9th highborn musings(now with .99.4 discussion!)

[sparkytrypod]

a copy of my post from the 9th age forum.

questions/structure provide by Arhain.

i played 3 2400 games today, 2 against beast herds and one against WOTDG

How is your playstyle/army building changing?
i would have played knight buses, star dragon or defensive/shooty infantry lists before.. today i played with an MSU style list in all 3 games. without ASF or banner of the world dragon i cant see any future in large infantry blocks. Also even with +1 to hit, elven heavy cav are so average, you really are just buying a bunker/wounds. when i look at what we have available now, i see fast hard striking units that should hit, smash and exit fast. i think we did this very well with our 7th ed book at the start of 8th edition.

What character combos are you using more often now?
Today i used a griffon lord lord, with:
-dragon arm, mage knight(nature), shield, divine icon, giant blade, demonhelm, griffon with upgrades
-a super versatile character, capable of taking the fight to the biggest characters out there,but weak against rank and file. he is self healing with nature and regen.
-also mage knight on its own is worth it just to boost your chance of channeling a dispel dice on a 4+, its a great boost

eagle mounted BSB with:
captain, dragon arm, bluffers helm, shield, sword of might, eagle with upgrades
- again versatile,double teams well with the lord in that he can tank low strenth rank and file with bluffers helm while the griffon lord challenges out characters.

arch mage with:
lvl 4, gleaming robes, scroll, light
-i think light goes well with high elves now,offering protection(shield) and offense (timewarp) giving me an edge in combats today.
-thought about just leaving it at lvl 3 but the extra spell swung it for me

What is your core setup typically like?
Todays core was:
2 units of archers x 10 banner
2 units of heavy cav x 5 banner
2 units of light cav x 5 extra armor & bows

core is the area i am struggling with at the moment. after today i would be thinking of going all cavalry and swapping out the archers for more heavy cav or testing coastal guard. At the moment i see our cores role as clogging up the enemys lines of movement. Just pure annoyance! and clearing light units, not serious combat duty.

Are you using the new chariots?
no

What does your rare selection look like?
2 units of 5 dragon princes champions
- serious stars, put timewarp or shield on these guys and watch them wreck face. champion is capable of killing heroes at this level.
-still only T3 so still easy to put wounds on them

What does your special selection look like
2 units of swordmasters x 12 champs & banners
-great for what you pay, killy and get killed back
- synergies with light, in that you can get distracting from shield of protection and ws 10 & i10 from blinding speed, which will be great against other elves. timewarp boosts this units output to 21 attacks when 5 wide.

with my small units, even when going up against 35-40 strong beast herd units i felt if i got my setup right i could take them with pure MSU combined arms and not through a broken combo, which i think is a positive.

As aside note, totems add alot of power to beastmen in that they can gain the ability to become initiative 6, AP2, frenzy or extra attacks.
with our core setting traps we can really disrupt and isolate their units if the BH player isnt careful. our core cannot go toe to toe with other armies and i think we need to accept that and recognize what they are good at and can do. example, a unit of 10 archers and two helm darts disrupted, delayed and annoyed a 35 strong unit of bestigors with a beast lord general for the whole game, 300 odd points of our core effectively taking out 700ish points of BH while i took on the rest of the BH army with mine.



i think we need to change our mindset from that of a defensive army, we have the ability to throw down alot of power i.e strength 5 and above with our cav, with pinpoint precision due to our cavalries speed advantage and flyers. we have lost that which gave a T3 army the ability to be defensive, BOTWD. we wont win a grind so lets get fast and aggressive!

anyone else played games or have any thoughts on set up etc?

[teep]

This is great, Sparky - thanks for sharing your experience/thoughts. I hope to join in soon myself, or at least comment properly! Posts like, plus the ensuing discussions, are sooo good for both getting a grip on the new situation and for pushing things forward

[sparkytrypod]

thanks teep, as i mentioned i cant claim the structure, that is arhains! i look forward to your updates and thoughts also.

we need to get the ball rolling!

[SpellArcher]

i cant see any future in large infantry blocks.

PG?

I6, 4++, third rank fighting are all still there. Has the meta changed to nerf them?

[Ferny]

There's a new rule called holy attacks whcih allows you to force re-rolls on ward saves (like TOTS, but more easily available, like flaming attacks stripped regen in 8th kinda thing), so ward saves have become less solid as a whole. that said, while holy attacks exist, they're not exactly given out like candy so despite what the internet seems to be saying I don't know yet how much of an impact it will have. Generally I think it'll be a nice balancer against things like the old tzeench lords and 3++ PG (which both probably don't exist now, but you get what I mean).

PG also lost re-rolls and gained +1 to hit instead which I gather statistically is a nerf. But overall they're still decent I think - if you used them in 8th and didn't rely on 3++ then you can probably still use them in 9th IMO.

[SpellArcher]

Good point re Holy Attacks, I guess Banishment is such a thing in 8th.

There seems to be decent synergy with High Magic. The +1 Ward spell is obviously good and the +1S spell looks excellent for them. Plus there are must-dispels to get the buffs through.

Losing ASF should hurt simply insofar as some other stuff (mostly characters) now strikes before them. Conversely though, they now strike before the vast majority of elves which could be huge.

[sparkytrypod]

Nailed it ferny. Items like divine icon, and e fact that the lore attribute from light gives units holy attacks, means you could have some games where they will suffer, and suffer hard.

also have hou guys seen any of the WOC/WOTDG lists?
Lists consisting of 2 demon princes, mage, 2 chimera, knights and chariots, nearly worse than before! Breath weapon, thunfer stomps and impact hits everywhere!

[SpellArcher]

So you're saying Sparky that not being able to rely on the Ward so much is a deal-breaker? Though even a re-rolled 4++ is worth having and a re-rolled 3++ is almost a 4++. Against killable stuff the PG should be able to bring a lot of pain first.

T6 stuff, heavy armour, monsters, characters though have always been issues for them. Does the cannon nerf mean that monsters etc are running riot?

[sparkytrypod]

I think its mobility really is the problem, alot of HE lists, or at least the ones that have done well at the moment are monster mobile, or have ambusing seaguard.
The extra availabilty of holy attacks, the loss of rerolls too, its what, a 10-15 drop off in hits?
it might just be me, but i associate them with a defensive style and i dont think that is where high elves excel at the moment.
im fancying fast and hard hitting at the moment. Why hold up something when you could just kill it with swordmasters! the extra pip of strength really makes a difference to dragon princes also.

Regarding canons, perhaps, but alot of armies have acces to ambush now to put pressure on gunlines, we even have ambushing seaguard now!

[SpellArcher]

I think its mobility really is the problem,

Every edition, the writers seem to struggle with making slow infantry good. When the rules work well an infantry block can make sense because it provides the staying power around which faster units revolve. It usually has to be pretty special though. Obviously I can't comment on whether 9th Age achieves this.

the loss of rerolls too, its what, a 10-15 drop off in hits?

I guess re-rolled 3's give 8/9 hits, straight 2's give 5/6?

I know a lot of players feel that cannon are too good in 8th. I can see this but if you go too far the other way you get Star Dragon-fest as in 7th. Ambush is useful but it's a bit random. Quite a few armies have it in 8th.

[Arhain]

I was not aware people were still posting here about 9th! I am happy you liked the structure of that post Sparkytrypod, had to get some better discussions going.

About the struggle to make slow infantry good, I think it's infantry in general. Infantry is better in 9th with the nerfing of 1+ saves and the buff to parry, but I still see "specialty" armies. Most of the HE builds are still doing this, with our core made up of a lot of small MSU troops, filled with monsters, bolt throwers, or skirmishers. While coast guard got better in 9th (definitely a solid core choice), we don't have the internal balance yet. DE are another example with poor internal balance in regards to foot sloggers. Repeater Xbows are still awesome, and dark riders are a solid choice, so why choose the other core options? Granted i've played against one DE player in 9th currently, but most lists i've seen still shy away from infantry blocks. I hope this is an oversight on my part and I just haven't seen enough lists.

Also on holy attacks, I have not seen a huge surge of holy attacks that may worried about, so if an MMU strategy is used it centers around a PG block. People are still feeling out the WL, as they currently are clearly worse than before, but the ABC has some things in the works for them i'm sure.

[Prince of Spires]

As I read it, the thing with PG is reliability. In 8th with the 4+ ward, ASF rerolls and I6, you could simply depend on what they would do. They would not die, stay in place and hit with almost all their attacks. In this regard, rerolls are much better then +1 to hit. Statistically you hit a bit more often with the reroll (so it's a nerf in that sense). But the main value of the reroll is those times when you completely fluff your first to hit roll. You always get some outliers where you can only seem to roll 1's for a turn. Simply being able to pick up half the dice and roll them again is then a god-send. After all, rolling more = bigger chance of ending up at the expected outcome. So that's the hit they take.

I do however feel that they can still play a role. Both in a MMU list, in a MSU list where they are the bigger unit but also in a fast / cavalry list (at higher points) where you want an anchor / dependable block in your line.

In general, I think it's interesting to see that the 9th age is facing many of the dillema's GW ran into. How do you make infantry viable without taking them over the top? How do you balance cannons vs monster? How do you ensure both internal and external balance for armies. I have good hope that the 9th age guys will figure it out. But it will probably take several iterations to get there.

Rod

[Iluvatar]

In general, I think it's interesting to see that the 9th age is facing many of the dillema's GW ran into. How do you make infantry viable without taking them over the top? How do you balance cannons vs monster? How do you ensure both internal and external balance for armies. I have good hope that the 9th age guys will figure it out. But it will probably take several iterations to get there.

That's indeed one of my favorite parts of the project. Seeing people actually get into the balancing part, with the wish to have every unit interesting to play and all armies equal in power level. People have despised GW for doing a bad job of it for years, but they might understand better now how difficult it is.
And I'm not even talking about players complaints about "overnerfing" they favorite units or the power level of other armies.

To be honest, I'm not sure the objective of a balanced game will ever be met. And I'm playing the ninth age, and translating it to French - so you can consider it an "insider" critics...

[Prince of Spires]

To be honest, I'm not sure the objective of a balanced game will ever be met.

Actually, as I've stated in the past, I am sure that a balanced game will never be met. WH is too complex to ever achieve a completely balanced game. Simply the number of different units and combinations they give means that it is impossible that the game will be completely balanced. Not counting special characters and character equipment I estimate that there are around 350-400 different units in WH. Balancing them all against each other, assuming only a single other unit and using the low end of the estimate, then gives 122.150 different possible combinations.

And that is without factoring in different roles a unit can play, equipment options and army lists. After all, how much is a great eagle worth? An eagles combat value is negligible, but it's redirection options are a life-saver. How then do you value it. Or a cannon. It's great when it can 1-shot an expensive monster but useless against a big infantry unit.

Also, the rock-paper-scissors aspect of WH means that sometimes you run into a list you have no tools to deal with. If you run a monster-mash list and run into a cannon gunline you will struggle, no matter what balance aspects are in the game.

And then of course, there is the issue that for different levels of play models are actually more or less valuable. A great player will know how to deal with certain extremes making them less valuable where a beginner will perhaps struggle.

So, balance will not happen. The only thing we can do is try our best and root out the extremes.

Rod

[sparkytrypod]

What do you think of where units are pointwise at the moment arhain?

To be honest, i think most of the points for units are roughly correct in so far as making functioning lists. A point per model up or down either way doesnt really affect much in the overall scheme of things.

also what are peoples thoughts on the honours?

[sparkytrypod]

Also their is alot of moaning on the 9th forum, with outlandish buffs being suggested for units, or just looking fir pointa drops with no testing. its good to have a bit of sensible chat here!

[Arhain]

What do you think of where units are pointwise at the moment arhain?

To be honest, i think most of the points for units are roughly correct in so far as making functioning lists. A point per model up or down either way doesnt really affect much in the overall scheme of things.

also what are peoples thoughts on the honours?

I think most of the points are correct, with only minor increase or decrease. I think our core spears need a decrease by 1pt, although honestly if we want to see what small changes matter, giving them back access to magic banner might be a good start. At 9pts though (that's heavy armor and a point decrease from current) and access to magic banner I would start taking them over LSG for my combat core. A unit of 20-25, heavy armor, and Icon of Relentless on them would be a nice unit.

Archers. This is another unit that is either fine as is and people have just stopped using them because the coast guard are so good, or they need a point drop. I think in reality the problem is the CG perform their dual role so well now that the archers don't seem worthwhile. The smallest change, return of magic banner options, would probably see them played more, because in all honesty their shooting output has really not changed unless you are constantly moving your archers, which in most games won't/shouldn't happen.

Silverhelms. Another unit that I think are actually fine right now. Giving them the magic banner option (see a trend?) helped them out significantly. If any change, I would drop their unbarded option by 1pt. Currently you ALWAYS take the 2+ armor save. I think if they want to make the unbarded a viable option, decreasing it by a point might make that happen.

CG. Perfect. If anything I could see them getting nerfed, I have a feeling ambush across armies is going to be looked at, as the option is more prevalent than it used to be. Again, I think fine as is, possibly taking away their heavy armor to make spear elves more competitive, but with the above changes to the spears I don't think this is needed. Everyone loves this unit because they perform their role well.

Special:

SM. I actually think the swordmasters are fine now.
WL. Not so sure. They suffered a huge nerf bat with 9th due to their prevalence in ETC, which is sad because they were perfect for holding the BotwD banner, not because the unit was so insanely good. They lost stubborn and the extra rank for attacking. I think the ABC is going to make them anti cav/monsters in the newer iteration, they talked about adding +1 to hit against certain unit types or sizes. That might be good? I am still using a block of them with a noble to make them stubborn, but not sure how long that will hold up.
PG. Still consistent and nice. 15 pts is right for this unit, and opponents feel like they have a counter with holy attacks.
Chariots. I'm having SO much fun trying out chariot combos. I've always loved Tiranocs, and always tried squeezing one into the army to protect warmachines or backlines. Now, i'm also trying out a vanguarding unit of 3 because it looks good and it creates a "no go" zone for the opponent. Not sure about points for them yet, and I miss the 4+ save from the TAC. Lion chariots are great now, I am also experimenting a lot with the hawk chariots, with and without the giant bow. Without the bow they are great support troops, and the 5 AP1 quick to fire shots do a good job with armor or other anti chaff. I'm also using a noble on a hawk chariot, because for 65 points it's a pretty decent upgrade for him. We'll see if it sticks, but I can use him solo or to buff the potential of a hawk chariot unit (trying in solo, units of 2, and even 3 currently).

Phoenixes are fine.
Sisters. Ooooo Sisters are good. I am actually afraid they will be nerfed and upped by a point. You see them in almost every list right now. They are great at their job, which is killing monsters. Other than the RBTs they are our only option to do this other than investing heavily in magic, which is less of a payoff now (at least I feel that way). Currently there is no incentive to take them without skirmishing though, so maybe this will be looked at in 9.2

Also their is alot of moaning on the 9th forum, with outlandish buffs being suggested for units, or just looking fir pointa drops with no testing. its good to have a bit of sensible chat here!

That is why I opened that topic on the 9th forum. REAL hard to take part in some of those discussions.

[Ferny]

I broadly agree, I think HE look decent in 9th.

Things I like:
Honours - they add a lot of flexibility to our characters and are a definite boost. We even got some new ones (mage prince, the scout one is pretty niche). Think they also add character.
They've made most units usable
The balance in rare is interesting
pheonixes seem about right to me, both of them

Things I think are OK:
pg seem fine I think.
dragon princes are fine I think. Quibbles on points but I don't have a strong view. I like S4, fits IMO.

Things I think went too far:
sea guard - they need reigning back a notch
sisters - perhaps, haven't used them yet. They look solid though. I don't want them to get nerfed but possibly a points increase. I'd also like to see a return to spears option if taken in non-skirmish. It matches the old models and spears make sense with a monster hunting archery unit.
lion chariot perhaps too cheap. glad they removed stubborn (from a chariot, never fitted IMO) given that it isn't given to lions anymore it was anomalous

Things that still need some help:
I'd be more generous with magic items - banners to all core for certain and possibly magic items not just weapons to champions, although that might be quite impactful (e.g. take unit defensive buffs without character caddy - is that too much of a buff?) - but core spears/archers need banners to compete IMO
core spears need something else, either a points drop (not good IMO), free armour (maybe) or weapon master (but not pure parry) - currently they lose out to Sea Guard and archers on all fronts
Magic items generally not great
white lions seem meh, but not sure what they need
swordmasters now auto need banner of the dragon if they're not MSU - seems a shame. Not sure whether they're solid or not yet, need to actually play some games!
shadow warrior poison and AHW is solid IMO but they cost too much to warrant IMO

[SpellArcher]

shadow warrior poison and AHW is solid IMO but they cost too much to warrant IMO

The WE equivalent costs more in 8th and it's very effective.

Of course similar units play differently depending on the rest of the armies.

[Joaco]

I agree that is a decent army, but think that they need some more work in comparisson to other armies.
Said some things in another topic, but liked this discussion.

Have no problem with the dragon princes being rares, but I do think that their cost is ridiculous.

About the honours, I do not see them as a boost or a way of adding some creativity to the army, they are in fact, a way of keeping all the options we had for characters becouse they are all the same (except for the mage prince and the scout -that was an item-) only now is a lord/hero choice.

Agree that I dont see anybody getting archers or spears in a competitive list, but do the sea guard need a nerf, or them a boost? (hope that them a boost!)

Another thing that worries me, is the fact that the only magic weapon high elves have, its a bow!

[Ferny]

At first glance honours are just old characters...but!...you can now have annointed heroes, and as bsb, and handmaiden as bsb, and All three old heros get access to noble armour and weapons, which is a big boost too. This bundle of changes is huge and really under valued. Sentinel has had a big buff compared to before by keeping a3, but also gaining all the new seaguaed rules. Mage prince is new and a solid option with the new aided rules. Flameheart get access to foot and pheonix, both new, as well as am option. In all, honours are a real unsung buff from before.

[SpellArcher]

Have no problem with the dragon princes being rares, but I do think that their cost is ridiculous.

In general I feel expensive stuff that kills things is better than average-priced that struggles to. Like elite infantry vs Core infantry in the 7th book. There is a limit of course.

[sparkytrypod]

Squeezed in a game today against wood elves. My list is the same as the first post apart from a switch up in the core, archers are out, and 2 units more of helms in. Also took the armour of the reavers.

Wood elf list is approximatly had the following;
Lvl 4 lore of nature, stuff
bsb, obsidian rock, gw, ha, mounted, hail of doom
captain, huntsman kindred, mounted, lance
dryad matriarch lore of wild
tree man

2 x12 archers with perforating shot (-3 to armour)
2 x 12 dryads skirmishing

6 wild riders
9 wild riders razor banner
eagle
9 sisters of the wild/thorne (illuminating bolts, curse of anrahir)

A serious bloodbath of a game.
all i had left at the end was the griffon lord, eagle bsb, 3 helns and 3 swordmasters, for a wipeout of the wood elves.

Key points from the game,
1-get your match ups right, initiative is sooo important, you have to remwmber every turn that ASF is gone.
2-dragon princes are soo good, i6 and S6 on the charge. With reavers and helms sacrificing themselves, drahon princes cleaning out both units of wild riders, which were the biggest threat to my army.
3- swordmasters chainsawed through dyrads, but got javlined and magic missiled to death by sisters of thorne. Exellent at their infantry killing role, tough as tissue.
4- griffon lord is a serious high value target killer, popped the treeman in one go, perfect.
5-light magic, solid if a bit unspectacular this game, bubble shield, and both magic missiles mean you always have aomething in the bag.

Any questions are welcom.

[Prince of Spires]

Thank you for the overview. How did you feel about the changed core setup? Did you miss the extra shooting or have you found that the archers rarely do anything anyway?

Regarding your reference to the importance of initiative, do you think it's too important? Or just more important then it was in the past?

It's good to hear that the griffon lord is no longer just a liability. Finally gives some purpose to all those IOB griffons out there

Rod

[Galharen]

thanks for your feedback. I think I'm finally aiming again into 9th Age after some moments of despair, as long as local communities organise Tourneys I'm going to use it. It would be a shame to leave a hobby totally

And there is a good reason to paint new swordmasters

[SpellArcher]

initiative is sooo important

I'm wondering if Hand of Glory could be good here?

swordmasters

After your comments re MSU Sparky I'm wondering if a 14 with Dragon banner could be a goer. Do you use this flag?

[sparkytrypod]

Didnt miss archers in the slightest, more helms gave me more board control by providing extra sacrifices, blocjers and general annoyance. Also with full cav i was up on his archers turn 2.
i think the loss of shooting in an extra rank has weakened our archers massivly, i always took 2 units of 15 in our 8th book, but i just think with the power creep(and their has been) really doesnt make then worth it. Alot of average infantry has gotten cheaper, or access to more armour, eg our spearelfs, beastmen infantry, so archers now have more targets but essentially are worse at ahooting, unless u want to babysit them and volley fire, i dont think this suits the current HE set up.

I think initiative has become the mechanic to save the elves, whereas before it was just asf v asf, now our elute warriors get a benefit from having high initiative.

I know i have been delighted i can use the model!

@SA ya hand kf glory, miasma and the light spell for initiative 10 can be game changers v elves, like i said, i am finding light to have a nice balance of protection, damage, buffs etc.

as regards the banner, unless you are taking a large unit i dont think its worth it, id prefer to have the points to begin a second unit kf them, they are still tough as tissue.

i think i need to get a game against WOTDG/WOC for a good test as that seems to be a strong book.

[Ferny]

The flag is quite a tax on a small unit, but it could work (just less efficient than a big unit). I'm trying to work out whether I want to go with 'chariot' style hit squads of swordmasters or 14 man units or bigger (21-30 - with banner for sure at that stage).

HE do well with high I and pheonix so I wouldn't be overly worried about it, don't think it's too much emphasis (think it's good in fact), but it does mean we need to get used to playing like the rest of the world now .

I'm using griffon characters now - love it - great model which is guenuinly dusty!

Sparky - we've lost SIER but gained volley fire to shoot in all ranks unless you move so we still sort of have it, think it should work fine still.

[sparkytrypod]

Re archers, true ferny, but look how fast armies are now, their is more vanguards and more ambush. If you are not moving you are dead

i used to play very defensivly, but i just cant see that being the way for high elves currently.

note that these are just my observations and i am dar from being a top player, so take it all with a pinch of salt!

[SpellArcher]

But how big with Swordmasters?

Horde seems to make more sense with Lions to me because they'll survive templates etc. better. Without going Horde we're not getting the third rank fighting, so why go more than about 16? 5++ isn't rock but it's damn useful, like the 7th book Shield of Saphery but better because it's always on. You can spell buff it too.

I've been wondering which of my armies I'm going to have a crack at 9th Age with and I think it's probably High Elves because I should be able to play the army the way I like it. WE combat blocks would die for that dragon banner.