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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:50 pm 
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Hi all,

Here's some thoughts on my list:

I want to achieve a strong magic phase, which I know I will achieve with the MoCT and +3/+3 archmage. In my experience so far, Asfad Scholar is an absolute must on the AM. It lets you cast spells that you'd normally need to cast the boosted version of to have sufficient reach. Getting drain magic as a bound spell is also wonderful. Also, the MoCT with wilderness and alchemy I borrowed from someone else, and it works wonders. +1 T and S on spears is a joy to watch and 1d6 metalshifting is always good to have. And both spells are must-dispel, so it leaves my magic phase very flexible. I'm really happy with this combination.

The 6 x dragon princes + prince delivers 18 S7 on the charge, and usually that means 2+, 2+ with -4 to AS. I am in love with Knights of Ryma and I have been wanting to combine them with a prince for a long time. As a unit, they can deal with everything as long as they get the charge. Not sure if I should go 7 princes instead of the banner in case I loose one or two to shooting before I can engage in battle. The build on the prince is of course up for review. I wanted the dusk stone to capitalize on his 1+ AS.

My personal experience with heavy armor on spears is more or less positive. It makes them potentially, with buff from magic, not only a steadfast unit, but also a unit that can provide a fair fight against most opponents. Having +1S, +1T from Wilderness, and potentially 5++ and -D3 WS to the opponent from white magic (in addition to -1 WS from the sky sloop), it gives quite a few alternatives in how to buff them.

I have tried the sky sloop one game, and the -1 to WS absolutely rocks. It makes guiding hand a must dispel, and you can end up with spears that have +1T and +1S and figthing against opponents that normally have WS 4 now having to roll 5s to hit. If you like to hear your opponent moan, then you should def try it out.

The 3x5 Elein Reavers are basically just redirectors. Maybe, in some games, Vanguard to put pressure on war machines while the rest of the army moves up. I feel this army could need an eagle as well, but I'm not very willing to sacrifce any other of my units. Maybe reduce number of lions and swords?

The Queen's Guard is a bunker for my AM in addition to it being a farily strong shooting unit.

The 2xSGR are there to shoot chaff and maybe put some wounds on monsters.

The sword masters and the lion guards I have not put to much thought into.. I'm not sure whether I should go one big unit of one of them instead of two small ones? Any ideas to this and what might fit the rest of my army?

I am also considering putting bow of elu on my BSP, and having him in a group of, say, 8 GWs. It would be one additional shooting unit that could target chaff as well as scary monsters, but it would mean that I'd have to give up on either the sword masters or the lion guards. Thoughts?

So yeah, I would appreicate any comments to this list.

Lords:
- Archmage, lv 4 (305 pts)
Honour:Asfad Scholar
Items: Book of Arcane Power

- High Prince (275 pts) - The General
Honour:Prince of Ryma
Mount: Elven Horse
Items: Dragon Forged Armor, Dragonscale Helm, shield, Dusk Stone, Ogre Sword

Heroes:
- Commander (230 pts) - BSP
Honour:MoCT (wilderness and alchemy)
Items:ToGS, Mithril Mail, Halberd, Longbow

Core:
- 31 x Citizen Spears: Heavy Armour, FC, War Banner (341 pts)
- 3 x 5 Elein Reavers: Bow (3x90=270pts)

Special:
- 6 x Knights of Ryma: FC, DC, Banner of Ryma (252 pts)
- 12 x Lion Guards: Ch, St (168 pts)
- 14 x Sword Masters: Ch, St (198 pts)

Rare:
- 7 x Queen's Guards:Mus, Longbow (115 pts)
- 2 x SGR: Repeating Shoots (2x80=160 pts)
- 1 x Sky Sloop: Aldan Warhorn (170 pts)

2499 / 2500 pts


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:09 pm 
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I like the feel of it.

First question would be...will you miss a Dispel Scroll espn? Otherwise the magic looks good. In 8th edition, you want Giant Blade on that Prince every time because S7 makes a big difference vs Monsters and armour. I'd imagine the same logic holds in 9th Age unless I'm missing something?

Core looks decent. I would go for more Knights because lose even three say, to shooting or magic and the Prince starts feeling a bit exposed, especially without a Ward save. If so you might consider dropping Devastating Charge because if five or six wide and two deep with the Prince say, only four or five models would benefit. You could drop the Lion Guards maybe. Your shooting is helpful but spare points to add to the Queen's Guard could be handy, especially if you use these as a bunker too.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:07 am 
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in 9th 1+ and T6+ isn't that common so ogre sword does work good enough :)

I am not sold on small QG and KoR though. Looks like there is enough points for a larger KoR unit for the Prince if you drop the girls... Spears are a decent block to protect the AM

I like mmu over msu and would drop SMs. LG are more resilient to shooting and always a threat to big nasties. Just watch out stomps :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:06 pm 
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I've always felt that spears were outperformed by Sea Guard, especially as a magebunker. Normally, you don't want your bunker in combat, especially with a L4 with no ward save. Bunkering in a close combat unit feels like a bit of a waste. Archers would be better, but Sea Guard are the best, especially in 9th. Bows mean they aren't being wasted every turn they aren't in combat. Yet at the same time, spears in 9th are somewhat of a deterrent for enemy chargers. Charging a unit that stand and shoots, then attacks in 4 ranks with AP(1), and Lethal Strike vs Monstrous/Monsters, coupled with HBE Martial Discipline and +1 to hit from Lightning Reflexes and slightly higher Initiative, and that is now a unit you don't want to charge.

Every single one of my 2500 lists has the following Core:

30 Sea guard, Full Command, Veteran Standard, Banner of Courage
5 Reavers, Musician, MP(5+), Bows
5 Reavers, Musician, MP(5+), Bows

Comes out to exactly 625, 25%.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:22 pm 
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First of all, thank you all for taking the time to comment.

Quote:
Every single one of my 2500 lists has the following Core:

30 Sea guard, Full Command, Veteran Standard, Banner of Courage
5 Reavers, Musician, MP(5+), Bows
5 Reavers, Musician, MP(5+), Bows


It's definitly a solid core option, and 30 extra bow shots are of course not a bad "extra" thing to have. But at the same time, I think it limits you in some ways. First, you only have M5 each round if you are two use the bow. Second, 4+ AS on spears means that they will suffer less against shooting and magic that hit entire units. Personally, I feel I can justify leaving out flame wardens when I have 4+ spears as well because they have the same "role" in my army. Lastly, in my case, the 3x elein reavers are the only redirections I have in this army, and I don't feel I can reduce it to 2 (without bringing in an eagle).

In either case, I am def not comfortable with having my mage in a close combat unit (without the 2++), as he'll most certainly die in two turns, if not 1, if that unit is engaged in combat.

Quote:
First question would be...will you miss a Dispel Scroll espn? Otherwise the magic looks good.


Hehe, I think you'll always miss it if you don't have it. It's just that I feel that an arch mage without +3/+3 or another powerful arcane item is simply not worth it, so I can't have the dispell scroll on him. I could have it on my BSP, but that would leave him without 5++, so with only 2 wounds, I don't really feel like bringing him into combat. Currently, I am considering either to give my dispel scroll to the MoCT (def version) OR to put a wizard's hood on a queen's commander (more aggressive version) which I saw someone had done over at the 9th age forum. I feel the build is brilliant and cheap (90 pts cheaper than MoCT). But, you loose the dispell scroll, and you could end up with horrible spells, so it is definitly a gamble. I feel that's what you pay 90 pts extra for in the MoCT.

Quote:
In 8th edition, you want Giant Blade on that Prince every time because S7 makes a big difference vs Monsters and armour. I'd imagine the same logic holds in 9th Age unless I'm missing something?

I will try to squeece it in. It tried the prince the other night, and although you survive with S6, S7 is worth the extra 20 pts.

I also agree on the KoR and girls being too small so'll try and find a way to increase their numbers.

In general, what's your thought on MSU in 9th? Whenever I have a small unit (like 10-12 sword masters), my experience is that HBE are no longer that supperior in the movement phase to guarantee that you can engage in combat on your terms. I usually have best experience with larger units that can, if it comes to that, survive at least one round of combat on their own. Typ 20 FWs, 20 LGs, 20 SMs etc. That being said, when ever I succeed with smaller units, I usually have a speed banner such that I can position them so I am more certain to get the charge. For example 10-12 skirmish lion guards with speed banner I've found extremely powerful. But without the speedbanner (or skirmish)?...meh...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:50 pm 
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espn wrote:
I could have it on my BSP, but that would leave him without 5++, so with only 2 wounds, I don't really feel like bringing him into combat.

Good point, you probably have to choose between this guy being a fighter (with full defensive kit) or a support character who largely avoids combat.

espn wrote:
I will try to squeece it in. It tried the prince the other night, and although you survive with S6, S7 is worth the extra 20 pts.

I take matrim's point about 9th Age presenting fewer tank targets but I still feel S7 is worth having against T5 Monsters and 2+ AS MonCav for example. What it really boils down to for me though, is that nothing else in the list is good at killing enemy characters and the Prince definitely wants S7 for that, especially with Dusk Stone freely available.

When you use MSU espn, how many units do you generally have in your army?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:06 pm 
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There's a discussion on CavPrince builds here - I tried to comprehensively cover the most likely best options: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php? ... ce-builds/

I'm not 100% convinced by the two small elite infantry units - I'd probably combine them into a single unit. Seperate they look vulnerable, and you've invested too much in characters to have points available for MSU envelopment tactics IMO. Together, it is another threatening block to complement your core.

BSB - personally I fear combat with foot builds which aren't teh warden, so I'd be inclined to take the scroll and dump the armour, although that changes the playstyle so might not work for you. Also, maybe I'm too wussy :P!

I'm not sure 7QG is enough - if they weren't also a bunker I'd be tempted to switch them for another RBT...but I haven't used them since a few editions ago, so not sure. Alternatively, I'd be tempted to bump numbers up a little if poss.

Number of knights is I think a perennial question for us now, and IMO shows balance is right. 2x5 naked seem cool. 1x7/8 with FC and banner wreck face. Both options are viable. 6 is IMO a touch small for your main combat block though, not because it won't wreck face, but because you likely won't have 6 make it into combat.

Also, don't forget you can deploy your cav prince seperate to them and use him as an independent unit if the match up is right.

Ferny :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:08 pm 
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espn wrote:
It's definitly a solid core option, and 30 extra bow shots are of course not a bad "extra" thing to have. But at the same time, I think it limits you in some ways. First, you only have M5 each round if you are two use the bow. Second, 4+ AS on spears means that they will suffer less against shooting and magic that hit entire units. Personally, I feel I can justify leaving out flame wardens when I have 4+ spears as well because they have the same "role" in my army. Lastly, in my case, the 3x elein reavers are the only redirections I have in this army, and I don't feel I can reduce it to 2 (without bringing in an eagle).

In either case, I am def not comfortable with having my mage in a close combat unit (without the 2++), as he'll most certainly die in two turns, if not 1, if that unit is engaged in combat.
Holy crap. I didn't even notice Spears can take Heavy Armour. That changes their usefulness a bit.

I do still stand by Sea Guard as a mage bunker over Spears, but I think it depends heavily upon what Lore the wizard is going with. While Spears might have an advantage armour-wise, Sea Guard have that stand and shoot ability, as well as the ability to earn some points during the turns they aren't in combat, which can be especially crucial to get that pesky enemy redirector/harasser out of the way. If the wizard has a more defensive Lore, I could see Sea Guard taking the cake as a bunker. My biggest worry is you have no defense on your L4, unless you intend on taking Nature to get that 5++(4++) Regen save. So regardless of which unit you take (Spears of Sea Guard), your caster is going to die in combat without a ward save. The M5 doesn't really limit the unit. All elf infantry is M5. Most armies are 24" apart. All you have to do is move forward a tad to get into range for shooting, then they have to cross the field for two turns while taking fire. It's the versatility that I like about Sea Guard. Though now I see Spears being useful with a 4+ armour.

I agree that we need redirectors, and I understand why you have three groups of Reavers. I always take two groups of Reavers and two Eagles to control the Movement phase. If you don't take Eagles, then ya, more Reavers the better.

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thelordcal wrote:
Or he uses his big a$$ banner pole as a great weapon...
wisetiger7 wrote:
That's what she said.
Asurion Whitestar wrote:
I would normally delete such an off topic post, but this is just too good. Classic..!! :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:12 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
There's a discussion on CavPrince builds here - I tried to comprehensively cover the most likely best options: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php? ... ce-builds/


Many interesting builds. I really like the dusk stone, hardened shield, +3S sword. At the same time.... What's the reason for having a prince on elven horse instead of having a huntsman for the same price?

The huntsman's advantages: MWs, +1W, +1T, +2 MW WS5 S6 attacks (Crew), +4 WS5 S5 attacks (lions), d6+1 S5 impact hits and 4++ instead of 6++.

The prince's advantages:: +1 to hit, possible A5 S8 on the charge (pretty awesome, I must admit) ability to march, smaller model.

Are there some other advantages to the prince that I have overlooked? Personally, I feel that our Huntsman is the best CC Character that HBE can muster at the moment (at that price).

wisetiger7 wrote:
All elf infantry is M5. Most armies are 24" apart. All you have to do is move forward a tad to get into range for shooting, then they have to cross the field for two turns while taking fire. It's the versatility that I like about Sea Guard. Though now I see Spears being useful with a 4+ armour.


Yes, you are right. My point was that you can't march (M10) if you are to shoot with the bow. I an army where you have more shooting than your opponent, that is of course not a problem. And in an army like that, I'd also probaly prefer the sea guards. But if you face a proper gunline where your opponent just waits for you, and you don't have that much shooting, then you're usually left with no other option than to march. Also, the usefulness of stand and shoot is also very match dependent. Against T4 with a proper armor save (say 4+), it doesn't really do much. This means, I think, that whether you choose spears or sea guards really depend on the rest of your army. In a list with little shooting, I don't think sea guards are preferable over spears.

That being said, I totally agree with the usefulness of 25-30 shots that can be directed at chaff. It's plain awesome.

Ferny wrote:
I'm not 100% convinced by the two small elite infantry units - I'd probably combine them into a single unit. Seperate they look vulnerable, and you've invested too much in characters to have points available for MSU


Spellarcher wrote:
When you use MSU espn, how many units do you generally have in your army?


I see that I have probably mis-used "MSU". I have not yet played a pure MSU army, and it wasn't really MSU I wanted to discuss. What I meant, was units of 10-12 Sword Masters/Lion Guards etc as support units to bigger blocks. In my head, when setting up army lists, I envision these units hitting the flanks of the opponent while my spears or flame wardens are in the front. But in my experience, actually being able to manouvre to the flank and getting the combo charge with these units, without any kind of speed boost like banners, is difficult. What's your thoughts on this? In what kind of armies are support units of 10-12 Sword Masters and Lion Guards a valid option compared to blocks of typ. 20 models?

Ferny wrote:
Number of knights is I think a perennial question for us now, and IMO shows balance is right. 2x5 naked seem cool. 1x7/8 with FC and banner wreck face. Both options are viable. 6 is IMO a touch small for your main combat block though, not because it won't wreck face, but because you likely won't have 6 make it into combat.

Also, don't forget you can deploy your cav prince seperate to them and use him as an independent unit if the match up is right.



Having one file of KoR with +1 attack on the charge makes most sense, to me at least. I think that devastaing charge is what makes KoR such a great unit after all. Even with, lets say, only 4 KoR to make it, I'd still have 11 S7 attacks + 5 S8 attacks from the prince. It would be enough to wreck face (I liked that formulation :P). Maybe 7 of them is enough, in addition to the prince?

Won't placing my prince outside the unit make him terribly exposed to magic and shooting? I see you write "if the match up is right"? Do you have any examples for this where doing so could be a good idea?


After giving it some thought, I ended up with the below list. I put the dispel scroll on my MoCT afterall because he's not bringing that much to combat anyway. I also included some archers for extra shooting (and bunker for my mage). I ended up changing my spears with sea guards because I felt they were a better fit in this list (with the extra shooting). Because this unit is more expensive, I couldn't afford multiple shots on my SGRs. I now intend to have them shooting at bigger and nastier things. 30 sea guards, 11 QGs, 14 archers and 5 elein reavers should be enough to clear small units of chaff.

Arternatively to this, I COULD buy the 2++ for my mage, drop the QGs, have 3 SGRs with MP and be left with 20 extra points.

Lords - 590
Archmage - 305
+Asfad Scholar
+Book of Arcane Power

Prince - 285 (General)
+Prince of Ryma
+Elven Horse
+Dusk Stone
+Giant Sword
+Hardened Shield
+Dragonforged Armor

Heroes - 214
Commander - 214 (BSP)
+Master of Canreig Tower (wilderness, alchemy)
+Dispel Scroll
+Longbow
+Shield
+Heavy Armor

Core - 631
14 x Archers - 146
+Mus
+St

5 x Elein Reavers - 90
+Bow

30 x Sea Guards - 395
+FC
+Gleaming Icon

Special - 646
7 x Knights of Ryma - 284
+FC
+War Banner of Ryma
+Devastating Charge

Lion Chariot - 100

19 x Lion Guards (276)
+FC

Rare - 405
2 x Giant Eagles - 100

11 x Queens Guards - 185
+Longbow
+Mus
+St

2 x Sea Guard Reaper - 120

2500/2500


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:28 pm 
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espn wrote:
Are there some other advantages to the prince that I have overlooked?

His unit. The Chariot dude is good but mostly solo. The unit gives the Prince a lot of protection from shooting/magic, very useful static combat res and extra punch.

espn wrote:
I envision these units hitting the flanks of the opponent while my spears or flame wardens are in the front.

This is a bit ambitious with M5 infantry. As discussed with Ferny, it becomes more feasible when you have an MSU army as such, with lots of units to win deployment and the movement phase. In a more MMU-ish list small Lions look fragile to me. Small swords I like better because Initiative 6 means they put damage on most enemies before these strike.

espn wrote:
After giving it some thought, I ended up with the below list.

I like the shooting but not the Lions because they're not reliably Stubborn. The Knights are still a bit small for protecting a guy who wants to be heading straight for the enemy. I would go for repeaters, even at the expense of the QG because the range and flexibility are great. You'd still have a bunkering issue though I guess.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:00 pm 
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espn wrote:
Ferny wrote:
There's a discussion on CavPrince builds here - I tried to comprehensively cover the most likely best options: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php? ... ce-builds/


Many interesting builds. I really like the dusk stone, hardened shield, +3S sword. At the same time.... What's the reason for having a prince on elven horse instead of having a huntsman for the same price?

The huntsman's advantages: MWs, +1W, +1T, +2 MW WS5 S6 attacks (Crew), +4 WS5 S5 attacks (lions), d6+1 S5 impact hits and 4++ instead of 6++.

The prince's advantages:: +1 to hit, possible A5 S8 on the charge (pretty awesome, I must admit) ability to march, smaller model.

Are there some other advantages to the prince that I have overlooked? Personally, I feel that our Huntsman is the best CC Character that HBE can muster at the moment (at that price).

wisetiger7 wrote:
All elf infantry is M5. Most armies are 24" apart. All you have to do is move forward a tad to get into range for shooting, then they have to cross the field for two turns while taking fire. It's the versatility that I like about Sea Guard. Though now I see Spears being useful with a 4+ armour.


Yes, you are right. My point was that you can't march (M10) if you are to shoot with the bow. I an army where you have more shooting than your opponent, that is of course not a problem. And in an army like that, I'd also probaly prefer the sea guards. But if you face a proper gunline where your opponent just waits for you, and you don't have that much shooting, then you're usually left with no other option than to march. Also, the usefulness of stand and shoot is also very match dependent. Against T4 with a proper armor save (say 4+), it doesn't really do much. This means, I think, that whether you choose spears or sea guards really depend on the rest of your army. In a list with little shooting, I don't think sea guards are preferable over spears.

That being said, I totally agree with the usefulness of 25-30 shots that can be directed at chaff. It's plain awesome.

Ferny wrote:
I'm not 100% convinced by the two small elite infantry units - I'd probably combine them into a single unit. Seperate they look vulnerable, and you've invested too much in characters to have points available for MSU


Spellarcher wrote:
When you use MSU espn, how many units do you generally have in your army?


I see that I have probably mis-used "MSU". I have not yet played a pure MSU army, and it wasn't really MSU I wanted to discuss. What I meant, was units of 10-12 Sword Masters/Lion Guards etc as support units to bigger blocks. In my head, when setting up army lists, I envision these units hitting the flanks of the opponent while my spears or flame wardens are in the front. But in my experience, actually being able to manouvre to the flank and getting the combo charge with these units, without any kind of speed boost like banners, is difficult. What's your thoughts on this? In what kind of armies are support units of 10-12 Sword Masters and Lion Guards a valid option compared to blocks of typ. 20 models?

Ferny wrote:
Number of knights is I think a perennial question for us now, and IMO shows balance is right. 2x5 naked seem cool. 1x7/8 with FC and banner wreck face. Both options are viable. 6 is IMO a touch small for your main combat block though, not because it won't wreck face, but because you likely won't have 6 make it into combat.

Also, don't forget you can deploy your cav prince seperate to them and use him as an independent unit if the match up is right.



Having one file of KoR with +1 attack on the charge makes most sense, to me at least. I think that devastaing charge is what makes KoR such a great unit after all. Even with, lets say, only 4 KoR to make it, I'd still have 11 S7 attacks + 5 S8 attacks from the prince. It would be enough to wreck face (I liked that formulation :P). Maybe 7 of them is enough, in addition to the prince?

Won't placing my prince outside the unit make him terribly exposed to magic and shooting? I see you write "if the match up is right"? Do you have any examples for this where doing so could be a good idea?


After giving it some thought, I ended up with the below list. I put the dispel scroll on my MoCT afterall because he's not bringing that much to combat anyway. I also included some archers for extra shooting (and bunker for my mage). I ended up changing my spears with sea guards because I felt they were a better fit in this list (with the extra shooting). Because this unit is more expensive, I couldn't afford multiple shots on my SGRs. I now intend to have them shooting at bigger and nastier things. 30 sea guards, 11 QGs, 14 archers and 5 elein reavers should be enough to clear small units of chaff.

Arternatively to this, I COULD buy the 2++ for my mage, drop the QGs, have 3 SGRs with MP and be left with 20 extra points.

Lords - 590
Archmage - 305
+Asfad Scholar
+Book of Arcane Power

Prince - 285 (General)
+Prince of Ryma
+Elven Horse
+Dusk Stone
+Giant Sword
+Hardened Shield
+Dragonforged Armor

Heroes - 214
Commander - 214 (BSP)
+Master of Canreig Tower (wilderness, alchemy)
+Dispel Scroll
+Longbow
+Shield
+Heavy Armor

Core - 631
14 x Archers - 146
+Mus
+St

5 x Elein Reavers - 90
+Bow

30 x Sea Guards - 395
+FC
+Gleaming Icon

Special - 646
7 x Knights of Ryma - 284
+FC
+War Banner of Ryma
+Devastating Charge

Lion Chariot - 100

19 x Lion Guards (276)
+FC

Rare - 405
2 x Giant Eagles - 100

11 x Queens Guards - 185
+Longbow
+Mus
+St

2 x Sea Guard Reaper - 120

2500/2500


Try to find points for that 15" marchmove distance. I think your lions will like it.

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