Dragons still viable?

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Ielthan
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Dragons still viable?

#1 Post by Ielthan »

What are the opinions on Dragon or Ancient Dragons mounted princes? No obvious builds really occurred to me.

I noticed the charm of cursed iron for 20pts which gives bearers unit a 5++ against artillery but wasn't sure if that would affect the dragon, given the force shield (model gets 5++ vs ranged) is 70pts. Same with the gem of fortune (ranged attacks reroll 6's to wound against unit) which would make it largely immune to small arms fire.

Given how much cheaper a griffon is, and the ability of the prince on top to be a wizard, I'm wondering are our big bad star dragon princes still a good choice?

Also is it worth going defensive items on monster mounted characters at all?
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#2 Post by PadForce »

Yo. Both the reroll6s and ironcurse will work for dragons. I think with those they have potential, but even at t7 will go down to shooting. 70pt shield not worth it i think. Lucky shield for 5 points will also discard first hit. Problem is you cant fit all of these in as well as the +3s sword. You could fit them all in with the +2s sword.

Im going to try an annointed on fire chicken with the reroll6s item, plus reaver bow. He has a decent chance of coming back to life even if he dies, but hes mainly there to wake of fire people and look for that advantageous charge
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#3 Post by SpellArcher »

I haven't studied the builds enough but I'd have thought cannon scatter would be a big plus here.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#4 Post by Ielthan »

Well I played a game vs double cannon, I didnt really have any good targets for them, but i did notice that when you factor in reducing the scatter by the ballistic skill, the scatter is really minimal, probably not enough to miss even the small dragon base front on.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

That's interesting, I'll have to re-read that.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#6 Post by Ielthan »

I was rereading the rules for ridden monsters and it's somewhat odd; the armour and saves of the rider are completely irrelevant unless otherwise stated (i.e affect the model not the wearer). When the monster dies the rider dies, and the only the monster can be attacked. So purchasing any defensive stuff on the rider that doesn't affect the monster is pointless. So buying dragon armour for your dragon riding prince is completely useless. I guess it makes them a little more points efficient.

With that in mind I think I'm going to try the following prince out next week:

Prince
Ancient Dragon
Giant Blade
Lucky Shield
Iron Curse Icon
Gemstone Amulet
580pts

Probably vs double cannon. Should be interesting. Tough to take down with artillery, but massed poison or a solid searing doom could do the trick. Even if he gets into combat early, the dragon's low initiative will mean it will be tricky to keep him alive through the game. I do wonder if they shouldn't have gone the end times route a bit by adding wounds of the rider and monster (max 10?), but still ignore the defensive equipment of the rider.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

I'd have thought with T7, 7 wounds and 3+ AS he'd be pretty durable. The AS in particular is golden vs Poison. What troops are likely to take him down? Searing Doom is dangerous but HE's have very strong magic defence options. Is MR on the rider possible? I can see the temptation to go for Giant Blade but you're already getting a ton of S7 from the Dragon. IF is no longer a real thing because you can Scroll it plus he's likely to blow his own head off now.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#8 Post by Ielthan »

Having another look at the list, I'd like to give a Flameheart lvl 4 Archmage a go riding a flame phoenix.

The reason I'd avoid a lvl 2 is they can't take part in an aided dispel, so another lvl 2 is of limited value, and a sole lvl2 probably won't cut it. Whether you'd go for another lvl 2 on top of this (caddy?) I'm not sure. The advantage of the rebirth (potential game winning points denial), the built in ward save (now invaluable on monsters), and the quantity of S4 fiery death it can dish out would be pretty fun. Lore of fire now actually isn't bad at all, very low cast values, the no.6 spell (which you're likely to get on a lvl 4, I'm guessing flaming sword counts as a duplicate roll as you get it for free) is perfect for high elves, +1T and a 5++. Not having to worry about your mage getting sniped opens up a lot of options.

With the Book and MR3 rocks up at 560pts, not cheap, but tricky to get rid of, especially if they don't have artillery. Also as it's a new option might throw people a bit. Would love to see conversion for this.

Does anyone know rules as written if you cast flaming sword on a unit do they get hit by the lore attribute?
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#9 Post by Cold Phoenix »

As I understand it, in 9th an attribute is essentially a free second spell which is cast each time you successfully cast a spell. Because it's separate it doesn't have to target the same unit as the main spell, so you can cast Flaming Sword on a unit then use the attribute on any enemy unit which fits the targeting requirements.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

Cold Phoenix wrote:As I understand it, in 9th an attribute is essentially a free second spell which is cast each time you successfully cast a spell. Because it's separate it doesn't have to target the same unit as the main spell, so you can cast Flaming Sword on a unit then use the attribute on any enemy unit which fits the targeting requirements.
This.

I like the look of the automatic S4 Flaming hits the dragon inflicts on enemy in base contact but the Flamespyre is certainly interesting.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#11 Post by Cold Phoenix »

SpellArcher wrote:
Cold Phoenix wrote:As I understand it, in 9th an attribute is essentially a free second spell which is cast each time you successfully cast a spell. Because it's separate it doesn't have to target the same unit as the main spell, so you can cast Flaming Sword on a unit then use the attribute on any enemy unit which fits the targeting requirements.
This.

I like the look of the automatic S4 Flaming hits the dragon inflicts on enemy in base contact but the Flamespyre is certainly interesting.
I think the nice thing about the Flamespyre is that your mage can fly around burning enemy unit and casting spells without getting into melee. The 5++ and 2++ against fire are also nice, but a dragon's 3+ is better against low S non-flaming attacks.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

Both ways definitely have advantages.

In general, the dragon option improved because the enemy can no longer just pick off the squishy mage in combat. Of course you don't benefit from a fighting character's attacks. Against infantry though, with Attacks, Thunderstomp, Breath Weapon and Fiery Adept, it really doesn't need the help.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#13 Post by Ferny »

Ferny from T9A forum wrote:So with the new Ridden Monsters rule the Prince cannot be targeted directly, but nor do 'normal' armour or ward items stack onto the dragon (who has a tasty 3+AS mundane, which can't be improved).

Defence:
The following are the only ways I can see to kit out a dragon with any sort of ward save and other protection buffs:
(MA) Force Shield (70): 5++ vs ranged attacks (question - does this include ranged spells?)
(EI) Charm of Cursed Iron (20): 5++ vs artillery (question - are things like ironblasters counted as artillery now?)
(T) Obsidian X (45/30/15): MR3/2/1
(EI) Gem of Fortune (25) - re-roll '6's' to wound from ranged attacks
(T) Gemstone Amulet (15) - failed AS->4++ vs that wound (question - does this count where an AS was not permitted, e.g. 1, spell says no AS, e.g.2, where AP>4?)
(MA) lucky shield (5) - discount first hit
(T) lucky charm (5) - re-roll first failed AS
(EI) Cloak of stars (25) - +2 casting value on unit
(If I've missed any please let me know and I'll edit to add).

This is a kinda interesting collection because most of the best items are actually Enchanted Items (EI) rather than armour or talismans, and you can't take all the ones you might want, despite most of them being quite cheap.

Q1. Is the force shield (70) worth it over the charm of cursed iron (20)? The extra 50pts buys you protection vs small arms fire (and I think magic, in which case it could stack with MR for a max of 3++ vs magic (I'm assuming bolt throwers, ironblasters etc are artillery?)). I would argue that the biggest threat to our big bads is artillery rather than small arms fire so unless you're looking to combine with MR the force shield probably isn't worth it.
Q2. Given that they're mutually exclusive, which is more useful, re-roll 6's to wound from ranged attacks or 5++ from artillery? One protects more against small arms fire, the other against the big guns? For a dragon I'd assume the 5++ vs artillery is best?
Q3. Best of both worlds - if you're going for a max protection build, you could take force shield and gem of fortune for max protection against artillery and small arms fire (this does exclude MR options though). Anyone do this? Is it worth this much of a points sink into ranged protection?

For max, cheap(ish) protection I'd be tempted to go: lucky shield (5), charm of cursed iron (20), MR to taste (15/30/45). Depending on MR this leaves enough points for a +2-3S/A magic weapon. Anyone running this?

Offence:
In 8th, when the Prince was basically a delivery mechanism, TOTS was pretty much mandatory. Is that still the case in 9th with the Divine Icon (Holy Attacks)? For 15pts it isn't expensive, but it takes the EI slot so you can't access the Charm of Cursed Iron or the Gem of Fortune, leaving you stuck without a ranged ward unless you go the whole hog and take the force sheild for 70pts, which suddenly makes the divine icon very expensive.
Q. Is the trade off between ranged defence and CC offence sufficient to warrant taking the divine icon in the EI slot, and if so, do you take force shield or cheaper defence (e.g. lucky shield)?

Dragon vs Dragon Ancient:
How much of a difference does S/T/W 7 and A6 make, given that AS, thunderstomp, ward, breath damage etc are all unchanged? Is it worth the 100pts cost? (I gather the answer is yes!?).

If in 8th the prince was mostly a delivery mechanism, although with a great weapon or +S sword he could add his strength to the combat attacks, in 9th with ridden monster profiles you could instead take an archmage as your rider. This limits you to a none-ancient dragon and bans lucky shield or force shield, and reduces the number of attacks the model will pump out in combat (albeit just the rider attacks). If you decided *not* to take an ancient, is there still sufficient merit in taking a prince as the rider or is it a sound place to stick your archmage?


Analysis and questions for griffon princes and pheonix lords to follow at some point...
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#14 Post by SpellArcher »

I'm pretty damn sure that distance spells are Ranged Attacks and hence covered by the Force Shield. I feel there are several dangerous to the dragon. Even a 5++ alone (without MR) should be helpful here. Small arms I guess the obvious one is Poison, whether from Skinks, Pathfinders, Shadow Warriors etc.. It is a lot of points though.

The one-shot 4++ is stated to work where there is no armour save allowed. Ironblasters, RBT etc fire as Artillery Weapons, so the 5++ Charm covers them. Looks good value for points. Divine Icon does indeed look good, though general access to Holy Attacks might encourage alternatives to Ward saves? Eg I have 4+ Regen on my Prince instead.

Lucky Shield is good. The problem of course is that a S3 arrow or MM can trigger it. The good thing is, cannon armies often don't bring a lot of BS shooting, at least historically. Pure theoryhammer, I'd say Ancient Dragon should indeed remain much stronger than Dragon. Maybe if you pick a complementary Path on the Archmage?
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#15 Post by Prince of Spires »

Ferny wrote:Dragon vs Dragon Ancient:How much of a difference does S/T/W 7 and A6 make, given that AS, thunderstomp, ward, breath damage etc are all unchanged? Is it worth the 100pts cost? (I gather the answer is yes!?).
Theory hammering it, but I think probably yes. 7w vs 6w means that you can't get 1-shotted by artillery, and that you on average have a good chance of surviving 2 artillery hits. Which, while not worth 100pts by itself, is a pretty big deal if you want to conserve the points.

The other improvements, +1 ws, +1S, +1T and +1A, are a big improvement to its reliability. +1ws means you'll be hitting most stuff on 3+ instead of 4+. +1A means more dice, so more likely to get close to average and less likely to fluff all attacks. And Seredain has written extensively about the difference between S6 and S7. Though that was for 8th ed, I think the same logic applies here.

And of course, +1T means most things wounding you on 6's only. Which is great protection against anything.

So, all combined, I think that the improvements are worth a lot. If they are worth 100pts of course can only be determined by extensive playing. But on paper I would go for yes.

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Re: Dragons still viable?

#16 Post by Ielthan »

I guess the other question would be is an ancient dragon prince be the most competitive choice in a 2400pt list? I'm actually leaning towards yes. Taking one pretty much rules out a lvl4. However barring the option to take the crystal, is a lvl 4 really worth it? Nothing else in the list comes close to the hitting power of the ancient dragon.

I guess the next question would be how cannon rich do you see the field being? They've been generally nerfed, you can take less of them, it's harder for them to snipe, and now there seem to be a lot more ways to get into the backfield and threaten warmachines.

This is the type of list I can see being pretty competitive using the Ancient Dragon:


Prince, Ancient Dragon, Giant Sword, Lucky Shield, Charm of Cursed Iron, Gemstone Amulet 580

High Captain BSB, High Warden of Flame, Banner of Path, Lion Fur, Shield, Heavy Armour 206

Mage Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll 130 (Light)

Mage Lvl 2, Tome of Arcane Lore, Gem of Fortune (Light)


21 Coastal Guard, Heavy Armour, Full Command, Icon of Relentless Company 318

5 Reavers w/Natural armour 95

5 Reavers w/Natural armour 95

5 Reavers w/Natural armour 95


19 Swordmasters, Full Command, Banner of Dragon's Embrace 327


5 Dragon Princes, Champ, Standard, Gleaming Pennant 205

5 Dragon Princes, Champ, Standard 200

TOTAL 2396pts

With the light buffs at +3 to cast it won't be easy to take out the dragon, which will likely also have holy attacks so it's a real hammer with 10 s7 attacks, 4 usually hitting on 2's. It's defensively very much geared towards stopping cannon balls rather than small arms. If the dragon does go down I'd imagine the Dragon Princes and Swordmasters will likely be unmolested.

There's an element of target saturation with all of the fast cav to go with the 4 hammer units, having used the coastal guard got to say they're a fantastically flexible unit and with parry and heavy armour can hold their own in combat. 2 channels on a 4+ and the dispel scroll give decent magical defence.

I think light will be the go to lore for high elves, white magic has some synergy but I just don't think it cuts it without the +1 to cast, although the lore attribute would be handy for the dragon. I do wonder if it's worth ambushing the coastal guard.

What do you guys think?
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#17 Post by Prince of Spires »

I don't know if the ancient dragon will be the most competitive choice. I think too much of the answer there depends on the meta you're playing in. It will definitely be a competitive option. But play in a shooting / cannon heavy environment and other choices become more appealing. Or in an environment where high S actually matters very little and it's mainly about total amount of attacks, like playing skaven, who care very little about s7 attacks (running low T and low armour) and have enough bodies not to care about 10 attacks (or more) either.

I think this is something that will evolve over time. Right now, everyone is 'playing the meta' as there isn't a settled one. I think over the next year / tournament season, a favorite playstyle will evolve, and the year after that people will adapt by changing their lists around.

Your list looks interesting enough. It's a tough, in your face, combat list. The only worry I would have about it is that it potentially is relatively easy to pick apart. Stalling one or two elements so your opponent can focus on just some of the army. Two redirectors and a sacrificial unit will mean that the SM will arrive late to the party. Or the SM and one of the DP units. That would be my strategy of trying to deal with this army at least. Which probably makes this a player skill list. If you're better at maneuvering then I am you'll win with this list. If not, then it runs the risk of getting picked apart.

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Re: Dragons still viable?

#18 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:7w vs 6w means that you can't get 1-shotted by artillery,
Cannon generally do D3+2 wounds to flyers now I believe. Which is a fillip for 6-wound guys.
Ielthan wrote:now there seem to be a lot more ways to get into the backfield and threaten warmachines.
Hills blocking Line of Sight looks great for dragons.

On the list, Tome looks decent but I think Book is a valid alternative. I've tried it and it was helpful without being awesome. My question would be, where do the characters go? If you Ambush the Coastal Guard, presumably you can't Ambush the characters? They could go in the Swordmasters but that could get messy. Otherwise they go in the Coastal Guard and largely want to stay out of combat. Might be an idea to put Flaming banner on the CG, or on a unit of DP's.

I too am very impressed with Coastal Guard, Quick to Fire is awesome sauce. I'm keeping them but I'm a little concerned about the 24", especially vs elves, though if they get into range they're brilliant. In general it might be worth getting more shooting into this list lelthan, maybe RBT for board control vs an enemy with lots of flyers say.

In the one game I've played White Magic was excellent, perhaps expected against elves though. Boosted BS from Hand was fab on the CG. I suspect it's quite good with the dragon too, given the healing (boosted version could be awesome vs enemy lords), movement and Ward buff. Plus destroying people's magic items is always good. Cataclysm for those Skaven?

I suspect an enemy will be immediately focused on the dragon. It's only Fly (7) now but can't be redirected and is a nightmare if it closes without losing wounds. The DP's are faster but don't Fly so they'll be eating any redirectors I'd have thought, though spare shooting or charge threat could counter them. The Swordmasters are slower so will probably only be addressed mid-game, unless you can push Timewarp through.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#19 Post by Ielthan »

Yeah I also thought some more shooting would help a lot, although not sure where the points would come from. A couple of RBT's would be great. I hadn't paid for ambush, so the characters would have the option of going in either unit. Banner of path would mean ideally they bunker together.

White magic/High magic (which I used enormously in 8th) has always had the weakness of being kind of useless against certain armies (basically anyone who didn't really care about fiery convocation/cataclysm i.e. warriors, brets). I wish they'd reverted arcane unforging to the older version that could be cast into combat. Light seems a bit more rounded now after we lost the awesome lore attribute, and is the only lore to reward 2 lvl 2's. I'll give both a try.

Could potentially drop a unit of DP's for a frostie, will take a bit of playtesting to see how effective the frostie still is. Or even a cheap flame phoenix that would be handy for dealing with redirectors, the extra points could beef up the sword masters.

We could actually field quite the airforce now that would be a real pain to deal with; 3 phoenixes from rare, eagles from special, ancient dragon, griffon hero and maybe 2 lvl2s bunkering in some coastal guard. Or does each phoenix count as a duplicate regardless of type?

Been treating swordmasters as a given, but phoenix guard with the razor standard and holy attacks (thanks to BSB) are still pretty nails.

Will hopefully get some games in over the next month, will give the ancient dragon a decent run.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#20 Post by Galharen »

Well I love playing with dragon but now I have to say I'm more excited to play some msu with new scouts with poison or skirmishing sisters with 2x12-14 swords and dragon princes:)
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#21 Post by Iluvatar »

Ielthan wrote:We could actually field quite the airforce now that would be a real pain to deal with; 3 phoenixes from rare, eagles from special, ancient dragon, griffon hero and maybe 2 lvl2s bunkering in some coastal guard. Or does each phoenix count as a duplicate regardless of type?
Phoenixes are a single entry, customizable as either flame or frost. But indeed that means only 2 phoenixes from the Rare section.
Of course, you could mount your BSB on a phoenix if you pay him the High Warden of the Flame upgrade. :wink:
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#22 Post by SpellArcher »

Ielthan wrote:White magic/High magic (which I used enormously in 8th) has always had the weakness of being kind of useless against certain armies
I know what you mean here lelthan. I only played one tournament with the 8th HE book but I used High Magic. It was epic three times and useless twice. I do think it's a slightly different beast now though. +1S from Phoenix Rises is a superb new buff and it's only a 9+. Hand improved because Initiative is more important in the absence of ASF. We lost Shield of Saphery but the replacement spell can be cast from outside the unit and going from 4++ to 3++ for example is obviously a big deal.

Both your list and mine (I have Archmage plus Mage Prince BSB) have five spells which makes getting what you're after a virtual certainty. Again, I take the point about Dissolution. Say you're playing Warriors. He prioritises dispelling it and scrolls the small Winds phase where you'd otherwise get it through. Then he's into combat. But IF does happen, good and bad rolls happen, there are tricks like the Book. If you have RBT, solo characters have to watch this spell all game or be shot down. Plus the Chariots for example no longer laugh at S4 MM's.

I hadn't appreciated how well the Warden honour buffs Swordmasters. Holy Attacks are great of course, as is the MR. The only issue I can see is that then you can't afford to lose the unit. But if necessary he can go in the CG as you say. As for the flying circus, the Frostheart nerf must be significant. But as discussed, those monsters are harder to shoot down now.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#23 Post by Ielthan »

SpellArcher wrote:I hadn't appreciated how well the Warden honour buffs Swordmasters. Holy Attacks are great of course, as is the MR.
Unfortunately the holy attacks buff only passes to phoenix guard (become daemon murderers) and phoenixes.

The warden honour does give phoenixes a 4++ now though which is a pretty big deal, especially when you consider that can go to a 3++. A Warden prince on phoenix (either has uses) is actually very cost efficient, you don't need to kit him out much at all, on a frostie with a giant blade for some can opening and a lucky shield comes to 470, just 430 on the flame bird, a pretty good alternative to the griffon prince, doesn't hit as hard but much more survivable and frost aura/rebirth goodness. Give him the crown of dominion for some tzeentch disc lord shenanigans.
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Re: Dragons still viable?

#24 Post by SpellArcher »

Given you've gone for a sizeable unit lelthan, the PG might be a better option. Not only do you get the Holy Attacks, PG are better at holding and therefore at keeping the BSB alive perhaps. 3++ vs spells is excellent.

Under the old book Phoenixes often picked up a 4++ from the table so it would be nice to get it back. I guess you're limited to T5 now but it still looks promising.
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