Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

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Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#1 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Greetings mortals,
Here you will find all the proposed changes and updates for the Ninth Age Elves of Order.
I will be your ambassador and liaison for feedback regarding 'High' Elves.
Any and all thoughts shared here, along with the threads on the Ninth Age Forum and TWF will be passed unto the writers of the Elves of Light, to better incorporate the community into the Army Book process.

If you have any concerns or queries of any of the rules or updates relating to the new Elves of Ulthuwan, please post them here. Or if you have any great ideas you wish to share, please only post ideas within your first post, to keep the thread relatively clean.
Last edited by Asurion Whitestar on Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sincerely,
Kitlith

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Re: Elves of Light Community Feedback- Asurion's your Friend

#2 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

The complete summary below is taken from Giladis' Feedback for EoL thread over on the Ninth Age Forum. Copied here for simplicity.

Please ignore the [lexicon] marks, I'll try and remove them when I have more time.

-----

Post for re-naming suggestions, as more arrive the post will be updated.


ARMY NAME
HIGH ELVES
Elves of Light
Light Elves
Phoenix Elves
Sea Elves
Pure Elves
White Elves


LORDS
PRINCE
High Prince
Prince
Elvish Prince
Elven Prince
Elf Prince
Highborn

ARCHMAGE
Elvish Archmage
Elven Archmage
Elf Archmage
Arch Mage

ANOINTED OF ASURYAN
High Warden of the Flame

LOREMASTER OF HOETH
Master of Paths


HEROES
NOBLE
High Captain
Elvish Captain
Elven Captain
Commander
Elvish Commander
Elven Commander
Elvish Noble
Elven Noble
Noble

MAGE
Elvish Mage
Elven Mage
Elf Mage
Mage

DRAGON MAGE OF CALEDOR
Dragon Mage


CORE
SPEARMEN
Spearelves
Lightspears
Elven Warriors
Elvish Warriors
Elven Phalanx
Spearmen

ARCHERS
Elvish Archer
Elven Archer
Archer
Lightbows

LOTHER SEA GUARD
Spearelves
Sea Guard
Coast Guard
Marines
Elvish Marines
Elven Marines
Sea Warriors

SILVER HELMS
Elvish Heavy Cavalry
Mirror Helms
Gleaming Helms
Noble Cavalry

ELLYRIAN REAVERS
Elvish Light Cavalry
Elyr Knights
Knights of Elyr
Reavers
Reaver Knights


SPECIAL
LION CHARIOT OF CHRACE
Lion Chariot
Lion Guard Chariot
Chariot of Char
Warchariot of Char

WHITE LION OF CHARCE
Lion Guard
Lion Pelts
King's Guard

SWORDMASTERS OF HOETH
Sword Masters
Swordmasters
Blademasters
Bladelords

SHADOW WARRIORS
Shadow Watchers
Scouts
Grey Elves
Shadow Stalkers
Twillight Warriors

PHOENIX GUARD
Protectors of the Flame
Fire Guard
Pyramid Guard
Shirne Guard
Flame Guard
Dawn Guard
Phoenix Monks
Sacred Fire Guardians
Flame Wardens

DRAGON PRINCES OF CALEDOR
Knights of the Dragon Realm
Dragon Cavalry
Dragon Knights
Dragonbound Knights
Dragonbound Brotherhood

LOTHERN SKYCUTTER
Hawk Chariot
Sea Guard Chariot
Swiftwind Chariot
Skyboat
Skyboat Gunship
Sky Chariot
Marine Chariot
Eagle Chariot

TIRANOC CHARIOT
Horse Chariot
Light Warchariot
Warchariot of Tir
Chariot of Tir
Reaver Chariot


RARE
EAGLE CLAW BOLT THROWER
Coast Guard [lexicon]Reaper[/lexicon]
Repeater Bolt Throwers
Elvish Bolt Thrower
Elven Bolt Thrower
Coast Guard Repeater
Sea Guard Repeater

GREAT EAGLE
Giant Eagle
War Eagle
Grand Eagle
Great Eagle

FLAMESPYRE PHOENIX
Fire Phoenix
Flame Phoenix
Phoenix
Firehawk
Pyrehawk

FROSTHEART PHOENIX
Ice Phoenix
Frosthawk
Rimehawk

SISTERS OF AVELORN
Queen's Guard
Sisterhood of the Sacred Glade
Sisters of the Blue Flame
Sisters of Aelon
Sisters of Ealon
Sisters of the Golden Eaves


MOUNTS
ELVEN STEED
Elvish Horse
Elven Horse
Elven Steed
Elvish Steed

GRIFFON
Griffon

SUN DRAGON
Dragon Youngblood
Drake
Wyrmling

MOON DRAGON
Dragon
Wyrm

STAR DRAGON
Ancient Dragon
Great Dragon
Great Gold Dragon
Great Wyrm

-----

Army Wide Special Rule compilation

The rules below have been suggested

AWSR #1: Parry


AWSR #2: Re-roll natural rolls of 1 when rolling to Hit


AWSR #3: Re-roll failed [lexicon]Fear[/lexicon], [lexicon]Terror[/lexicon] and Panic tests; Immune to [lexicon]Fear[/lexicon], [lexicon]Terror[/lexicon] and Panic against Dark Elves


AWSR #4: Automatic pass of Leadership test for Swift Reform


AWSR #5: [lexicon]Armour Piercing[/lexicon] (1)


AWSR #6: Enemy models must reroll all rolls of natural 6s to hit in close combat. The special rules that require a 6 to work (like [lexicon]poisoned attacks[/lexicon]) works with any successful result on the second roll.


AWSR #7: Any attacks from models with this special rule may use their WS instead of strength value when determining the effect on the opponents armour safe. Shooting attacks may use the BS of the model​ shooting instead.


AWSR #8: [lexicon]Killing Blow[/lexicon]


AWSR #9: Enemy units directing attacks against models with this special rules make supporting attacks in one rank less than usual.


AWSR #10: Any roll of 6 to Hit in Close combat, scores two hit.


AWSR #11: When rolling Ld for [lexicon]quick reform[/lexicon], if the test is passed with any doubles being rolled the unit​ may march as normal.


AWSR #12: If a nearby friendly unit​ is successfully charged by an enemy unit​, select a friendly unit​ up to 12" away. Selected unit​ may move D3 inches without reforming.


AWSR #13: Each time a model​ cause a natural 6 to hit in close combat, place a feint counter on enemy character o unit​ hitted. Until the end of the actual [lexicon]close combat phase[/lexicon], you can discart a feint counter of the unit​/model​ to cancel a hit made by it. This counters cannot be used to cancel attacks that impact automatically or attacks made in the same iniciative pass that the one the counted was place. At the end of the [lexicon]close combat phase[/lexicon] discard any counter unused.


AWSR #14: All break tests and combat reforms are resolved with a +1 LD.


AWSR #15: After successfully rolling to wound an enemy [lexicon]model[/lexicon], use the attackers Weapon Skill or Strength (which ever is highest) when determining the models armour save modifier.


AWSR #16: When a unit​ composed by models with this special rule make a Ld test to do a swift reform, combat reform, avoid pursuing and maybe to march, it rolls an additional dice and discard the highest.


AWSR #17: [lexicon]Fight in Extra Rank[/lexicon]. EoL models with this special rule may fight with their full attacks from the second rank.


AWSR #18: Parts of models with this rule have the Devastating Charge​ rule. In addition, parts of models with this rule gain the Distracting special rule against any unit​ that charged them or their unit​ on the front until the end of the turn.


AWSR #19: Units with this special rule may test for Reform, March, Rally, Panic or Redirecting Charges with 3D6, discarding the highest.


AWSR #20: Units with this special rule have [lexicon]Swiftstride[/lexicon] when Charging.


AWSR #21: Units with this special rule treat difficult and [lexicon]dangerous[/lexicon] [lexicon]terrain[/lexicon] as open [lexicon]terrain[/lexicon].
The suggestions above have been stated as replacements for either [lexicon]Fight in Extra Rank[/lexicon], [lexicon]Supernatural Reflexes[/lexicon] or both.


The prevailing attitude in the discussions is that the Fight in Extra Ranks is flawed as a concept of an army wide rule since it only affects a small number of units in a meaningful way. In addition it is a major obstacle in balancing the three elite infantry units.


As far as I can see the High Elf community is by far the most fractured at the moment which in many ways is the result of GWs wanderings in depicting Asur over the editions.

Making a concise feedback for the Army Book Development team will be challenging to put it lightly.

What can be said is that the general direction where most discussions are moving is either ensuring that High Elves practically do not miss in combat or trying to ensure casulties are reduced.

-----

FEEDBACK ON THE PATH OF MAGIC

Let us first start with the general things. The name Path of Valour isn't liked, the only name that recieved any substantial support is White Magic and a fluffy name of Theurgy.

Overwhelmingly HE players have stated that the Path as a whole is underwhelming and adjustments should me made. Almost all of HE and WE players as well as all LM that have joined the discussion have stated that using the same Path and same attributes for all three armies is problematic.

There has also been a discussion on they kind of Path [lexicon]Attribute[/lexicon] the Path should have and the majority of players stated that it should take some form of anti-magic ability though suggestions on how it should be done differ.


I have included in the attachment all the suggested changes to the Path in word document, but have removed any indication who are the authors of ideas to prevent any future bias on the behalf of a team. The persona of the author should not affect the validity of an idea.


Overall the feedback has been rather limited with less than 20 players taking part in the discussion for the moment and the results gathered might not reflect the real situation.

-----

Word of caution playtesting up to this point has only been limited, around 10 games have been reported (not everyone stated how many games they have played in their feedback) so far. Also the experience of people providing playtesting feedback differs, sometimes alot, from the feedback provided by other players.

The general feeling is that Elves of Light aren't special enough and most discussions revolve around wishlisting and creating an ever increasing list of stat rises, buffed abilities and new rules. It is very hard to get them to focus on examining the merit of the current army list.


ARMY AND [lexicon]UNIT[/lexicon] FEEDBACK
The overall impression ranges between "HE are ok, to we now have much more weaknesses then strengths and we weren't particualrly strong to begin with". The people that have actually played the games have on average been content with what they saw.

The [lexicon]Fight in Extra Rank[/lexicon] is not seen by the overwheliming majority of posters as a rule that should be kept as an army wide rule, but reserved for HE units using spears to represent their superior training in comparison to other spear units.

There have been some calls that HE units get access to magical attacks in a similar way how WE have arrows.


CORE
Spearmen: They have been greatly improved but it is felt that a little bit more needs to be done, the most popular options is providing them with the Parry save so they may function as line holders.

Archers: With the addition of an option to take a shield they have made both Spearmen and Sea Guard almost obsolete since for the price they pay they can do the job of either of the two units better than them.

Sea Guard: These guys have been improved and their functionality on the battlefield is satisfactory, but it is has been suggested that their role needs to be changed to set the apart from either Spearmen or Archers. Suggestions range from giving them +1 Ws, [lexicon]Vanguard[/lexicon], [lexicon]Ambush[/lexicon], [lexicon]Quick to Fire[/lexicon], Free Combat Reform/Pivot once the enemy charges them, Skirmish if taken is smaller groups like Ghouls, either as individual buffs or in some combination. What is mostly agreed is that if these improvements happen they should loose option for Heavy Armour to match their more mobile nature.

Reavers: These hasn't been much discussion on them except that they should be given an option for barding to match the models and a special rule that would make them comparable to Dark Riders and Glade Riders, like [lexicon]Quick to Fire[/lexicon].

Silver Helms: The discussion about them did not revolve about them being good or bad (we already know they are good) but whether some minor changes should be introduced to set the apart thematically like giving them +1 Ws to represent their noble status, in the same way elite/noble core units in other armies have better stats than the basic troopers.


SPECIAL
Horse Chariot: It looks decent enough but has been decried as useless as all of HE chariots. There is a vocal minory asking for them to be put inside the core section and that then they would be played. I am unconvinced by the explanation and adding them to Core it would only additionally complicate the effort of making all the core units viable. Others have suggested keeping them in Special but improving their WS stat to match their noble status.

Shadow Warriors: They look decent but it is believed they miss a rule like Hate (Dark Elves)

Phoenix Guard: They are almost the same [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] they have been under the previous book, and the loss of ofensive power has been compensated by improved [lexicon]Fear[/lexicon]. There is alot of [lexicon]fear[/lexicon] that [lexicon]holy attacks[/lexicon] will make the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] overcosted.

White Lions: They are still a good choice but loss of pure [lexicon]Stubborn[/lexicon] has been comented on and some suggestions on increasing their survivability in combat should Attack in Extra Rank be lost have been suggested, like giving them Parry

Swordmaster: Those who have played with them as mostly content, they die alot but they kill stuff alot. As for the HE community envisions them I could probably write a small newspaper article, there are almost as many suggestions how to fix Swordmasters as there are posters taking part in the discussions. Various improvements have been suggested, from Parry, wards saves for each enemy [lexicon]model[/lexicon] killed, improved Initative, making them a [lexicon]Wizard[/lexicon] conclave to name but a few of the suggestions.

Lion Chariot: The opinion is that something needs to be done to make it viable but they are not sure what.

Hawk Chariot: Suggestion is to give it [lexicon]Quick to Fire[/lexicon] so that the Giant Bow may be useful.

Dragon Princes: All have stated that they are now a decent [lexicon]unit[/lexicon], but most posters want more, they want to make them equivalent of Chaos Knights, Knights of the Blood Keep or monstrous cavalry like Demigryphs. They just aren't "special enough" and "shoud be made closer to their background".

Bolt Throwers: No real objections, occasionally a poster comments that it only has 2 wounds.


RARE
Giant Eagle: No objections

Fire Phoenix: Considered better but still believed to need something more.

Frost Phoenix: Considered that the nerf was waranted but believed that some things like A should be inceased



CONCLUSION
Who ever will be working on the High Elf army book will sure have his work cut out for him to make a balance between listening to the members of the HE community who are activly posting, keeping the things balanced and not alienating players of other races.


-----

As for my own thoughts, T4 Elf Lords, Realm and Feat Honours, Conclave Swordmaster Champions, Monstrous Cavalry unit, discuss.

T4 Elf Lords (For all Elf Armies), Elf Lords are thousands of years old, older than many Vampires, hence their superior WS and I, but T3 is an insult to Lords everywhere. Giving T4 only to Lords guarantee that the army itself remains fragile.

Honours could be debated in the same fashion as above with Vampires, or to mention Ogre big names, but perhaps the answer is to denote different Character Types via Honours. Sea Helm or Handmaiden, even the Dark Elf Assassins, Death Hags and Wood Elf Waystalker, Shadowdancers and many missed types could be covered within honours.

A conclave Swordmaster unit or just the Champion allows Light Elves to follow suit with Dark and Wood Elves being able to field a magical unit. I imagine Hand of Glory and Khaine's Fury to be suitable spells to know, perhaps just the Sig spells..?

The Monstrous Cavalry unit included if there would be one would need to be easily converted from current kits or from ongoing ranges, that way the models are represented.
With this in mind, I would suggest Eagle or Hawk riders or even Lion Cavalry with only 2Wounds, why not? Or a unit of Monster Riders, in the case for Dragons, perhaps just a single model like a Dragon Prince riding a Dragon.

Many of these things have been discussed before on TWF and on Ninth Age, as well as here.
Last edited by Asurion Whitestar on Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elves of Light Community Feedback- Asurion's your Friend

#3 Post by Ferny »

T4 lords, i don't have a problem with this. I like that elven physiology has negative limits as well as ws positives. I don't massively object but i don't think its a necessary change.

Honours - no strong opinion.

Magical swordmasters - I hadn't considered that but it could work really well. They're arguably not as good as fast cav casters, but they're bettter than the original horrors. It differentiates between them and pg/wl more. Too powerful? Maybe, we'll see through play. Fluff wise it works.

Monstrous cav - no thoughts on the meta impact. But lion rather than the ever popular drake risers is a good idea given model availability, unless mantic riders are considered, but the model quality is poor Imo.
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Re: Elves of Light Community Feedback- Asurion's your Friend

#4 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

Asurion Whitestar wrote:Shadow Warriors: They look decent but it is believed they miss a rule like Hate (Dark Elves)
I still think that hit and run would be good. Or you could give them Precision Strikes, exactly like the Deathwing Knights.
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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#5 Post by RE.Lee »

Cool topic!

I'd keep T3 on all Elves, it has become a trademark of sorts. T4
Swordmasters as a horrors-type unit is a pretty good idea as right now they don't have much of a role in the army. Hand of Glory and a Magic Missile would work well for them. They'd need a ward save (4+) to keep them alive, so a major points increase as well probably. Or maybe not so major given how the Warlocks are costed - so 20 points maybe?
Honours aren't really needed now we get the Loremaster, Handmaiden (she should be improved though), Seahelm...
Monsterous Cavalry I'm all for - Lion riders would be best, there's so much great conversions out there that this needs to be a real thing!
cheers, Lee

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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#6 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

RE.Lee wrote:Swordmasters as a horrors-type unit is a pretty good idea as right now they don't have much of a role in the army. Hand of Glory and a Magic Missile would work well for them. They'd need a ward save (4+) to keep them alive, so a major points increase as well probably. Or maybe not so major given how the Warlocks are costed - so 20 points maybe?
How about a bound spell like ability + magical attacks + ward saves vs magic only?
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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#7 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:Swordmasters as a horrors-type unit is a pretty good idea as right now they don't have much of a role in the army. Hand of Glory and a Magic Missile would work well for them. They'd need a ward save (4+) to keep them alive, so a major points increase as well probably. Or maybe not so major given how the Warlocks are costed - so 20 points maybe?
How about a bound spell like ability + magical attacks + ward saves vs magic only?
An increased Parry in combat could work also, and a Parry normally for them.
So (-1) Parry vs All attacks, and a (-2) unique double Parry in Combat, which they wouldn't really need with Parry being -1 to Hit.

T4 Lords aren't necessary at this point but would be great for Foot builds for infantry heavy armies.

Honours could almost be necessary if the character option are gone, ie; Handmaiden and Sea Helm.
I'd even propose changing the Loremaster/Pathmaster to a normal type wizard with access to White Magic (maybe that can choose his spells, or roll for a spell from another Path or swap it for the Sig) but a slightly better fighter.
Playing along with this idea would allow Honours to make hero Lv Phoenix or Swordmaster characters, or a lord Lv Handmaiden, Sea Helm or even Dragon Mage. You really could have a themed army with them.


Great responses flowing in.
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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#8 Post by Giladis »

I played against new Sword Masters and they are just right, no need to make them better.
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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#9 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Giladis wrote:I played against new Sword Masters and they are just right, no need to make them better.
Unless I'm reading the discussion wrong I don't they they are talking about improving them because they need improving. Rather they want a unit similar to Warlocks or Sisters of the Thorn. And if you are looking for a unit of casters sword masters kind of make sense.
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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#10 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Giladis wrote:I played against new Sword Masters and they are just right, no need to make them better.
Unless I'm reading the discussion wrong I don't they they are talking about improving them because they need improving. Rather they want a unit similar to Warlocks or Sisters of the Thorn. And if you are looking for a unit of casters sword masters kind of make sense.
That's spot on.

Parry would be a great swap for Deflect Shots.
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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#11 Post by sparkytrypod »

hi asurion,

a mounted griffon is monstrous cavalry with mounts protection and has the large target rule, which states you cannot have mounts protection, can you clarify if it has the mounts protection or not?

i think swordmasters are pretty sweet as is, i dont like the idea of units/champions as wizards,but i think in keeping with the fluff we could give them the channel rule? they are warrior scholars that study at the white tower, a nice hat tip to that?

would parry bump up the cost to about 15 points per model asurion?

on the monstrous cav idea,i haven't seen anything in the rules so far to stop monstrous cav flyers banding together, i.e units of mounted eagle nobles? i might have missed it though. if this is the case we already have eagle/griffon rider models ready to make units with.

if the feeling is that people want more from dragon princes would immune to psychology be appropriate? fits their fluff as arrogant, never fleeing etc. i notice they have gone up to 35 points,i would not like to see it increase, they are still T3 after all!! :D


thanks
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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#12 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

sparkytrypod wrote:hi asurion,

a mounted griffon is monstrous cavalry with mounts protection and has the large target rule, which states you cannot have mounts protection, can you clarify if it has the mounts protection or not?

Page 50, Mounts
- Model is mounted on Warbeast or Chariot: +1. No matter how many mounts a model has, it still only gains this bonus once. Remember that mounted Monstrous Beasts and Monsters don’t give this +1 Armour Save.
I think that covers it, as Monstrous Beasts don't actually give mounts protection.


i think swordmasters are pretty sweet as is, i dont like the idea of units/champions as wizards,but i think in keeping with the fluff we could give them the channel rule? they are warrior scholars that study at the white tower, a nice hat tip to that?

would parry bump up the cost to about 15 points per model asurion?

Channel could be a scholarship. Yeah in my book they would be 15pts for -1 to Hit from all attacks.

on the monstrous cav idea,i haven't seen anything in the rules so far to stop monstrous cav flyers banding together, i.e units of mounted eagle nobles? i might have missed it though. if this is the case we already have eagle/griffon rider models ready to make units with.

Apparently so, I've checked and there seems to be nothing about the contrary. It would best be asked of the rules team though over on the Ninth Age.

if the feeling is that people want more from dragon princes would immune to psychology be appropriate? fits their fluff as arrogant, never fleeing etc. i notice they have gone up to 35 points,i would not like to see it increase, they are still T3 after all!! :D

Sound great to me, they need something to stand against the ColdOne Knights now that they are T4.

thanks
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Re: Elves of Light - Feedback, Asurion's your Voice...

#13 Post by sparkytrypod »

Thanks for the response!

Unreal, so you could have a mounted griffon lord and a flock of eagle nobles if all goes to plan! Probobly not very good, but funny!
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