Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

All discussions related to games of fantasy battles such as AoS, T9A, KoW, MESBG, WAP, Warmaster, etc go here, including army construction, comp creation, campaign and scenarios design, etc...
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Galharen
Master of Brushes
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm
Location: Poznan/Hannover

Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#1 Post by Galharen »

Enjoy:
This article is one of many in which the Rules Team Support group will be sharing some sneak peeks into the upcoming changes to the army books. Our intent is not just to let you know what to expect, but to also let you know the rationale and thought processes that went into those changes. So, without further ado, here's a sneak peek of some of the changes you can expect to see for the Highborn Elves.

Highborn Elves had been on a bit of a ride when it came to power level, and was considered to be above the targeted power level for the 0.12 release. Below is a list of upcoming changes to the book, in no particular order. In the following descriptions when I say "we," I mean The Ninth Age. Technically, the book was analyzed and amended by members of the Rules Team, the Balance Board, and the Army Book Committee.

Army Special Rules

“Last of Their Kind” was added to reduce flying monster spam (a trend throughout the project). The rule limits the number of dragons and phoenixes available to the HBE player to max 2 in any combination.
The Lion Fur Cloak was deemed problematic because it was under-costed (especially good with Master of Canreig Tower) but also because it breaks the theme of the army. The 6+/5+ innate defense gave HBE characters access to better armour than what armies that are considered to be the well-armoured have access to. Heavy armour + Lion Fur is in fact better armour than the plate armour of DH, EoS, and WDG. The Elven characters come with other great properties and are therefore not supposed to excel at defense.

Honours

Master of Canreig Tower saw a price increase and One of a kind restriction to reduce the number of duplicate spells which could be spammed. This was demonstrated to be taken in preference of an Archmage was and often an auto-include.
High Warden of the Flame: Bestowing Divine attacks to the unit he joins was considered a bit too good and overstepping existing item, so it got swapped for another weaker unit buff ability (magic attacks).
Queen's Companion: Added poison darts & scout to make the unit unique.
Royal Huntsman saw a swap in rules and will benefit from being the only character with access to Lion Fur (because he’s a Huntsman). Added immunity to fear and terror for him and the unit he joins. He'll no longer be able to do multiple wounds on chariots, but instead focus strictly on Monstrous/Monster hunting.
Prince of Ryma: As the flying circus is a specific play style, it was important not to remove it as an option for players: therefore, theHonourwill counteract the default restriction on the Last of their Kind rule so someone wishing to focus on this style can still do so.
Order of the Fiery Heart: Removal of Fire Phoenix from mounts as it overshadowed the dragon mounts by a long shot, removal of damage and missile keywords for casting into CC he is part of is a big thing, as it goes well with the warrior mage image as well as adding the option to purchase the Dragon Armour.

Units

Some of the Core units were slightly tweaked in the points domain to encourage smaller units. Sea Guards lost Quick to Fire in exchange for a new rule, as it was observed of being the go to choice of core infantry. No big changes were done since the Citizen Spears and Citizen Archers were at the desired power level, so Sea Guard had to be tweaked to fit in.
Swordmasters: A change to their Sword Sworn rule, as it was seen as problematic, but they still keep their role as anti-infantry shock troops. They now ignore Parry and Distracting rules, which gives them a steady damage output against their intended targets.
The loss of skirmish for QG was implemented as they were too good in shooty avoidance lists, as well as a price increase for longbows so as not to be an no brainer auto include. Gained access to a 25 pts magic banner.
The Sky Sloop was deemed too weak and uninteresting. It used to be a mobile shooting platform that did not bring anything of great value to the army, so its design got a little twist. The Sky Sloop will have Volley Gun option only, but it is increased in strength and reduced in number of shots - although its keeps AP(1) - so in terms of shooting power it is around the level of the RBT, with a preference for heavily armoured targets. Secondly, the chariot's base strength was raised so that it can work as an actual CC support unit. Thirdly, since it is not a well protected model(T4 W4 AS 5+), it got theHard Target special rule to be able to survive in hostile territory a bit and kept Quick to fire as to remain a solid shooting platform.

The greatest design change, however, was giving the Sky Sloop buyable options to become sort of a buff wagon:

Storm Pennant is giving the model lightning attacks in CC (both impact hits and regular attacks), and the bound spell (Thunderbolt) at PL(5) for increased ranged damage potential.
Aldan Warhorn is a passive aura effect that reduces WS of all enemy units within 6" of it, providing an edge for our CC units as both a defensive and offensive boost, depending on the situation.

TL;DR Sky Sloop

Moved to Rare section.
May no longer add extra models to the unit.
Increased cost for the base model.
2 Buff wagon upgrades, only one per model.
It kept the option of being a mounted option, but only for characters with the Fleet Officer Honour, and it lost the 5++ save.

Dragons

Keeping with the traditional image of HE being masters of dragons we’ve worked to make this image a reality on the battlefield. In this update you’ll be able to field the Young Dragons as Monstrous Beasts and therefore be able to utilize armour and equipment from the rider (it's ok dragon lovers: breathe).

Due to technical issues there are no audio recording of this review, so no audio snapshots either. We apologise for the inconvenience, but following this review we made sure to improve and have audio recordings for the remaining reviews.

All the best,
The Ninth Age
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#2 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I read them earlier with the comments from the players. It only confirms for me that it was a right decision to move to KoW and I don't see myself coming back to Warhammer. 9th Age goes towards the opposite direction to what I hoped it could. Which is pretty ironic because apparently MSU is now a chosen style for HE. At least by Rules Committee (as some players cry laud they "have" to play this way).

Yes, "enjoy" :p
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Galharen
Master of Brushes
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm
Location: Poznan/Hannover

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#3 Post by Galharen »

I was really enjoying my new Swordmaster as I hoped to use them again competetively, but now it seems I'm painting them only for the glass cabinet purpose #-o :D Still makes fun :D

The way how the 9th age Rules Committee introduces the changes is still unknown to me and I can't find the right pattern of their itterations :roll:

As the rule book is pretty nice written, the army book for high elves makes me doubts.
Lets wait and see, maybe I can spam my oppenent only with dragons :lol:
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#4 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Sorry to end your hopes but:
“Last of Their Kind” was added to reduce flying monster spam (a trend throughout the project). The rule limits the number of dragons and phoenixes available to the HBE player to max 2 in any combination.
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Galharen
Master of Brushes
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm
Location: Poznan/Hannover

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#5 Post by Galharen »

Maybe not:
Keeping with the traditional image of HE being masters of dragons we’ve worked to make this image a reality on the battlefield. In this update you’ll be able to field the Young Dragons as Monstrous Beasts and therefore be able to utilize armour and equipment from the rider (it's ok dragon lovers: breathe).
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Good for you! Have fun! Sadly, I don't think we are going to have our rematch though. :(
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Galharen
Master of Brushes
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm
Location: Poznan/Hannover

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#7 Post by Galharen »

don't say that, you could use your new conversions as a young dragons :)
Have you already painted the raider?;)
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#8 Post by Ferny »

Thanks for posting - I was so frustrated last night when I couldn't access this directly and there were no mirrors!

Pedantic though it sounds, I'll point out like I did there that they're not *all* nerfs. They're certainly *mostly* nerfs, and this has gone down particularly badly as our army is perceived, at least internally, as (slightly) underperforming (and externally as over-performing - go figure :roll: #-o ). This coupled with other armies apparently getting more love than nerf in the sneak peaks.

I'm not too worried though, I think they're still playable and it simply changes the meta and power level. I'll adapt.

Dragons (or ancient) dragons were always one of a kind so they aren't affected by the new rule - what it restricts is the number of pheonixes you can take in support (and if you're not taking dragons pheonixes are still limited to two, so no change there) - this just prevents double pheonix and (ancient) dragon lists...unless you take the new Rhyma honour means that his dragon does not count towards the maximum number of dragons/pheonixes...so actually it just taxes this particular monster mash build. I wonder whether there'll be anything else with the honour (increased WS/A etc)?

Young dragons were never one of a kind so the new restrictions, and the change to MB (MC really) doesn't change that. So if you wanted, you can still spam as many young dragons (and one dragon/ancient dragon) as you can cram points and lord/hero slots into...probably not the most competitive list...but maybe with new dragonmage rules.
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#9 Post by Ferny »

You could have a re-match in the arena of KoW :)
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#10 Post by Prince of Spires »

It feels a bit like they're trying to fix rules issues and imbalance with more rules... Not sure I like that approach.

The 'last of their kind' rule feels a bit exemplary. Apparently, too many monsters is seen as overpowered. Which means that the monsters are too strong due to some combination of rules and points and that the armybook lacks internal balance in this area.

Now, instead of actually fixing this issue, by adjusting the monsters, points or even the BRB rules, they add on an extra rule which only further complicates the whole thing. It's starting to feel a bit like playing 7th ed Skaven where everything has a bunch of rules attached to it which makes it completely unclear what is happening and why unless you know the army very well. Which is an issue for your opponent. In my opinion, they should aim for fewer rules, not more of them.

As for the LSG rules change, my prediction is that over the next iterations they will swing from the best infantry choice in core to the worst infantry choice in core and back. The problem with S3 T3 core infantry is that in general you need one thing out of it and it needs to do that well (provide bodies, shoot etc). Anything else is a bonus. If it doesn't perform its core task well then something else is a better option. LSG were great because their shooting was about as good as that of archers, but they came with the benefits of spears. Hence they were the best choice since you got 2 for 1. It remains to be seen of course, but my guess is that for shooting, archers will again be better. And if you need bodies then you go for spears. So, LSG will see little use.

The sky sloop changes sound interesting. I've always found it a bit 'funny' that a race with treasuries filled with the most exotic magical trinkets never managed to find one with some actual use on a battlefield...

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

I'm not quite getting the Phoenix-spam restrictions. If these can be avoided with an Honour, what's the point? If Swordmasters are losing their +1 to hit, that's a heavy blow. Presumably they keep Initiative 6, which is important. I like the sound of the Monstrous Beast Dragon. The 9th Age rules for ridden Monsters lack of bit of feel, for me because customisation is restricted. From a selfish point of view, the continued loss of Multiple Shots from the Great Bow pretty much stuffs my army. Sure, it's a niche case but I imagine other players have similar issues.

The main issue I still have with 9th Age is the substantial changes that get implemented, changing the character of armies. So one release favours certain units and players get those units. Next release it's different units. It must make collecting an army very difficult and frustrating. Not to mention being almost impenetrable to new players. At what point does stuff get locked down for a decent length of time? Because all the armies are changing you can't put a new draft in the context of other 'books'. By the time you've worked out specific tactics and balances, everything's changed again.
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#12 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Galharen wrote:don't say that, you could use your new conversions as a young dragons :)
Have you already painted the raider?;)
Technically I could but why would I play a game I no longer enjoy when I can use them as Drakons in the one I like? :)

No, moving to Southern hemisphere meant that I have little time for hobby at the moment. But I will do my best to get back on track asap.
Ferny wrote:You could have a re-match in the arena of KoW :)
I would be very happy to do so! :)

I am afraid that 9th Age has a lot of issues on many levels. I still want it all to succeed because I think it would have been fantastic to have a project like that working - written by players for players.

My main concern from the point of view of the game itself is that its complexity is not really addressed on the level of core rules. Things got changed but it looked to me as if the point of gravity was only shifted.

I also came to the conclusion that Warhammer 8th edition and now 9th Age is a game about warbands and high customization of powerful characters leading them. There is nothing wrong with that approach and I guess it puts 9th Age in between skirmish game and proper mass battle system.

But if you want a game that focuses more on units and allows you to create armies instead of warbands then 9th Age is not the system for you.
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
John Rainbow
Posts: 3550
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Location: PA, USA

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#13 Post by John Rainbow »

+1 for Rod here. I think the underlying rules need a rewrite.
Malossar
Something Cool
Posts: 2309
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:21 pm
Location: Northern, California USA

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#14 Post by Malossar »

Whelp,

I for one am embarassed about the Sneak Peek thread on the forum. Very doom and gloomy, no real rationalization and very much in the flaming personal attacking category.

I opened up a new sneak peek thread. Please post there!


I'm once again thankful for the ulthuan community as barring a few cases has always been very supportive.
Ptolemy wrote:Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)
Image
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#15 Post by Prince of Spires »

@Malossar; linky?
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
User avatar
Galharen
Master of Brushes
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm
Location: Poznan/Hannover

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#16 Post by Galharen »

here you are:

http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php? ... read-v2-0/

Well, I'm playing today my first game live in 9th age, I'm gonna try all the ''new stuff'' which means blocks of spears and SGM (sea guard marines :D ), prince or archmage on firephoenix, swordmasters, sisters and chariot units :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
User avatar
Aicanor
Rainbows
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Tower of Hoeth

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#17 Post by Aicanor »

Yes, the old thread there was quite funny. I think that is partly the result of HE players having wildly differing views of what HE army should be good at. And then someone mentioned 'overpowered'. Turns out it was relative to the power level that 9th age rules teams want to lower over all armies. Unfortunately it took a little too much text to clarify. :lol:
Ad one member who doesn't understand the word 'moderation' and the whole discussion goes to hell. Not pretty. :mrgreen:
By the way, were Swordmasters ever balanced?

*Going to dust off and assemble my two flying boats. Finally!*
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#18 Post by SpellArcher »

Aicanor wrote:By the way, were Swordmasters ever balanced?
Early 8th edition I'd say.

Powerful but with downsides.
User avatar
Giladis
The Merlord
Posts: 2908
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:13 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#19 Post by Giladis »

Aicanor wrote:*Going to dust off and assemble my two flying boats. Finally!*
I am thinking of doing the same thing as soon as I refurbish by 7 strong Chariot unit for UD.
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#20 Post by Prince of Spires »

Aicanor wrote:Yes, the old thread there was quite funny.
The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Does this remind anyone else of how the community used to react to GW rumors? Aaaahh!! the sky is falling, we're all doomed...

Nothing new here. It's exactly the same sort of discussion, except that now the rumors are sure to be true. The most important thing, from my point of view at least, is that I'm fairly certain the 9th age team isn't going to pull some End Times stuff on us. I'm sure Giladis would have warned us if they had... ;)
SpellArcher wrote:
Aicanor wrote:By the way, were Swordmasters ever balanced?
Early 8th edition I'd say.

Powerful but with downsides.
They were pretty decent in 7th as well. They would simply take out the front rank of anything they got into combat with, take no return hits and break stuff. And they were better then WL in 6th I think (then again, most things were).

@Galharen, how did your game go?

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#21 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:They were pretty decent in 7th as well. They would simply take out the front rank of anything they got into combat with, take no return hits and break stuff.
Players of other armies did get a bit frustrated with this. But you could shoot them of course. By the end of 7th it was mostly about the Star Dragon and his little horsed friends I think.
Prince of Spires wrote:And they were better then WL in 6th I think (then again, most things were).
I agree, playable in 6th but the best of a bad bunch of elite infantry really. The 7th book gave all of them a real boost.
User avatar
Giladis
The Merlord
Posts: 2908
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:13 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#22 Post by Giladis »

Yeah in 6th it was all about Armour of the Gods, Guardian Phoenix and Lion Guard to make them playable and it was a rather decent combo that served me well.
Furion
Posts: 498
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:30 am

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#23 Post by Furion »

Hey there. Long time no see ;) Anyone has any specific information regarding Sky Sloops in nearest update? I am interested in number of shots and cost. Does someone here would happen to confirm, that the number of shots is 4 and cost of unit is 100 ;) cheers!
[url=http://www.youtube.com/followfurion][b]FollowFurion[/b] on youtube for in depth WFB tactics analysis (click!)[/url]
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Sneak Peak - new changes, all nerfs

#24 Post by Ferny »

All the latest info on sky cutters is at the bottom of this link. Its had a complete re imagining since your triple list: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/blog/index ... army-book/

I've heard 140 bandied around as an estimated cost, but treat with a mountain of salt.
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
Post Reply