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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:42 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
It looks like at the moment the High Magic lore attribute is exactly the same for HE, WE and LM. I am not sure why they decided to do so. I tried to check relevant topic at TWF but despite the fact some players asked about it there is no answer to that yet.

I think it is not necessary change and I believe it should be addressed so hopefully in further iterations of the rules army specific lore attributes will return.


Many, especially myself, have raised a considerable furor over this (the Lizardmen players didn't like it either). As it stands in 9th Age, High Magic is probably the worst lore around. I think one of two things will happen: the lore attributes will revert back, or the lore itself will be rewritten to fit new army designs. The 9th Age people are more ambitious than I thought, they really want to change the game.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:35 pm 
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Well, I for one must say I like the )th Age rules a lot.

They are not perfect but they are getting there, it's still only Alpha version.

What can be seen so far from the changes made, their goal is to make each and every option available in the game be worth taking, be it magic, units, items, etc...

This initiative has the largest chance of being successful from all other present at the moment, including Furion's.

As it stands, not only swedish guys are working on it, it is a much wider initiative, with members form other gaming community's and country's, there is a chance for cooperation between Mantic and The 9th Age initiative (there was a guy from 9th present at ETC as well as a guy working for Mantic present there so we introduced them and let them do the talking, can't say how that one will go, but it's a start).

And not to mention kickstarter option for making the rules available as a printed book and such.

So many options and opportunity's for us to grasp if we but try! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:41 pm 
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So really quick, is this Furion's? Is this ETC? Is this by the Swedes? It would be nice if EVERYONE stopped making their own and the entire WHFB community helps create one together.

Also, I'd love to have a helping hand in this. I just don't have the time to run an entire project by myself any more, but I can still offer some help :>

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:16 pm 
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HERO wrote:
So really quick, is this Furion's? Is this ETC? Is this by the Swedes?


My understanding is that the Swedes started it, ETC joined in, and now there's an open online feedback system via the warhammer forums. Anyone actually in the loop able to confirm this?

Quote:
It would be nice if EVERYONE stopped making their own and the entire WHFB community helps create one together


My view too. The counter-argument is 'market forces' i.e. let the players decide. The counter-counter is 'market fragmentation' IMO.

Quote:
Also, I'd love to have a helping hand in this. I just don't have the time to run an entire project by myself any more, but I can still offer some help :>


I think Furion is going solo. Not sure whether his stuff is getting fed into 9th Age or not. But if you wanted to be involved in a fan-ed but don't have the capacity to go the whole hog solo, 9th Age is probably the biggest community-based one I've seen, although I think there are others (e.g. 8.5th). It'd be interesting to have your professional input into the discussions, although be aware before you start that you'll be one fish amongst thousands, which I think is part of the motivation for going solo/small group.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:17 pm 
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It'd be interesting to have your professional input into the discussions, although be aware before you start that you'll be one fish amongst thousands, which I think is part of the motivation for going solo/small group.


Except, only a few fish swim in the right direction, and those tend to stand out.

Thanks for the info though!

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:56 am 
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From ETC POV there's only 2 post 8th edition projects been currently considered
9th Age -> Original by the Swedes
8.5 Furion -> by Furion

The others are not currently been considered and I doubt they will be consider base on the fact they have minimum exposure.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:17 am 
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Why not merge the two or work together on one?

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:06 am 
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Well, the Sweeds are cooperating with a wider community and there are people form other county's working on the projest with them.

I see you are beginning to post at the TWF, HERO. :mrgreen:

You should contact [AUT]ThEjOkEr on TWF or some other member of the team and offer them your help. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:57 pm 
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http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7#p1557067

That's pretty much all I have to say about 9th Ed.

I'll have to take a more indepth look into the overall design approach tonight.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:21 pm 
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http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/index.php?news/14-the-9th-age-team-presentation/

The guys behind the 9th Age introduce themselves! :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:16 pm 
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Is there a (reasonably) comprehensive list of what fan editions are out there? I realise that in principle there could be as many fan rules as there are players, but some must be more progressed and supported than others...So far I categorically know of FurionHammer and 9th Age, but I've seen forum posts on dakka, warseer, etc which are definitely talking about fan rules, but I'm not sure if they're wishlists or organised projects (either multi-member or solo run). Anyone following the ecology of fan rules out there?

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:52 pm 
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I know the guy who does thishttp://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.com/ is also planning on doing a bit of an 8.5/9 thing. I can't say we use any of his army books, but we do look though them for ideas. And he does do a better job of going back and fixing problems than GW ever did. So we will at least give his work a look, and then stubbornly continue to use our own convoluted but well known (by us) house rules that have built up over the last 20 years....


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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:18 am 
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@Ferny
Don't think so...I think it's because the dust isn't settled yet and after September after the Captain's council has made their decision all the other packs will either die out or used for casual games.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:49 am 
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http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/?s=e4d64707ab8c2fbbf0b74c82f66bb658a070afcd

The 9th age is almost upon us (it should be out on 11th of september at the latest).

And they are giving us some sneak peaks on the incoming rules changes, one sneak peak per day! :mrgreen:

Take a look! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:16 am 
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From Sir_Joker from 9th Age rules team:

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We will include community experts from each race in the army book creation process - our point of view is that people who have the best knowledge and actually do care most should be part of the rules design team for each army book. This process will start after the beta release.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:06 pm 
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I like that a lot...

That is why we, as Asur community should be active on this thing, so we can offer input into the project! :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:45 am 
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Quote:
Spear. Fight in Extra Ranks. Killing Blow against Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry and Chariots engaged in the front.

Quote:
Elvish Warriors 8 pt/model
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8

Infantry Base size: 20x20mm
Unit size: 10-50
Special Rules: Killer Habits, Supernatural Reflexes
Equipment: Light Armour, Shield
Options: All models may take: Spear (free)
Command Group (max 1 each): Standard Bearer (10 pt) [Magic Standard up to 25 pt], Musician (10 pt), Champion (10 pt)

They have revised spearmen and the changes are as follows
a) 1 point cheaper (from 9pts -> 8 pts).
b) Spears are no longer mandatory
c) Limited min & max unit size
d) Killing Blow given to Spears against Cavalry, MC and Chariots.

IMHO the addition of KB is a nice little power boost for them to counter these hard hitting units. Most importantly KB has been changed to "no Armour Save" AND against Cavalry, War Beast and Infantry KB does (D3) wounds. This gives a random element to KB (with slight nerf) but no AS give them a slight boost. Overall I think KB got slightly better especially now that more units have access to it. This in turn will slightly nerf Cavalry Bus that seems to be popular in some builds.

Also the changes in points while not significant it does make they slightly more viable. Not making spears mandatory increases their flexibility and the question is would you take them with or without spears? 5+ with KB or 5+/6++?

My initial impression is that HW+S combo would be good in small units of 10 as bunkers and/or redirectors whilst the Spear option would be better in large units 20-25+ to maximise damage especially with up to 3-4 ranks for HE (if they change martial prowess).

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:58 am 
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It definitely sounds like an improvement to spears. I think it needs to be seen / tested to see if it makes them viable. But it's at least something. Limited min & max unit size (though I'm not sure what exactly is meant) sounds silly. The fewer restrictions on unit sizes the better in general it is I think.

As for KB, doing D3 wounds vs Cavalry, War Beast and Infantry sounds not very useful. How many Cavalry, War Beast and Infantry units with more then 1W which are not characters are there? I can't think of any really. So the D3 wounds are simply wasted. Yes, it means that you probably don't want to charge a character model into a fully ranked spear unit. But other then that, I don't think it will come into play a lot.

It will make HE spears less of a pushover, especially for smaller, heavily armored units. With ASF, you get a 75% hit ratio, which means that for every 24 spears you get 3 wounds (on average) with no armour save vs a lot of things.

Of course, the problem with infantry at the end of 8th in general wasn't so much because of Cavalry, War Beast and Infantry but rather because of the rise of monstrous infantry and cavalry. So exactly the stuff you would want to get D3 wounds against is the stuff you're not getting it against...

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:26 am 
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Do not forget that this is only a temporary fix, it's Elf warrior profile for their "Ravening Hordes" document that will go out together with the main rulebook. True work begins afterwards, with applications open for work teams of 5 people that will work on army books under supervision and guidance from the 9th Age original crew.

So this profile will be the core from which work begins, but I believe that changing it will not be needed.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:03 am 
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About d3 wounds per KB being useless:

Quote:
Spear. Fight in Extra Ranks. Killing Blow against Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry and Chariots engaged in the front.


It is also good idea to remember these changes are not made in a vacuum. And whatever they have changed so far + sneak peaks will be the full picture with their Beta release. Even then it is just the very beginning. I think it is unfair to label anything silly, especially without prior playtesting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:15 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
About d3 wounds per KB being useless:

Quote:
Spear. Fight in Extra Ranks. Killing Blow against Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry and Chariots engaged in the front.


Yes, but what I was referring to was

Quote:
Killing Blow
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule (or an attack with this Special Rule) rolls an unmodified '6' to wound with an attack, this attack ignores armour save. Furthermore, if the target is Infantry, Cavalry or War Beast, the attack has the Multiple Wounds (D3) special rule. Unless otherwise specified, a model with the Killing Blow special rule only applies it to its close combat attacks.

So you only get the D3 wounds against models that very rarely have more then 1 W on their profile. Silly might not be the most accurate term, but it is not actually useful.

That is not to say that KB is not a useful rule for spears. Bypassing armour saves against these models is already a big bonus, even if it only happens every 12 attacks on average.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:08 am 
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My mistake, thanks for pointing it out.

Unlike GW designers, the 9th Age rules guys actually have their reasons for what they are doing. What is more, you can simply ask them what did they try to achieve with particular rule. They are pretty fast with addressing any issues people might have.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:14 am 
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Rod I guess that's true...whilst the upgrade doesn't make them good it at least doesn't make them as "bad"...not sure if that's the right way to describe them.

Only Infantry would matter at the moment is Blightkings but they are ignore End Times atm

Overall I think the buffs make the spearmen "less bad" or maybe average. It'll definitely be interesting to use them. I tried some Eternal Guard list but had some pretty bad dice to make any decent conclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:22 am 
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I believe this KB rule is fine as is. True, D3 W against monstrous stuff would be more useful, but I believe it would actually be too good for the points - those 24 attacks you talk about, Rod, would kill two demigryphs in a round.

With the points costs in the alpha version, demis a 65 points, so you get roughly 24/25 spearelves for 3 of them. Now, if they charge, you kill one before they get to strike (20 attacks, counting the odd non KB wound - that's actually 2.92W...). Let's say they deal 5 wounds in exchange. That's combat res 6 for them (they charged), while you have 3 + 2 ranks. You lose, but probably hold on steadfast. Next round, you start grinding them, and in the end you probably end up winning. Of course, there's variance in this going on both sides: you could fail to kill one in the first round, which would give them 7.5 wounds in the first round (but you're still steadfast). They could have luck when hitting on 4+, or bad luck, which would swing combat. But the point is: spearelves now have a chance. Even better if you manage to charge them.
And I like how that combat happens: they win the first round because they're big, ferocious beasts, but the numbers and discipline of the spears make the difference in the end...
(of course, all of this is in a vacuum: no magic, no support/counter charge etc. But that's still better than before).

If KB gives D3W against demis, suddenly, you win that fight much more easily. And that's a whole part of the battlefield the demis don't want to enter.

Of course, the output of that simulation will change as soon as the beta rules are out, since even small changes will have a direct consequence on the combat result. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:06 pm 
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Beta version is ready to download from the main website. They will add magic and army lists tomorrow and the day after tomorrow.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:46 am 
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I see a lot of people mention that the ASF rules have changed in the 9th age. But I can't find what it's been changed into. Anyone have a clue / wants to post the new rule?

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:41 am 
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Quote:
Supernatural Reflexes
If a model (or part of it) with this Special Rule would be striking at initiative 0, it strikes at his own unmodified
Initiative instead (such as Great Weapons or the Acquiescence spell). Otherwise, the model’s Close Combat Attacks
have +1 To Hit.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:49 am 
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Thank you Swordmaster. Makes sense that I couldn't find it then. I was looking in the wrong place...

I'd be interested to see what this means for the elven races in terms of balance. ASF is a very powerful rule (no argument there). But that also means that it is factored into the points costs of the models. And hit rate wise it means that
normally hitting on 4+ you go from 75% hit rate with ASF to 67% hit rate with SR
normally hitting on 3+ you go from 89% hit rate with ASF to 83% hit rate with SR

Especially for our core dropping 8% in amount of hits is pretty big. But even for our elites fighting other elites it makes a big difference.

Something only playtesting will reveal probably. But a worry at least. Especially because it wasn't really something that desperately needed a change in my view...

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:42 am 
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The Ravening Hordes is to be released tomorrow with points and special rules adjusted to match the rulebook. From next week work will begin on producing actual army books for each of the current races and then be continued by producing Dogs of War, Sigmarines and any other new army GW or some other company produces.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ninth Age
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:29 am 
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The Armies compendium has been updated as well as the rulebook and the magic paths document.

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