Swordmaster 30 points: May not ride a mount. Gains +1WS and Killing blow. Does not get this bonus if using any weapon which counts as a spear or halberd.

Seafarer 25 points: Must either be on foot or on a flying mount. The character and any unit he joins may re-roll failed psychology tests, and any to-hit rolls on shots when declaring a stand-and-shoot.

Drake Master 20 points: High Elf Lord only. Must ride a dragon. As long as the rider is alive, both rider and mount are immune to panic. Any dragon ridden by this character may use his rider's LD for the rest of the battle if his rider is slain, and need not test on the Monster Reaction chart.

Citadel Guardian 25 points: The army must have at least one unit of spears for each Citadel guardian. One unit of spears in the army gain +1WS and may carry a magic banner up to 50 points (this unit counts as the First among Equals, so only a single unit of spears may take a 50 point banner; taking multiple Citadel guardians does not allow multiple units of spears to have a 50 point banner). In addition, any unit of spears accompanied by this character is immune to panic as long as he remains in the regiment.

Scholar of the White Tower 15 points. Mage or Archmage only. This mage may nominate any spell up to his magic level as the default spell. For example, if the mage is L3 and is using high magic, he/she may choose either shield of saphery, curse of arrow attraction or fury of khaine as the default spell.

Magus of Truth 30 points: Archmage only. Must use high magic. Any unit targeted by a spell cast by a character with this honour must reveal any and all magical items, daemonic gifts, hidden characters, etc in the unit. The archmage may choose to swap drain magic for the following spell:

A lot of these honors look very similar to what we came up with in our 6th edition revision forum, but I've been thinking about this and for Honours to be worthwhile having in the list they need to accomplish several things:

1) Add great flavour and versatility to our characters. Without this, there is not much point having them.
2) Impact the structure of our list without going to the extent of enforcing or "theming" lists by province. The other armies can't do this the way High Elves can. However, we shouldn't have 10 different armies in 1. What I would like Honours to allow is essentially to allow for players to theme their armies if they choose, but it needs to be done in a way that isn't overpowered.
3) Be balanced and moderate in power and impact.


I think some of your Honours fit this, but some don't. Horsemaster is just plain worthless..I don't see any players ever using it. Seafarer doesn't really make a whole lot of sense and doesn't feel that fluffy or characterful to me. In practical terms, High Elves already have enough defenses against psychology..we don't need any more. High Elves should still be subject to fleeing in panic or fear occassionally. Citadel Guardian same thing really..unnecessary.

BANISHMENT 11+: Only affects Daemonic and Undead units. May be cast on any enemy unit within 12". Unit suffers 2d6 wounds with no armour or regeneration ward allowed (normal and daemonic wards may be used).

Any archmage with the Banishment spell inflicts an automatic wound in each player's magic phase on all Daemonic/Undead model in base contact. Armour and regeneration saves may not be used against these wounds.

CORE

Archers

Special Rules: Valour of Ages, Morvael's Legacy
Stats: as is
Equipment: Longbow, light armour
Cost 10
Command: 5/10/5

Spears

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, First among equals
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 9
Command: 8/8/4

Sea Guard

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment: Spear, bow, light armour, shield
Cost: 13
Command: 10/10/5. Any unit of Sea Guard may carry a magic standard up to 25 points.

SPECIAL

Silver Helms

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Undoubted Mettle, Valour of Ages
Stats: WS5, otherwise as is
Equipment: Lance, heavy armour, shield. Rides elven steed.
Options: May choose to have barding at no cost.
Cost: 24
Command: 14/14/7. Any unit may have a magic banner up to 25 points. Champion may have a magic item up to 25 points.

NEW RULE--Undaunted Mettle: A unit with this rule may re-roll all psychology tests.
Again with the psychology defence...enough already lol.

Ellyrian Reavers

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Fast Cavalry
Stats: WS5, otherwise as is
Equipment: as is
Options: as is
Cost: 17
Command: 14/14/7. Champion has 2A instead of BS5. Any unit may purchase a magic banner up to 25 points. Champion may have magic items up to 25 points.

Dragon Princes

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Reckless Valour, Valour of Ages, Dragon Armour
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 33
Command:18/18/9. Any unit may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Drake master may carry up to 25 points worth of magic items

NEW RULE: Reckless Valour: Any unit subject to this rule is immune to psychology when declaring their first charge
Seriously, you may as well be done with it and make our whole army immune to psychology with all the large amounts of psych defence you're including throughout this list.

Sword Masters

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 14/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Bladelord may have up to 35 points worth of magic items.

White Lions

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, woodsmen, stubborn, lion cloak
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 12/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Guardian may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.

Phoenix Guard

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Cause Fear, 4+ ward save.
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 15
Command: 12/12/6. Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Keeper of the Flame may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.


Shadow Warriors

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Nagarythe Hatred, Scout, Skirmish
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 14
Command: Shadow Walker +12.

Tiranoc Chariot

Special Rules: Chariot, Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: WS5, Otherwise as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 85

Lion Chariot of Chrace

Special Rules: Chariot, Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Cause Fear
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 140

RARE

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Volley
Stats: as is
Equipment: hand weapon, light armour
Cost: 100

Great Eagle

Special Rules: Fly
Stats: as s
Equipment: as is
Cost: as is

Lord of the Eagles:

M WS BS S T W I A LD
2 5 0 5 4 4 4 3 9

Special Rules: Fly, Cause Fear, Lord of the Eagles
equipment: talons (hand weapon)
Cost: 90
Slot: 1 rare

NEW RULE: Lord of the Eagles: Any great eagles in the army may use its LD. Despite having 4W, eagle lords are such adept flyers that they do not count as large targets. Additionally, due to dwelling in magic-saturated mountains and forests, an eagle lord has MR:1.

However, eagle lords are rare and reclusive, and will aid the elves in battle only in times of massive war and upheaval. A high elf army may only have 1 Eagle lord for every lord choice taken in the army. For example, if you have 1 High Elf Lord and 1 Archmage, you can have 2 Eagle Lords.


CHARACTERs

Lords

High Elf Lord:

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May not use high magic.
Stats: as is
Equipment Options: As is, except Great Weapon now costs 15 points
Mount options: As is, except Star Dragons now take both a hero and two rare slots. Also, riding in a chariot counts as a special slot, the character replaces the crew.
Cost: 175
No. Not all High Elf characters know magic. No way should a Prince be a level 1 mage automatically.

Archmage:

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 3 wizard. May upgrade to L4 for +35 points
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is
Mount options: as is
Cost: 225

Heroes

Noble

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is, except cost of great weapon increased to 10
Mount options: as is, except riding in a chariot counts as a special slot, the character replaces the crew.
Cost: 85

Dragon Mage

M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 4 4 3 2 5 2 8

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Reckless, Warrior Mage
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May upgrade to L2 for +35. Always uses fire magic.
Stats: as is
Equipment: As per Noble, but may not purchase any armour, magical or otherwise
Rides: Sun Dragon.
Cost: 350

Warrior-mage

M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 5 4 3 2 6 3 8

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Warrior Mage
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May upgrade to L2 for +35.
Equipment Options: As Noble, but may not purchase any armour, magical or otherwise. May not be the BSB.
Mount options: as noble
Cost: 125pts

Mage

Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 1 wizard. May upgrade to L2 for +35 points
Stats: as is
Equipment options: as is
Mount options: as is
Cost: 100
Overall, it's a pretty good list Simeon. I like most of the magic items..I'm mostly just not sold on the honours, some of the special rules and a few little things here and there. When I get time, I'll post up my own list.
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

Re: Re:

#19 Post by Gondarion »

Maxwell123 wrote:I've never been a fan of "Speed of Asuryan" as an army wide special rule. It makes sense for individual characters and some certain units (Swordmasters for example) due to their training, etc..but for a whole race? Just don't buy it. I also don't like it because it allows the entire army to ignore one of the basic concepts of the game - that you must get the charge to guarantee striking first.
In practical terms, High Elves already have enough defenses against psychology..we don't need any more. High Elves should still be subject to fleeing in panic or fear occassionally. Citadel Guardian same thing really..unnecessary

Seriously, you may as well be done with it and make our whole army immune to psychology with all the large amounts of psych defence you're including throughout this list.

Sure it does, but how many armies these days actually "play Warhammer"? Think about it. Many armies are mostly skirmishers or mostly monsters (a couple can be all cavalry). Some armies don't ever run, some have universal ward saves, some can cancel out entire phases of the game for 25 points.

Psychology is where it is most extreme. Most armies have either extreme psychological weaponry or access to nearly universal psychological protection. A poster on the Warhammer Forum recently (and devastatingly put) when playing a game against an old school skaven army (few plague monks I guess) that it was kind of refreshing to play an army that took panic tests, to which a tournament mainstay responded that yes, he also hadn't played in ages against armies which weren't either completely or mostly immune to the effects of panic that determined the viable armies, and there were very few which panic wasn't easily canceled out, and those few without the current normal levels of psychological protection were the ones left out in the cold. Its painfully clear that as nice and balanced as Orcs and Goblins appeared with the new list, they stand no chance against Daemons or Vampire Counts, or even some other psychologically powerful armies. The new Lizardmen offered the outrageously lame option of nearly an entire army of stegadon/other large dinosaurs, which really doesn't work against psychologically resistant armies and anything with a bloodlthirster wrecks the army single-handedly. Against traditionally built armies, with foot units which aren't unbreakable or immune to psychology, its unfair in the other direction.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are no principles or coherent left in the game, its a fucked up free for all with no cohesion. GW's business practices and deficient developers have killed the game in 7th edition. It used to be people could argue that it was abusing the rules which was necessary to break the game. Now, gamers have to try very hard to rig the system to work in the traditional manner, and Daemons cannot possible be made to work in any real semblance.

Warhammer has been broken. One can work on revising all the armies together as with these high elf rules, and if so more could be done to deal with ASF or too much psychological resistance. These rules were written with the current milieu in mind, and you'd find quite a few who think high elves are very weak psychologically in the current game system. Warhammer has fallen greatly in the last 1 1/2 years.

Honestly, my favorite project I've been dabbling with is a complete new Warhammer from scratch, nothing whatsoever kept as it is, a completely different game. I've given up on GW, I no longer care about what they do in the future.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
User avatar
Maxwell123
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Re:

#20 Post by Maxwell123 »

Gondarion wrote:
Maxwell123 wrote:I've never been a fan of "Speed of Asuryan" as an army wide special rule. It makes sense for individual characters and some certain units (Swordmasters for example) due to their training, etc..but for a whole race? Just don't buy it. I also don't like it because it allows the entire army to ignore one of the basic concepts of the game - that you must get the charge to guarantee striking first.
In practical terms, High Elves already have enough defenses against psychology..we don't need any more. High Elves should still be subject to fleeing in panic or fear occassionally. Citadel Guardian same thing really..unnecessary

Seriously, you may as well be done with it and make our whole army immune to psychology with all the large amounts of psych defence you're including throughout this list.

Sure it does, but how many armies these days actually "play Warhammer"? Think about it. Many armies are mostly skirmishers or mostly monsters (a couple can be all cavalry). Some armies don't ever run, some have universal ward saves, some can cancel out entire phases of the game for 25 points.

Psychology is where it is most extreme. Most armies have either extreme psychological weaponry or access to nearly universal psychological protection. A poster on the Warhammer Forum recently (and devastatingly put) when playing a game against an old school skaven army (few plague monks I guess) that it was kind of refreshing to play an army that took panic tests, to which a tournament mainstay responded that yes, he also hadn't played in ages against armies which weren't either completely or mostly immune to the effects of panic that determined the viable armies, and there were very few which panic wasn't easily canceled out, and those few without the current normal levels of psychological protection were the ones left out in the cold. Its painfully clear that as nice and balanced as Orcs and Goblins appeared with the new list, they stand no chance against Daemons or Vampire Counts, or even some other psychologically powerful armies. The new Lizardmen offered the outrageously lame option of nearly an entire army of stegadon/other large dinosaurs, which really doesn't work against psychologically resistant armies and anything with a bloodlthirster wrecks the army single-handedly. Against traditionally built armies, with foot units which aren't unbreakable or immune to psychology, its unfair in the other direction.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are no principles or coherent left in the game, its a fucked up free for all with no cohesion. GW's business practices and deficient developers have killed the game in 7th edition. It used to be people could argue that it was abusing the rules which was necessary to break the game. Now, gamers have to try very hard to rig the system to work in the traditional manner, and Daemons cannot possible be made to work in any real semblance.

Warhammer has been broken. One can work on revising all the armies together as with these high elf rules, and if so more could be done to deal with ASF or too much psychological resistance. These rules were written with the current milieu in mind, and you'd find quite a few who think high elves are very weak psychologically in the current game system. Warhammer has fallen greatly in the last 1 1/2 years.

Honestly, my favorite project I've been dabbling with is a complete new Warhammer from scratch, nothing whatsoever kept as it is, a completely different game. I've given up on GW, I no longer care about what they do in the future.
I can understand your frustration. The game has certainly changed a lot. However, it has never been perfect or anywhere near it. In 4th and 5th edition, monsters and characters were extremely overpowered, as was magic. In that sense the game is a lot more balanced now and regular troops and units actually make a difference.
With psychology, every army needs some form of psychological defence against fear, otherwise they'd stand little chance against Chaos Daemons and Vampire Counts. But at the same time, their psychological defence should never get so strong that almost all their units have it. Against these armies, there should be a reasonable chance that a couple of your units will flee in fear/panic. Dealing with the psychology was always supposed to be one of the challenges when facing these armies though.
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

Re: Re:

#21 Post by Gondarion »

Maxwell123 wrote: I can understand your frustration. The game has certainly changed a lot. However, it has never been perfect or anywhere near it. In 4th and 5th edition, monsters and characters were extremely overpowered, as was magic. In that sense the game is a lot more balanced now and regular troops and units actually make a difference.
4th-5th edition was far more over the top, I agree. Yet because most of the power was in the universally available magic items (and to a lesser extent spells) there was a sort of boring balance. There weren't gaps in power like there is now with Daemons and everyone else.
With psychology, every army needs some form of psychological defence against fear, otherwise they'd stand little chance against Chaos Daemons and Vampire Counts. But at the same time, their psychological defence should never get so strong that almost all their units have it. Against these armies, there should be a reasonable chance that a couple of your units will flee in fear/panic. Dealing with the psychology was always supposed to be one of the challenges when facing these armies though.]
This is a perfect example of what is wrong. The main problem is that everything has gotten out of hand. Too many armies were given too much psychological protection, so GW responded by ramping up the psychological weaponry of the main psychology-based armies (Daemons, Vampire Counts) to an insane level. This of course has no effect on the psychologically protected, but for the few armies which don't have nearly universal protection, particularly with Orcs+Goblins, they're left out in the cold. With some armies, they're literally playing a different game. The cat got out of the bag with psychology, saves et al and GW keeps trying to patch one books negative addition in the next book. They're basically chasing their own tail, and the game continues to spiral downward.

As I see it, the problem used to be that the game was okay, the army books were bad. However, the problems in the army books are now seeping into the basic game, and I think it can be seen that they in some measure were caused by a couple of seemingly minor decision at the outset of 6th edition, and have caused a multitude of domino effects.

There are two ways to fix it: the minor way, which is to amend (though not fully re-write) each army list to be more on the same level of play, or at least be playing the same game. The other option, which I and others have done a bit of, is completely redesigning Warhammer from scratch, a completely new game (as my signatures show).
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
User avatar
Maxwell123
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Re:

#22 Post by Maxwell123 »

Gondarion wrote:
Maxwell123 wrote: As I see it, the problem used to be that the game was okay, the army books were bad. However, the problems in the army books are now seeping into the basic game, and I think it can be seen that they in some measure were caused by a couple of seemingly minor decision at the outset of 6th edition, and have caused a multitude of domino effects.

There are two ways to fix it: the minor way, which is to amend (though not fully re-write) each army list to be more on the same level of play, or at least be playing the same game. The other option, which I and others have done a bit of, is completely redesigning Warhammer from scratch, a completely new game (as my signatures show).
I don't think Warhammer is so bad that it needs to be completely redesigned personally. And also a complete redesign will mean that it is no longer Warhammer, but something else.
Gondarion
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:04 am

Re: Re:

#23 Post by Gondarion »

Maxwell123 wrote: I don't think Warhammer is so bad that it needs to be completely redesigned personally. And also a complete redesign will mean that it is no longer Warhammer, but something else.
I think the game can still be good as it is, but the onus is entirely on the players to make it so, to me it makes
even the idea of tournaments completely undesirable (pickup games already suck).
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3
Citizen Militia
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Haven't posted my amended rules in awhile (swing away)

#24 Post by Citizen Militia »

have you considered under your army that somebody could make a prince with
Blade of leaping gold (+3A)
Swordmaster (+1WS, KB)
ToL (Rerolls to hit and to wound)

that makes a total of 7 attacks with killing blow and rerolls!!! Thats mental
since returning to the game after a 5 year break I have had 1 massacre loss, 3 minor losses, 2 draws, 3 minor wins, 3 solid wins, 2 massacres :)
Post Reply