Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:10 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:01 am
Posts: 17
Hi,

Just started playing 9th edition. Last time I played warhammer was 6th edition, so it's been a while. I want to make a close combat army list that should have hard hitters and also be mobile enough not to be easily outmanouvered. I've tried more shooty lists with magic in the past, but I feel that shooting and magic is not nearly as powerful as it were before.

List is as follows:

Lords:
-High Prince on Ancient Dragon (General): Halberd (495)
-Arch Mage (white magic):Asfad Scholar, Gleaming Robe and Dispell scroll (335)
Will be placed with the spearmen

Heroes:
-Commander (BSP):Mithril Mail, Halberd (128)
Will be placed with the Lion Guards

Core:
-31 x Spearmen:Heavy armor, FC, War Banner (356)
-2 x 5 Lancers: MP(5+), Champion, Musician (135 each)

Special:
-6 x Knights of Ryma: FC, DC (220)
-20 x Lion Guards: FC (290)
-12 x Sword Masters: FC (184)

Rare:
-1 x Giant Eagle (50)
-1 x Sky Sloop: Aldan Warhorn (170)

2500/2500

What I really like about this list so far is:

- Prince on ancient dragon absolutely rips every single opponent apart, and the T7 is such as welcome change to the usual T3 that I cant have an army without it.
-I've also grown very fond of 6 x Dragon Princes as they are devistating on the charge.
-Stubborn lion guards

What I am not really satisfied with/unsure about:

-Earlier, this list included 20 x Flame Wardens, but I felt that they are mostly good at taking damage rather than dealing any damage them selves. I already have a block of 31 spearmen and 20 stubborn lion guards, so didn't really feel that they were needed. So I did some small modifications and added the Sky Sloop, which I haven't tried to play with yet. But against WS3 units, then the Aldan Warhorn sounds promising as most of my units are WS5. Still sounds a bit expencive, so let us see.

-Especially, I am unsure about if a level 4 wizard is needed in an army like this. At least, so far, he's been very ineffective and I feel that maybe those points could be used elsewhere. Could be that a LVL 2 is enough? Or maybe another path than white magic would be better suited for this army type? Suggestions?

-I feel that my two biggest blocks, the spearmen and lion guards, can quite easily be outmanouvered against good opposition, altohugh it has not happened yet. Should I invest in speed banners?

I will appreciate any comments on how to make this list better and if there are any clear weaknesses.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:25 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12325
Location: Otherworld
Hi espn

I'm not really up speed with the 9th Age meta but:

1) Lords look OK but is it worth considering a magic item on the Dragonlord, maybe defensive?

2) Mithril Mail is helpful but might not be enough defence if the BSB will see combat.

3) Is 20 Lions enough? If they don't go 10-wide they can't all attack. Also Stubborn mostly depends on the BSB staying alive which might be a problem.

4) I've seen other players question the utility of the lvl4, I guess because magic is toned down compared to 8th edition. The obvious thing is, he does give you good spell selection. Under that ruleset, High Magic was often an excellent choice for a Dragon list because of movement spells, healing, etc.. The 9th Age equivalent looks generally useful and the one time I used it, it was excellent but the attribute is not as good as under 8th.

5) I feel a little shooting is always helpful, if only to remove redirectors.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:54 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6914
Location: The city of Spires
I mostly agree with SA. Some considerations:

- The lvl 4 is a difficult choice. Part of the consideration is, what would you get with the points you save? It's something like 100-ish points. Can those be more effective elsewhere? Also, what is not working magic wise? Is it that you often don't have the right spells to cast (in which case a different lore could be the answer)? Or that you never get the spells cast (in which case actually investing more in magic could be an answer)? Or that the spells you cast don't have enough effect to be worth the points?

Less magic could be an option. If your list is aggressive enough to compensate for the lack of magic then it's not a problem. It also depends on play style a bit. In general, you can't be good at everything, so it can pay to specialize a bit.

- Shooting I agree with SA on. Some shooting can be beneficial. For instance, if you run into a list with 3 or so redirectors, you can quickly find your dragon stranded on its own while the rest of your army is being delayed. And while a dragon kicks some serious butt, it can't win the game by itself. Some simple shooting can help there.

- About flame wardens vs lion guard. It's probably a preferred playstyle thing. FW are more tanky, which can be a benefit in your list, since you already have some serious offence. On the other hand, overwhelming force is also great and can help decide a battle quickly. Personally I would go for the FW, but that's because they really fit my playstyle. I like that they are a unit I can depend on to hold the line if needed while the dragon (and knights) deal with the rest of the enemy elsewhere. But it's hard to say if they are the right choice for you. Play a few games and see what you like (and let us know, I'd like to know as well).

- Speed banners I'm personally not a big fan of. In general I feel that for HE, they offer not enough benefit for the cost. HE are already fast compared to other races, the points are better invested somewhere else. Either more bodies or something that helps them survive better.

In my experience the best way to prevent being outmaneuvered is to have enough mobile units so you are more flexible then your opponent, to have good threat projection and to have enough redirectors. Redirectors help dictate the flow of the battle (I go with roughly 1 per 1000pts, though I play 8th mainly, so YMMV) and prevent being outmaneuvered. Threat projection mean your opponent can't just place units somewhere where they would get in the way.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:01 am
Posts: 17
Thank you both for your replies.

After a battle, I'm generally left with the feeling that my magic achieved very little. I am sure there are a number of reasons, the main ones being: 1) I am probably playing out my magic phase badly and 2) I have a tendency to roll very low on the magic flux when it matters. So I usually get one spell off each round if I am lucky. And the ones I get off are also usually not the spell that I really wanted to go thru in the first place, and have little effect.

On the other hand, giving it some thought, I don't save that much (as you said) on going down two levels. If I am unlucky on my spell roll, I will not only have a non-existent shooting phase, but also have a poor magic phase. That's 2 out of 4 phases. I think I will continue to give the level 4 wizard before I make up my mind, and try to pay better attention to how I play my magic phase. Also, +2 to dispel over +1 is a lot of difference when I think about it. With this in mind, I decided to mount him on horse and put him with the Elein Reavers (added unit). This way I think he becomes more flexible so I can put him to use all over the board. I'm excited to see how it will fare.

More shooting is probably sensible - even preferable maybe to add balance, which I know this list lacks. I'm not really a fan of archers, and this being a close combat list, adding shooting with punch (like QGs and BTs) is too expensive. It might be after playing this list a couple of times, that I see being this "close-combatty" with high elves is un-realistic, but I still want to give it a try. Also, if my sky sloop does not live up to its 170 points, then I will probably invest that in more shooting. Anyhow, as you'll see in my revised list, I've added 2 x 5 units of reavers with bow. I feel with that, the silver helms, and the eagle, that I should have enough to handle "the chaff wars".

On lion guards vs FWs: I will definitly change between them with this army. At the moment, FWs are 4p more expensive than LGs, and with the BSP in the unit (I gave him 5+WS), I think they can hold out some rounds, should they be in an unfavourable fight. I usually have the LGs in rows of 6 and the FWs in rows of 5. I will write something in this thread once I've tested them in a few games to see how they fulfill this role.

I have played with the ancient dragon quite a few times already, and my experience is that he is very tough to kill with the T7 and W7. There are also very few defensive items I can actually give him because he is a ridden monster. I might give him the lucky shield if I know I am facing cannons. It's always tempting to give the prince, for example, giant sword, but my experience is that it is not really needed. I already have 6 S7 attacks and 4 S5 attacks with lightning reflexes (and stomp and breath weapon). So my conclusion, at least, is that the points are better spent elsewhere (he's already at 500 p). My Sky Sloop is also part of the plan here. If I manage to keep him alive, it will (usually) be 5+ and 6+ to hurt my dragon prince in close combat.

I gave my BSP 5+ WS.

The revised list is then:

Lords:
-High Prince on Ancient Dragon (General): Halberd, Lucky Shield (500)
-Arch Mage on Elven Horse (White or Light magic):Asfad Scholar and Dispell scroll (310)
Will be placed with the Elein Reavers

Heroes:
-Commander (BSP):Mithril Mail, Halberd, Talisman of Greater Shielding (153)
Will be placed with the Lion Guards

Core:
-25 x Spearmen:Heavy armor, FC, War Banner (290)
-5 Lancers: MP(5+), champion, Musician (135)
-2 x 5 Elein Reavers: MP(5+), Musician, Bow (115 each)

Special:
-6 x Knights of Ryma: FC, DC (220)
-20 x Lion Guards: FC (290)
-10 x Sword Masters: Musician (150)

Rare:
-1 x Giant Eagle (50)
-1 x Sky Sloop: Aldan Warhorn (170)

2500/2500


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:01 am
Posts: 17
...and my l list with Flame Wardens instead of Lion Guards would be:

Lords:
-High Prince on Ancient Dragon (General): Halberd, Lucky Shield (500)
-Arch Mage on Elven Horse (White or Light magic):Asfad Scholar and Dispell scroll (310)
Will be placed with the Elein Reavers

Heroes:
-Commander (Royal Huntsman) on Lion Chariot (BSP): Lion's Fur, Heavy Armor, MP(5+), Great Weapon, Dragon Scale Helm and Talisman of Greater Shielding (153)

Core:
-25 x Spearmen:Heavy armor, FC (275)
-5 Lancers: MP(5+), champion, Musician (135)
-2 x 5 Elein Reavers: MP(5+), Musician, Bow (115 each)

Special:
-6 x Knights of Ryma: FC, DC (220)
-20 x Flame Wardens: FC, Rending Banner (360)

Rare:
-1 x Giant Eagle (50)
-1 x Sky Sloop: Aldan Warhorn (170)

2500/2500


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:07 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12325
Location: Otherworld
espn wrote:
So I usually get one spell off each round if I am lucky.

In 8th edition at least, one spell off per round is typical and the opponent can generally choose one turn to prevent even this, with Dispel Scroll.

espn wrote:
And the ones I get off are also usually not the spell that I really wanted to go thru in the first place, and have little effect.

That's the difference with 9th Age I think. It's much harder to force through the spell of your choice. The classic answer to this is to have a strong repertoire of spells such that most of them are unpleasant for the enemy. The Path you're using espn can suffer from that, not having effective spells always available. Which enemies do you mostly fight? One issue is that the spell which boosts BS is no good here because of the lack of shooting. Having your caster in the right place is of course crucial and the extra range from Asfad Scholar helps. I'm not sure the Reavers will provide enough protection though.

Your wizard is giving you +1 to Channel, +2 to Dispel, four spells, +2 to cast plus the Arcane Item slot. I fully agree that your magic offence suffers if you cut to level 2. In a way you are primarily paying for the defence and only then for the spellcasting. But you often find that armies low on shooting invest a lot in magic to make up for this.

A standard on the Lancers could be a good idea to make them a scoring unit. I have to say I prefer the list with the Flame Wardens and Chariot BSB, looks more solid.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:01 am
Posts: 17
I have to thank you once again for your good comments.

SpellArcher wrote:
The Path you're using espn can suffer from that, not having effective spells always available.

Choosing a path is something I am still struggeling with. I guess I will use the next couple of games experinating. Nature is one path that I am looking at, although not getting the oaken throne would be a disaster. I could chose the "Tome of Arcane Lore" to get 5 spells, but that would mean dropping the dispel scroll... Tough calls..

SpellArcher wrote:
I'm not sure the Reavers will provide enough protection though.

I am aware. But this time I don't have a bunker for him (like a archer unit), and I wanted to try something different from my usual ethereal robe and putting him with the spearmen - which is what I usually do. If they manage to shoot at the unit, they will still have to distribute the hits equally, and I hope that being so mobile will not give them many chances to shoot at me. And I really wanted to use my mage on horse model which I still have not used :p Not a very good reason, I know. But let's see.

SpellArcher wrote:
A standard on the Lancers could be a good idea to make them a scoring unit. I have to say I prefer the list with the Flame Wardens and Chariot BSB, looks more solid.

Good suggestion. I think I'll do that. And yes, I feel the same. This is the list I will try out next time I have a chance to play.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:13 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12325
Location: Otherworld
espn wrote:
I have to thank you once again for your good comments.

You're welcome espn.

espn wrote:
Choosing a path is something I am still struggeling with.

I found White Magic very effective vs Sylvan Elves. But maybe not vs some armies? It seemed to work well with my solid shooting phase.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:53 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6914
Location: The city of Spires
SpellArcher wrote:
espn wrote:
Choosing a path is something I am still struggeling with.

I found White Magic very effective vs Sylvan Elves. But maybe not vs some armies? It seemed to work well with my solid shooting phase.

There are two ways I go about choosing a path. One is that I pick a path (because I like the spells or playstyle it offers) and build a list around that. The other is that I look at my list and see what I'm missing or what I can do to multiply the effects of my list. This second way is more common for me since I usually play magic light. Building a magic heavy list for me normally starts with option one, since magic is the real focus in that type of list.

For option two (which is more applicable here, since you already have a list), I look for a few things. As said, I'm either trying to fill gaps in my list or use magic as a force multiplier. But, with both these things, magic is there as support. It's there to help you break a unit on the charge instead of after an extra round of combat, to remove that redirector or annoying shooting unit. If you really must get a specific spell cast to win then you're in trouble.

The other thing is redundancy. If you have a single useful spell to cast, then your opponent has an easy time prioritizing dispelling. As SA mentions and you found out yourself, you usually get 1 spell cast in a magic phase. So it had better count. And the more bad choices your opponent has, the better it is. Simple example, your opponent has a redirector you really have to get rid of. If you only have a single magic missile then it's pretty obvious what your opponent has to dispel. However, if you have 3, then your opponent will eat one of them, whether he likes it or not.

And this goes for all magic. If you only have a S buff, then your opponent is bound to dispel that in a big combat phase. If you have both a S buff and a T hex, then it's not that easy. This is also why it helps to have a big threat in your magic phase. If you have a must dispel spell, then your opponent will save dice for that, letting through smaller spells. You don't even have to cast the big spell. It just needs to be there as a threat.

A surprising solution then could actually be to invest more points in magic. A simple lvl 1 or 2 mage with a strong default spell can suddenly give your opponent a lot of bad choices. It's why I liked bringing a lvl 1 metal mage in 8th ed. A very strong default spell that handles a specific situation (heavily armoured units) and cheap enough that I don't mind losing him to a miscast.

Rod.

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:30 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12325
Location: Otherworld
Agree with most of that.

Prince of Spires wrote:
If you have a must dispel spell, then your opponent will save dice for that, letting through smaller spells

It's a classic strategy. Also sometimes you don't need multiples of the same kind of spell, so long as the varied spells you have can be cast most turns and each depended on to cause problems for the enemy. It's about leaving him with a choice of evils.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:10 pm 
Offline
9th Age Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm
Posts: 1906
Sorry I'm late to the party - I'll respond to the first post first and work through!

espn wrote:
Hi,
Just started playing 9th edition. Last time I played warhammer was 6th edition, so it's been a while. I want to make a close combat army list that should have hard hitters and also be mobile enough not to be easily outmanouvered. I've tried more shooty lists with magic in the past, but I feel that shooting and magic is not nearly as powerful as it were before.

List is as follows:

Lords:
-High Prince on Ancient Dragon (General): Halberd (495)
dragon riders don't necessarily need kit because you can't add ordinary wards or armour to the dragon, but you might want a lucky shield, the 4++ one use only item, or (perhaps) +3S sword. But for a cheap and chearful AD, this guy does it.


-Arch Mage (white magic):Asfad Scholar, Gleaming Robe and Dispell scroll (335)
Will be placed with the spearmen

Heroes:
-Commander (BSP):Mithril Mail, Halberd (128)
Will be placed with the Lion Guards
I'd consider giving him 5++ too if you're plannign for him to be in a combat block, which makes sesnse if you're after bodyguard

Core:
-31 x Spearmen:Heavy armor, FC, War Banner (356)
-2 x 5 Lancers: MP(5+), Champion, Musician (135 each)
Core looks solid. There's a lot of debate about whether heavy armour is worth it or not (when compared to more bodies) for spears. Verdict is out still. I'd be tempted to go for a more interesting banner though, +1M, marchx3 or flame perhaps


Special:
-6 x Knights of Ryma: FC, DC (220)
-20 x Lion Guards: FC (290)
-12 x Sword Masters: FC (184)
Solid IMO


Rare:
-1 x Giant Eagle (50)
-1 x Sky Sloop: Aldan Warhorn (170)
Solid, but you might consider swapping the sky sloop for two repeater bolters

2500/2500

What I really like about this list so far is:

- Prince on ancient dragon absolutely rips every single opponent apart, and the T7 is such as welcome change to the usual T3 that I cant have an army without it.
-I've also grown very fond of 6 x Dragon Princes as they are devistating on the charge.
-Stubborn lion guards
agree


What I am not really satisfied with/unsure about:

-Earlier, this list included 20 x Flame Wardens, but I felt that they are mostly good at taking damage rather than dealing any damage them selves. I already have a block of 31 spearmen and 20 stubborn lion guards, so didn't really feel that they were needed. So I did some small modifications and added the Sky Sloop, which I haven't tried to play with yet. But against WS3 units, then the Aldan Warhorn sounds promising as most of my units are WS5. Still sounds a bit expencive, so let us see.
the problem with swordmasters, if they were part of this trade, is that they're the first thing which will be targetted by any small arms fire, as tehy';re much more vulnerable than everything else in your list. interesting to see the switch from a block to the sky sloop though, usually I'd think of it more as a support unit than a replacement like that.


-Especially, I am unsure about if a level 4 wizard is needed in an army like this. At least, so far, he's been very ineffective and I feel that maybe those points could be used elsewhere. Could be that a LVL 2 is enough? Or maybe another path than white magic would be better suited for this army type? Suggestions?
Lv4 is IMO only worth it if you combine it with either +3/+3 item or the crystal, otherwise you might as well go Lv2/2 with scroll and ToAL

-I feel that my two biggest blocks, the spearmen and lion guards, can quite easily be outmanouvered against good opposition, altohugh it has not happened yet. Should I invest in speed banners?
Ah, just got htere - yes!

I will appreciate any comments on how to make this list better and if there are any clear weaknesses.

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:01 am
Posts: 17
Thanks! I really liked the idea of the level 1 alchemy mage. It seems like all of you are suggesting to invest more in magic, and it does make sense to me given my lack of shooting. I have implemented him into my army and given my archmage the amethyst crystal. My level 1 will be placed with the spearmen, and I bought an archer bunker for my archmage as I decided he'd not be safe with the elein reavers.

I decided to take your advice to implement speed banners on my spearmen. I have had good experience with heavy armor on spearmen in some games as it makes them much more versitale against s3 hits etc, but will opt against it for the sake of experimenting.

Substiuting the sky sloop with 2x bolt throwers and 50 points extra is something I have pondered on over and over again. It's just that I really want to try the sky sloop a couple of games just to try it out.

My army now looks like this:

Lords:
- Level 4 Archmage (Path of Heavens/Light): Asfad Scholar, Amethyst Crystal (310)
- Prince on Ancient Dragon: Halberd, (495)

Heroes:
- Commander: Royal Huntsman, Lion Chariot, Great Weapon, Dusk Stone, Heavy Armor, BSP (243)
- Level 1 Mage (Path of Alchemy): Dispel Scroll (105)

Core: (625)
- 10 x Archers (90)
- 30 x Spearmen: FC, Icon of the Relentless Company (285)
- 5 x Elein Reavers: Bow, MP5+, Mus (115)
- 5 x Lancers: Standard, MP5+, Mus (135)

Special:
- 20 x Flame Wardens: FC, Rending Banner (360)
- 5 x Knights of Ryma: FC, DC (190)

Rare:
- Sky Sloop: Aldan Warhorn (170)

2498/2500

Alternatively with lions: (more hard hitting and with an additional speed banner)

Lords:
- Level 4 Archmage (Path of Heavens/Light): Asfad Scholar, Amethyst Crystal (310)
- Prince on Ancient Dragon: Halberd, lucky shield (500)

Heroes:
- Commander: Great Weapon, ToGS, Mithril Mail, BSP (153)
- Level 1 Mage (Path of Alchemy): Dispel Scroll (105)

Core: (625)
- 10 x Archers (90)
- 30 x Spearmen: FC, Icon of the Relentless Company (285)
- 5 x Elein Reavers: Bow, MP5+, Mus (115)
- 5 x Lancers: Standard, MP5+, Mus (135)

Special:
- 20 x Lion Guards: FC, Banner of Speed (315) - in rows of 6
- 6 x Knights of Ryma: FC, DC (222)
- 1 x Lion Chariot (100)

Rare:
- Sky Sloop: Aldan Warhorn (170)

2500/2500

I hope to try both of these armies of Friday against lizardmen.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:53 pm 
Offline
9th Age Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm
Posts: 1906
I don't have a strong preference for wardens or lions - I think it comes down to personal taste, playstyle and meta, so either list should do fine.

I think you're lacking in champions to absorb any champ challenges your dragonlord might take - to that end I'd consider adding them to your lancer unit(s), and also potentially changing the reavers to a second lancer unit so you can afford to throw them into combat more, but can still at a pinch use them as chaff or redirectors. I'd maybe take the points from the archers, which aren't doing anything except being a bunker.

On that note, I think you do not have enough redirectors, but without a drastic change to your set up (i.e. lose a unit, either spears for reavers or Wardens/Lions for eagles and/or reavers) I don't see how you can change that. This is doubly so given how little shooting you have to clear enemy redirectors. The problem is you have *so* much invested in characters, you've only got half an army left to play with.

And there's my final point, you have *very* little shooting. Sky sloop might be fun, but in this list I think you'd be much better served by two bolters.

What's your thinking behind the lore on the AM?

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:01 am
Posts: 17
Ferny wrote:
I think you're lacking in champions to absorb any champ challenges your dragonlord might take - to that end I'd consider adding them to your lancer unit(s), and also potentially changing the reavers to a second lancer unit so you can afford to throw them into combat more, but can still at a pinch use them as chaff or redirectors. I'd maybe take the points from the archers, which aren't doing anything except being a bunker.


I had not thought about the challenge aspect of the champion before, so that is something new for me to consider. So, is it recommended to have full command on all units? And in case not, when is it not advisable? This is something I have very little experience with.

I plan to change the army to include possibly 2 units of helms and 1 of reavers.

Removing the only bunker I have would mean that I'd have to give my archmage the gleaming robe. Or do you see any other options?

Ferny wrote:
On that note, I think you do not have enough redirectors, but without a drastic change to your set up (i.e. lose a unit, either spears for reavers or Wardens/Lions for eagles and/or reavers) I don't see how you can change that. This is doubly so given how little shooting you have to clear enemy redirectors. The problem is you have *so* much invested in characters, you've only got half an army left to play with.


On enemy redirectos, generally, I feel that shooting from HBE core units achieve more or less nothing. You usually hit on 50% and wound on 33 % of that 50% with no armor piercing. So they are not enough to completely remove units of chaff, at least that is my experience. My general idea was that to deal with units of chaff, say 10 skinks, my silver helms (I had 2 units initially) would either remove or hold up the opponent's chaff my simply charging. I also had the sky sloop plus magic to remove more flexible chaff/redirectors, like eagles.

On my own redirectors, are 3 units of cav enough, or do I need one additional eagle for that sole purpose?

I do have much invested in characters - maybe too much. I could free up points by:

a) Substitute the dragon for a griffon. This would give me approx 100 points if I equip my lord with 100 points of magic items.
b) Remove the lvl 1 mage and keep the archmage as he is now (with the gleaming robe and crystal). That would, however, leave me without a dispel scroll, which sounds scary. Anyhow, this would free up 105 points.
c) Reduce magic drastically by only having one lvl 2 mage with dispel scroll. OR maybe one lv 1 alchemy mage with dispel scroll and 1 lv 2 mage with extra spell? On both of these, I would include banner of becalming so I would not get thrased in the opponent's magic phase. The first would give me approx 300 and the second would give me 170 points.

In addition to all of these possibilities, I can remove the sky sloop which frees up 170 points.

All together, this will free up "at least" 270 points for shooting. This could mean 2 bolt throwers and some queen's guards, but I have to give it some more thought.

Ferny wrote:
What's your thinking behind the lore on the AM?

I have not tried heavens yet, but it really seems like a powerful path. Lots of spells to weaken the opponent's shooting (and close combat units) and buffer my own. In addition, there are some quite good damage spells.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:31 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12325
Location: Otherworld
espn wrote:
On enemy redirectos, generally, I feel that shooting from HBE core units achieve more or less nothing. You usually hit on 50% and wound on 33 % of that 50% with no armor piercing. So they are not enough to completely remove units of chaff, at least that is my experience. My general idea was that to deal with units of chaff, say 10 skinks, my silver helms (I had 2 units initially) would either remove or hold up the opponent's chaff my simply charging. I also had the sky sloop plus magic to remove more flexible chaff/redirectors, like eagles.

Most enemy redirectors are subject to Panic tests, so you don't necessarily need to wipe them out. Spells and threat of charge are useful tools here but magic can be dispelled and several redirectors are just too fast to pin down. Elves can certainly play without shooting but it's one of their main advantages, I really miss it when using other armies.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:43 am 
Offline
9th Age Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm
Posts: 1906
Full command is usually worth it in big units. On smaller units you get diminishing returns, but it's worth considering what you get from it and why you want it. I like 6 man units of lancers with a standard because they're a cheapish, fast scoring unit. 6 makes them that bit more resilient. I also like to give them a champ to hold down flying characters for a turn with a challenge, assuming I still have enough for a rank alive at the time. And the musician, well, he allows a lot more manouverability...but now the points are starting to escalate on a small, vulnerable(ish) unit. Also worth bearing in mind captured standards cost 50 bonus points, and these units might lose combats if you're not careful. That's mostly my thought process on when to FC and when not to.

Gleaming robes is the obvious answer. Chariot mount and a ward save is less obvious, but worth considering. Or look at Lv2 scroll+lv2 extra spell, so no single loss is so critical (just noticed that's one of your suggestions). But it's tricky - points are tight with an AD!

IMO helms deal with chaff well enough, the problem is they're serving so many roles they're hard to focus with. One option I guess would be to scrap the spears and go full MSU cav. Not sure if it's a good ooption, you lose your biggest steadfast unit in the process. I'd be tempted towards wardens over liions in this context, to give the 'anvil'.

I wouldn't switch to griffon. I personally like them, but if you'[re rocking it with the AD build you'll be disappointed by the griffon in terms of resilience and power.

Scroll is arguably optional these days. I feel naked without one, but ymmv.

In this list I would definitely take 2x RBT over the skysloop for the volume of shots.

RE: lore - its important to pick synergy as well as awesomeness.

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:01 am
Posts: 17
SpellArcher wrote:
Most enemy redirectors are subject to Panic tests, so you don't necessarily need to wipe them out. Spells and threat of charge are useful tools here but magic can be dispelled and several redirectors are just too fast to pin down. Elves can certainly play without shooting but it's one of their main advantages, I really miss it when using other armies.


Hehe good point. I tend to forget as I play my lion's share of games against lizardmen and they are more or less immune to panic.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:01 am
Posts: 17
Ferny wrote:
Gleaming robes is the obvious answer. Chariot mount and a ward save is less obvious, but worth considering. Or look at Lv2 scroll+lv2 extra spell, so no single loss is so critical (just noticed that's one of your suggestions). But it's tricky - points are tight with an AD!

It is very tricky indeed. It's 500 points invested solely into close combat, if you're saving on magical items! And you have to have a BSP, so that's another 150 - at least. Then, if you want a decent magic phase, it's 300+ at least. Or you could opt the other way, having a lvl 2 + extra spell, but that will also leave you vurnable in the opponent's magic phase as well (with only +1 to dispel).

At the same time, with the dragon, I feel he's not "synergising" with mobile armies where you play shoot and run with the enemy. There's no point in investing 500 points in pure close combat havoc if you don't want to engage in combat. But I agree, I have been too focused on not having any shooting at all, and I see now that it will be a problem. I think I'll try two variants: one where I only add 2 bolt throwers for the sky sloop and keep the magic, and one where I go less heavy on magic and increase my shooting, to see what works best with my playing style.

Ferny wrote:
IMO helms deal with chaff well enough, the problem is they're serving so many roles they're hard to focus with. One option I guess would be to scrap the spears and go full MSU cav. Not sure if it's a good ooption, you lose your biggest steadfast unit in the process. I'd be tempted towards wardens over liions in this context, to give the 'anvil'.

Definitly an intresting suggestion, but not sure I'll do it for this specific army.

Ferny wrote:
I wouldn't switch to griffon. I personally like them, but if you'[re rocking it with the AD build you'll be disappointed by the griffon in terms of resilience and power.

Hehe that's how I feel. I don't feel I get enough back for the 100 points gained when I lose an ancient dragon!

Ferny wrote:
Scroll is arguably optional these days. I feel naked without one, but ymmv.

I regret it every single time I leave home with out it.

Ferny wrote:
In this list I would definitely take 2x RBT over the skysloop for the volume of shots.

Agree, will do it. Have you seen a list where the sky sloop fits in (and can direct me to it)? I really want to try it some day. Especially with the Aldan Warhorn, I feel you need a bit of close combat units to take advantage from the -1 WS.

Ferny wrote:
RE: lore - its important to pick synergy as well as awesomeness.

I feel I finally have with heavens and this army. Let's see how it plays out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm 
Offline
9th Age Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm
Posts: 1906
Arhain is rocking the skysloop:

http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php? ... -1-0-2500/

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group