Elves of Light - first impressions

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings,

I have just quickly read the new army lists for Elves of Light. As advertised these are meant to be as simplified versions, kind of fundamentals to base on the work on the full army books in the future. Here are some things I noticed after first reading:

1. No command options for Fast Cavalry.
2. Heavy Armor for Spears as an upgrade, can be equipped with bows too.
3. Core units (not Fast Cavalry) can have 25 points magic banner.
4. Scouts cheaper and with additional hand weapon.
5. Protectors of the Flame (Phoenix Guard) cannot have more than 15 models in a unit.
6. Knights of the Dragon Realm (Dragon Princes) 30points, no more than 15 models in a unit.
7. Lion Guard are now Bodyguards meaning they are stubborn only with non-champion character, Lion Fur = Scaly Skin 5+ against non-magical shooting attacks.
8. Swordmasters (and Loremaster) have Parry rule due to their Elvish Longsword meaning they are -1 to hit. No deflecting shots though.
9. Tiranoc Chariots have free reform, Skycutters seem to be cheaper.
10. Bolt Thrower 80 points
11. Flame Phoenix cheaper, Frost more expensive and frost aura is -3 to Initiative and -1 to strength.
12. Sisters may have magic arrows like Wood Elves (if I understood correctly player declares which ones before the game)
13. Big monsters fly but slower Fly(8).
14. No upgrades for Griffons or Eagles
15. Even fewer magic items - and these seem to be reworked too.

First impressions are:

1. Core better thanks to heavy armor, new rules for spears and magic banners. Although I am not sure why no command for fast cavalry.
2. Some special choices slightly better (Scouts, Chariots, Swordmasters) but some have additional limitations (small units of PG, bodyguards for Lions).
3. Not sure about new frost aura, is it going to change anything or is it going to have the same effect in practice?
4. The biggest changes are in the area of magic and with Supernatural reflexes, i.e. replacement for ASF.

Cheers!

[Giladis]

You missed a very important thing - Bolt Throwers got Multiple Shot in addition to price increase.

Everything else I am fine with even with the return to stubborn only with a character for WL.


edit @ I missed the unit size for Phoenix Guard, I think it is a typo.

[Ferny]

Does the option of equiping spears with bows effectively mean that they've merged seaguard into spears, but given both the option of heavy armour?

I don't know why a lot of these changes have been made. With the exception of PG restriction and possibly large monster fly rate I don't think they necessarily make a huge amount of different. So DPs are limited to 15, so what? Griffons and eagles can't upgrade - seems a shame to lose the option, its not like either were massively popular choices with or without. Chariot changes won't make enough of a difference, I prefer Furion's solution here (can't remember if he gave skycutter QtF as well, but I think it should have it). Magic banners for core I welcome, and I note they've found an interesting way to get around it potentially making sisters somewhat redundant (i.e. flame banner on archers) - not sure if I like it or not, but it solves a problem I would otherwise have been voicing.

Overall I think the changes aren't problematic, I just largely don't see the point. I haven't looked at magic rules for 9th Age or Furionhammer, but based purely on changes made to the high elf book I think Furion's done a better job of it, where I judge based on neither making problematic changes but only his making more units truly viable.

[Giladis]

You have to remember many things done in the TAC are only temporary until proper AB can be produced over the next few weeks.

As for how the changes affect my current army

Giladis - Prince @ 255 pts
Dragon Armour, General
Ogre Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Pidgeoun Plucker Pendant, Crown of Command
Item combination no longer possible

Alithor - Loremaster @ 310 pts
Book of Hoeth, Khaine's Ring of Fury
Item combination no longer possible

Imraldar - Noble @ 119 pts
Heavy Armour, BSB
Relic Sword, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem
Item combination no longer possible

24 Sea Guard @ 318 pts
Full Command, Shields

24 Sea Guard @ 318 pts
Full Command, Shields

19 Phoenix Guard @ 360 pts
Full Command, Razor Standard

20 White Lions @ 290 pts
Full Command

20 Swordmasters @ 290 pts
Full Command

2 RBT @ 140 pts

2 GE @ 100 pts

TOTAL: 2500

So I will have to rework magic items or characters for the army.

As far as units are concerned my core is unchanged just no with better armour and better rules for spears as for the rest it is mostly unchaged apart from the RBT-s that force me to find 20 pts extra in the army and are a worse choice than before. I might be tempted to exchange them for Sisters.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Usual penalty for multiple shot for bolt throwers is a good thing as it does not create further exceptions. One thing I didn't like about Warhammer was that you could always have some exceptions and that in turn created a lot of problems.

Bolt throwers are powerful weapons and it was quite boring to see 4 of them in almost every army out there.

In general, I think the army is weaker than it used to be but I actually like it because it is weaker mainly in the aspects that were abused and created army lists that were far better than possible alternatives. Maybe now people will have to use actual tactics to win their games (That is of course a joke in case somebody takes it too literally).

I think it is very important to look at the army lists as a part of the whole set, i.e. core rules and magic. Each of the three components was reworked so that in order to find how your force works you need to take all three of them into account.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

It also seems that the Loremaster and Swordmasters do not have great weapons but new type of weapon that requires two hands and adds +2 to strength. That means Swordmasters have +1 to hit. I guess that means they are far better than before, hitting majority of the targets at 2+ and being hit with -1 penalty (typically 5+ for any other units).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

As expected, the more I read the more I learn what is in the new list.

Sisters, called Queen's Guard, have special rule called Master Archers. It means they actually have all 5 different types of arrows and choose which one to shoot. That is very good indeed as they can be very versatile. And they also have full command group option. Musician for swift reforms will be a very good option now.

[Giladis]

I was mistaken about RBT-s, they are volley guns and per rulebook do not suffer the penalty for Multiple shot.

[Cold Phoenix]

Dragon Princes are S4 base .
White Lion Chariot and Skycutters are cheaper.
Frostheart lost 1 WS&A
Dragons are cheaper. 200 points for Sun Dragon, 280 points for Moon Dragon, 350 points for Star Dragon. Sun and Moon are both WS5 with an extra wound. Star is an upgrade of Moon with the same profile as 8th apart from WS6 and I3.

[ArhangelusM]

And RBT are special now, do not forget that one...

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I definitely missed these two, i.e. S4 for DP and BT being special.

Hm, 2A at S4 (S6 when charging) that is a huge improvement. They will be ultimate heavy cavalry for the Elves now while SH will be further pushed toward similar role as Reavers, i.e. support.

BT are not 2 per choice anymore so you can take up to 3 per army but other than that there is no limit on what percentage of the army comes from special units.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Protectors of the Flame are S4 now, with halberds that is S5 and might be -3 to save with the usual banner granting AP(1).

[Cold Phoenix]

I definitely missed these two, i.e. S4 for DP and BT being special.

Hm, 2A at S4 (S6 when charging) that is a huge improvement. They will be ultimate heavy cavalry for the Elves now while SH will be further pushed toward similar role as Reavers, i.e. support.

BT are not 2 per choice anymore so you can take up to 3 per army but other than that there is no limit on what percentage of the army comes from special units.

I did some Maths and it looks like 6-7 charging Dragon Princes will be able to beat and possibly run down smaller units of MC, rather than sticking for a round, losing combat in the second round and getting run down. S4 is also a godsend for drawn-out combats.

Phoenix Guard look very good. All they need now is that strange 5-15 unit cap to change to a 5-20 or 5-25.

[Elithmar]

Protectors of the Flame being 5-15 annoys me. Nice that they added S4 though. I suppose I might move more to MSU, especially with Sword Masters being cheaper. Otherwise Queen's Guard seem like a no-brainer choice now; I probably won't be taking bolt throwers any more (I was torn on which was better anyway). I haven't looked through the Paths yet, but I don't see any point in taking an Archmage instead of a Master of Paths, now that the Path of Valour has been nerfed so much. Finally, I was actually quite looking forward to using a Sea Helm on Skycutter with the new mount rules, so annoyed about him not being in the list.

These new names are going to take some getting used to. Also, characters can take an 'Elvish Chariot', but there is no entry for this. I assume they mean Horse Chariot, so why didn't they type this? Or does it mean characters can take any of our three chariots for 70 points?

EDIT: Are these unit caps permanent, or just until the proper army books come out? Has anyone compared this to other armies to see how they compare in power?

[Elithmar]

Here's an interesting change which will affect Sword Masters. Parry now makes a model -1 to hit, which can't be combined with other modifiers. Definitely worse than the original 5+ ward.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I asked the question about Elvish Longsword on the 9th Age forum as I also noticed that rule about parry. Is it worse than 5++ parry? Hard to tell, I think both have benefits.

In the case of Swordmasters and assuming I am also reading their rules correctly, Swordmasters will hit opponents with WS5 or worse on 2+ because their Longsword is not great weapon. Hence, they benefit from +1 to hit due to Supernatural reflexes. In addition, any attacks back from such opponents will hit on 5+. It is a very good situation in my opinion and Swordmasters will be that glass cannon they supposed to be (in my opinion of course).

Sisters are really good I think. Their S4 was nice but they have many more options now and can have full command group! That is awesome! I think they will be good together with Bolt Throwers though. Just for the flexibility of the shooting phase.

Protectors of the Flame look very tempting in MSU now, more than Lions I am afraid. But I believe Lions will still do great with the typical set up with characters and High Mage. Sure, they are not going to get that 3++ ward anymore but they will still do their job as Bodyguards. I believe some refining of the lists will deal with the initial changes well.

I haven't checked other lists yet so I don't know how these are affected.

However, it is often highlighted that it is just the first draft. The real work starts now. I believe they will start recruiting players for their Task Forces dedicated to each army list soon. When that is done these people will commence their work to get the proper army books as soon as possible. I am also told it will rather be a living rule book/army book so every player should use that opportunity to provide their feedback, ideas and play test as much as possible. While there is no guarantee they will use your ideas in their product they will definitely read all of them. And you can be sure they care about what other players say.

Cheers!

[Giladis]

Cosi,dering all the typos in the document I am sure Phoenix Guard will be S3 and have unit size comparable to white lions.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Just got a reply about Longsword: it gets +1 to hit but parry cannot be further modified.

One more thing I noticed in conjunction with the Flame Protectors is that Fear works differently. The unit that touches fear causing model gets -1 to Ld and then it has to make a Ld based test. If failed, the unit has WS1. That is definitely an improvement to Fear causing units in general.

On the matter of magic there will be a further explanation as one of the rules creators said he gets a lot of negative feedback. I will share his explanations as soon as he posts them on 9th Age forum.

[ArhangelusM]

All the changes are here until the Army Book rework finishes.

So, it's all temporary...

[Shadeseraph]

First on, on parry:

Parry can only be used if on foot, against attacks from the front.
Attacks allocated at a model with parry suffer a -1 penalty when rolling To Hit, which cannot be combined with any other negative to hit modifiers.

From what I'm reading, it doesn't specify "close combat" or "melee", only "from the front". This means the penalization applies to shooting too. It makes sense, being a rule for shields.

Second, in regards to keepers of the flame, S4 and -1 to enemy LD from fear are very good boosts at no cost increase on a unit that was already fabulously great. I can perfectly understand why they are capped to 5-15. I'd rather see them back as our definitive anvil (S3 and higher count), but if they are to stay at S4 base I'd rather not see them in units over 15.

Prince on dragon with nullstone seems like a meta-definer. Sure, it has weaknesses, but the ability to shut down the enemy Lvl 4 from a monster with T6, AS3+ and 7W that can grind pretty much anything to a halt seems very powerful.

As noted elsewhere, I absolutely adore the changes to swordmasters, Dragon Knights and Queen's Guard. With a passion.

[Elithmar]

Prince on dragon with nullstone seems like a meta-definer. Sure, it has weaknesses, but the ability to shut down the enemy Lvl 4 from a monster with T6, AS3+ and 7W that can grind pretty much anything to a halt seems very powerful.

It's worth remembering that a ridden monster uses the mount's saves, so the character won't be wasting points which could have been used for defence. The only other major use of his magic allowance would be for magic weapons.

[ArhangelusM]

Do not forget the 80pt 5++ save for mount...