v0.99

[PadForce]

Soooooo the new rules are apparently out today, looking forward to reading 100% of it rather than the sneak peeks and we can then discuss ad nauseum!

[SpellArcher]

Does v0.99 mean it's almost at some kind of set point?

Ie, will it change much for the next few months?

[PadForce]

I think it means there will be one set of minor tweaks before v1 in April timeish. Not sure but i think those tweaks may be before the etc.. but thats not confirmed. After that the time periods between rule releases will be significantly prolonged compared to the current rate of releases.

The rules are due out at 8pm unfortunately so i have to tone down my excitement.

[Galharen]

I hope there won't be many changes as I already bought some parts for conversions for only few cents

[SpellArcher]

After that the time periods between rule releases will be significantly prolonged compared to the current rate of releases

Sounds promising.

I think it means there will be one set of minor tweaks before v1 in April timeish. Not sure but i think those tweaks may be before the etc.. but thats not confirmed.

Hmm, ETC's August isn't it?

[PadForce]

Ah is it August? Im probably getting mixed up on dates then. I dont follow the ETC scene so not sure.. just going by waht i read on the 9th age forum

[Giladis]

Does v0.99 mean it's almost at some kind of set point?

Ie, will it change much for the next few months?

By my count we are between 6 and 7 weeks before the final version and it makes me really excited. I can hardly believe we have reached this point

[PadForce]

Does v0.99 mean it's almost at some kind of set point?

Ie, will it change much for the next few months?

By my count we are between 6 and 7 weeks before the final version and it makes me really excited. I can hardly believe we have reached this point

yeah it is definitely a great achievement! I have informed the wife that i wont be speaking to her pater after the release comes out!!

[SpellArcher]

By my count we are between 6 and 7 weeks before the final version and it makes me really excited. I can hardly believe we have reached this point

Great news Giladis!

So I presume version 1 of the rules will then remain unchanged until after the ETC in August? Followed at some point by Beta testing of a version 2?

Personal View

Overall I'm happier because my Prince became viable again (Great Bow got Multiple Shots back). I quite like Steady Aim replacing Quick to Fire on the Sea Guard because now you can move and shoot in a deep block, ready for combat. You can also shoot over stuff better. The Arcane Items took nerfs but are still usable.

Swordmasters lost the 6+ Ward but this isn't a deal-breaker. Worse is the loss of the +1 to hit, which substantially reduces damage. These wouldn't be so bad except for the loss of the 5+ Ward banner, which I suspect means SM's are now only viable MSU and that only because of Initiative 6. Lion Hordes look dodgy without it too, though the Skirmishing 15 still looks OK. I'm not quite getting why the book pushes players further away from infantry blocks and towards MSU/Avoidance, given that this was arguably stronger to start with.

That said the Sylvan Elf combat blocks for example look even less viable, especially compared to the now supercharged Treekin.

[PadForce]

I've had my first read and am generally happy. Nice little bits like cheaper msu Lions, buff to ridden Frostie etc. The change to how the young dragon works will make a massive difference in possible variability of characters on monsters.

Will be theory hammering a lion chariot huntsman, DP character bus with new banner, and many ridden monster builds tomorrow. Queens companion character is now an even better combo with Seaguard, to an almost ridiculous degree!

Bolt throwers up by 5 points, arg!

One thing I can't really understand is the cost of the honours. The Ryma honour is sooooo expensive, a 75 point charge to get devastating charge and have 1 more monster. That would make a tooled star dragon riding Ryma Lord circa 650 points!!! Just not sure on the new Loremaster price point too.. Suffering a big defensive nerf with the 2 changes to the SM special rule and then costing 305 before equipment seems a bit crackers. As mithril Mail went up 5 points too that's 415 for Loremaster prince, mail, rr, scroll, GW. I certainly won't be fielding him at that cost!

Book of meladys and annulian both nerfed - I didn't use either but would be interested to know why they were seen to need a nerf. I don't think a single HE player at the Cardiff GT took the crystal for example.

Anyway as I have said happy with the update.. Only slight shame is complete pricing out of the Loremaster imo.. I'd be very surprised to see him taken now.

[Giladis]

@SpellArcher: 1.0 should remain like that until roughly October, when adjustments will be made where necessary based on gathered data during these 5-6 months and an update will released. What it will called we haven't decided yet, but it is highly unlikely the game would change so much to warrant a 2.0 classification.


@PadForce: Ryma cost is just monster tax, it first came without Devastating Charge but the ABC managed to get it to sweeten the deal a bit. As for the Master of the Canreig Tower it was high time for him to pay for his access to so many spells. Just do the math and you will see that unlike before he has to pay for all the rules he has.

I plan to use him, but I think the trick is not trying to make him into a better wizard, but to use the stats of the Prince and equip the prince for battle and use the magic as a bonus, because even though nerfed signatures and attributes are real mighty.

This is how I will roll in the future:
Mithril Mail, Talisman of SShielding, Divine Icon, Great Weapon > 415 pts

There are going to be very few characters as versatile as him.

[PadForce]

@SpellArcher: 1.0 should remain like that until roughly October, when
@PadForce: Ryma cost is just monster tax, it first came without Devastating Charge but the ABC managed to get it to sweeten the deal a bit. As for the Master of the Canreig Tower it was high time for him to pay for his access to so many spells. Just do the math and you will see that unlike before he has to pay for all the rules he has.

I plan to use him, but I think the trick is not trying to make him into a better wizard, but to use the stats of the Prince and equip the prince for battle and use the magic as a bonus, because even though nerfed signatures and attributes are real mighty.

This is how I will roll in the future:
Mithril Mail, Talisman of SShielding, Divine Icon, Great Weapon > 415 pts

There are going to be very few characters as versatile as him.

Hey,

Yes I have been using the Loremaster as a versatile combat character... but Imo that's exactly why it's significantly worse now that he costs about 60 more for a mithril Mail build, and any other build is 35 - 50 more but with a worse armour save. A 415 point character leading your combat units into battle is going to die very quickly with his reduced defence. Run him without a scroll to make him better in combat and that's another 100 points you have to shell out on a support (actually 2nd support given the LM has only signatures) Mage somewhere else in your army. I'd rather take a lvl 2 and an entire unit of sword masters.

[Furion]

Internal balance and design is so bad, it warrants a video rant from FollowFurion.

No idea how external balance looks like - will have to play a bit to know.

[Ferny]

My thoughts, cross posted:

Core: Internal balance feels much better. I think I'd take anything now (except archers!).

1. Seaguard - interesting changes.
Points: An extra point base plus an extra point ambush means ambush+heavy armour is now basically not an option IMO, which makes an interesting dynamic between ambush or non-ambush (and HA). This kinda existed in .11, but you could have your cake and eat it at a relatively expensive 15pts. Good move for those who wanted to retain HA as an option, well played ABC. It also means IMO we won't be seeing big ambushing blocks - I'll probably still take a unit as ambushers to help deal with war machines, but I'll stick to min-10 no command (so I'll lose the semi combat threat of 15-18 if I'm not going after war machines). However, I think for small units we're now over-costed unless this is an intentional ambush tax (and even then, we're over-costed for non-ambush seaguard) - we're paying for Weapon Master which hasn't been great for them since 0.9, and FIER and SIER, neither of which are used at low points.
@ABC - was this an intentional decision to favour spears? Is there any chance in a future iteration we could drop weapon master and save e.g. 1ppm and/or staggered pricing like spears.
Rule change: sideways move but IMO a nerf, though I don't mind cos they were dominating and the overall meta power level has decreased.

2. Spears - seem solid/usable now - well played ABC. I'd consider small blocks of 15 or 20, probably without armour. Reasonable mage bunker for the points too, especially with option of veteran banner.

3. Archers - I still don't see it with these guys - what am I missing? Which match-ups do they do well at? Which do they do OK at? What is their role? How do they compete with other options in core? How do they compete or complement other shooting options?

4. Helms and reavers - basically as before. Both usable in various ways.


Special: overall not major changes IMO - some subtle buffs, mostly some IMO minor nerfs. Biggest change is SM but I don't think they were that viable in singles play anyway. Big winners are PG from meta and KoR from banner IMO.

1. Phoenix Guard - got a buff through the meta with less holy attacks kicking around (e.g. light, annointed, I assume this was a general universal trend but haven't checked other books). Can't get my head around pricing structure but they seem basically as before but meta improved - if you would take them at previous points in new meta you'd take them still at current. I think if I were to go for a block of special infantry it would now be these.

2. Lions - loss of stubborn is a possible hurt (cos I don't rate lion character and honourless nobles are gonna be like hens teath, unless you build specifically to give these dudes stubborn). I'm still working out their role in my army - feel they could fit as a small unit for some extra S6 punch with decent enough save (with or without skirmish - poss without to save on points). Might they work as a big horde with some sort of magic support? Skirmish still good on them? Dunno - haven't run these boys in 9th yet, but mostly cos of list design I think.

3. Swordmasters - I definitely plan to take them as 5-man chariot/eagle squads. I don't think I'll take them in bigger blocks - too swingy/match up dependent, and no rhyma banner to protect them now (despite the lack of synergy in .11). I've generally been agin this change until now, but re-reading the suggestion above I quite like +1 to hit, no distracting, blurry/hard target, no 6++, and points as required by RT/BB. This way they retain their elite choppyness, they crumble to any return attacks, and they gain some (smallish) protection from one of their weaknesses (mass BS shooting) but are still vulnerable to templates, MM, magic generally and return attacks.

4. Grey Watchers - took a (minor) nerf to their arrows and unit size but a flexi-buff to their bows - seems OK. I'd like the options to be more customisable (e.g. scout +Xppm, bitter arrows +Xppm) like wood elf scouts, cos now with queensguard back in their ranked up place and scout nerfed to 18", sometimes you might just want some skirmishers and scout/poison is wasted (e.g. bunker).
@ABC - Is this lack of customisation specifically to avoid (or make us pay for) avoidance bunkers?

5. KoR - no change - in a good place IMO atm. Plus a buff from the banner, which IMO is made from them...S7 cav unit which isn't blood knights, I think this might get nerfed at some point! Makes a KoR bus interesting too. Not too expensive either. Question - does it also affect their horses, like Dev Charge? Cos that's a brutal bonus if it is. I'd always look to have 7-8 with FC and banner in my lists now I think. Avoided the purge to rare also!

6. Reaver and Lion Chariots - still as before (10pts hike on lion reasonable).

7. RBT - this *might* make multi-shot less attractive. Also *might* make RBT less attractive generally, when compared to our other shooting. If so, well played ABC for a mere 5ppm upgrade nerf. But it migth not, cos they serve the role they serve and we might take them regardlss (we used to take the damn things when they were 100 IIRC!).


Rare: We have rare choices again! Well done on re-populating it!

1. Sisters - I think I'm OK with these gals in this iteration. Still useful, very vulnerable, helps give skirmisher role back to SW (and now lions) and removes the avoidance play. Points are IMO OK.

2. Sky Sloop - I actually have no idea! Without upgrades it *feels* too expensive for something so vulnerable, but actually looking at it more closely it now has the much requested S5 *and* RBT comparable shooting, so maybe for 120 it's a good multi-purpose unit. 40pts for the buffwagon feel high (30 feel better, but I don't really know why). Also no idea how useful the storm pennant is. Intrigued.

3. Eagles - now rare - no prob.

4. Fire and Frost Pheonixes - both still do what they do and have a role, whether just one, one of each or double of either (or some combo with dragons and/or mounted pheonix). Fire had a nerf but I think is still OK. Rule seems cleaner, simpler, more streamlined.


Magic Items: All better, or at any rate more usable...although most of them feel quite situational...which maybe is good because it means no auto-includes! On balance, good job ABC.

1. Bow of Elu - glad it isn't stuck with handmaiden any more, although I'm not sure in what circumstance I would take it - usually it'd be cheaper and generally buffier to take the handmaiden honour *instead*. Maybe on a loremaster BSB for maximum utility character, if you're planning avoidance? Maybe on a handmaiden to save on arrows and gain true S5AP without MS penalties? So while I like the change I'm not actually sure I'd use it!

2. Shard of Nullification Spear of Blazing Dawn - seems OK, but IMO restricted to warden hero or lord otherwise your combat foot character won't survive to wield it!

3. Daemonhelm - as before - usable in different builds, sound.

4. Gleaming robe - cool subtle buff - can now take screaming blades with him (including if mounted/eagle). Only downside is too expensive for mages, with no space for arcane items...and why would you protect them this well anyway (unless you wanted a cheap spellcasting general) - I would definitely reduce the points on it e.g. 35 for heroes. For AMs it seems solid, but they seem over-costed currently vs Lv2, so...

5. Cloak of stars - didn't like it before, not keen now. Is this better or worse than MR? What units would you take it on? Might be good but I can't get my head around it...!

6. Shard of Cenyrn - not sold on it - I've been taking it a lot lately but never needing to use it. Re-roll all rather than re-roll failed, but still taking a wound, is harsh. Still, it reduces variance and is only 10pts, so should be solid.

7. Book and Crystal - both have defined role, both look sound and reasonable for points despite nerf to rules. I'm not sure which I favour (especially in competition with scroll, and with limited number of arcane characters)...hmmmm...probably sound.

8. War banner - purpose made for the Knights Rhyma (see above). I've seen folks saying it'll work well with PG, but I'm not sold - they would need to get the charge and it doesn't work on the grind, I think I'll stick with razors there.

9. Becalming - no longer a veteran option, and harder to fit in (not possible on sisters either!) - this is probably what stops it being auto-include. No need for it with AM, but useful without if you can get it in. Maybe in a small bunker of lions?


Characters and Honours: I think the ones we take are fine but there are others which just don't compete yet.

Prince of Rhyma - good that the monster mash option still exists (with tax) for those who want it, although I don't think it's for me. Also good that it's generally limited (bring on greater limitation of ordanance/cannons now!). Super expensive though. Also a shame, as noted, that it isn't Dev Charge for character and Mount for X points, plus mount doesn't count towards monster limit and add that cost on to the young/dragon/ancient, for a cav honour option.

Loremaster: As noted since sneak peak, loremaster was nerfed every which way (and may now be overcosted), but he's still a better option than an AM IMO. I think I'll either still go loremaster or start spamming Lv2's (scroll+3 spells)...which might in turn change my list towards light council...? Shame cos I love the flexibility he gives - really think Lv3/4 wizards need some love across the board right now, things have swung too far the other way...but that isn't a HBE specific issue.

Loremaster hero: got 10ppm cheaper, which is something but won't affect whether you take them or not given the high base price. I didn't like them much before, but with the price hike on big daddy I'm considering them more now...although probably still mages over these boys.

Fleet Officer - seems solid but outcompeted by other options I think. Note also lost ambush on eagle or skycutter (the latter possibly necessary with new rules?, the former no biggie), and unless I'm missing it also lost the 5++ when mounted.

High Warden - minor nerf and accompanying point drop. I expected this...and note he still retains his divine attacks (and gains magical!). Still solid for BSB or Shining Spear, although lost hero level 2+/2+/4++ option.

Handmaiden/Shadow Prince - more or less as before IMO, but streamlined. Was taken and will still be taken, even without skirmish sisters.

Huntsman - minor buffs. Still not convinced he'll be taken. If foot restriction were lifted then maybe (would it be auto-include then?). Am I dreaming to ask for lion cav mount for him, like giant elk for wood elves? It would be slower than all our cav and not (necessarily) barded and no lion cloak (mounted) so I don't think it'd be OP.

Asfad Scholar - maybe? If we took AMs then maybe more? Might be nice on a Lv2 with extra spell item, especially with other Lv2s to help you 'pick' which ones want boosted range, and he'd have4 spells then.

OotFH - I'm not sad pheonix is gone. MC Dragons are interesting (though we're restricted to 2 without the other honour, not that we'd necessarily want loads). I'm not sure how useful/viable griffon/young/dragons are for non-upgraded characters, but the option of high armour, fireborn, ward, D3 stomps, breath weapon and magic into combat sounds pretty intense. Flaming sword is good too. Only sad bit is no change to profile, so WS and A of the wizard remain low (and no lance). Still, definitely worth playtesting IMO.

Prince - works as CavPrince or [Ancient]Dragon Prince, but I don't think we'll see him on foot without honours, except in abuild revolving entirely around lions perhaps?

AM - see loremaster - too expensive.
Mages - see loremaster also - might now be a good alternative.

Commander - BSB options include flame, handmaiden or loremaster IMO, with naval officer a far 4th. Non-upgraded seems unlikely unless on a mount of some sort. (Would we take him on a young dragon if we could?).


Overall I'm happy with the book. Very usable. Worked out most of the problems and solved some I didn't really appreciate until I saw the solutions. Time will tell on the new sky boat, and for that matter the dragon mages. AMs (across the board) need some help still IMO, some of the honours need rebalancing against the others still IMO, but other than that it's only really archers which I think absolutely struggle in this book. Good work

[SpellArcher]

Archers are what they are. They shoot light stuff. 30" >> 24". Not awesome but viable I think. Bigger unit can be a bunker (good for long-ranged Paths), Flaming maybe, buff target. Spears cheaper but when this issue was debated in 8th general opinion was that they needed to be better, rather than cheaper, to be worth taking. I guess there are lists where a deep HA block makes sense. The small bunker is an option but we're not getting the utility DE's got with the Dagger in 8th that made it tick.

KoR - no change - in a good place IMO atm.

Agree completely. Why change the Banner to buff their offense and nerf defence? Why not encourage decent-sized blocks of Lions and Swords by leaving the Banner as it was? Making infantry blocks viable is the eternal battle of Warhammer rules-writing. It's so easy to nerf them. Skirmishing Lions look decent, not least because they're Stubborn in woods.

How many players actually take RBT without the repeating upgrade? If not many, maybe the split needs to be 50pts/30pts or something? I'd missed the nerf to the Shard. It hurts but still a strong item IMHO. If you have a grinding Prince with decent saves I can see you might consider it a luxury. 50pts seems a bit steep now for Book of Meladys but I'd take it if I had a second caster to carry scroll. 55 for Crystal? What it does now isn't that great. 50 for simply +1 DD instead would be balanced I think.

[Galharen]

Ok, I have the first game with new draft behind me. I played vs dwarves yesteday.

The List I used:

-20 sea guards, ambush, HA, fcg
-30 Archers, fcg
-2x6 Knights of Ryma, champ
-2x sky sloop naked
-2x bolt with multi
-14 Swordmasters, champ, mu
-10 Sisters with long bows
- BSB on foot, queens pimp, bow of elu, some armour
- Archmage, 3lvl on young dragon, Fire Order honour, anti-warhammer combo

We played diagonal, with dwarves castled in the corner. I have to say that our shooting is now powerful, we can deal significant damage from the distance. However this is not the kind of list I want to play. I want to give Swordies a shot, but they die so quickly..

[SpellArcher]

I want to give Swordies a shot, but they die so quickly..

I think 14 is what I will take. More and a big target will be on them. I'm looking at the 5+ Ward spell here.

[Galharen]

Ah, I forgot, sisters are now also amazing, 30' and +1 to wound is a perfect weapon vs monsters, war maschines and so on. well, I simply outshooted dwarves yesterday