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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:22 pm 
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In another thread I ended up with the below
SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
It would make it a very different list though. Where almost the only thing unchanged is the dragon mage. I would buff the SH bus to be bigger (15-ish models I think). Reduce the archers. Drop either the sisters (probably) or the RBT (and increase the sisters to a more formidable size). Drop the eagle, upgrade the phoenix to a frostheart. Bring WL (or perhaps PG) in special. And I would consider dropping the chariot as well. Sounds like a fun list. But very different. Maybe something for my next game

Keen to see this list!

And, as I have a game coming up, I'm happy to oblige.

I'm not sure if I'm playing 2400 or 2500 pts. Though the list shouldn't be too different. The 2500pts list has a few extra models in there.

2400 pts
Lords
Eltharion on Stormwing

Heros
BSB
Barded steed, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone

Dragon mage
Level 2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, luckstone

Core
14 archers
15 Silver Helms, shields, full command
5 Reavers, musician

Special
19 White Lions, full command, Banner of the World Dragon

Rare
Frostheart
2 Repeater Bolt Thrower

Small issue with this list is that it's 1 point over the limit. I'm open to suggestions on what to drop. Something like the luckstone is an obvious candidate. Also, I'd love to hear opinions on the list.

For 2500 I would change the list to:
2500 pts
Lords
Eltharion on Stormwing

Heros
BSB
Barded steed, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone

Dragon mage
Level 2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, luckstone

Core
16 archers
15 Silver Helms, shields, full command
5 Reavers, musician

Special
20 White Lions, full command, Banner of the World Dragon
5 SwordMasters

Rare
Frostheart
2 Repeater Bolt Thrower

So basically, add 2 archers to meet core requirements, a WL to make an even 20 and add a small unit of 5 SM, just because there's points for it. And you can't really go wrong with 10 S5 WS6 attacks. Also, this list is one point under, which means everything can stay in :)

What do you guys think?

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:12 pm 
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That's a lot of combat units Rod. None bring quite the fear factor of a Star Dragon or tooled up Prince Bus but they're all solid. Unusually, they all seem to be pretty self-sufficient too. Shooting's useful and you have Flaming Sword automatically to buff it. The Dragon Mage has good spell selection which frees you up to pick what you please on Eltharion.

As mentioned on the other thread I think you'll miss the Scroll. I'm not sure about the bigger Helm unit. Static Combat Res remains strong with the BSB but not killing power, so I'd worry about fighting Unbreakable or Stubborn stuff. With fewer Helms you're not quite so inclined to take combats on, it's more of a utility unit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:42 am 
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There definitely isn't a star dragon sledge hammer or swiss army knife prince bus in the list. Which probably means it's not the strongest of lists out there. But that wasn't the goal of the list either. I've played star dragon lists and they're great fun. But they're also all about the dragon. And not that well suited for very casual games (especially against weaker army books).

Still, it's a list with 3 terror causing, flying monsters in there. And while individually they perhaps aren't the strongest (though the frostheart rocks of course), they will give people thought. The threat of getting charged by 3 of these should give any infantry unit pause for instance.

For Eltharion I'm thinking either beasts or death as lore (depends on the opponent a bit I think). Beasts has a lot of utility for this list. +1 S / T is great for the weaker monsters (S6 vs S5 is huge). And of the other spells only flock of doom and transformation are useless. On the other hand, savage beast for instance is a game changer in this list.

Death is death. Spirit leech is amazing on a LD 10 character. And the rest of the lore offers a lot of utility to deal with all sorts of stuff. And purple sun on a flying caster is just all sorts of nasty vs some armies. It has the threat level to end battles T2 vs Low I armies.

The dragon mage has a great spell selection with flaming sword and fireball, which are the two spells you want from fire to be honest. The only spell I wouldn't swap is fire cloak, unless I would be up against a horde army with several big units, in which case flame cage can be fun as well. The rest of the lore isn't that amazing, but for the Dragon mage, it doesn't have to be.

The army indeed misses the dispel scroll and doesn't have much dispelling prowess. Which is one of the weaknesses. It has to compensate for that by being really fast and aggressive vs strong magic phases. But yes, this list will suffer vs kitted out Slann lizardmen lists. I'm not facing those however, so that's a worry less. Skaven magic will also give it trouble, which is something I can run in to at times. So I have to be careful there.

How would you change the core selection (in the 2400 pts version)? Reduce the SH unit to 10 and then bring another unit of 5 reavers and two archers? This would incidently also solve the 1 point over issue by being 5 points cheaper. So perhaps it's a good option. It also adds a second redirector to the list. Though not essential given the mobile and flying nature of the list, it's always nice to have and has saved my ass countless times. Interestingly enough, this doesn't fit in the 2500pts list, since it doesn't meet min core. So there I would probably split off 5 SH into a separate unit. Cheap, disposable, but still packing a punch and less likely then reavers to disintegrate in combat vs even the weakest units.

I agree that there's a lot of combat oriented stuff in the list. It's partially a target saturation thing. And also the best way to make the dragon mage work I think. What do you think about the BotWD on the WL unit? I was wondering if 19 / 20 was enough o justify it. I don't doubt it's powerful. But it's also a very expensive item.

I like my units to be (partially) self sufficient. They were in part chosen to be that way. With lots of stuff flying around I can't count on units being in general / bsb range (though they will try to be). And while I prefer to have my units working together, one or two of them are bound to be stranded on their own at one point or another. Being able then to function on your own is a must.

It also makes planning easier. I would much rather have an easy plan then a brilliant but complex one. If too many items need to work together for something to go right then it all starts falling apart when one of those fails for some reason. And I'm sure we've all had a simple charge fail at a crucial time, simply because dice a fickle. For this list, things can then still go ahead, just slightly less effective. At least, that's the plan.

Rod

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PS: Bring cookies!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:48 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Still, it's a list with 3 terror causing, flying monsters in there. And while individually they perhaps aren't the strongest (though the frostheart rocks of course), they will give people thought. The threat of getting charged by 3 of these should give any infantry unit pause for instance.

Essentially Rod, you're strengthening the army vs Infantry while slightly exposing yourself to heavy artillery. Target saturation definitely helps to a degree, though a true gunline might really hurt. You do have 5+ Wards on two guys though.

Prince of Spires wrote:
flock of doom

This can be helpful, chucking it at an artillery piece for example.

Prince of Spires wrote:
purple sun on a flying caster

Can be horrific. Death is rock-solid on Eltharion.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Reduce the SH unit to 10 and then bring another unit of 5 reavers and two archers?

Sounds fine. Might be interesting to try the big Helms just to see though, that much static res might make for a great combo-charge alongside a Monster.

Prince of Spires wrote:
What do you think about the BotWD on the WL unit? I was wondering if 19 / 20 was enough o justify it. I don't doubt it's powerful. But it's also a very expensive item.

I'd never bring Lions without it. Can be done, for example in pure MSU or with an Anointed. But in general the naked unit is too exposed while the Banner can let it get away with crazy things.

I'd still drop the Star Lance for a Scroll, painful though that is or preferably shoe-horn in a Lvl 2 with Scroll on the same Lore as Eltharion.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:14 am 
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The issue with adding in another mage is that he simply doesn't fit. I play 25% lords / hero's (for me the End Times never happened...). Which leaves 1 point in the 2400pts list and 26 in the 2500pts list. In a 3000pts list he would be in there without issue. But now the only way to bring a scroll is to drop something else.

I'm very hesitant to drop the starlance. 2 S3 attacks (combined with 4 S5 attacks) just don't do that much. 2 S6 attacks, which reroll to hit and ignore whatever armour save is left are a daunting prospect for most things without a lot of wounds, ward or high T.

Still, I understand what you're saying about the scroll. Not having it is a big weakness of the list. I'll give it some more thinking to see if I can come up with an idea. I might just try both versions of the list one or two times to see how it goes. Maybe the agression of the list and the BotWD on the WL unit are enough to survive the magic phase.

One good prospect for me at least is that I'm unlikely to face serious gunlines or very magic heavy lists. So while there still could be painful magic phases it's not up to tournament level painful.

I'm leaving the BotWD in then. I don't think I've actually run it in 8th edition. So I'll see how it performs.

I agree that flock of doom has some uses. But it's a very situational spell. It's only really in situations where there is no difference between S2 and S4 that it becomes worth it. It would have been golden in my last battle vs the TK sphinx. 2D6 hits for a 5+ are great vs the T8. You need 6's anyway. So the more dice the merrier. It's potentially a 1 dice spell at the end of your phase if you want.

Rod

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Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
One good prospect for me at least is that I'm unlikely to face serious gunlines or very magic heavy lists. So while there still could be painful magic phases it's not up to tournament level painful.

Exactly Rod, the list should be competitive enough.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I'm leaving the BotWD in then. I don't think I've actually run it in 8th edition. So I'll see how it performs.

The first tourney I took it to was a real eye-opener. Some games it will do nothing. Others it will pull a draw or a win out of nowhere. It's especially necessary on Lions because their 3+ AS vs shooting doesn't hold if said shooting is Magical. Banner of Win laughs at that of course.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I agree that flock of doom has some uses. But it's a very situational spell. It's only really in situations where there is no difference between S2 and S4 that it becomes worth it. It would have been golden in my last battle vs the TK sphinx. 2D6 hits for a 5+ are great vs the T8. You need 6's anyway. So the more dice the merrier. It's potentially a 1 dice spell at the end of your phase if you want.

I think it also depends on the rest of your repertoire. You already have the excellent Fireball which kind of covers that base. If you only had Beasts magic for example, Flock is often necessary simply because it's the only generic Magic Missile.

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