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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:11 am 
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I really love those oldschool models! It's a nice army. Too bad about the outcome, but as you say, you'll need to scrape of the rust.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:24 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
This game showed how rusty I was, having not played in a year. Tom was sharper and was right more often than me over rules points, something I normally pride myself on. Still, it was educational.

This is probably a big factor. Especially with a relatively unfamiliar list. It's a game of skill after all, where small differences can lead to very different outcomes. Things like holding with the goblins against the knights charge for instance. I think if you'd been playing regularly and had used O&G lists a handful more times then you would have won this one. As discussed, I think you had several opportunities this game to change the outcome (hindsight is a wonderful thing ;) ).

I know you're usually strapped for time, which makes it hard to get games in. But if you want to play a practice game online at any point (I think Universal battle is still going), just let me know. We can probably work something out. Or even play a game over several evenings if you want.

Also, if memory serves me right, this was a 3 game tournament. So get writing on the third part of the series ;)

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
really love those oldschool models! It's a nice army. Too bad about the outcome, but as you say, you'll need to scrape of the rust.

Thanks Flame. I kind of wish I’d brought a fully painted army but I was really keen to use what I’d been working on. A shame to lose again but I’ve gone through whole tournaments before without a win. Sometimes it just happens.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I know you're usually strapped for time, which makes it hard to get games in. But if you want to play a practice game online at any point (I think Universal battle is still going), just let me know. We can probably work something out. Or even play a game over several evenings if you want.

Thanks Rod. I’m a bit old-fashioned for such things but I’ll give it some thought.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Also, if memory serves me right, this was a 3 game tournament. So get writing on the third part of the series

Your wish is my command...


Game 3 - Battle Line

Having lost my first two games, I was on Table 5 (the lowest) so might have expected an easier game. However, I was drawn against Nikki, who had won the last tournament I played with her Wood Elves. This time though, she brought Vampire Counts.

Orc Warboss, 2+ Armour, Dawnstone, Ironcurse, Great Weapon
Orc Lvl 4, Crown of Command, Power Stone, 4+ Ward
Black Orc BSB, 4+ Ward Armour
Shaman, Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring

26 Big’Uns, Spears, Shields, FC, Razor Std
20 Goblins, Shortbows, FC
5 Wolf Riders, Shortbows, Musician

2 Snotling Bases
2 Snotling Bases
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka

8 Stone Trolls
Rock Lobber

13 Horrors, Full Command
4 Beasts of Nurgle
Beast of Nurgle


Master Necromancer, Lvl 4, Stuff
Vampire, Lvl 1, Horse, ASF, 1+ AS, 4+ Ward, +2 Attacks Sword
Wight King BSB, Knight Kit

40 Skeletons, FC
20 Ghouls
5 Wolves
5 Wolves

9 Black Knights, Lances, Barding, Banner of the Barrows
8 Blood Knights, FC, Flag of Blood Keep

5 Dark Riders, Spears, RXB
5 Dark Riders, Spears, RXB

Incarnate Elemental of Death(?)


Thoughts on the match-up?

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:33 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
I know you're usually strapped for time, which makes it hard to get games in. But if you want to play a practice game online at any point (I think Universal battle is still going), just let me know. We can probably work something out. Or even play a game over several evenings if you want.

Thanks Rod. I’m a bit old-fashioned for such things but I’ll give it some thought.

It's not a replacement for a real in person game. But it's a nice way to get in some practice with a list. So, the offer stands if you ever want to get a couple of games in.

For the lists, I'm assuming just a default battle line game, since nothing is specified.
I think in this game you have a ranged advantage. And some actual viable targets for your shooting. The chukka's can probably get a couple of wounds here and there. And they might even get lucky with a flank on some of the cavaly or wolves. Same with the goblins. They're good enough for the wolves and perhaps the odd wound on the dark riders. Which is what you'd expect from them I think. And the rock lobber is fine for dealing with the bigger blocks.

It's a very mobile list though. So that's the main worry. Make sure you keep your lines compact and occupy / redirect some of the units. So, protect your flanks. If you can deal with stuff one on one then you'll probably come out on top. Also, the characters can be nasty, but that's not really a surprise for VC. So that's something to keep in mind here.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
For the lists, I'm assuming just a default battle line game, since nothing is specified.

SpellArcher wrote:
Game 3 - Battle Line

:)

Prince of Spires wrote:
I think in this game you have a ranged advantage. And some actual viable targets for your shooting. The chukka's can probably get a couple of wounds here and there. And they might even get lucky with a flank on some of the cavaly or wolves. Same with the goblins. They're good enough for the wolves and perhaps the odd wound on the dark riders. Which is what you'd expect from them I think. And the rock lobber is fine for dealing with the bigger blocks.

I agree Rod. It’s not an especially awesome shooting phase but Nikki was wary of it.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It's a very mobile list though. So that's the main worry. Make sure you keep your lines compact and occupy / redirect some of the units. So, protect your flanks. If you can deal with stuff one on one then you'll probably come out on top. Also, the characters can be nasty, but that's not really a surprise for VC. So that's something to keep in mind here.

I was quite careful about how I deployed my key units Rod, in particular keeping the enemy knights in mind.

Overall I think this may be a +1 match-up. The Lvl 4 was rocking Lore of Death though, rolling three of the snipes. The Vampire defaulted to Invocation and the Horrors to Blue Fire. My Shamen had the whole of Big Waaagh except the signature spell.

Deployment

Image

Here we see the VC right. Dark Riders (with Master Necromancer) are on the flank. Next the Ghouls. Just inside the wood are a unit of wolves, behind these Black Knights (and Wight King).

Image

VC centre. First Skeletons, then Blood Knights with Vampire, screened by more wolves. Lastly the Incarnate Elemental. The second unit of Dark Riders are on the far flank, out of shot.

Image

Here's my centre. The Trolls are opposite the Skeletons and the Orcs (with all characters) opposite the Blood Knights. I learned quite fast how key it is to keep these units close. In the top right corner just out of shot are some Snotlings. Bottom left is part of the Rock Lobber.

Further to my left out of shot were more Snotlings, then Beasts with Goblins far left, backed by a bolt shooter. To the right of the photo I had the second bolt shooter, solo Beast, Horrors and finally Wolf Riders, 3rd bolt shooter behind these.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:20 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
For the lists, I'm assuming just a default battle line game, since nothing is specified.

SpellArcher wrote:
Game 3 - Battle Line

:)

#-o :-6
SpellArcher wrote:
I was quite careful about how I deployed my key units Rod, in particular keeping the enemy knights in mind.

Overall I think this may be a +1 match-up.

This was my conclusion as well. Deny her the full use of her mobility in the knights and you have some advantage. A lvl 4 with death is nasty. But he's a bit far out on the flank perhaps, so he'll need some boosted versions. Also, I see no scroll mentioned in the VC army. So you might have that advantage as well.

It should be an interesting fight for sure.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Blood Knights

Take these for example. They are 50pts each basic and 500pts+ for the unit. One wound each, T4 and a 2+ AS. They do have a protective banner but that costs 75pts. Paying an awful lot for what you get. Yes they hit hard but the second rank gets one attack per model instead of three like the first rank. Plus O&G have some tools to hurt them.

It’s no accident that VC cavalry power lists tend to have a Blender Lord with Red Fury (Nikki’s character is good but you want the best you can get), tons of Black Knights to soak up wounds and supporting characters. In our game the power is split between two units, which is easier for a foe to tackle.

It’s very like High Elves. You want lots of Silver Helms because they’re cheaper wounds than Dragon Princes (added bonus of being Core of course). Then you want the Cavalry Prince, as strong as you can build him plus supporting characters.

I’m not mad about Blood Knights. But I suspect they might work best in a single rank of say 5-7 (no characters) to maximise attacks, much like Wild Riders. Though I guess Unstable is an additional headache here. You wouldn’t want them charged in the flank for example.


Turn One

Image

A bit concerned about the Dark Riders on my right, I pushed the Wolf Riders right up to slow them down. On my left the Snotlings ran forwards, followed by the Beasts. Orcs and Trolls stayed put but the lighter units advanced to slow the VC push down.

Image

Magic did little but shooting was better. The Wolf Riders took down two Dark Riders, the remainder failed their Panic test and fled! I believe a war machine put a couple of wounds on the Incarnate Elemental.

Image

Adding insult to injury, the Fleeing Dark Riders failed to rally and exited the battlefield. The VC units advanced in the centre. On my left, the other Dark Riders came forward very aggressively, supported by the Ghouls, with the wolves and Black Knights trotting through the wood.

Image

Magic was a bit unpleasant, destroying my leftmost bolt shooter, which then Panicked the Goblins!

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:59 am 
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Not that much to comment on yet. The wolves mightily impressed me though. Scoring a whole unit! That must be a first ;) It does show the importance of a BSB (though you'll always have some units out on the flanks). 2 LD rolls are not that hard to fail in a row. 4 is a lot more unlikely :)

A shame on the Goblins running, though it's not totally unexpected of course. It's the curse of a goblin army. And the reason you see lot's of characters in goblin units. that extra LD point (or 2 for bigger units) makes a difference. Not worth the investment in this case though.

SpellArcher wrote:
Incarnate Elemental.

What does this thing actually do?

So far, so good I think. You at the moment have reasonable controle over the battlefield. That's likely to end once your redirectors are gone. So you need to make sure you're in a commanding position by then. Otherwise the VC will run circles around you.

SpellArcher wrote:
Blood Knights

I agree with the analysis. I think the "blame" is two-fold. Supporting attacks and steadfast. With steadfast, you can usually hold vs an initial charge. Which matters for cavalry and it gives an opportunity to bring reinforcements into the fight.

Supporting attacks are great for models with 1 attack (or monstrous infantry / beasts). However, it greatly reduces the cost effectiveness of models with more attacks. Comparing SH and DP one on one makes the DP come out on top. 6 points for an extra point of I, extra attack, 6+ ward and 2+ vs flaming? Yes please. The only thing SH have in the comparison is that they are core (which is even here a bonus). However, once you go beyond the first rank those 6 points are virtually wasted and they end up as just more expensive bodies. And then the economics of listbuilding kick in and you end up with a less then ideal unit whose role is played cheaper by a core unit.

This is also one of the reasons you rarely see SM in a high elf list. They are a great model, just not a great unit. If SM would have 2 attacks in the rear ranks they would be awesome* (a rule I would have preferred over deflect shots to be honest). As they are now for a bigger unit they are just weaker, non-stubborn WL with 25% more attacks (instead of 100%)

*Just imagine a horde of SM with 2 attacks per rank. 80 WS6 S5 I5 attacks (instead of "just" the 50 they have now). All for a lovely 550 points. That's a true infantry blender.

So, as a result, these heavy cavalry units are relegated to support duty MSU style in favor of blocks of medium cavalry or monstrous cavalry.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
The wolves mightily impressed me though. Scoring a whole unit! That must be a first

Some units just do well and some badly, for some reason. So far so good with my Wolf Riders! The footsloggers not so much...

Prince of Spires wrote:
What does this thing actually do?

Sort of mid-level monster specs? Hover. It has a (short) ranged attack that hurts armoured stuff. Plus a one-off nuclear version with 3D6” area effect that also damages itself.

Prince of Spires wrote:
As they are now for a bigger unit they are just weaker, non-stubborn WL with 25% more attacks

I feel it’s slightly more complex than that. Swordmasters have WS6 and fight better than Lions as the rear ranks are depleted. Deflect Shots of course does help when rocking a High Magic Archmage in the unit and Seredain always said that for his style of play he’d always take them over Lions, though he ultimately concluded that Phoenix Guard made even more sense. Curu thought the S5 was just not enough against the strongest enemies, though adding World Dragon makes a huge difference. Ultimately though, Stubborn Lions are just more forgiving, there’s less margin for error with SM’s.

Prince of Spires wrote:
So, as a result, these heavy cavalry units are relegated to support duty MSU style in favor of blocks of medium cavalry or monstrous cavalry.

Exactly Rod. Blood Knights are 50pts per model, Demigryphs only 58! Go figure. A classic example is Chaos Knights, which are playable but when you’ve got Skullcrushers competing for the same points, why would you?


Turn Two

Image

The Trolls made a long charge into wolves, while the solo Beast got very helpfully into the flank of the Blood Knights. In strange symmetry with the Dark Riders on the other flank, the Goblins screamed and fled the field. Both Snotling units got into the faces of the Undead. On the left I’d spotted a very promising diagonal charge from the Beasts into the surviving Dark Riders and their friend the Master Necromancer. Fleeing would take taken these off the board so they had to Hold and the Beasts made it in. The Vampire Made Way but only did two wounds, so the Blood Knight combat stuck. The Trolls killed the wolves and lurched forwards. The Beasts broke and caught their foes, no more Lvl 4. They even Overran into the Ghouls as well.

Image

The Incarnate Elemental charged the Horrors. The Skeletons charged their Snotlings while the Black Knights went into the flank of the already engaged Beasts. The surviving wolves slipped past and into charge range of the Rock Lobber.

Image

Invocation was dispelled. The Beasts held their own despite being flanked and that combat stuck. The Skeletons destroyed the snotties and the Vampire killed off the Beast, freeing up the Blood Knights. The Incarnate Elemental killed three Horrors but the unit had the cheek to roll double one for their Daemonic Instability and regained all three!

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:56 am 
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Interesting turn. A lot happening all over the field I think. It reads like you're getting the combats you want, which is always nice. Of course, the goblins running is less then ideal. But they're goblins. It's sort of what you'd expect from them. And getting rid of the enemy lvl4 is pretty nice. It seriously tones down their magic.

SpellArcher wrote:
Black Knights went into the flank of the already engaged Beasts.

I understand the logic (and I would probably have done the same), but this feels risky to me. The beasts should probably be able to kill enough ghouls to tie the combat and prevent wounds from crumble. And then you're stuck in a combat you can't really win. Even more so since you can't get all models in combat vs the flank. Of course, you keep the beasts busy for a while. But is it worth the investment and couldn't the knights have been of more use elsewhere? I'm not sure. Perhaps writing off the ghouls as lost and concentrating on the rest of your army would have been a better choice.

SpellArcher wrote:
The Incarnate Elemental killed three Horrors but the unit had the cheek to roll double one for their Daemonic Instability and regained all three!

A mid level monster indeed. Sounds a bit like a flamespire in powerlevel with some specific special rules for it. Like the flamespire, I'm not too convinced of mid level monsters.

I do like the cheekiness of the horrors. Seems like you're getting all sorts of personalities in the army list.

All in all, I think you're in a good position, though you're not home free yet. And the blood knights are still a force to be reckoned with.

SpellArcher wrote:
I feel it’s slightly more complex than that.

It always is ;) which is part of what makes it fun and how there still can be multiple competitive lists. If it was simple then there would be a straightforward best option.

WS 6 nice. But S6 is better in almost every single way. Strength has a dual impact in that it increases your chance to wound AND it reduces armour saves. With anything with a 4+ armour save or better you'll notice the difference.

Because of the to hit chart, the WS difference on the other hand only matters in a WS6 vs WS5 combat. You hit on a 3+ and get hit on a 4+ In all other cases the outcome is exactly the same (even vs WS 2 for instance). It's a nice bonus of course. But it is also a lot more situational. You're basically only better off when fighting elite T3, 5+AS infantry. In all other situations, the higher S attack performs equally well or better. I personally think that both the to hit and the to wound table should be the same. But that's probably a different discussion and not something that's likely to ever change again ;)

SM do indeed keep up their damage output better then WL because of the two attacks in the front rank. Which is why as a small unit or in a MSU/MMU army list they have their place. I think for Seredain they were also a smallish support unit. So they definitely work there. A unit of 10 SM makes more sense then a unit of 10 WL I think.

Stubborn adds a lot of reliability to the list. When your dice screw you over it's nice to have a backup plan. Which maybe makes them better for tournament style lists. It can make the difference between winning and losing when you lose a big fight and instead of praying for double 1 you can just pick up the dice and say "stubborn LD8".

SM synergize nicely with high magic. But in general deflect shot isn't all that different from lion cloaks. a 6+ ward or +2 to your armour save will have roughly the same result (I haven't run the numbers, so going by feel here). Even more so since deflect shot doesn't work against templates, while the lion cloaks do.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:56 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
And getting rid of the enemy lvl4 is pretty nice.

Definitely a biggie.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I understand the logic (and I would probably have done the same), but this feels risky to me. The beasts should probably be able to kill enough ghouls to tie the combat and prevent wounds from crumble. And then you're stuck in a combat you can't really win. Even more so since you can't get all models in combat vs the flank. Of course, you keep the beasts busy for a while. But is it worth the investment and couldn't the knights have been of more use elsewhere? I'm not sure. Perhaps writing off the ghouls as lost and concentrating on the rest of your army would have been a better choice.

Agree completely.

Prince of Spires wrote:
WS 6 nice. But S6 is better in almost every single way. Strength has a dual impact in that it increases your chance to wound AND it reduces armour saves. With anything with a 4+ armour save or better you'll notice the difference.

I agree but the second attack is important too.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Because of the to hit chart, the WS difference on the other hand only matters in a WS6 vs WS5 combat. You hit on a 3+ and get hit on a 4+ In all other cases the outcome is exactly the same (even vs WS 2 for instance).

There are some outliers, like being hit on 4+ instead of 3+ by enemy WS 6. Hand of Glory can also affect this and is a spell a player bringing Swordmasters will likely generate. Miasma is quite common on the other side. But overall yes, no way would I suggest WS 6 approaches the utility of S6 on it’s own.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Stubborn adds a lot of reliability to the list. When your dice screw you over it's nice to have a backup plan. Which maybe makes them better for tournament style lists. It can make the difference between winning and losing when you lose a big fight and instead of praying for double 1 you can just pick up the dice and say "stubborn LD8".

Seredain wrote extensively about this. Lions are a solid all-round unit, though they have some weaknesses (elves in particular). But my Swordmaster play is derived from his and essentially means going all-in. The Swordmasters are there because they are good at killing a wide variety of enemy, fast. A list with them in is necessarily aggressive. Stubborn is less important here because if this unit isn’t winning combats the army is in trouble already. It’s set up to synergise with the High Archmage and Deflect Shots, Ironcurse Icon etc just add to this. It’s already formidable and if you can add World Dragon there are few units it can’t deal with.

As for tournaments, it depends what kind. I’ve tended to face a lot of Infantry in the events I’ve played, which favours Swordmasters. In tournaments full of multiple single model lists (monsters, tank characters) for example, Lions would be better.


Turn Three

The Trolls charged the Skeletons. With the enemy lvl 4 gone, Foot of Gork killed a pair of Blood Knights.

Image

The Beasts killed plenty of Ghouls and marginally won combat, with the Trolls more dominant in theirs.

Image

Nikki went for it and detonated the Incarnate Elemental. It died, along with several Horrors. Disastrously though, the shockwave ripped through the Blood Knights, killing all but one!

Image

The survivors charged and eliminated the remaining Snotlings. The Trolls severely reduced the Skeletons, while the Beasts destroyed the Ghouls and Reformed to face the Black Knights.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:11 am 
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Seems like things are going from bad to worse for the VC player in that turn. I don't think there is much left for her to do except try to conserve points. And given that most VC units are either in combat or severely depleted there is little options for that. Run for the hills with the blood knights probably.

Your T3 is a logical follow-up from T2. Deal with the weak stuff in combat first and use magic to take some models off stronger units here and there. Was all your shooting gone at this point or did it simply not achieve anything? Also, an I correct in thinking that your unit of Big'uns is still largely untouched somewhere in your backline?

SpellArcher wrote:
Nikki went for it and detonated the Incarnate Elemental.

Fun but seems like not really worth it. Perhaps if you get it into its ideal target (which seems to be heavily armoured small units). But other then that not the best option. Though it is a lovely model :)

You have this one in the bag. All that remains now is clearing up to score points and making sure your mage doesn't decide to visit the warp. :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote extensively about this. Lions are a solid all-round unit, though they have some weaknesses (elves in particular). But my Swordmaster play is derived from his and essentially means going all-in.

Good point. They are great if you need to get through bigger units fast. And Seredain was a master of setting up combined charges and controlling the movement phase. Which means you SM get the fights they want.

SpellArcher wrote:
As for tournaments, it depends what kind. I’ve tended to face a lot of Infantry in the events I’ve played, which favours Swordmasters. In tournaments full of multiple single model lists (monsters, tank characters) for example, Lions would be better.

Again a good point. Though perhaps tournament lists have become more sensible, more army like and less die hard. Most tournaments before AOS hit, especially if you read reports from Curu, Swordmaster and the likes, featured monstrous cavalry, monsters and character busses with tanky characters in there. WL are a logical fit in there (especially the BoTWD horde variety). I think the meta has shifted from there and the competitive excesses have largely disappeared from 8th edition tournaments. Which creates a meta that lets SM shine more.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:42 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Was all your shooting gone at this point or did it simply not achieve anything?

The latter! I was constantly shaking my elf head at the number of misses.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Also, an I correct in thinking that your unit of Big'uns is still largely untouched somewhere in your backline?

Yep. It’s radiating Ld 9 and BSB re-rolls and bunkering Foot of Gork.

:)

Prince of Spires wrote:
Again a good point. Though perhaps tournament lists have become more sensible, more army like and less die hard. Most tournaments before AOS hit, especially if you read reports from Curu, Swordmaster and the likes, featured monstrous cavalry, monsters and character busses with tanky characters in there. WL are a logical fit in there (especially the BoTWD horde variety). I think the meta has shifted from there and the competitive excesses have largely disappeared from 8th edition tournaments. Which creates a meta that lets SM shine more.

Agreed.


Turn Four

I passed on magic as Winds were insufficient for Foot of Gork, we only had time for this turn and no need to risk a miscast. My artillery finally woke up and removed the last Blood Knight, leaving the Vampire alone.

Image

The Beasts continued grinding down the Black Knights and the Trolls wiped out the Skeletons. The wolves then charged and destroyed my stone thrower. We could have played out the Vampire’s charge but instead I successfully rolled a Steadfast Ld 9 test, which meant that either of the Trolls or Big’Uns would have held without giving up any points.

Image

15 - 5

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:38 am 
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Congrats on the win. I think you had a slight edge in your army list. And you managed to capitalize on it very well. I think the victory could have been larger. But that would have required a lot more risk and aggressive play. Which would also have given a bigger risk of losing points unnecessarily. So I think you made the right call here, especially in a tournament setting.

Time for the tournament review I think ;) Where did you end up placing? How do you think the list and units performed?

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Was all your shooting gone at this point or did it simply not achieve anything?

The latter! I was constantly shaking my elf head at the number of misses.

I can definitely imagine. Elf players are spoiled in many ways. LD8 or higher across the board. Reliable shooting (though my archers never actually kill something. But they at least hit...). In combat, if you miss a lot, you simply pick up all those misses and reroll, aiming for 3+ in a lot of cases. No random movement or possibilities of your units misbehaving. HE go where you want them to go and are very consistent in their performance.

I think in part this is also what makes them annoying to play against for some people. The ASF rerolls are not overpowered per se. But when your 15 PG (or equivalent) all hit because you got to reroll those misses, it can certainly feel that way.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:26 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
I think in part this is also what makes them annoying to play against for some people. The ASF rerolls are not overpowered per se. But when your 15 PG (or equivalent) all hit because you got to reroll those misses, it can certainly feel that way.

I happily recall a Daemon player describing my Eternal Guard and Treeman-toting Wood Elf army as “Point and Click”. But elf lists can get a lot nastier than that.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Congrats on the win.

Thanks Rod. It has to be said my dice were mostly great and Nikki’s rotten. But leaving her Lvl 4 so vulnerable was a big mistake and we’ve already discussed whether the Black Knight charge was a good idea. Getting the solo Beast into the Blood Knight flank was helpful.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Where did you end up placing?

I’m not certain Rod, about 7th/10 maybe? I approached the event just to enjoy playing rather than competitively as I would have done with my High Elves. Rustiness and unfamiliarity with my army obviously restricted what was possible.

My list wasn't terrible. The Big'Uns are inferior to Savage Orcs but they're fairly solid. Without Doom Divers the artillery will always be hit-and-miss. The Goblins were rubbish but the Wolf Riders were great! The Trolls were OK. Of course when you bring Beasts of Nurgle you're always in with a shot.

:)

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SpellArcher wrote:
I happily recall a Daemon player describing my Eternal Guard and Treeman-toting Wood Elf army as “Point and Click”.

I do sometimes feel a bit bad when I pcik up some dice to yet again re-roll the few misses to aim for more 3+ rolls. Or when a LD check is almost a formality with LD9 and a reroll. Or even LD8 for stuff far away on a flank. The reverse is of course that the cheapest model is 9 points per model and it doesn't fight all that much better then your average clanrat.

SpellArcher wrote:
Without Doom Divers the artillery will always be hit-and-miss.

Actually, your artillery seemed more miss-and-miss then hit-and-miss in most games ;)

SpellArcher wrote:
Thanks Rod. It has to be said my dice were mostly great and Nikki’s rotten

This always helps of course. Though part of it also is placing yourself in a position where the dice can go your way and where a terrible roll doesn't screw you over.

SpellArcher wrote:
I’m not certain Rod, about 7th/10 maybe? I approached the event just to enjoy playing rather than competitively as I would have done with my High Elves.

In the end it's a game. This is the whole point to me. It should be enjoyed (by both players!). The winning/losing part is secondary. Or at least, afterwards it is. While playing I'll always aim for the win :) While of course your expectations change depending on what you bring.

I think it was a good event to get a feel for the O&G army and playstyle. The fact that you could add in the beasts added some reliability and hitting power which gave you the choice to bring other O&G stuff.

I do think that in general O&G tend to be rubbish. You either bring them as you did as a cheap diversion or you take all efforts to base your army around them. Which includes finding ways to deal with their terrible LD, adding in some surprises (fanatics, nasty skulkers might even be worth it in bigger blocks) and going a bit heavier on rares.

Trolls I think you have to get the hang of a bit. It feels like they were wandering a bit aimlessly in the first two games.

Rod

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Prince of Spires wrote:
Actually, your artillery seemed more miss-and-miss then hit-and-miss in most games

=D>

Prince of Spires wrote:
I do think that in general O&G tend to be rubbish.

Too often! Every competitive list I’ve seen though, looks much like this:

Savage Warboss
Savage Lvl 4 with Lucky Shrunken Head
Savage BSB
Savage Lvl 2 with Scroll

35 or so Savage Big’Uns

8 or 9 Trolls

2 Rock Lobbers
2 Doom Divers
2 Mangler Squigs

This list can certainly compete, though it tends better against armour than enemy without.


Conclusion

The tournament was won by Lee with High Elves! Second were Luke’s Warriors of Chaos with Nav’s Lizardmen in third. Props to Mark for running things, it was great to play a tournament again. The venue was a bit cosy but otherwise great. I found Milton Keynes pretty good to get to, about as convenient as the Midlands get from my neck of the woods. More please!

Image

(Above from Matt’s fine WoC army.)

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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
I do think that in general O&G tend to be rubbish.

Too often!
Hm, I think I originally intended to write that just about goblins... ;)

But I do think it's a reasonably valid conclusion. At least as far as tournaments go. The army is a bit too dice dependent to really compete for the top spots. Savage orcs get round that a bit with their high number of relatively high S attacks (for core infantry at least). And a 5+ ward is pretty nice as well.

But pure goblin (and friends) lists suffer from low LD, which means that if things don't go your way your army can fall appart fast. Any LD test becomes a potential threat when you're LD 5 or 6.

And generic orcs suffer from the same issues most infantry units suffer from. Too slow with a small save and not enough damage output per inch of frontage.

Still, it's a fun army. And that's worth something as well.

It reads like a great tournament with some fun people. On to the next one!

Rod

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Prince of Spires wrote:
The army is a bit too dice dependent to really compete for the top spots.

Depends on the opposition I think Rod. I remember them winning SCGT one year, partly because the top of the field was swimming in Warriors of Chaos, though the general was obviously very able.

Prince of Spires wrote:
But pure goblin (and friends) lists suffer from low LD, which means that if things don't go your way your army can fall appart fast. Any LD test becomes a potential threat when you're LD 5 or 6.

Yeah, I’m discovering that Goblins outside of 12” are totally random.

:)

Coda, I guess...

So Best Painted was won once again by Luke for his awesome Warriors of Chaos. I had a good chat with him about the old Realm of Chaos time and such. It seems we may have a stunning Bretonnian army to look forward to at some point!

Image

Image

Image

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SpellArcher wrote:
So Best Painted was won once again by Luke for his awesome Warriors of Chaos.

That is an army worthy of the title. It's a riot of color that somehow works together. And the freehand is amazing. Really marvelous.

SpellArcher wrote:
Yeah, I’m discovering that Goblins outside of 12” are totally random.

It can somewhat be mitigated by using lots of items and characters spread around the army. A Goblin big boss with gleaming pennant on a flank can make all the difference. Though even for LD 7 you don't want to be making too many LD tests.

Rod

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
It can somewhat be mitigated by using lots of items and characters spread around the army. A Goblin big boss with gleaming pennant on a flank can make all the difference. Though even for LD 7 you don't want to be making too many LD tests.

It’s a difficult balance Rod. How many points to invest in something that is never that solid. The usual solution I’ve seen seems to be keeping a goblin block fairly central.

Some Orcs:

Image

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SpellArcher wrote:
It’s a difficult balance Rod. How many points to invest in something that is never that solid. The usual solution I’ve seen seems to be keeping a goblin block fairly central.

Actually, the usual solution is to bring savage orcs instead ;) And only use the goblins as chaff and support units. The main problem with bringing no orcs is that you end up with too many units that want to be in general or BSB range. Things like trolls just stop functioning unless they're in range of your general. But also something which should be awe-inspiring like a stubborn arachnarok needs ld help when you start losing combats and have only ld6.

I love the orcs. They feel very "Heroquest" to me. Which brings back some good memories (though I never did get those painted). I really should go dig through my parents attic for that game ;)

Rod

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Prince of Spires wrote:
Actually, the usual solution is to bring savage orcs instead And only use the goblins as chaff and support units.

That's kind of what I meant Rod. For example I've seen a block of Goblins with the Spider Banner for Poison goodness but only as support for the set-up I outlined earlier.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The main problem with bringing no orcs is that you end up with too many units that want to be in general or BSB range.

I agree. All-goblin lists are wildly chaotic.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I love the orcs. They feel very "Heroquest" to me. Which brings back some good memories (though I never did get those painted). I really should go dig through my parents attic for that game

Thanks! I've started the next batch:

Image

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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Actually, the usual solution is to bring savage orcs instead And only use the goblins as chaff and support units.

That's kind of what I meant Rod. For example I've seen a block of Goblins with the Spider Banner for Poison goodness but only as support for the set-up I outlined earlier.

I see some use for units of 5 wolf riders / spider riders. Comparable to a HE eagle in points. And almost as mobile. Yes, only LD 6. But that's not much of a downside if their purpose in the battle is to die a horrible death at whatever unit you want to keep busy. You just need to make sure not to panic other wolf rider units when dying. And you can't count on feigned flight to save the day as you could with reavers.

Spiders are a bit slower and more expensive. But with poison they have a decent chance of actually doing some wounds before dying.
SpellArcher wrote:
All-goblin lists are wildly chaotic.

It's part of the fun ;) And of course, you could bring loads of squigs to at least not suffer from panic tests :)

Rod

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Prince of Spires wrote:
I see some use for units of 5 wolf riders / spider riders. Comparable to a HE eagle in points. And almost as mobile. Yes, only LD 6. But that's not much of a downside if their purpose in the battle is to die a horrible death at whatever unit you want to keep busy. You just need to make sure not to panic other wolf rider units when dying. And you can't count on feigned flight to save the day as you could with reavers.

I don’t think these would hold up against the very strongest opposition. But mine have done quite well so far. The speed is great and the shortbows actually did something. Ld 6 could be an issue if trying to redirect a Terror-causer, though many of those Fly anyway. I guess a musician would leave them rallying on Ld 7, not too bad.

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SpellArcher wrote:
I don’t think these would hold up against the very strongest opposition.

They don't really need to though. Same as a GE. Their main job is to keep stuff busy for a turn. They are there to give you board control. Anything more then that (like a kill here and there) is a bonus.

Perhaps adding in a second unit of wolf riders is a possible improvement to the list. It gives you another fast chaff option and maybe allows for more board controle. Though of course, the question then is what to drop.

Rod

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Prince of Spires wrote:
They don't really need to though. Same as a GE. Their main job is to keep stuff busy for a turn. They are there to give you board control. Anything more then that (like a kill here and there) is a bonus.

I guess I’m doubting the ultimate utility of a Ld 6 vs Panic unit that can be flown over and won’t get a crack at any war machine in a strong list Rod. For my meta though, it’s working fine and will stay.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Perhaps adding in a second unit of wolf riders is a possible improvement to the list. It gives you another fast chaff option and maybe allows for more board controle. Though of course, the question then is what to drop.

I think you’re on to something here. I was going to beef up the Goblins to 30 instead but I far prefer the Wolf Rider models, a key consideration! For now though I’m busy painting Orcs, money for more Wolf Riders will have to wait a little.

The Snotlings have done OK so far as redirectors. They’re slow and don’t kill anything but Unbreakable rocks. However, I’ve remembered a sweet model that’s encouraging me to put in Mangler Squigs instead. These do kill things. I won’t always be able to sneak Beasts of Nurgle into the list!

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I would love to see some manglers in the list. Indeed you need something to fill the gap the beasts leave if you can't get them in. And manglers are threatening and killy enough for the role. Though they probably need to be taken care of a bit better, since you don't really want an eagle or the likes to step on them... Which might mean you need to bring 2 of them ;)

Or a pump wagon of course :)

Bring on the pictures ;)

Rod

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Prince of Spires wrote:
I would love to see some manglers in the list. Indeed you need something to fill the gap the beasts leave if you can't get them in. And manglers are threatening and killy enough for the role. Though they probably need to be taken care of a bit better, since you don't really want an eagle or the likes to step on them... Which might mean you need to bring 2 of them

I suspect elves will be able to deal with them but not all enemies will have such accurate shooting. At worst they die but force the foe to spend time on them and they can inhibit movement. I agree Rod, 2 is the way to go.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Bring on the pictures

Your wish is my command...

Image

This guy’s a little crude but this is a close-up and he’ll look good in his unit.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:08 pm 
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2000pts

Orc Warboss, Silvered Steel, Dawnstone, Ironcurse, Great Weapon
Orc Lvl 4, 4+ Ward, Crown of Command, Power Stone

Black Orc BSB, 4+ Ward Armour
Orc Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring

27 Big 'Uns, Shields, FC, +1 Ld Standard
20 Goblins, FC, Shortbows
5 Wolf Riders, Shortbows
5 Wolf Riders, Shortbows

8 Trolls
4 Snotling Bases
2 Bolt Shooters

2 Mangler Squigs
Stone Thrower

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