High Magic

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pk-ng
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High Magic

#1 Post by pk-ng »

Old
New
Changes

Spell #Attribute
+1 to ward save or 6++
Wood Elf attribute
Big change

Spell #0 Soul Quench
2D6 S4 18" 8+
4D6 S4 18" 16+
2D6 S4 18" 9+
4D6 S4 18" 17+

+1 to cast for both versions

Spell #0 Drain Magic
Dispel Stuff 18" 7+
Dispel Stuff Aura 18" 14+
Dispel stuff 18" 7+
Dispel Stuff 18" 14+

None

Spell #1 Apotheosis
Recover 1W, Fear 18" 5+
Recover D3W, Fear 18" 10+
Recover 1W 18" 5+
Recover D3W 18" 10+

Lost Fear

Spell #2 Hand of Glory
+D3 to WS, BS, I or M 18" 5+
+D3 to WS, BS, I and M 18" 10+
+D3 to WS, BS, I or M 18" 5+
+D3 to WS, BS, I and M 18" 10+

None

Spell #3 Walk Between World
Ethereal M10 movement 24" 8+
Ethereal M20 Movement 24" 16+
Ethereal M10 movement 24" 8+
Ethereal M20 Movement 24" 16+

None

Spell #4 Tempest
Scatter Large Template D6" S3. Suffer 1W+ suffer -1 to-hit or 4+ to shoot 30" 8+
Shield of the White Tower
Target gains a Ward Save (6+) and has +1 to all its
Ward Saves (to a maximum of 3+). 12" 11+
Target gains a Ward Save (6+) and has +1 to all its
Ward Saves (to a maximum of 3+). 24" 14+
Totally different spell

Spell #5 Arcane Unforging
Metalshifting 1W. 2+ destroy item. 24" 13+
Metalshifting 1W. 2+ destroy item. 18" 13+
Reduced range

Spell #6 Fiery Convocation
Every model S4 RIP 24" 19+
Every model S3 RIP 24" 16+
Every model S4 RIP 24" 18+

Cheaper to cast and even cheaper to dispel

What are people's opinion on the new "Path of Valour"?

Overall not impressed as it a nerf. The 2 biggest attraction to the lore was Arcane Unforging and the Lore Attribute. With Unforging reduced in range...the caster can easily be within charge range for any Cavalry / Flyer unit(s) unless I'm in a non-LoS-able position. Casting a spell to increase ward save is quite an expensive spell to cast for that....I didn't see an abuse of the 3++ with high magic.
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Re: High Magic

#2 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

If I had more than a passing interest in 9th age I'd be really annoyed about the change to the lore attribute. I see very few reasons to take it under that set up.

Fortunately we've always been able to come up with our own house rules and just use the ones others come up with for ideas. In the case of 9th age it's likely we'll reject the vast majority of the ideas.
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Re: High Magic

#3 Post by Makiwara »

The Lore attribute itself has been nerfed in comparison to the original WE attribute where the protection counters came off after ward saves; you won't be seeing the hard to kill Highweaver Unicorn combo or the really the only combat character build WE's had with two Great Stags and the highweaver in a unit of Sisters. It's much less attractive now.
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Re: High Magic

#4 Post by Arhain »

Not impressed either. The lore did not need big changes, and they seem to have thought it did. Also hate the name. High Magic is as generic as Dark Magic, no need to change the name to the silky Path of Valour.
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Re: High Magic

#5 Post by Cold Phoenix »

I'm not enthused by the Path of Valour either. The only interesting change I can see is that you choose when Protection Counters are used, allowing them to be saved for use against cannons and other high S hits. Between that and the changes to ridden monsters, an Archmage on Star Dragon with a few counters saved (and generating a couple more each turn) could be interesting. You probably wouldn't be able to nullify 2 Cannonballs and 2 Grudge Throwers shots each turn, but you might be able to get an undamaged dragon into combat against O&G, empire with <3 cannons and Brets.
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Re: High Magic

#6 Post by pk-ng »

Arhain wrote:Not impressed either. The lore did not need big changes, and they seem to have thought it did. Also hate the name. High Magic is as generic as Dark Magic, no need to change the name to the silky Path of Valour.
Had to change it for IP purposes
Cold Phoenix wrote:I'm not enthused by the Path of Valour either. The only interesting change I can see is that you choose when Protection Counters are used, allowing them to be saved for use against cannons and other high S hits. Between that and the changes to ridden monsters, an Archmage on Star Dragon with a few counters saved (and generating a couple more each turn) could be interesting. You probably wouldn't be able to nullify 2 Cannonballs and 2 Grudge Throwers shots each turn, but you might be able to get an undamaged dragon into combat against O&G, empire with <3 cannons and Brets.
I can't forsee myself using it. Wasn't doable with High before definitely not doable now.
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Re: High Magic

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

Don't like it.

The HE lore attribute added some great synergy into high magic.
The increase in casting value for soul quench was unnecessary, considering the short range.
Losing Fear for apotheosis feels a bit like kicking a man when he's down. There was no need for it. Granting fear is hardly overpowered.
Tempest went from situational to almost useless in my opinion. Granting something a 6+ wardsave is not very good. Praying for sixes is never a sound strategy, especially given the generally smaller units an elven army has. The only strong point of the old lore attribute was that it stacked. But having this turn into a spell means you can have only one version of it. And for 11+ its too expensive in my opinion. It's pretty much only useful on PG and SM now.
The reduced range for unforging brings all sorts of problems with it. And with the change in the lore attribute you're not going to see many mages in the front line.

All in all, I feel they've taken a lore which had some interesting niche uses but wasn't very strong otherwise and simply removed the niche uses and left us with a lore that's simply not very strong.

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Re: High Magic

#8 Post by cptcosmic »

Prince of Spires wrote:Don't like it.

The HE lore attribute added some great synergy into high magic.
The increase in casting value for soul quench was unnecessary, considering the short range.
Losing Fear for apotheosis feels a bit like kicking a man when he's down. There was no need for it. Granting fear is hardly overpowered.
Tempest went from situational to almost useless in my opinion. Granting something a 6+ wardsave is not very good. Praying for sixes is never a sound strategy, especially given the generally smaller units an elven army has. The only strong point of the old lore attribute was that it stacked. But having this turn into a spell means you can have only one version of it. And for 11+ its too expensive in my opinion. It's pretty much only useful on PG and SM now.
The reduced range for unforging brings all sorts of problems with it. And with the change in the lore attribute you're not going to see many mages in the front line.

All in all, I feel they've taken a lore which had some interesting niche uses but wasn't very strong otherwise and simply removed the niche uses and left us with a lore that's simply not very strong.

Rod
couldnt say it better than Rod.

the only thing I would change is in high magic is turning tempest into a curse and remove the damage part effectively changing it into a usefull debuff that can be also used in/into combats.
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Re: High Magic

#9 Post by Giladis »

I am ok-ish with the changes but you guys need to remember that much playtesting along with army books is yet to come before this is polished.

I will agree that spells became weaker than they used to be but so did in many other lores, magic in general has been toned down. As for the attribute I don't like it, just as much as I didn't like the similar thing in the WE book or our old attribute. Getting wards saves just doesn't sit with me very well for some reason. Bonuses to dispelling, now that would have been an appropriate attribute.
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Re: High Magic

#10 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I asked about the reason for different lore attribute some time ago on TWF but didn't get the answer. I will try again on 9th Age forum.

In general, I want to see first what is the first draft of the new army list as we will have the full picture then. It does look like HM is weaker now and definitely works differently.

The good thing is that people should be able to apply for being added to "Task Force" dedicated to each army book and thus having a direct impact on what is going to happen next. It is just the first draft and while it would be good to have more insight why particular changes were made at all, it is not final product.

Then next good thing is that you can provide feedback, playtest etc. I am sure if it is well reasoned then they will listen.

Last but not least, more general question, not only about High Magic. I think it is a good idea to start with the general concept how High Elves should work on the battle field. In theory, it is known but in practice and in particular in the frame of 9th Age core rules, that general image should be, in my opinion, defined again.

In addition, whatever the overall description might be, the ideal would be to have the core rules and the army books that support different ways of play as equally as possible.
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Re: High Magic

#11 Post by cptcosmic »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:It does look like HM is weaker now and definitely works differently.
the changes benefit a LM player with a slann in this temple guard receiving all kinds of protections thus can work around the shorter ranges.

for HE the changes are bad. shorter ranges in combinations with no ward protection for wizard and higher cast values on top of it? its no just weaker, alot of synergy got wiped away.
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Re: High Magic

#12 Post by Ladril Caledor »

I don't like the changes at all, and I agree with the previous points on this thread. I honestly can't see anyone wanting to use the Lore of Valour, considering how anyone who can access to it has access to more powerful lores. Compared to the new Beasts this is terrible.

Hopefully changes will be made after feedback so universally negative.
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Re: High Magic

#13 Post by Cold Phoenix »

Some people were asking about the Path of Valour on the 9th age forum (the one which is actually part of 9th age's website not the Warhammer forum version). One of the 9th Age rules team posted this about the new "Shield of the White Tower" spell http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php? ... of-valour/. It seems that the intent of the spell is to give a 5++ to units without a ward. Units which already have a ward just get +1 to to their ward save.
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Re: High Magic

#14 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I asked the following questions about new magic:
1. What was the general idea about Path of Valour, i.e. what kind of magic and role in the army you wanted to create?

2. What was the reason for attribute change? Why is the attribute the same for different armies who can use this path?

3. Why Arcane Unforging range was shortened?
Here are the answers from Sir_joker, member of the Rules-Team:
Ad 1) Path of Valour should maintain the same feeling like before. Being a "race specific" lore which can be taken by multiple armies makes this lore a special case because you have to have an eye on every potential combination. If you buff a certain spell this can be completely fine for LM but outright broken for HE for instance. The Path of Valour has always incorporated elements of all the usual paths - this was its true origin.

Ad 2) The team made the decision that each army should be able to use the Path with the same effects - therefore the same attributes. It was a decision based on the desire to streamline this lore. Balancing the Path effects against different attributes as well as armies seemed to be a problem. Furthermore players would need to remember different attributes for the same lore.

Ad 3) Arcane unforging is a very potent spell - being a snipe and vaults unmaking makes it a very potent weapon. We did not want to nerf the effect per se but thought that a range reduction would bring its power level to where we wanted it to be.


As stated before this lore is basically the only one getting overall negative feedback. I will talk with the others about this and we will find a solution that suits game design as well as player's desire. It will probably take some amount of time to get to a compromise but I think we will hit the mark in the end.

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Re: High Magic

#15 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

It would seem to me that answers 1 and 2 conflict with each other.
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Re: High Magic

#16 Post by Delaqure »

Ugh! Don't like the attribute need at all! I would have rather they left the lore as is rather than nerf the attribute.
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Re: High Magic

#17 Post by Joaco »

I agree a lot with everyone. In my opinion, HE lore wasnt overpowered at all. Was balanced and have something good for each situation (healing, buffing, movement, etc.) but nothing to great that unbalance the game. In comparison to other lores, the only stronger spell was the magic missle.
If you think about the history and personalities of the army in the game, High elves should be one of the strongest races with magic (along with Liz), and reading this lore and attribute, it doesnt feels like it, at all.
I know it isnt an easy job to do, but I think every critique is constructive. :D
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Re: High Magic

#18 Post by RE.Lee »

High Magic sucked before so what can I say. I guess all the other lores were nerfed even more, as the idea that magic was overpowered seemed so common among the ETC guys.
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Re: High Magic

#19 Post by Ceridan »

RE.Lee wrote:High Magic sucked before so what can I say. I guess all the other lores were nerfed even more, as the idea that magic was overpowered seemed so common among the ETC guys.

Sadly no. Some spells were nerfed, mostly the 6th spells. Purple sun is on 1" template instead of 3", Dwellers allows for the first failed test to be ignored...

Other then that, the lores were made either better or more versatile. Like, Death has buffs, Regrowth is no a RiP (so the effect happens each friendly magic phase)...
One common thing about the 8th lores of magic is that all the attributes were made good and usable in almost any situation. High Magic has probably the worst one at this point (shadow is debatable).
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