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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Hoping to be able to return to my preferred gaming style in 9th Edition, I decided to see if a Coven of Light list could be crafted.

Lord (365 pts, 15.2%):
- Archmage, 4th Level Asfad Scholar, Book of Arcane Power, ToSS (General, Light) – 365 pts
Heroes (377 pts, 15.7%):
- Mage, Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Pebble (Light) – 145 pts
- Commander, Canreig Tower, BSB, DA, GW, Shield, Dragon Mantle, ToGS (Light, Wilderness) – 232 pts
Core (604 pts, 25.2%):
- 21 x Archers, Full Command, Veteran Standard Banner, Flaming Standard – 239 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Standard Bearer – 125 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Musician – 125 pts
- 5 x Lancers, Mount’s Protection (5+) – 115 pts
Special (954 pts, 39.8%):
- 18 x Flame Wardens, Full Command, Banner of Becalming – 328 pts
- 5 x Knights of Rayma, Champion – 170 pts
- 3 x Sea Guard Repear, Repeating Shots – 240 pts
- 6 x Grey Watchers, Long Bows, Paired Weapons – 108 pts
- 6 x Grey Watchers, Long Bows, Paired Weapons – 108 pts
Rare (100 pts, 4.2%):
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts

Total: 2400 pts, 10 deployment drops, 2 scout drops, 2 units with vanguard moves.

This list lacks the dual 6th level Light spell, which was the signature aspect of the Teclis based 8th Edition CoL Lists, but may still be interesting to play.

The increased range of the Archmage’s spells should help. The Archmage will also have a +2 to his/her dispel attempts thanks to the book and the banner. As for Channeling, the army has a +5 (3 wizards, banner, and Master of Balance), so it should gain a PD and/or DD in each game turn.

What do others think of this 9th Edition CoL list?

Edits:
(1) Fixed Channel roll adjustment
(2) Fixed Archmage points, Asfad Scholar was counted twice. Revised the Grey Watchers units and points.
(3) Fixed Flame Warden Costs (hate this dual points thing :( ) and revised Core and Grey Watchers to compensate.


Last edited by Grenic on Sun May 01, 2016 8:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:23 am 
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Looks playable and without a clear weakness, I also like the presentation much better than what I was using for easy reading.

Have you considered what you would include for another 100 pts since 2500 is the aimed point cost for 9th age games at tournaments.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:25 pm 
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Giladis wrote:
Have you considered what you would include for another 100 pts since 2500 is the aimed point cost for 9th age games at tournaments.
For the Core, add 2 Archers, with the other points likely going to a third unit of Grey Watchers or a second Light Mage (make both 1st level) so that the army will always get an additional PD/DD.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:27 pm 
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I like the list. But you're missing a key element: high strength attacks! If your knights go down you don't have access to anything other than strength 4(!) in close combat. That's relying a little too much in my opinion on banishment and repears.

I would consider dropping the flame wardens and looking at Lion guard instead. They work very well with Light magic combat buffs as well as swordmasters.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:42 pm 
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I second Mal's thoughts about the lack of high str. attacks.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:01 pm 
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Looks OK to me :)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:06 pm 
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Based on the feedback, I now have two CoL options:

Set-up #1: Flame Warden Based CoL
Lord (365 pts, 15.2%):
- Archmage, 4th Level Asfad Scholar, Book of Arcane Power, ToSS (General, Light) – 365 pts
Heroes (377 pts, 15.7%):
- Mage, Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Pebble (Light) – 145 pts
- Commander, Canreig Tower, BSB, DA, GW, Shield, Dragon Mantle, ToGS (Light, Wilderness) – 232 pts
Core (604 pts, 25.2%):
- 21 x Archers, Full Command, Veteran Standard Banner, Flaming Standard – 239 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Standard Bearer – 125 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Musician – 125 pts
- 5 x Lancers, Mount’s Protection (5+) – 115 pts
Special (954 pts, 39.8%):
- 18 x Flame Wardens, Full Command, Banner of Becalming – 328 pts
- 5 x Knights of Rayma, Champion – 170 pts
- 3 x Sea Guard Repear, Repeating Shots – 240 pts
- 6 x Grey Watchers, Long Bows, Paired Weapons – 108 pts
- 6 x Grey Watchers, Long Bows, Paired Weapons – 108 pts
Rare (100 pts, 4.2%):
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts

Set-up #2 (revised): Lion Guard Based CoL
Lord (365 pts, 15.2%):
- Archmage, 4th Level Asfad Scholar, Book of Arcane Power, ToSS (General, Light) – 365 pts
Heroes (375 pts, 15.6%):
- Mage, Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Pebble (Light) – 145 pts
- Commander, Canreig Tower, BSB, DA, GW, Dragon Mantle, ToGS (Light, Wilderness) – 230 pts
Core (636 pts, 26.5%):
- 21 x Archers, Full Command, Veteran Standard Banner, Flaming Standard – 239 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Standard Bearer – 125 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Musician – 125 pts
- 6 x Lancers, Mount’s Protection (5+), Champion – 147 pts
Special (923 pts, 38.5%):
- 18 x Lion Guard, Full Command, Banner of Becalming – 297 pts
- 5 x Knights of Rayma, Devastating Charge, Champion – 170 pts
- 3 x Sea Guard Repear, Repeating Shots – 240 pts
- 6 x Grey Watchers, Long Bows, Paired Weapons – 108 pts
- 6 x Grey Watchers, Long Bows, Paired Weapons – 108 pts
Rare (100 pts, 4.2%):
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts

Personally, I’m leaning toward Set-up #2 as this list mirrors my 8th Edition CoL lists, other than lacking a 4th RBT (which I still think is a unwarranted nurf under the 9th Edition Rules). For the 2500 point version, changing to dual 1st level Mages would be my preferred route (magic equipment on the first Mage remains unchanged, while the second Mage would be limited to 20 pts).

Thoughts?

Edit:
(1) Revised List 2 to add back Dev Charge.


Last edited by Grenic on Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:31 pm 
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I just wouldn't take KoR without the Dev Charge upgrade, it's just too good for them to miss out on (and under current rules it also affects the horses). The reason it was put in and 2A base was removed was to enable bus-mode by not paying for the 2nd attack, but for small units it's surely worth the points to enhance their role on the battlefield.

RE: flame vs lions - what is your thought process there? Lions lost stubborn, which was one of their key perks IMO for the CoL list in 8th. They could still get it but you'd need to invest in a suitable character and I don't see where the points would come from. By contrast, the flame wardens seem much more resilient and shouldn't be 'counter' whittled down by magic or ranged attacks so bad.

Is it the S6 attacks which you're after?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:57 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
I just wouldn't take KoR without the Dev Charge upgrade, it's just too good for them to miss out on (and under current rules it also affects the horses). The reason it was put in and 2A base was removed was to enable bus-mode by not paying for the 2nd attack, but for small units it's surely worth the points to enhance their role on the battlefield.
Good point. I will revise List 2 to add back Devastating Charge.

Ferny wrote:
RE: flame vs lions - what is your thought process there? Lions lost stubborn, which was one of their key perks IMO for the CoL list in 8th. They could still get it but you'd need to invest in a suitable character and I don't see where the points would come from. By contrast, the flame wardens seem much more resilient and shouldn't be 'counter' whittled down by magic or ranged attacks so bad.

Is it the S6 attacks which you're after?
I think the lack of the 2+ WS vs. magical attacks may be the bigger issue for the Lion based list. Typically CoL lists win by keeping as much of their Wizard Bunker combat capable until the later turns so that it can mop up weakened high point value units which are then added to the points generated by the banishment spell.

In 9th Edition we have to choose between the higher strength attacks and a Ward Save. Initially I felt that the WS was likely more important, but there is a case to be made for the Lions, hence the second list.

While the Lion based list is the one I’m more familiar with and likely easier for me to play, I do feel that the lack of a WS and stubborn will allow the DL and whatever the Lizzies are called now to likely roll right over this venison. The 9th Edition game designers clearly understood this problem, which is why they tried to address it with the inclusion of Innate Defence and the Valiant rule (But really, why the heck are the Lions stubborn vs. DL but not against a goblin!? They should be stubborn all the time and gain ItP when joined by a Huntsman, just my view.).

As for the Warden based list, this one will have trouble dispatching high value targets at the end of the game quickly, so my view is that this version may not be able win games decisively.

The other problem with the 9th Edition Rules CoL lists is the lack of a 4th Bolt Thrower and the fact that the ones we are allowed are too expensive. They should be 50 pts + 20 pts. At 80 points, the Crew should have Spears, Heavy Armour, Shield, and have the Weapon Master special rule. They are Sea Guard after all.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:31 pm 
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Stubborn is much rarer across the board now, although it feels so situational with lions now as to be unreliable without huge points investment.

RBT price has been up and down a little over the iterations. I wouldn't ask for those thigns if I were to ask for a buff - I'd ask for 3W ;).

RE: alternatives, sisters can now be 30" QtF and effectively S4 or better - could you not shift towards these for your fourth bolter?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:04 am 
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Ferny wrote:
RBT price has been up and down a little over the iterations. I wouldn't ask for those thigns if I were to ask for a buff - I'd ask for 3W ;).
Now that would be a good option, 60 points base, +20 for Repeating, which includes one extra crew member!

Ferny wrote:
RE: alternatives, sisters can now be 30" QtF and effectively S4 or better - could you not shift towards these for your fourth bolter?
While the Queen's Guard may be an alternative, I'm not sure that they can really fill the role of a war machine.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:35 am 
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I would go for flame wardens and add a redundant unit of 5 ryma knights to get the high strength attacks. It cost 160 points which could be saved here:

50 - Archmage: – Drop Asfad or Ward save, overkill with both.
25 - Mage: Level 1 – Drop him a level as you have sufficient spell selection.
14 - Commander: – Mithril is cheaper than your current build
35 - Flame Wardens - Banner is good but not essential.
36 - Drop either longbows or paired weapons on Grey Watchers and make them 5 a unit.

Alternatively you could drop a ryma champion or an eagle. You could also make your BSB shooty/avoidance with Great bow of Elu instead of defensive gear. He is not that durable even with 50 points of gear. T3 2+/5++ is roughly 10-30 r&f attacks on average, that means he can be taken down in 1-3 turns even with his small base.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:10 am 
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@chumchu, I came to the same decision to go with the Wardens instead of the Lions. As for the other suggestions, I too came to similar decisions on the Archmage, the Mage, and changes to the Grey Watcher's equipment. However, with the freed-up points I decided to go with another Mage and some other tweaks.

Current Set-up: Flame Warden Based CoL
Lord (315 pts, 13.1%):
- Archmage, 4th Level, Book of Arcane Power, ToSS (General, Light) – 315 pts
Heroes (459 pts, 19.1%):
- Mage, Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Pebble (Light) – 120 pts
- Mage, Level 1, Scroll of Shielding, Charm of Curesed Iron (Light) – 105 pts
- Commander, Canreig Tower, BSB, DA, GW, Shield, Long Bow, Dragon Mantle, ToGS (Light, Wilderness) – 234 pts
Core (618 pts, 25.8%):
- 19 x Archers, Full Command, Veteran Standard Banner, Flaming Standard – 221 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Standard Bearer – 125 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Musician – 125 pts
- 6 x Lancers, Mount’s Protection (5+), Champion – 147 pts
Special (908 pts, 37.8%):
- 18 x Flame Wardens, Full Command, Banner of Becalming – 328 pts
- 5 x Knights of Rayma, Devastating Charge, Champion – 170 pts
- 3 x Sea Guard Repear, Repeating Shots – 240 pts
- 5 x Grey Watchers, Long Bows – 85 pts
- 5 x Grey Watchers, Long Bows – 85 pts
Rare (100 pts, 4.2%):
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts

Total: 2400 pts, 10 deployment drops, 2 scout drops, 2 units with vanguard moves.

I decided to go with the Warden based list as the 4+ WS is just too good to pass-up.

From a magic point of view, the list features a Archamge that has +1 to Cast and +2 to Dispel. Further, the list will always get a PD and DD in every magic phase thanks to the +6 channeling (5 “wizards” + army rule).

The final question is around the Scroll of Shielding. Is it worth it in the list or should I go with the Tome of Arcane Lore instead to ensure that the Archmage gets Banishment?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:30 pm 
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I've revised the list based on the most recent HbE Army Book.

2400 Point CoL – V0.99.4
Lord (355 pts, 14.8%):
- Archmage, Asfard Scholar, 4th Level, Book of Arcane Power, ToSS (General, Light) – 355 pts
Heroes (450 pts, 18.8%):
- Mage, Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Pebble (Light) – 115 pts
- Mage, Level 1, Scroll of Shielding, Charm of Curesed Iron (Light) – 105 pts
- Commander, Canreig Tower, BSB, DA, GW, Long Bow, Mithril Mail, ToGS (Light, Wilderness) – 230 pts
Core (607 pts, 25.3%):
- 20 x Archers, Full Command – 210 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Standard Bearer – 125 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Musician – 125 pts
- 6 x Lancers, Mount’s Protection (5+), Champion – 147 pts
Special (488 pts, 20.3%):
- 18 x Flame Wardens, Full Command, Banner of Becalming – 318 pts
- 5 x Knights of Rayma, Devastating Charge, Champion – 170 pts
Rare (500 pts, 21.3%):
- 5 x Grey Watchers – 80 pts
- 5 x Grey Watchers – 80 pts
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts
- 3 x Sea Guard Repear, Repeating Shots – 240 pts

I revised the list to take advantage of the lower cost Asfard Scholar.


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:07 pm 
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I have revised the list based on v1.00

Lord (285 pts, 11.9%):
- Archmage, Level 3, Amethyst Crystal, ToGS, Charm of Cursed Iron (General, Light) – 285 pts
Heroes (522 pts, 21.7%):
- Mage, Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Pebble (Light) –115 pts
- Mage, Level 1, Tome of Arcane Lore, Obsidian Rock (Light) – 115 pts
- Mage, Level 2, Asfad Scholar, Book of Meladys (Light) – 150 pts
- Commander, BSB, HA, Shield, Daemon Hunter’s Helm, Gemstone Amulet – 142 pts
Core (606 pts, 25.3%):
- 19 x Spears, Full Command, Veteran Standard Bearer, Banner of Courage – 176 pts
- 10 x Archers – 90 pts
- 10 x Archers – 90 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Standard Bearer – 125 pts
- 6 x Elein Reavers, Bows, Champion, Musician – 125 pts
Special (467 pts, 19.5%):
- 18 x Lion Guard, Full Command, Banner of Becalming – 297 pts
- 5 x Knights of Rayma, Devastating Charge, Champion – 170 pts
Rare (520 pts, 21.7%):
- 6 x Queen’s Guard, Long Bows – 90 pts
- 6 x Queen’s Guard, Long Bows – 90 pts
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts
- 1 x Great Eagles – 50 pts
- 3 x Sea Guard Repear, Repeating Shots – 240 pts

Total Points: 2400
Models: 92
Channel: +6/+7

The big difference with this list from its predecessor lists is that this list is specifically designed to have the greatest chance of getting Banishment on the Level 2 instead of the Archmage. Generally speaking, I’m hoping to end up with Banishment and Burning Brightness on the Level 2 Mage.

Character placements are planned to be 3 casters (3rd Level, Dispel Scroll Mage, and the 2nd Level) would go into the Spear unit, while the remaining characters would go into the Lion Guard unit. As the BSB no longer has any honours, the unit will now gain the Stubborn Special Rule.

Being a CoL list means that the list needs to dominate the magic phase. With the combination of magic items and strong channelling bonuses the list brings to the table, on my magic phases I should always have the lesser of 6 or n+1 (“n” is the lower of winds result) more power dice than my opponent. On my opponent’s magic phase, I will only have n-2 fewer dispel dice then my opponent’s power dice (in fact, when the lower result is a 1, I will have more dispel dice than my opponent has power dice).

Areas of possible changes:
1. Replacing the 10 model Archer units with a 17 model Archer unit with FC as a bunker for the Archmage.
2. Dropping one of the SGR so I can increase the size of the Lion Guard unit.
3. Drop the Knights of Rayma for a Chariot Commander (DA, Shield, Lance, and Talisman of Supreme Shielding). If the swap were to be made, should this model also become the General?

Thoughts on the list and/or the possible changes?


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:53 pm 
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How do you feel about CoL now? You're clearly persisting with it despite your reservations - have you found a new angle (2nd level banishment?) or are you simply sticking with it til it proves your faith right or wrong?

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 10:22 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
How do you feel about CoL now? You're clearly persisting with it despite your reservations - have you found a new angle (2nd level banishment?) or are you simply sticking with it til it proves your faith right or wrong?
I will give 9th Edition a fair chance and will read the rule set and try to make the CoL or other magic focused lists work.

As for CoL, I'm looking to basically 5 dice the boosted Banishment spell or 3 dice the non-boosted version when I don't need a high S-stat. The inclusion of the Book of Meladys on the Banishment Mage is intended to help drive the spell home.

With the new rules governing the distribution of hits for combined units my other characters in the same unit are basically safe from most miscast results except Sorcerous Backlash, but this just means that I can get at least one more casting from the Banishment Mage.

As for the list, I'm now thinking about dropping the Knights of Rayma so I can expand the Lion Guard to 28 models along with swapping out the two Archer units for a single 17 model of Archers with Full Command. The plan would be to put three casters in the Archers and the BSB + one caster in the Lion Guard unit.

I do expect to move around the magic equipment a bit and give the BSB the Armour of Destiny. The plan is to get the MR(3) and the Charm of Cursed Iron in the Lion Guard unit.

Thoughts?


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