Ogres, bloomin Ogres

[Arlthain]

Hi all,

Playing v.99 and I'm having huge trouble against ogres, we used to go toe to toe but all of a sudden with the new books he's destroying everyone in every game. his combination of Yeti furs, paired weapons and parry saves when added to tribesman units of 6-9 with 2 heroes sitting in the front rank is just horrible, even when I multi combo charge to get rid of those pesky impact hits i'm still slaughtered. Honestly not sure I can touch him. He also likes to run a single separate death mage for sniping.

I've a game this afternoon and I could really use some general help. Trying anything out! heres what I'm looking at atm:

2400

High Prince
-Ancient Dragon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Divine Icon, Giant Sword, talisman of greater Shielding

Commander, MoCT
-Bsb, Dragonforge Armour, Great weapon, shield, Bow of Elu, Tome of Arcane Lore

Mage, Asfad
-Griffon (AP1, Lightening reflexes, thunderous and dev charge), talisman of supreme shielding

Core
20 Seaguard, Full command, Heavy Armour
20 Seaguard, Full command, Heavy Armour

Special
6 Knights of Ryma, Full Command, Dev charge

Rare
15 Queens guard, Longbows, Musician
1 Sky Sloop with the Storm Pennant

The list really doesn't look like much, although everything else I've tried just gets smashed. In addiction to the above mentioned he likes his gorgers, 2 or 3 small units of bombardiers, saber tooth re- directors and yetis.

Comments and help appreciated, I'm a fairly seasoned player with 16+years under the belt but this new OK book is seriously giving my elves a headache... I'm this close to just throwing down a gobbo squig list!

[Giladis]

This is interesting since the OK is currently the weakest of the lot.

Can you post your opponents list so that we may have a better persepective.

[John Rainbow]

I don't know 9th age at all but I'll go out on a limb here...

I think your list is a terrible matchup v. ogres (or at least it would have been in 8th). You have very small units that can do little damage to the ogres who then annihilate them with the return swings. Using monsters v. ogres is usually a bad idea as they simply don't care about the increase in toughness with the sheer number of high str. attacks they put out. I played a dragon list a lot in 8th and ogres were always one of the toughest matches.

IMHO ogres have always been a tough opponent for HE. We don't generally have the high AS to mitigate their large number of attacks and they don't really care about our innate advantages in high initiative, etc as they have the sheer number of wounds to absorb the hits then strike back.

I've always felt that monstrous infantry were overpowered. I'm not sure how they are done in 9th but monstrous supporting attacks in particular have always been a problem in my mind. A unit of ogres could, in 8th, be cheaper than a unit of HE spearmen and would contain more wounds and more, high str. attacks. Has this changed any in 9th?

[SpellArcher]

IMHO ogres have always been a tough opponent for HE. We don't generally have the high AS to mitigate their large number of attacks and they don't really care about our innate advantages in high initiative, etc as they have the sheer number of wounds to absorb the hits then strike back.

Agreed, much prefer playing them with Wood Elves.

I've always felt that monstrous infantry were overpowered. I'm not sure how they are done in 9th but monstrous supporting attacks in particular have always been a problem in my mind. A unit of ogres could, in 8th, be cheaper than a unit of HE spearmen and would contain more wounds and more, high str. attacks.

But HE Spears aren't all that. I guess in 9th Age they are better vs mounted troops but not MI. Monstrous Infantry are not that great in general though IMHO. M6 without Swiftstride is OK but not amazing and they tend to lack decent saving throws. The Gutstar is a bit different because of the characters.

[Malossar]

Spears are actually quite good, in fact I think they're much better than sea guard currently due to the costs associated with fielding a combat worthy unit!


Consider that with FiER + Spears, you have an effective 4 combat ranks. Lose 1/20 and you're already cutting into your combat power. So I take blocks of 30, preferably 35, but right now with the cost of other units in core, 30's about all I can squeeze.

30x Highborn Spears - 295
-Full Command, Warbanner


Start combat with a great static res against ogres! then use your dragon to generate wounds. Drop the storm pennant from the sky sloop and find points for an eagle.

I'd also take the mage off the griffon for more frontline combat troos. What lore are you taking?

[Arlthain]

Well, let me start by saying that, I ACTUALLY FRIGGING WON! Now let me go on to explain that despite me playing a very solid, rather clever game I only beat the bastards thanks to a few critical/lucky/unlucky roles here and there, other wise he would have mascaraed me, again.

Giladis: I mentioned to my Ogre friend that you'd said they were considered the weakest atm and he outright laughed, not even a casual laugh but a full on 'are you serious' type laugh, in his words (or near enough) he thinks ogres needed all the buffs in v.99 but he was worried that you guys have taken it too far and now considers his army a little OP atm, especially with regards to points costings, (to which I agreed, he just wreaks face everywhere) BUT enough about that, let me go on to post his list and a little about the game (mine remains unchanged as it was up top)

2400

HBE
Prince, Ancient Dragon, Giants blade, Talisman of Greater Shielding Holy Icon thing

Commander MoCT, BSB, Tomb of Arcane lore, Great Bow Elu
Mage, L2, Griffon (pimped up with everything) Talisman of supreme shielding

20 Seaguard, Heavy Armour, Full Commy
20 Seaguard, Heavy Armour, Full Commy

6 Knights of Ryma, Dev charge, Full Commy

15 sisters, Long bow, Musician
1 Sky Sloop, storm pendant

VS

Ogres
Lord:
Khan

Hero
Firebelly
Firebelly
BSB


4 tribesmen
4 tribesmen
3 bruisers
3 bruisers
1 Saber tooth

2 Yetis

4 bombardiers
4 bombardiers

2 mourn fang
2 mourn fang

1 Kin eater
(I'll update with Items when I know what he had)

So the battle:

We ended up playing diagonal with some really annoyingly plced scenery, he depolyed heavily on his right flank and i played to the middle and my left with the seaguard and sisters while my griffin, dragon and mage sat on my right looking directly at some bruisers and 2 units of bombadiers.

He got first turn and basically just ran at me, sweeping accross most the board, his magic was a bit naff but still meanacing and I found myself feeling utterlu cornered already. All his shooting went into a unit of seaguard and he smashed about 7 of them down, but they stayed like the look little elves they are.

My turn one, I do a whole bunch of swift reforms and dance around a little, my dragon went off into a unit of bruisers, the dragon even getting the flank looking down his army (nom nom) while my mage went and charged the sabertooth that was being annoying and trying to redirect my dragon princes. I formed up a new battle line slightly angled to my left while my heavy charges going forward on my right. Magic winds game me 3 PD (this would turn out to be a theme for everysingle one of my magic phases, leaves a player a little pissed off). Shooting, sisters and Elu bow unloaded into the unit of tribesmen with the Khan and firebelly bearing down on me taking 8 woulds off the tribesmen, wooo go sisters (I rolled well). Seaguard shot at a unit of bombadiers killing a few while my skysloop which had already gone wide left behind the enemy killed a yeti that was getting really really close. Mage won his combat, dragon won his, BUT only because I used his breath weapon (I really needed to win and be ready for a flank combo charge on the bombardiers) (just a quick for the record... that dragon move of 7 is PAINFULLY slow, can we maybe get a cheeky 8???) ANYWAY his Khan unit (next to the BSB) manages to amazingly fail 2 leadership 9 roles and runs away like he wimp he was (it would have be a very different game if that hadn't happened) he rallies next turn about 10 inches back)

turn two: Gorger arrives and is lovingly placed behind my sisters on my left flank. he moves everying up again and is now around 6 inches from my army with ogres just everywhere. His magic is HUGE. sister unit gets royally buggered, down to 4 sisters (yet they stay! brave sisters, *wipes tear*) shooting he has a go at the dragon princes whom hes just realised are hanging out on his flank, kills one off. My turn two, realizing if i don't do something this turn then its all over... Dragon and princes charge into the flank of his bombardiers, my sisters unit with my loremaser run forward and now that there are so few of them they cheekily fit in a gap in his battle line outside of charge arcs (mwhaha), the lothern swift reform and keep moving in and angled backward move to put just enough inches between them and the ogres and to keep out of charge arcs. magic 3PD again. yay. *bitter resentment at the wasted points* The griffon flys up behind his lines and the second group of bombardiers. Shooting, sky sloops ends the last yeti, Lothern sea guard kill off the second unit of bombadiers. Combat, I win and both the dragon and princes go into the front a unit of mourn fang.

Turn 3 he charges my unit of sisters with a unit of bruisers, I elect to flee thinking I can flee 10 inchs and still be out of his charge arc on his second unit of mournfang, but he rolls an 11 on his charge rang and now my loremaster and sisters are all dead. He also charges his gorger into the rear of one of my sea guard, but I've been sneaky and not allowed him any other charges. Magic, he kills off a bunch more seaguard and leaves me upset about that. Oh he also miscasts though nothing really happens, he takes a wound thats it (FYI the miscast table is a lot more forgiving towards armies like orges with all their W and T) anyway, I win the combat with the dragon and princes turn to face all his units bums, although he's out of my charge ranges now. In my turn I move everyhing up, shoot again finally killing the one reamining tribesman sitting in the generals unit and thats that, (oh 3PD again).

His next turn he charges a unit of seaguard who had nowhere else to so in the face with 2 mournfang, his remaining unit of 6 ogres (inc firebelly2 and BSB) into tyeh flank, and his general goes into the front, my stand and shoot reaction killing firebelly 1. SO that unit gets butt rapped hard, 17 models removed from combat and despire hitting first I didnt do a single wound (not a single one! even at his mournfang with my spears, not one, none) the run and are cut down by his mournfang. my second unit of lothern (after two turns of fighting) finish off his gorger. Next I charge my 4 Dragon princes into his lone Khan (its at this point I want to point out that he had an Ogre Crossbow, for EIGHT points (like are you kidding me!!!!) which he used in his charge reaction (not saying anywhere that this crossbow couldn't) outright killing a dragon prince on easy rolls, this is NOT an EIGHT point item) my dragon and griffon mage into his remaining unit of bruisers while my 2nd unit of lothern, fresh from their gorger encounter shoot and fail to do anything to his mournfang (1 had 1wound left, I thought if I could just get lucky...) anyway my dragon and mage slaughter his bruisers and have a cheeky reform. My dragon princes fail on the charge with devistarting charge to do anything at all to his Khan before his Khan kills off 2 princes easy as you like. my champion held.

In his turn he continued running his unit of 6 ogres away from the battle and out of my arcs while his general finished off my lone dragon prince. In my turn I then charge his general with seaguard, griffon mage and high prince on dragon. HOWEVER this is where the game changed dramatically, I cast a simple buffing spell to which he rolled double 6 to dispel, on the miscast he rolled a 3, had to remove his caster and 2 ogres, that coupled with my inevitable defeat of his Khan gave me the game. OTHERWISE it wouldn't


(p.s. I might have got some of the turns wrong... but that's what happened)


Post game thoughts:

My ancient dragon could hurt him although I always got the charge. My sisters could hurt him, my dragon princes could sometimes hurt him (even though they always got the charge). I simply played better than him, getting 90% of the charges I wanted when I wanted yet if he hadn't blown up is fire belly in turn 6 trying to dispel, he would have won the game.

Do either of us think it was balanced... honestly No, in favour of the ogre khans army, (even defeated my opponent believes that). I won, due to him failing re-rolled leadership 9s early on and then because he blew himself up at the end, despite being completely in control all game. Neither of us think Ogres are the weakest, we both agree that for HBE, OK are simply too much, relying (it seems) on pure luck to win. YET that being said, the game was still excellent fun, so thumbs up)

HBE:
I really like the mage on pimped up griffon, it gives my mage a secondary roll when the winds of magic conspire against you, used as support in other combats or just flying around out of arcs/LoS casting buffing magic, I took White magic on him for the second time, while I consider White magic crap now (and it didn't really feature in this game due to Winds rolls) It's still nice to make little buff tweak here and there.

Seaguard VS Spears... well you have done a great job at making this a tough call, the seaguard are a little more imposing and I think that helps as opponents focus a little more on them than they would do other targets, meaning that the other stuff lives a little longer. I like them.

sisters are about right, don't change them please, good ranged killy! expensive and fragile, leave um be.

Sky sloop... dammit I just like the model, useful though for playing like a dick.

[SpellArcher]

I played a dragon list a lot in 8th and ogres were always one of the toughest matches.

John, I remember a game of Curu's which he thought would boil down to whether he could get his Star Dragon into the Gutstar without losing too many wounds to Ironblasters. He couldn't and hence lost the game.

Spears are actually quite good,

I'm trying to understand the mechanics here Mal. In 8th Spears are not great, Ogres a classic example of why. Mournfang chew them up, as indeed do decent sized units of MI. In 9th Lethal Strike seems a good answer to Tusker Cavalry but the MI still look like an issue. Paying less for Spears is helpful but the unit needs to be able to fight too.

I guess I'm wondering if there has been a general decrease in killing power in 9th Age and hence an increase in the power of static res? I remember a game of Seredain's in 8th where he used ranks from Spears to break Steadfast on a Gutstar but this was only functional because he had hard combat characters in there too. Plus the Ogre player passed a lucky Break test and won combat anyway.

Well played Arlthain! Shooting has traditionally been a good weapon vs Ogres because they lack armour. M7 on the Dragon does limit it's power a bit I guess. Nice move passing through charge arcs with the Sisters, classic elf archer trick. It seems luck swang both ways here. Yes it hurt your opponent but your magic rolls hurt you. It seems like you deserved to win overall.

Sounds like an emotional game!

[Malossar]

Spears are actually quite good,

I guess I'm wondering if there has been a general decrease in killing power in 9th Age

This. They also gained AP (everything) and lethal strike vs. cav, MC, and chariots. Do you really want to charge those 2 mournfangs into my spears and watch me roll 3-4 6s? (standard deviation +1)

[Arlthain]

Cheers SpellArcher, it was emotional, people just don't seem to get that!

[SpellArcher]

Do you really want to charge those 2 mournfangs into my spears and watch me roll 3-4 6s?

I don't run 'em and wouldn't even in 8th Mal.



What do you make of the Ancient Dragon/Thunder Cannon thing?