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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:23 pm 
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I really want to play a Dragon Mage, with my preferred build being hero level 2+/2+ and extra spell (but I could be tempted by grounding rod instead). And I think he synergises really well with shooting, so for all my general misgivings about them, I'm gonna go for a max unit of 30 archers FC to take advantage of his auto-generated spell, which then IMO basically becomes must stop. These guys are now effectively the unit of sisters which I don't have painted, but coming from core :D :D. These two units are really the central plank of this army concept. I also wanted to include a lion character chariot in some shape or form, and eventually I settled on a lion prince. Everything else revolves around no elite melee or shooty infantry, as I don't have any modelling/painting time between now and the tourney to get Queens Guard, Grey Watchers, Fire Pheonix or Wardens ready, and while I have loads of painted swords and lions, without wardens I don't want an infantry list.

Characters: 962
Lords: 340

Llewod Bryd, General 340
Prince, Huntsman, Lion Chariot, Armour of Destiny, Divine Icon, Bow of Eru, Lion Cloak, Great Weapon

Heroes: 622
Dileu am Tarth 105
Mage, Shadow, Dispel Scroll

Saith Brenhines, BSB 157
Commander, Queen’s Companion, BSB, Moonlight Arrows, Longbow, Banner of Becalming

Tanio Draig 360
Mage, Fire, Lv2, Order of the Fiery Heart, Dragonforged Armour, Hardened Shield, Duskstone, Tome of Arcane Lore, Young Dragon, Terwyn

Core: 614
28 Archers, FC "The Queen's Guard" 282
10x Sea Guard, Ambush 150
6x Lancers, MP, S+Ch, Speed (25) 182

Rare: 540
Sky Sloop 130
2x Sea Guard Reaper, RS 160
Frost Pheonix 200
Eagle 50

Special: 284
7x Knights of Rhyma, DC, FC, War Banner of Rhyma 284

Total: 2,400
Total Banners: 3+BSB
Total models: 60
Channel: 4+/3+

Not sure if this is fully optimised (at 2,500 I would add an eagle and a couple more lancers, which IMO makes it *much* more rounded), but I think it is viable, fun, and includes lots of new toys :D.

What is this list packing....
    It's actually a reasonably shooty list in it's own right, with 2x bolt throwers, a mobile chariot shooting platform, 28 QtF archers, bow of eru lord and a queen's handmaiden BSB. It's not full shooty, but it's decent IMO.
    Decent magic. I think flaming swords is a must dispel (bubble is probably optimistic, albeit an option, but even just on the archer block tehy basically become sisters on the cheap)... but against the right opponent so is fireball :D :D. These two synergise beautifully with the shooting, but can also be cast into combats. Whatever my other two spells are, they're just gravy. Shadow should be solid for miasma, which has a beautifully low cast value, but the real kicker here is a 10" catapult on the lion general! I've also got a scroll, +2 to dispel and 50:50 or better chances to channel.
    Monster (and Chariot/Cav) Mash - even without the Rhyma honour, I've got a frosty and a (young) dragon, albeit neither with combat characters, and a beast of a general in the lion chariot. All three have small frontages and a high damage output. This is supported solidly by the Blood Knights of Rhyma, and more tangentially by a sky chariot and 6 lancers. This list is full of hammers. They're also pretty handy, I've got divine attacks, easy access to flaming attacks, and even lightening attacks!
    A safe backfield. Well, there's never truly such a thing, but with chariots (both doubling as shooters) rather than just pure war machines, and the shadow spell, it's much more mobile and counter-attacky than I'm used to.
    Chaff clearance - chariots, magic missiles, shooting, cavalry...

What is it lacking...
    Any sort of anvil at all...I kinda worry about big grinds against cheap masses, and holding the line if something braves my hammers and just breaks through.
    Re-directors...I've just got one eagle, and at a push core cav, sky chariot and a mage. I'm kinda hoping I can win the chaff war by blasting theirs rather than having my own...I'd love to have another eagle, but I just can't fit it in. I wonder whether I'd be better ditching my sea guard and getting a unit of reavers and boosting my lancers. In fact, I think I might do that...I've got magic and shooting to try to deal with war machines (but I do love my ambushers...).

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:19 pm 
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I can really recommend the dragon mage, I tried him in the Pre-ETC tourney this weekend with a strong teams, including team germany, russia, france etc. We played 6 games and he died only once due to a lucky cannon shot (I made a mistake with positioning behind the building). Apart from that he did a good job, distracting, spamming spells and buffing archers. I found also a synnergy between grey watchers and DM decent, but only because I had 10 of them.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:48 pm 
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Yeah, I think he looks good. RE: GW - I'm sure the synergy is there, but they're costly, rare, I was never a huge fan to begin with, and I don't have any painted, so... :P

More and more I'm thinking I ought to have given him earthing rod rather than extra spell though - flaming sword and fireball are both must stop in many situations, third spell is a bonus, fourth is perhaps unnecessary...but on miscasts he can tank damage but I don't want to lose him down an unlucky pit.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:47 pm 
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Here's the lists in so far for the tourney I'm taking this to. Turns out it's 2,500 so I get my extra eagle and lancers (I think).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfz3x17qzfml2 ... .docx?dl=0

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:16 pm 
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So, two other HE lists:

Alejandro - Highborn Elves

Heroes (497pts)

Commander (167pts)
Fleet Officer [Battle Standard Bearer,Shield, Hand Weapon, Light Armour,Magic Items [Armour of Destiny]

Commander (200pts)
Master Of Canreig Tower [Level 1 Wizard Apprentice (Path of Fire & Path of Shadows), The General, Heavy Armour]
Magic Items [Shielding Scroll, Hardened Shield, Talisman of Great Shielding, Razor Blade]

Mage (130pts)
Level 2 Wizard Apprentice [Path of Alchemy, Magic Items, Dispel Scroll]


Core (625pts)

Elein Reavers (90pts) 5x Elein Reaver [Bow, Mount's Protection (6+), Light Armour]
Elein Reavers (90pts) 5x Elein Reaver [Bow, Mount's Protection (6+), Light Armour]
Elein Reavers (90pts) 5x Elein Reaver [Bow, Mount's Protection (6+), Light Armour]

Sea Guard (355pts) [Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer]
25x Sea Guard [Light Armour, Shield, Lance, Hand Weapon]
Veteran Standard Bearer [Banner of Speed]


Special (765pts)

Flame Wardens (330pts) Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
20x Flame Wardens [Heavy Armour, Halberd, Magic Standard, Icon of the Relentless Company]

Knights of Ryma (210pts) [Musician, Standard Bearer]
5x Knight of Ryma [5x Devastating Charge] [Heavy Armour, Mount´s protection 5+, Shield, Lance]
Magic Standard [HE War Banner of Ryma]

Lion Guard (225pts) [Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer]
15x Lion Guard [Heavy Armour, Lion´s Fur, Great Weapon] Magic Standard [Banner of Courage]


Rare (612pts)

Grey Watchers (85pts) 5x Grey Watcher [Bow, Paired Weapons, Light Armour]
Grey Watchers (80pts) 5x Grey Watcher [Bow, Light Armour]
Fire Phoenix (160pts)
Fire Phoenix (160pts)
Queen's Guard (127pts) [Musician] 9x Queen's Guard [Moonlight Arrows, Bow, Light Armour]


Jake Bucknall - High elves

High Prince [Dragonforged Armour, Shield, The General] Elven Horse [Mount's Protection (5+)]
Magic Items [Divine Icon, Dragonscale Helm, Dusk Stone, Ogre Sword] =280pts

High Prince [Dragonforged Armour, Shield] Elven Horse [Mount's Protection (5+)]
Magic Items [Giant Sword, HE - Daemon Hunter’s Helm, Obsidian Pebble] =280pts

Commander [Dragonforged Armour, Lance] Elven Horse [Mount's Protection (5+)]
Magic Items [Hardened Shield, King Slayer]

Commander [Battle Standard Bearer, Dragonforged Armour, Lance, Shield] Elven Horse [Mount's Protection (5+)]
Magic Items [Talisman of Supreme Shielding] =194pts

Mage Level 2 Wizard Apprentice [Path of White Magic] Magic Items [Tome of Arcane Lore] =110pts

Mage [Elven Horse] Level 1 Wizard Apprentice [Path of Beasts] Magic Items [Dispel Scroll] =120pts


Citizen Archers [12x Archer, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer]=138pts
5x Elein Reaver [5x Mount's Protection (6+)]=85pts
5x Elein Reaver [5x Mount's Protection (6+)]=85pts
5x Elein Reaver [5x Mount's Protection (6+)]=85pts
15x Highborn Lancers [Champion, Musician] [Mount's Protection (5+)] Standard Bearer [War Banner of Ryma]=395pts

Lion Chariot =100pts
Lion Guard [Champion, 15x Lion Guard, Musician, Standard Bearer, Icon of the Relentless Company] =235pts
Sea Guard Reaper [Repeating Shot] =80pts
Sea Guard Reaper [Repeating Shot] =80pts
Sea Guard Reaper [Repeating Shot] =80pts

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:17 am 
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The second list is illegal as he has a 30 point banner on the Vet Standard Bearer in the lancers. I like his divine icon prince build tho - its one that I have been pondering to replace my own straight +3s prince


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:08 pm 
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Yeah, I guess the 30pts is a balancing decision to prevent this bus build? I imagine you have to put Ryma on the BSB and squeeze some protection from the remaining 20 of his allowance. He's not messing around with the hitting power concentrated in that unit.

As for your list Ferny, I agree it's an interesting blend of varied shooting and fast hitters. Enemy redirectors should be only a partial problem because you have Flyers. I suspect you have just enough redirectors of your own. I like the Chariot Prince!

:)

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 10:49 pm 
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Yeah, precisely that really SpellArcher - you can take rhyma banner on helms, but only via a BSB.

So - update from the event.

I played lizards first and got beat 17-3. He had a naked heavens scroll slann/bsb, baby carno, cowboy lord, ramphadon captain, ramph unit, skrox unit, big block of scrox, some skinks which did nothing all game reall and 2x 2 razorbacks.

I deployed everything first, which I think was a mistake because I didn't need first turn, but I wanted to speed things up cos I know I'm a slow player. I also sort of had a plan so it seemed OK at teh time but once I had first turn I knew it was a mistake.

Anyway, we each deployed mostly refused flanks and each moved forwards a bit on our respective corners. Lost my lion prince and frosty in an ill-advised combat against a block of krox. Kinda wanted to test out whether he could take them or not, and got my answer :roll: :wink: . Afterwords feedback was that probably I'd have been better targetting my shooting at them.

Next up lizards again. Think this game was my favourite, player was very relaxed and said he was on the verge of quitting tourneys but had fought friendlier people this time. There was a potential big swing in the final turn when his block failed a cold blooded Ld9 stubborn check but we got a bit confused about the role and I let it pass cos tbh if I were to win I didn't wanna win on a flukey single roll, not against this guy certainly. Gotta say, dragon mage seems pretty good across these two games. Lion prince hasn't impressed me yet, but I think I'm using wrong. ended 10:10 which I was happy with.

Last game terracotta army UD. Big bunker which I didn't go near. Big bad sphinx, which with hindsight I think I should have sent the S7 Rhyma Knights into because nothing else really has it, not even the monster killer lord. Learnt some tricks for the movement phase in this game, but I was losing concentration and made lots of mistakes. Honestly the level of play I was doing here must have been boring to play against, I was just throwing dice and failign to move things in hte move phase. Exhausted and a bit dehydrated (travelled down at 4AM and averaging 4hrs sleep/night this week I think).

Looking forward to tomorrow - my first game is against a necro heavy vamp list with lots of varkolaks.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 9:19 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
I wanted to speed things up cos I know I'm a slow player.

As a fellow slow player, kudos for this.

Ferny wrote:
I didn't wanna win on a flukey single roll

Very sporting.

Ferny wrote:
Honestly the level of play I was doing here must have been boring to play against, I was just throwing dice and failign to move things in hte move phase. Exhausted and a bit dehydrated (travelled down at 4AM and averaging 4hrs sleep/night this week I think).

I've found this typical for the third game of a day, feel wiped out. Tournaments can be very unforgiving of things like this. It took me several events to start posting respectable finishes because your list needs to be decent, you need to be physically OK, you need to learn in the field how your army works, you need to get a real grip on everything you might face. Slowly it comes together.

Results now up here:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 3&t=133754

HBE struggled.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 10:01 pm 
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Struggled seems to be an understatement if you look at the results :(


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 10:02 pm 
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ouch, tough run out for the elves.

feedbqck when you are recovered ferny! :D

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 10:46 pm 
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Doctor wrote:
Struggled seems to be an understatement if you look at the results :(

Sure seems that way.

What's worse is that the best ranking HbE player appears to have the lowest ranking of the "best in race" results.

However, on the bright side, the top 16 results were spread across 12 armies.

The ones not found in the first 16 were Warriors of the Dark Gods, Beast Herds, Ogre Khans, and Highborn Elves (in order of highest to lowest first appearance).


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 11:33 pm 
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Regarding the results overall, a few comments/observations:

1. I believe there were a lot of very top players present. I don't know the tourney scene that well (Jal or SA could confirm), but I certainly got the impression that we had ETC players and contenders present, including some internationals. I suspect the top of the field was dominated by these players, and they weren't fielding HBE. (I don't want to cast aspersions on fellow HBE generals though - as I said, I don't really know the scene very well yet).

2. On the middle and bottom tables there was relatively little movement - mostly we were getting draws or minor win/losses. Comments I got, and my feelings also, was that by and large there weren't any auto-lose match ups. It seems perhaps quite good that amongst the 'non-pros' things were so balanced

3. As has been noted, the top tables were spread across a range of armies and a range of builds. This also bodes well for the game IMO.

****

Regarding my list and performance - I think my elves performed well enough, despite my poor results. This was my first outing with 0.99.4/0.1, and I was rocking some completely new stuff for me: lion prince chariot, dragon mage and core archers. Also no alchemy back-up. I didn't really know the capacity of my units and so had to experiment in the field at the tourney rather than before hand, so took some decisions which if I knew the army better I would consider to be poor - but that's how you learn, right? Also, it wasn't just the individual units I was learning, but also the unit synergy - notes on that to follow. I was also getting back into the swing of competitive play after a long hiatus, so got caught out particularly by some movement rules/tricks. I certainly wouldn't judge HBEs by *my* performance - very much generalship error rather than army error IMO.

****

Day 2 update:
Game 4 - vs Steve's VC.
Turns out I know Steve from the Manchester tourney I went to earlier in the year, when I fought his Empire (got a small win IIRC), I just hadn't recognised the name/surname and army switch. I enjoyed playing him both times, and I think perhaps after the second lizard game this was my favourite.

Mission was capture the flag.

His list was:
small zombie unit with flag
large zombie unit with 3 necros, including new version of corpse cart, with flag
large skelly with spears unit, lahmia vampire, with flag
3x varkolocs
4x 5 dogs
chariot with regen aura and book of +2 to cast and worse miscasts
terrorgheist
3x spirit hosts

I deployed first and dropped everthing. I went with a 'gunline' in a corner, theory being this would give me a threat radius with my knights, Ld bubble with my lord vs the terrorghieist, and boosted flaming swords would give me ethereal hunting capacity and regen stripping, on top of the basic +1 to wound. I knew that was my plan so might as well drop everthing first.

He hid the small unit of zombies in the opposite corner to preserve their flag. He then deployed two units of dogs opposite my gunline, then skellies with vamp front, backed up by necro bus and regen chariot. varkolocks and terrorgheist deployed on his far flank.

HBE Turn 1: I redistribute my gunline to match his movements a bit, reassured by the location of some of his units. I kill the two nearest dog units, and get a third down to a single dog.
VC Turn 1: he advances one remainign dog in front of my helms, and the other unit in front of my KoR. Everything else advances. Invocation spam. He magic missiles my 10 seaguard down to 3. They now do nothing all game, but survive and retain points.

HBE turn 2: I magic/shoot the spirit hosts off. Fail to get movement miasma off on the vampire unit, which means I also fail to repositino my prince hcariot to where I want it (that's teh problem with synergy - it all unwravels when one thing goes wrong!). I move my dragon out of arcs/ranges to where I can choose to either charge necrobus front, regenmobile front or vampbus flank/rear depending on their move. MAJOR MISTAKE #1. I take the bait and charge the dogs with each of my knight units, and my eagles are just slightly too far back to do the necessary. This leaves me 13" distant from the vampire unit with both units, and KoR 18" from two varkolocks. I turn KoR to face them and cover shrieking horror's angles, but thsi offers flank to the vampire unit.
VC Turn 2: He charges vamp unit into my helms and over-runs into an eagle. His skellies are horde formation, he must have about 60-70 by now think. Both varkolocs make it in. LUCKY MOMENT #1: he fluffs his attacks and I pass 5+/6++ saves and the I actually win the combat by 1!

HBE turn 3: MULTI-CHARGE! (I asked Steve to photo this - if I can get it I'll link - looked awesome) - Sky chariot, lion prince and pheonix into front of skellies, archer horde into flank, and after weighing up the options, dragon mage into rear! I challenge the vamp with my prince and we pillow fight, me putting one wound on her for none in return...but she's the only threat besides numbers and time to grind them down, so she was effectively neutered by him. I win big (attacks, stomps, thunderstomps, breath weapon, fireballs etc - latter reduced size but don't contribute to CR) and he crumbles big, but he's still there. LUCKY MOMENT #2: he fluffs his varkoloc attacks a second time, and I win on musician, and critically hold the line.
VC turn 3: he charges the terrorgheist in to the KoR flank, and against the odds I deal a wound from a knight and another from a horse. But now his varkolocks woke up and killed some knights, and he screamed off all but one of the rest, who fled. Flee direction, thanks to the terrorghesit, was away from the big central combat. I outrun him, but my banner is now dead - just one scoring unit (archers) left on my side now. In the big combat, my prince manages to kill his general - crumble ensues. I also do lots of damage to the skellies, but about 8 are left.

HBE turn 4: I take pot shots for points but nothing. I finish off skeleton block.
VC turn 4: he finishes off fleeing knight.

we call the game due to time. adding up points it's 10:10, but he won the scenario so it swings to 13:7 to Steve. Really fun game, desptite my moment of stupidity when I took the bait.


Game 5 synopsis to follow.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 1:10 am 
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Game 5 vs Daemons

Scenario - breakthrough

His list:
Bloodthirster (honest question - how would you tackle this beast?)
big unit of plague core deamons with herald, scoring unit
small unit of tzeench damons with herald, scoring unit
2x cannons
5 furies
3 beasts
4 flies

I had a hill which I hid my flyers/prince chariot behind. I deployed both cav on right flank and bolters on left. He had his core plague and bloodthirster on my cav flank, flies opposite teh hill, flanked by cannons, tzeench behind them, and furies opposite my bolters.

HBE turn 1: archers advance onto hill (qtf with BSB) with a view to shooting flies. dragon advances even further, wanting to charge the chariot next turn (2++ vs his cannon - flamproof). I move my knights of rhyma up too, to increase their threat range. MISTAKE #1: I move my sky cutter up to join the shooting, but this means it is no longer covering the bolters from the furies...I got gready, should have stayed back for an extra turn.
I get flaming sword on the archers and they kill a fly and wound another, or at any rate that's the score after shooting is over.
Deamons turn 1: he declares chariot charge on dragon (10 needed), hold, and flies (9 needed IIRC), which I flee, so failed charges. Everything else moves up.

HBE turn 2: Knights of Rhyma have a flank charge on the flies and take it, with an over-run (9 IIRC) into a cannon. I nail the flies but fail my over-run, leaving them very vulnerable to the other cannon and the thirster. damn. And because I'd been hiding them behind the hill, my eagles were too far to respond. Dragon rallies. I shadow magic my archers off the hill, away from the thirster, to a good spot to shoot the beasts, but I blow 5 of them up in the process.
Deamons turn 2: cannon predictably charges my knights in the rear, who flee, and are then charged by the beasts who catch them (fail their re-direct into the archers). more shuffling forwards. furies charge RBT - kill one each, I hold. other cannon long-charges my archers, stand and shoot, he's in (possible mistake here - might have been better to flee?). He kills my scroll caddy (already blown) and some archers, hold on steadfast.

HBE turn 3: dragon charges furies as he doesn't have space on the cannon, but fails to kill them with magic so rbt still locked in combat during shooting phase. sky cutter charges cannon which is combat with the archers, but does jack. helms do a big 20" move to get out of the way of the plaguebearers, and to threaten the tzeench unit (16" away). In combat he kills my rbt before my dragon flattens the last fury.
Daemon turn 3: i think beasts fail charge my dragon. bloodthirster nears the archer combat, but they flee and get run down. cannon over-run fails to hit my dragon.

HBE turn 4: My helms fail their charge (needing 6) on the tzeench unit, and suffer from magic last turn and stand and shoot now - just 2 left, and they're in front of the cannon! I don't think I made a mistake here, I think I was just unlucky, though arguably not having a ready eagle was a mistake (that cannon though!). I move my dragon out the way of the bloodthirster and fireball the beasts, then fire sky boat and remaining rbt at the cannon which just killed the archers and finish it.
deamon turn 4: remaining cannon charged knights who fled. everything else advances.

HBE turn 5: I set up a double flee with eagles on the plaguebearers to stop them from reaching my deployment zone and claiming the objective. This went disasterously wrong and between turns 5-6 all my stuff ended up fleeing.

End score: 2525 to him and, dunno, c.7-800 to me, plus he got the scenario, so 20-0 loss. He was a really friendly guy though and it never felt bad when things swung against me, really enjoyed the game despite the big final loss.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 6:44 pm 
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Good you enjoyed the game, Ferny :)

Grenic wrote:
The ones not found in the first 16 were Warriors of the Dark Gods, Beast Herds, Ogre Khans, and Highborn Elves (in order of highest to lowest first appearance).

Highest HBE being 35th.. Other elf armies in the top four. Maybe we should wait for more tournaments though.


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 8:49 pm 
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Yeah as much as a "WERE UNDERPOWERED" rant wpuld be attractive we need to wait and at least see the ETC imo. I dont think our book is bad so have to assume it was matchups / dice / lacklustre decision making which cost the HBEs the day!!


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 9:30 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
1. I believe there were a lot of very top players present. I don't know the tourney scene that well (Jal or SA could confirm), but I certainly got the impression that we had ETC players and contenders present, including some internationals. I suspect the top of the field was dominated by these players, and they weren't fielding HBE. (I don't want to cast aspersions on fellow HBE generals though - as I said, I don't really know the scene very well yet).

Fair point.

Ferny wrote:
small zombie unit with flag
large zombie unit with 3 necros, including new version of corpse cart, with flag
large skelly with spears unit, lahmia vampire, with flag
3x varkolocs
4x 5 dogs
chariot with regen aura and book of +2 to cast and worse miscasts
terrorgheist
3x spirit hosts

Looks quite a tricksy list.

Ferny wrote:
Fail to get movement miasma off on the vampire unit, which means I also fail to repositino my prince hcariot to where I want it (that's teh problem with synergy - it all unwravels when one thing goes wrong!).

I feel it's usually hard to rely on magic.

Ferny wrote:
he must have about 60-70 by now

This is the thing, you get to shoot but he gets to raise.

Ferny wrote:
I asked Steve to photo this - if I can get it I'll link - looked awesome

Or it didn't happen!

:)

Ferny wrote:
Bloodthirster (honest question - how would you tackle this beast?)

Traditionally with shooting/magic and finish it off in combat maybe?

Ferny wrote:
I'd been hiding them behind the hill, my eagles were too far to respond

This should right itself with practice.

In fact, a lot of the trouble here seemed to be distances just too short or too long.

Doctor wrote:
Highest HBE being 35th.

This confused me because I only found three HBE lists in the original Dropbox file. When I checked, the gent named had a Dark Elf list in that file. So not sure if he switched to HBE late on?

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 9:34 pm 
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SA - the dropbox file was incomplete - there was a clamour for lists to be posted so the TO put up what he had at the time, and that is the document you've seen. There were at least 4 HBE lists, possibly one or two more, but definitely 4 - the missing one I think is the one which did best of all of them, with a dragon prince, frosty, PG block, biiiiig spear block, alchemy archmage and stuff what I can't remember...

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 6:58 am 
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One shouldn't put too much emphasis on the results of a single tournament... The most recent touney here in Germany was won by HBE and had another one in 4th - so don't buy into the complain-crowd too readily :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 11:15 am 
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The reactions to HBE power level on this site have been pretty measured on the whole.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 3:37 pm 
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I wouldn't have expected any less from the noble folk of Ulthuan ;)


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In part I think it's because here we're used to and have a culture of working with the tools at hand, whereas because T9A forum has been design-driven since the start, by its nature, there is more a focus on fixing the army rather than using the army to best effect.

We got generally supportive/positive and balanced feedback in the voting thread here, albeit small sample size. I'm curious to see what would happen over on T9A if and when I post a similar poll...but I strongly want to wait until things settle down a bit and people get used to playing the army as is rather than seeing it as an evolving beast. There likely will be a change and review phase post-ETC, although we don't know the scale, direction or nature of this yet, but I'm desperately looking forward to seeing more Army Blog style posts that Ulthuan does so well instead of, or at least as well as, the creative outpouring of development ideas. It's been a really fun phase, kinda like the meta shift every time GW released a new book, but on a much quicker scale and with greater access for individuals to influence design...but I think we've broadly done a good job (as a community and a staff team) and I'm ready for something deeper now (IMO).

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 7:29 am 
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I am not sure we would do so badly in a HBE poll on the T9A forums. Sure, there are several players that are very unhappy with the current list/rules, but these are really only the same 10 people ... who just wouldn't quit complaining :lol:

By the way, there is one option missing from the poll: "HBE are too strong/op now" :D


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 7:45 pm 
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Top 1/3 dominated by regulars - we even had a Team England 1,2,3 for the second event running, and 5 of the top 7 were England

I think HBE are decent, but seem to be lacking something. I can;t seem to write a list I'm happy with - but my gut feel is that it involves at least 1 Dragon and lots of shooting.

Really enjoying the UD at the moment, think I've stumbled upon a playstyle that will do well at singles and team events

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Jal wrote:
Top 1/3 dominated by regulars - we even had a Team England 1,2,3 for the second event running, and 5 of the top 7 were England

I think HBE are decent, but seem to be lacking something. I can;t seem to write a list I'm happy with - but my gut feel is that it involves at least 1 Dragon and lots of shooting.

Really enjoying the UD at the moment, think I've stumbled upon a playstyle that will do well at singles and team events


Thanks - I had a feeling the top tables were populated by top players (as you'd expect really), but as I don't really know the circuit I don't know who's who. Also can't tell who from the mid-lower tables is a regular having a bad event...

I'd love to get more detailed thoughts on this:
What is it about dragon+shooting that makes the list fit together that bit better than alternative lists?
Any preference on what type of dragon should be in your 1+ dragon lists, or do you have no inherent preference and it's list dependent (our 3 dragons are quite different, youngblood especially, but I've started seeing regular dragons in some lists rather than auto-upgrade to ancient)?
Could you switch out a dragon for A.N. Other flying nasty (e.g. griffon prince, pheonix lord), or is the dragon the critical feature?
Also curious - does your dragon(s) have a prince or a mage sat on-top (or the crown of sorcery?)?

What's the thinking behind your UD list?

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 4:13 pm 
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I’m looking at it from a team perspective where HBE can take a couple of Dragons to act as hammers and enough shooting to create no-go areas. The board control can help manipulate the matchup process and from a psychological point of view dragons are much scarier than other fliers on the whole.

With the UD, I’ve been using monstrous infantry to mulch infantry armies.


I'd probably look to take:

2 Regular Dragons with Elu BSB and 2 mages (Maybe on Fire)

Ancient and Baby with Elu BSB and maybe a steed Prince as general with a L1 Shadow or Heavens

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:49 am 
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Jal wrote:
2 Regular Dragons with Elu BSB and 2 mages (Maybe on Fire)


Dragons are still one of a kind, so that's a no go.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 1:57 pm 
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"Last of Their Kind
Highborn Elves armies may include a maximum of any two of the following: Young Dragons, Dragons, Fire Phoenixes
and Frost Phoenixes. This includes models taken as mounts. This limit is increased to 4 for GrandArmies and reduced
to 1 for Warbands."

2 dragons is not a problem. If you choose to have a "prince of rhyma" you could actually bring 2 dragons and 1 young dragon :)


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 4:42 pm 
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But in addition to the LotK rule, if you check out the mount entry for dragons (and by extension, ancient dragons, as they're just an upgrade), they have OoaK...so you can have one dragon/ancient dragon plus a youngblood dragon in a normal list, and have a second youngblood dragon additionally (assuming your points will stretch) if you have the Rhyma honour, but you can't have two full-blooded 'ordinary' dragons in the list still.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:22 am 
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Ok! Learn something everyday!


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