9th highborn musings(now with .99.4 discussion!)

[sparkytrypod]

Im happy with 12 at the moment, with banner and champ thats 176.

Im not sure SA, i guess when i think of it, i think if someone is gonna template or shoot then they are going to drop regardless of the 5++. That 50 points is 4 models in a second unit, which isnt getting hit by a template( this turn anyway!) playing the woodies i screened them at the start using silver helms, which partially solved the problem.

If you face a serious gunline will that banner really save the unit or would you be better off having a second unit, i guess thats the trade off im looking at.


AlSo as im playing with 8 units of cavalry and 2 flyers, i should be keeping enemy shooters occupied.

[Ferny]

One of the thigns I like about seaguard is they can walk around and shoot (qtf) and ambush and shoot (qtf) and have armour and distracting for when they're hit in combat...and with a seaguard character which I'll try next they can reform after S&S. love them really. Archers can do similar but need more buffs to and are weaker at it.

[sparkytrypod]

True about seaguard, i have yet to use them, im slow to introduce changes! But i will get to them at some stage!

[SpellArcher]

Basically Sparky, the principle is the same as in Seredain's old list.

The unit of 14 is a tool. It's not a main combat unit but if you can set it up it can do a lot of damage. 22 S5 attacks hitting on 2's? Two units of ten, no command are 260. The Banner unit is about the same. Now if you can safely get those two 10's into an enemy unit, that is preferable. As we all know though, this is easier said than done. The 14 takes charges better and can fight on it's own.

So why doesn't it just get shot to bits, even with the Banner? Sometimes it does but at a cost. You take it along with a wide variety of other stuff. That other stuff is often faster and a higher target priority. Some enemies have weak or no shooting. If you shoot at a Horde and scatter you probably still kill stuff. At a 14? You probably miss. As I'm learning from Daemons, 5++ isn't foolproof but it has an effect. A 5+ armour save on top means S3 shooting (and S4 to some extent) is not as dangerous as normal. You can screen, you can use cover, all the normal stuff.

A lot depends on how the meta develops. But I am minded to give it a try.

[Ferny]

Good post SA. I ask myself how witch elves make it into combat without being shredded. Answer - pegs, warlocks and dark riders flying at your lines. Swordies are nails when they reach you, but you've got to deal with the frosty, griffon, dragon princes and other assorted cav first.

[Ferny]

Also like the idea of smaller units being, whilst also relatively more crippled by, but not as enticing a target as large units. I'm really torn on unit size for swordmasters. However, I'm not feeling the love for lions in 9th and for some reason I'm more excited by seaguard than pheonix guard...

[SpellArcher]

Thanks Ferny.

That +1 AS on Lions has to be worth something. Also I don't think MC will enjoy fighting them. As said, they scream horde to me.

Though that Swordmaster unit is killable, it's arguably more useful than a more solid unit without the damage potential. Even if you lose the second rank, the 15 remaining attacks are going to hurt. The unit can't be ignored.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to convince myself.



I loved that unit in early 8th, it was awesome.

[sparkytrypod]

Oh man, swordmasters were absolute lawnmowers at the start of 8th, the glory days!

U have any plans for some games SA?

[SpellArcher]

I like how the +1 to hit gives the 14 a better damage output than in the 8th army book. I6 is huge of course when paired with the end of ASF, now they strike before almost all elves instead of after them. Also they needed characters in 8th edition book, now they don't.

I'm considering a blog post with a draft army list soon. Yeah, there may be a game.

[Ferny]

Do it . Please post your reasoninfs too

[sparkytrypod]

A +1 from me also on posting an army SA!

The more i think about it, the happier i am with asf being gone, what was the point of being an elite unit like dragon princes with initiative 6 before when all elves had asf, no benefit or nothing other than WS to symbolise tglheir advanced training.

Have you guys looked at any of the other updated books? Thoughts?

[Ielthan]

Tried a 30 strong swordmaster star (dragon banner) with a loremaster (the +2 dispel cloak, mr3, 3++ helm), archmage on white magic (stubborn crown and crystal), bsb seahelm (banner of paths). The unit ate everything it hit fairly easily and with the distracting rule didnt lose much at all. Was pretty much invulnerable to magic.

Tbh the archmage on high was fairly redundant, you can just 1/2 dice earthblood from the loremaster instead to get the ward save, the rest of high magic is just too meh. Light would probably be a better choice, especially with the loremaster. Loremaster with +3 to cast was amazing, felt better than with old Book somehow.

Game was 2500pts.

I think MSU swordmasters could probably work, but would struggle vs armies that can really cover the table with speed or numbers.

Also had a horde of seaguard, they were pretty awesome, extremely flexible, A+. Change to volley fire makes them a real threat at range too.

[SpellArcher]

Thanks guys, I hope to start writing in the next couple of days.

That's a serious Horde. I guess the counters would be either gunline or no-save spells? Plus it's going to eat a lot of redirectors. It would take some killing though.

the rest of high magic is just too meh.

It looks pretty similar to 8th book still. I know what you mean lelthan, I had some 8th book games it was great, some it did nothing. But I like the 24" on the MM, I like the +1 S spell, I like cheaper Cataclysm. I'm going to try it out.

Have you guys looked at any of the other updated books? Thoughts?

Brief look at the Daemon list. Gifts look chosen now, not rolled. Reign of Chaos seems gone. Skillcannon now only seem available if you have a Khorne general. Beasts slight nerf, slight points increase but still look good to me.

Wood Elves supposed to be bent from what Ferny said. Some talk on Asrai, here for example:

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28941

Their shooting slightly nerfed (no ignore AS completely, no AP on Enchanted Arrows, moving gives Trueflight -1 for example) but still good. Wild Riders look much the same. They have some tasty combat character options. The Tree Spirits are improved. Still don't rate their foot blocks, that's pretty much why I'm leaning towards High Elves, Dragon banner looks vital for me. If my Saturday game goes ahead it'll be against them. Expecting to get pasted (Thomas is good) but learn.

[SpellArcher]

It's on, like Donkey Kong!

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... &start=120

[Ceridan]

Tried a 30 strong swordmaster star (dragon banner) with a loremaster (the +2 dispel cloak, mr3, 3++ helm)

I'm sorry, do you mean Cloak of Stars? The one which makes spells cast at the bearer's unit at -2? You do realize that it also affects friendly spells cast at the unit aswell?

Just pointing it out, because that cloak is mostly not used together with a Loremaster (Master of Paths) which usually casts buffs like Wildform or Earthblood cheaply on his own unit. Also many players haven't realized the cloak also affects friendly spells.

Other then that, solid deathstar.

[Ielthan]

Tried a 30 strong swordmaster star (dragon banner) with a loremaster (the +2 dispel cloak, mr3, 3++ helm)

I'm sorry, do you mean Cloak of Stars.

Yes I did, I hadn't noticed it affected friendly casting, d'oh! I guess it did seem a bit too good to be true. Still handy mind.

It was solid without eating all my points, however I think a more mmu approach is probably the way to go. I have my doubts over full msu given steadfast is still a thing. Want to try some phoenix guard out, with the razor standard I think they're still a solid choice. White Lions on the other hand I'm not sure, though watching them murder some ogres would be fun.

[SpellArcher]

Other then that, solid deathstar.

Solid vs magic but I would worry about something like Chaos Dwarfs with their sea of templates.

Pure MSU looks quite promising to me because of the +1 to hit and crucially, Swordmasters now strike before almost everything. Get the preparation right and you should be able to take big blocks down IMHO.

[Ielthan]

Got in a whole day of 9th age, some friends and I crammed in a bunch of games using the new update (v10.0).

I'm starting to see some real issues with the high elf list, many of which I think stem from the lack of a lore tailored for the army's needs. White magic just doesn't cut it, the lore attribute is nigh on useless unless you're running a flying circus type list. In fact a lot of the best options seem to revolve around that playstyle for us. It suffers from I think an issue that high magic did in 8th but which is now exacerbated by blindly 6-dicing things no longer being an option. There is usually only one spell a turn from the lore that is really worth casting and it's pretty easy for your opponent to stop that spell now.

Played a game vs dark elves, another vs wood elves, the difference in power level was very clear, dark magic is significantly better, it's clearly designed for dark elves while white magic just is just too diluted and the cast values too high for what the spells do, the 8 signatures is almost always a better option. Meant to be in the top 3 most powerful magical races, but our lore is less suited to us than ogres magic is for them. In addition martial discipline just doesn't come close to being useful enough when compared to killer instinct, I don't know how that's gotten through, personally I think they should just return to extra ranks, it reflected our fluff perfectly; High Elves win through discipline, Dark Elves win through savagery. Now we win through gimmicks and swordmasters. This wouldn't be broken due to the fact disruption now ends steadfast and no more easy access to stubborn, so if you want to horde up and have loads of attacks, there is a lot more risk than before, obviously this would probably need to go with an increase in some unit sizes. I mean if anything dark elves feel even more ridiculous in combat than before, it's very easy for their units to access hatred, which on top of +1 to hit from lightning reflexes and rerolling 1's to wound, and pretty easy access to poison, is crazy.

I think a larger problem is just the lack of synergy and flavour in the list compared to the other books. Beyond placing specific characters in specific units there simply isn't any, before we at least had the high magic lore attribute that really worked with our units. White lions just feel like a mess, I'm sorry but at the moment if you just ported them from 8th to 9th age they'd be a much more useful unit that wouldn't be overpowered (they never were that op without BotWD or Alarielle anyway), that would play in a way that reflected their fluff. I think a chrace based honour might be a partial solution. Some kind of return of the 5th ed fighting stances could be extremely cool, would feel more active in game as well. Too much of the book feels reactionary to what was happening in the ETC.

The dark elf book by comparison is packed with synergy, the system of 'chosen' units is great, the buff wagons are a bit op but the ideas behind them are solid. High elves just feel bland by comparison.

I'd love to see some kind of buff wagon enter the list, a saphery based rare unit, I think that could tie things together quite nicely, a waystone dragged to battle or something. I would definitely add a magical cc weapon personally I think dragon banner should be 5++ all the time. I noticed in game, yes you can buff it to get it to a 5++, but you would get the same effect if there was no banner anyway, a 6++ on such expensive and fragile troops is useless, and generally you're better off having a loremaster cast the cheap regen spell anyway and save 50pts. There's definitely still a lot of work to do on the list.


P.S. Played another game vs warriors, they're absolutely fine, the level of bitching on the 9th age forum is completely without justification, it's just players who were used to shoving things forward and auto-winning discovering that warhammer actually takes a bit of thought. Shaggoths are now awesome anyway, all else should be forgiven :p

P.P.S. Why don't the Elves have special rules against each other any more?

[Prince of Spires]

A pity to read that. But it does match my own thoughts and the ideas of some other players about the 9th age HE list. Someone people got it into their heads that in 8th HE were way overpowered and broken. And that a lot of things needed to be dealt with to fix them. So, they've gone and taken out everything that made HE unique and decent.

I get the feeling they're doing the same with magic in general. The ETC scene never liked what magic had become. And so, they've done a redesign of it, which means that playing magic heavy is less of an option for most races now.

Do you feel that the difference in powerlevel between the different armies could also be due to less coordination between army books then perhaps GW would show (where they only had a limited number of people putting out books)?

Rod

[Ielthan]

Do you feel that the difference in powerlevel between the different armies could also be due to less coordination between army books then perhaps GW would show (where they only had a limited number of people putting out books)? Rod

I think this is spot on. Obviously it would have been tricky to coordinate, but i don't think they've really come to a consensus on what the power level of 9th age should be.

I didn't really enter the tournament scene in 8th as I just never had the time to get my stuff painted, but I wrote a lot of lists for friends who went to South Coast, Sheffield etc. (not just for high elves) and would give them practice games in the lead up. Those guys usually finished top half, but nothing exceptional. My feelings for high elves in 8th was that they were actually a mid tier army that ascended to top tier pretty much because of the BotWD, Teclis and Alarielle, I didn't even think the Book of Hoeth was that bad tbh. The only thing in the book that I thought was perhaps a bit op was phoenix guard because they were one of the few units in book that could be relied upon without characters or big spells (provided they had the razor standard). Frosties were very good vs infantry, but generally struggled against anything they couldn't thunderstomp, I remember one getting run down by some marauder horseman that it simply couldnt out res.

It feels like there's been a lot of "fixing what ain't broken" with the High Elves, when I think really after they stripped out the crutches of 8th they should have focused a bit more on making the list work together. That said I like that they've put effort into making the things that were never seen more viable.

[SpellArcher]

I'll start by saying I haven't read the latest update, so the changes may affect what I'm saying here.

I'm starting to see some real issues with the high elf list, many of which I think stem from the lack of a lore tailored for the army's needs.

I've only played one game, here:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... start=120a

But this was against a strong tournament player using Sylvan Elves and I tabled him. It was a good match-up for me, granted he brought King's Guard and they are not ideal against shooting. Against elves in particular high magic has always been good and I'm not seeing what changes this yet. The magic missile is great, Cataclysm is excellent vs T3, Hand is fearsome on Coastal Guard, Dissolution is great against anyone. Yes, some of this stuff requires four dice, which necessitates care. I agree on the Attribute, it isn't great.

In addition martial discipline just doesn't come close to being useful enough

What list were you running lelthan? Because if you have multiple units being sure of Swift Reforms, Fear and Terror tests, March tests etc is really good. Besides, it's only SM's (who got huge buffs) and Lions who lost the third rank fighting, really. Have you tested the Lions in a Horde yet? They get the third rank back, they can survive templates, they get a 4+ and a 6++ in combat that they never used to.

But the 9th Age list really does seem to enable multiple units, in a similar way to our early 8th lists and in contrast to the 8th edition HE book. The benefits of packing a World Dragon and/or Shield of Saphery unit with multiple characters are less now. Instead we get things (Swordmasters fight better in two ranks, Martial Discipline makes small units ultra-reliable, Coastal Guard are just all-round more efficient) that to me seem to encourage MMU/MSU and high magic. Dragon Banner is better than the Regen spell because it's always on and in 9th the enemy can more often dispel the single cast of his choice.

Interesting thought on Warriors. My SE opponent played them and won heavily. I'd be keen to get a game in against them.

[Ielthan]

I ran different lists in each of the 3 games, wanted to try out a variety of things (I admit there may have been some mutual tailoring amongst us...), the lists were made a bit on the fly. Against the wood elves we played a 3k game. I think I faced quite a different style of list to the one you faced. It was pretty much lots of small shooting units, backed up by tree spirits and some psychotic, fast wood elf foot characters that were pretty nuts. Like dark elf masters in 8th basically. His shooting really took a toll, i had 2 18 man units of swordmasters and a unit of 21 phoenix guard, as you would probably expect the swordmasters didnt make it to combat in anything like combat effectiveness, the phoenix guard were solid but didn't get their points back because of redirection. Wild riders eventually smushed my coastal guard horde (fair enough really). He won the chaff war pretty decisively. He had gone pretty magic light (2 lvl 2s), I was running a lvl4 on high and a loremaster, my loremaster was far more useful, there wasn't really a target worth cataclysm, and he stopped walk between worlds every time. 3 Bolt throwers were useful but went down to glade riders and one of the cc heroes. I thought the wood elves actually played in a very cool way, but those foot heroes were kind of ridiculous. Martial prowess was ok in this being a larger game, but even then I'd rather have had the extra ranks so there was more value in using larger, more resilient units.

Against the warriors (2.4k) I used the white lion horde and a small unit skirmishing. The horde was ok, but got their initiative miasma'd and they went down. I'm not generally a fan of using hordes, they're just too easy to counter, especially in 9th age. Those core skirmishers warriors have are awesome, as are the warriors themselves, very cost efficient. I went shooting light, the 2 units of dragon princes were very good in this game, initiative 6 really helped. The skirmishing white lions were honestly kind of useless, I wanted to use them to go after his crushers, but they were too easy to avoid. I had 2 lvl 2's on high, even with aided casting and banner of the path white magic was honestly useless. I blew up some warhounds that were redirecting and that was about it. Any other lore would have been better, particularly light. I won the game but I think that was due to some poor luck on my opponent's behalf when he fluffed 3 panic tests in a row. Martial discipline was of little use I felt as I had positioned my bsb pretty well. Bear in mind my opponent was the best player amongst my regular group, a very sharp bloke.

Against the dark elves I felt we had very similar lists, mine was based around 21 coastal guard, 2 12 man unit of swordmasters, and a bigger unit of phoenix guard. He had corsairs, 2 small units of executioners, a unit of witch elves. Honestly the cauldron and dark magic won this game, they're awesome. Martial discpline helped me pass one swift reform, otherwise it played no part. Killer instinct was much better.

My issue is there is basically no force multiplication with high elves, and not much in the way of flavour either. I agree MSU is probably the way to go, but tbh I think multiple flying characters is even stronger. They can basically achieve what MSU does, but they're faster and hit harder, and have terror/fear.

[Prince of Spires]

The thing with Martial Discipline in the 9th age though is that while it's always great to be even surer of your LD tests, when you are base 8 LD, with easy acces to LD 9 and even LD 10 being fairly easily accessible and BSB rerolls, they just aren't much of a benefit. Yes, you will always fluff some rolls. But in most of my 8th ed games I consider LD rolls to be a minor thing. With reroll, LD 10 means you have a 0.7% chance of failing. LD 9 without reroll (pretty much the base scenario in most cases) only has a 17% chance of failing. No need for that extra dice.

Compare that to the old MD, which increased your attacks by 50%, and the difference usefulness of both rules is fast apparent. And just made worse by the loss of ASF. That is a lot of offensive power HE have given up. At least for those who run some form of block. Compensated on some units by the fight in extra ranks rule. But I do feel it's not up to the same level anymore.

Rod

[Ielthan]

The thing with Martial Discipline in the 9th age though is that while it's always great to be even surer of your LD tests, when you are base 8 LD, with easy acces to LD 9 and even LD 10 being fairly easily accessible and BSB rerolls, they just aren't much of a benefit. Yes, you will always fluff some rolls. But in most of my 8th ed games I consider LD rolls to be a minor thing. With reroll, LD 10 means you have a 0.7% chance of failing. LD 9 without reroll (pretty much the base scenario in most cases) only has a 17% chance of failing. No need for that extra dice.

Compare that to the old MD, which increased your attacks by 50%, and the difference usefulness of both rules is fast apparent. And just made worse by the loss of ASF. That is a lot of offensive power HE have given up. At least for those who run some form of block. Compensated on some units by the fight in extra ranks rule. But I do feel it's not up to the same level anymore.

Rod

+1

Our elite infantry, which was always meant to be the focus of our army, just isn't that elite anymore.

[SpellArcher]

The WE list sounds pretty good. If he out-shot you that's bad news lelthan because shooting is usually king in elf v elf. I have to say I'm suspicious of Swordmasters in 18's because you lose the third rank. I would not run a medium-large unit without Dragon banner. In general I'm suspicious of running several infantry blocks because it slows you down and takes points from shooting etc.. I'd have thought that the Magic Missiles and Hand would be very useful here.

As I've said, PG have the third rank and Lions probably want to Horde (they need the third rank) so the unit that feels the loss is Swordmasters. Who now fight more effectively in two ranks than they did under the 8th HE book, 9th Age just wants us to use them differently. WoC are hard in a straight-up fight, so the Lion Horde maybe needed to be held back until RBT etc had done some work? Chaos Warriors themselves have pretty much always been a below-par unit because they've been too expensive for an M4 unit. That has now been fixed. The #1 spell from high vs Warriors is Dissolution and that gets better with RBT. Walk can be good, the MM can hurt the chariots now. Hand counters Miasma.

DE's have been supercharged ever since their 7th edition book so maybe not much has changed there? Given your playing experience lelthan if you had to write a single all-comers list, what would it be?


With respect Rod, I've used Martial Discipline and with multiple units (which the 9th book encourages), it rocks. Think of Swordmaster's games, stuff is often out of General or BSB range. Ld8 is good but that's normally a 1-in-3 of not being able to shoot, a redirector failing Terror or MSU Swordmasters failing a Fear test and getting creamed. As analysed above, the only unit that misses Martial Prowess is Swordmasters and they got overcompensated for it. ASF going is great news for Lions because they now strike at the same time as other elves, I6 Swordmasters even more so. With PG and DP's also I6, key HE units now strike before everything except a few characters.

The issue I feel is trying to build lists and play the army as if we were still using the 8th edition HE book. Everything has changed and as said, effective armies will now look more like early 8th edition HE lists IMHO. With Dragon banner Swordmasters are an absolute terror in a 14. Yes the enemy can gang up on them but the attention those 262pts draw helps all the other cost-effective units you can bring with them.

[Ielthan]

The WE list sounds pretty good. If he out-shot you that's bad news lelthan because shooting is usually king in elf v elf. I have to say I'm suspicious of Swordmasters in 18's because you lose the third rank. I would not run a medium-large unit without Dragon banner. In general I'm suspicious of running several infantry blocks because it slows you down and takes points from shooting etc.. I'd have thought that the Magic Missiles and Hand would be very useful here.

As I've said, PG have the third rank and Lions probably want to Horde (they need the third rank) so the unit that feels the loss is Swordmasters. Who now fight more effectively in two ranks than they did under the 8th HE book, 9th Age just wants us to use them differently. WoC are hard in a straight-up fight, so the Lion Horde maybe needed to be held back until RBT etc had done some work? Chaos Warriors themselves have pretty much always been a below-par unit because they've been too expensive for an M4 unit. That has now been fixed. The #1 spell from high vs Warriors is Dissolution and that gets better with RBT. Walk can be good, the MM can hurt the chariots now. Hand counters Miasma.

DE's have been supercharged ever since their 7th edition book so maybe not much has changed there? Given your playing experience lelthan if you had to write a single all-comers list, what would it be

Yeah the woodie list was a good one. I think the best that any of us brought. Yes I agree shooting is a big deal in elf vs elf. The issue was target saturation, in 8th you pretty much just the 2 or 3 units of wild riders you really had to focus on up front, throw in 3+ fast combat characters with 4+ ward saves on top of that however and it's a much more difficult problem. The issue with my magic missiles is that he didn't really care about potentially losing a 10 man unit of archers, especially when any survivors are testing on ld 10 rerollable, and the dice needed to cast that spell were usually better off with one of the signatures (e.g. searing dooming/burning gaze a tree man or wild riders, or good old wyssans). Went 18 rather than the usual 12-14 on the swordmasters as i anticipated they were going to get shot and wanted enough to be combat viable. Maybe should have just gone 3 units of 12.

Had held the lion horde back but that mark of wrath with halberds is very nasty, and the rbt's had more pressing targets (cough*daemon prince*cough). Dissolution is ok, but as it's DD you don't usually have too many chances to cast it, and with the nerfs to so many magic items I don't really see it as big deal. With high elves I've always felt the role of magic is to deal with the threats that our combat troops can't, and shooting was to disable enemy support units rather than blast things away. Light magic currently achieves this far better than white magic imo.

You say you have an issue running multiple infantry blocks, but theme wise shouldn't that really be the core of every high elf army? This book seems designed to return high elves to the 7th edition tournament type lists, but why is that a good thing? Frankly they didn't look great on the table, and don't really make a lot of sense thematically. The MSU type lists imply that without extreme min maxing the list is underpowered. Personally I see high elves fighting in medium size blocks that maximise their potential through force concentration, the best way to translate this is extra ranks. I also think you're perhaps underestimating the loss of ASF, that loss of reliability on such fragile troops really feels enormous in game. Dark elves kept their reliability, and then some, and the cauldron makes them as survivable, if not more. Our primary defensive buffs have gone (high magic attribute, BotWD), better armour is nice, but it isn't enough.

Yes DE have been supercharged since 7th, and frankly I think 9th made them even better. We on the other hand took an enormous hit. The power level isn't close to consistent.

If I had to make an all comers list...hmm. Well I do think the list isn't really strong enough to pick a balanced force and expect it to be able to win vs all comers. Our infantry doesn't have the offensive potential to go to toe to toe on small frontages like it used to. I played 2 games with star dragons (the previous version mind), one vs empire, one vs skaven, both with multiple cannons and I have to say it was still a beast. I'd probably go with some variant of that. Put my points into speed and heavy hitting, multiple flying characters, backed up by 2 units of dragon princes. Not sure with the points cut if silver helms are worth it over coastal guard or not, need to test them out. It's also easily the best build with which to use white magic, the lore attribute's only real use is to stop cannons on monsters, and cataclysm would be great for softening up steadfast units that could hold up the monsters. It would be a pretty gimmicky list, that I think speaks to the problems with the current list. I'll try to write one later and get back to you, there are armies I haven't faced yet mind so I'll have to think about it.

[Ielthan]

Ok I'd quite like to try a list like this against all comers.

Prince, Ancient Dragon, Charm of Cursed Iron, Lucky Shield, Giant Sword, Gemstone Amulet

High Captain, BSB, Griffon w/all upgrades, Mage Prince (nature), shielding scroll, gem of fortune

Mage, lvl 2 (white magic/nature), elven steed, dispel scroll


10 Silver Helms, natural armour, Champ, Standard, Flaming Banner.

5 Reavers w/natural armour

5 Reavers w/bow

2 x 5 Reavers

2 x Eagles

2 x 5 Dragon Princes w/champ and standard.

Frostie.

2400

I would imagine it would need some tweaking. The list basically does one thing and it does it well. Magic totally geared for defense. Could maybe swap out the eagles for a lion chariot, it's decent now. Would be interesting to take the reavers in units of 10 as disrupters. The alternative way I'd go is msu swordmasters backed up by a lot of shooting. Although I'm not sure in a tournament that would get you the big wins you'd want. Something like this maybe:


Archmage lvl4 Light (aura spells seem too good for msu), Annulian Crystal, Red ring of ruin

Noble BSB, Warden of Flame, Lion Fur, Shield, Heavy Armour, Sword of Strength, Hardened Shield, Dusk Stone.


21 Coastal Guard, Heavy Armour, Full Command, Flaming Banner

3 x 5 Reavers w/natural armour

3 x Bolt Throwers w/upgrade

3 x 12 Swordmasters w/champ & standard

2 x 5 Dragon Princes w/champ & standard

2400

[Prince of Spires]

Perhaps it's also down to what armies you run in to. I rarely fight other elves. So, I always go first anyway. I agree that in elves vs elves, striking before the other is a big deal, since we're usually all wearing paper armour. And if you're dead then you can't hit back...

My lists tend to be MMU lists, where almost all stuff is either in BSB or general range or both or doesn't care too much about LD tests. A phoenix as a single model with terror for instance only really needs LD when losing combat or the occasional panic test, for which you can't use MD. Same with my redirectors, they have free reforms anyway so only care about stuff where MD doesn't apply.

In a MSU army MD becomes progressively more applicable. But a MSU list is also designed from the idea that losing one part of it doesn't have as much impact as in a MMU list.

The extra rank doesn't add much to the standard cav bus list, monster mash list or MSU list. In reverse, since I run a MMU list, losing the extra rank is something I notice more (where it applies at least). I designed many of the blocks with the 3 ranks of attacks (and ASF) in mind. Maximum offence in as small a frontage as possible.

For me ASF, and especially the reliability it brings, has been a bigger deal. I went first before, I still go first. However, in the old situation, there was very little chance of having rubber lance syndrome. Failed half or three quarters of the 3+ to hit roll? No worries, I'll just pick those up and still hit with 80-90% of my attacks. I always knew what my troops would do.

Perhaps it's fair to say that the changes in the rules turn HE from a shock army into a more defensive army. In the old rules, you had precision strikes with high impact (and often high speed). In the new, you have reliable movement and positioning.

I'm probably missing a few, so what tests does it apply to? Swift reforms, rally, march, fear, restraining pursuit, redirecting, combat reforms, stupidity. Missing any?

Rod

[Browncastle]

hey, had so 8 games during last week:P played against beastmen, in manyforms, and a proxyed deamon list. The best performing highborn list was this one:

Prince on Ancient dragon, halberd, longbow

LvL 4, scroll

Noble on eagle, reaverbow, 2+ arm, honour sea helm, lance

11 knights FCG, 2+ arm

20 Archers, mus

18 Archers, mus

2 x Reapeting Reapers

Frostheart Phoenix

Fire Phoenix

It might be alittle one dimensional, but its a hard hitter. Another list Im working on is 3 fighty scholar captains, and a etheral Loremaster. Lvl 4 or even 5(banner of Path) Loremaster is very nice

[PadForce]

Honours are unique i think so cant take multiple mage knights