The Ninth Age

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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The Ninth Age

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

The rules for the fan based Warhammer Fantasy Battle:

The Ninth Age
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Re: The Ninth Age

#2 Post by Giladis »

I am shipping you to WHFB sub forum.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#3 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

No problem, I was not sure if 9th age still belongs to main subforum.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#4 Post by Eirik »

I think this new edition is looking better with each update.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#5 Post by Prince of Spires »

I'm a bit doubtful about the undertaking. I came across the discussion about the HE rules for the 9th age on the Warhammer forum and the level of the discussion was pretty low. A lot of the arguments were more or less
- Everyone knows HE are an overpowered army, let's comp whatever they have. ASF is OP, we should either remove it or simply remove the reroll (so HE players can't complain about the lack of ASF...). Afterall, without ASF you would strike first against lower I troops anyway, no need to compensate for that
- WL are the most OP unit in the game. All HE armies take them, which is reason enough in itself to comp them into oblivion. And they are a S6 unit. We can't have HE running around with S6. And they would win some fights against other elite infantry. Oh, and ignore the fact that regular core infantry will stomp them into the ground. After all, if your WL fight core infantry you're just a bad player. Of course, their worst offence is that they have forest strider! And pay no points for it compared to other elite infantry who don't have it.
- While were at it, let's turn the frosthearts into blue flamespires and a 0-1 choice. It's one tough, tanky unit. And we can't have a HE unit have a tanky unit. That's not their style.
- And have you seen those characters. They have ASF and high WS!

HE can use some fixes. Sure. But taking away ASF and 'fixing' WL by removing lion cloaks and s4 and removing the frostheart as a playable option is not the way. Most people posting there don't seem to get that a reason some of these units are always taken is that the rest is not competitive enough. The reason you see few SW or spearmen or chariots is not that WL are so great. It's that they are not good enough for competative players.

In general, to me it looks like a lot of the posters finally see a chance to get rid of whatever unit they don't like or rule they don't like. Without any actual regard as for the cconsequences or the overall rules and big picture. I think a lot of them are underestimating what would actually be required to make a decent ruleset or armylist. If this input is representative of the final outcome then I have strong doubts about the level of it. And I'd rather just stick to out of the book 8th.

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Re: The Ninth Age

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I'd rather just stick to out of the book 8th.
+1

Also has the advantages that everyone knows where they stand, easier to get new players in etc..

Still, good luck to the 9th Age guys, hopefully they can build a player-base and make a go of it.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

Yeah, definitely. Don't get me wrong. I support the idea of people carrying on WH by adapting the rules and bringing it forward. And I hope we get some great rulesets out of it.

But most of the fixes I was reading were just missing the point and not actually fixing anything that needed fixing. Writing a good and balanced game is hard work. And a lot harder then people give (gave) GW credit for. I think the recent HE results in the ETC and all the discussions that were had about the different comps they came up with is already proof of that. There are no easy fixes.

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Re: The Ninth Age

#8 Post by Galharen »

that is why I prefer Furion's 9th ed.
He makes less changes, just some updates which allow us to use rarely or even never seen units.
He is not changing the game system itself, as the Swedish 9th ed. does.
IMO it's also worth taking into consideration.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Wish listing is understandable. People have new hope that their ideas will be heard by other gamers as they know GW not only didn't listen to them in the past but they will never update their game anymore. The good thing is that there is a group of experienced players who can work as a team. At least all the suggestions, no matter how crazy, are going to be read and discussed.

It is a huge project, far beyond the capabilities of a single person and it is a great opportunity for people to actually have some impact. All these years GW didn't listen to you at all. Now you have your chance to make a difference. Saying "I will keep fingers crossed and see what they come up with" is lazy (sorry! :)). If you are really interested you should be more active.

I am in fact surprised there is no initiative yet (better still, actively supported by admins and mods) to create a steady stream of feedback to the guys who are actually doing all the job now. Focus on High Elves (naturally), play the games with the new rules (the changes as I hear are not big in terms of army books) and send the feedback. Or discuss these changes here where hopefully it will not be another wish listing but good discussion about options and also keep sending some good feedback to people who do it.

They need it and that will help them a lot. And will be truly a project created by gamers for gamers.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#10 Post by Galharen »

well, whatever which ''9th ed'' we will be playing, Furion's one or from Sweden or anything else, the truth is it is only the matter of time when we will switch and stick to it.
I can adapt to every conditions, important is that the all other players do the same.

KoW is an alternative, however I don't want to give up warhammer world so fast, I just like it (it does not mean I like GW politic or AoS :lol: )
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Re: The Ninth Age

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I am in fact surprised there is no initiative yet (better still, actively supported by admins and mods) to create a steady stream of feedback to the guys who are actually doing all the job now.
Time and priority (at least on my part). No time to actively get involved in a single new rules for HE discussion, let alone in all of them.

Having said that, we can facilitate a way of structuring feedback if you want. Feel free to offer our help to the initiators of this project (or another for that matter). If they are interested we can easily put up a new forum for specific rules discussions and playtesting etc. My knowledge of the WH community pretty much ends at the borders of U.net. So I have no clue who to contact.

Another reason why there hasn't been an initiative from our side yet is probably that the amount of member we have who want to get involved in an effort such as this in limited. As can be seen by the frequent posts in this topic...

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Re: The Ninth Age

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

Galharen wrote: well, whatever which ''9th ed'' we will be playing, Furion's one or from Sweden or anything else, the truth is it is only the matter of time when we will switch and stick to it.
At the moment there are at least four games vying for the player base. 8th, AoS, KoW and fan 9th. The question is whether one if any will pull away and dominate. Obviously AoS will see a lot of play in general but for the internet and tournament communities things are very unclear right now.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#13 Post by Curu Olannon »

Ulthuan is currently in a pickle because this is a forum dedicated to a fictional entity which is no longer supported by a company. Members and activity seem to be dropping by the day, understandably, as fewer and fewer play WHFB.

Making a decision too soon means you might end up betting on the wrong horse. Making it too late means you might lose out on people. I'm pretty sure however that once the dust settles this will still be "the" High Elf forum based on our history. The question is, what kind of chaos will end up being the players' choice? Currently there are so many candidates:
- AoS Aelfs
- 9th age
- Furion 9th Ed
- Kings of War
- 8th Ed. Warhammer by GW

Personally I have no idea which of these systems will end up being the de facto standard game for fantasy wargaming in the future. Killing off Warhammer left a huge vacuum: As far as I know it was the biggest fantasy miniature war game in the world. Many of those people will want to keep playing. Where will they go? I think it's wise for Ulthuan to bide its time now, at least for a while. It's too chaotic for anyone to be able to predict the outcome. These various initiatives need time to gather their bases.

As for 9th age itself, which is what this topic was originally about, it's an interesting initiative. Has anything like this been done before on this scale? I mean they do seek to simply replace Warhammer as the world's biggest miniature war game and it's done on a voluntary basis with no economical incentives or even any companies to back them. Pretty crazy ^^

I haven't read the rules so I can't speak to how sound the system seems. I will say however that I think writing a balanced game is far easier than most people think it is. All you need to do is start somewhere and keep making changes based on results. No reason to write the stats in stone. Look at the big computer games, such as Dota2 which recently held the world's biggest esport tournament ever with a staggering ~18 million USD prize pool: The balance fixes and stat changes happen constantly and it helps create a more diverse and interesting game. Take current Warhammer for example. 6th spells are too good. Remove them, see what happens. Now something else pops up, nerf it. Keep doing this and the balance will improve over time. Again, using dota2 as an example, the amount of heroes and items used increase steadily over time as statistics are gathered and changes made. Swordmasters are inferior to White Lions now. Reduce their cost by 1 point, see what happens. Are they still not good enough? Keep doing it. Sooner or later they will be a viable choice. With books containing the rules this approach is hard because the game will become fragmented very easily, but I don't see any reason why stats can't be released for free on the web with updates say, every 6 months. Doubly so with this kind of initiative.

9th age might be great. It might be nothing. We don't know yet. I do applaud them for trying to fix the core problems of the game however. Although there are many things in Warhammer I like, some mechanisms are just plain stupid and makes it annoying to play. I wish the 9th people good luck in their endeavour, best case there will be an interesting game to return to in the future :)
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Re: The Ninth Age

#14 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

@ Rod

I suggested being more active because taking part in such initiatives is, in my opinion, one of the best ways to promote the website. Whether you find time for it or make it a priority it is your personal choice. It is your website after all.

9th Age for me is one of the things I am going to check and will probably post about my impressions. If it is going to be in a specially created sub-forum, on TWF or on my own blog is a secondary thing. I will do so about other gaming topics I am currently interested in too. But in all these cases I will do so as an individual because I am not an official Ulthuan.net emissary to path ways for possible collaborations between websites and internet communities.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#15 Post by sparkytrypod »

i think the 9th age/8.5/whatever will die in anything over the short term.

i think its very difficult for a game to survive as something other than as a niche game without support and updates, plus a lack of new blood can only lead to a downturn.

im banking on kings of war!
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Re: The Ninth Age

#16 Post by Makiwara »

I think 9th age could survive, it's not that different a scenario to Pathfinder after all, however I think it's going to have some real stumbling blocks to do so.

Models. How long are Glade Guard going to be available? Or HE Archers? Or any one of dozens of kits? What happens when you can no longer buy the models the rules are written around? The game will be dead in the water; if you had enough people behind you, you could keep in talk with someone like Mantic or another smaller company to keep certain kits available for cross gaming purposes, but otherwise it's going to be difficult to get your bread and butter minis in pretty short order.

New miniatures. You're going to have to write 9th Age rules for the new minis to keep peoples interests and to keep the armies from stagnating and then you'll be going through all the joys of rules development that GW made AoS to avoid.

Fluff. People love wargamming, but fluff is really important to a huge chunk of the player base this would be catering to. Do you just keep 9th Age as AoS fluff but ranked battles, or do you go in another direction? If so, you need people thinking and writing competently to do so.

Fun. You need to let people have a little of the new hotness in their games, a little bit of filth within reason; if things become to arithmetic people will lose interest.

It's going to be a tall order, I wish them nothing but the best because playing AoS makes me like straight Fantasy all the more but this is going to be a task and a half to do and not have it die in the crib.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Whether you find time for it or make it a priority it is your personal choice.
Not in my case SM. I had my hands full keeping things civil here for a while and doing background stuff. I've also had half an eye on the other elf forums, as well as TWF. I've made a substantial effort to read and respond to a lot of the gaming stuff that is getting posted. This is enjoyable but it takes time and with heavy RL commitments (as others have I'm sure), that is limited. I see the above as my modding 'patch' so to speak. The other mods have started discussions about a more proactive effort but as Curu emphasises, this is complicated by gaming uncertainty.
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sparkytrypod wrote:i think its very difficult for a game to survive as something other than as a niche game without support and updates, plus a lack of new blood can only lead to a downturn.
This is the GW model, which most assume is the only one. But historical wargames for example have had tournament circuits since the 1960's with little in the way of rules updates. Figures are made by independents and these days of course ebay provides virtually any GW model or rulebook you could wish for. New players get brought in by things like clubs, so any game a club chooses to play, whether currently supported by GW or not, will attract new players.

The bottom line is what players expect from a game, there is a split right down the middle of the UK tournament scene for example. For some players, new releases are vital because a lot of their enjoyment comes from discussing these on Twitter or social nights at tournaments, podcasting or listening to such, adjusting sharply honed lists to cope with new stuff. But the other group of players is more concerned about how enjoyable the game they are playing is per se. They don't need steady changes because they will explore units and armies that are not at the bleeding edge, or a different army now and then. They don't need the auxiliary parts of the game. The painting side will always be there anyway.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#18 Post by Elithmar »

A lot of people seem worried about the lack of new models but, unless they're all going to look awful like the Sigmarines, we can always just use the new models GW releases and create rules for these in 9th.
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Maybe we should have one though. Someone who is (or could become) active on other forums and who is willing to give up a little extra time to coordinate between sites.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#19 Post by Shadeseraph »

I've been in love with the initiative since the early pre-alpha version they issued. I quite like how they are dealing with the game, and love what they've done (for the most part, there are a bunch of things I don't quite like) with the beastmen book. I'm actually trying to give my own input whenever I have time but most of my propositions tend to not be very welcome because I tend to prefer a larger drift towards units and soft RPS over monsters/characters and combos.

It would be great to get some input from people here, as I know how good you guys are at analyzing the game.

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Re: The Ninth Age

#20 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

There is a website dedicated to the initiative if you are interested:

9th Age - Website
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Re: The Ninth Age

#21 Post by Cold Phoenix »

I'm not enthused by what I'm seeing in the 9th Age High Elf thread. Half the people posting there seem determined to nerf the HE book. Most of the rest are offering badly thought-out suggestions.

Given that large parts of the warhammer community may move to using 9th age, do we think that it'd it be worth making up a list of HE suggestions (as Lustria Online has done for Lizardmen) and posting them in the 9th age HE thread?
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Re: The Ninth Age

#22 Post by Galdor »

That's a good idea Cold Phoenix. IMHO just a few tweaks are needed as I thought overall our 8th edition book was decent.

I think Botwd could be made a 3++ for the same points cost as it does seem too powerful. The Frosty could probably do with a points increase while the Flamespyre should get a slight points drop.

I would like to see Swordmasters get a buff of some kind. Perhaps some sort of parry/ward save in close combat?
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Re: The Ninth Age

#23 Post by John Rainbow »

Cold Phoenix wrote:I'm not enthused by what I'm seeing in the 9th Age High Elf thread. Half the people posting there seem determined to nerf the HE book. Most of the rest are offering badly thought-out suggestions.

Given that large parts of the warhammer community may move to using 9th age, do we think that it'd it be worth making up a list of HE suggestions (as Lustria Online has done for Lizardmen) and posting them in the 9th age HE thread?
Yes. Although I don't know if it will help.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#24 Post by SpellArcher »

I feel if someone wants to start one up, go for it.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#25 Post by Giladis »

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Re: The Ninth Age

#26 Post by Elithmar »

Maybe I'm missing something, but do we have to use the Wood Elf High Magic attribute under 9th Age rules? Because if so that's... well, rubbish! :evil:
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Re: The Ninth Age

#27 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

It looks like at the moment the High Magic lore attribute is exactly the same for HE, WE and LM. I am not sure why they decided to do so. I tried to check relevant topic at TWF but despite the fact some players asked about it there is no answer to that yet.

I think it is not necessary change and I believe it should be addressed so hopefully in further iterations of the rules army specific lore attributes will return.

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Re: The Ninth Age

#28 Post by Makiwara »

Elithmar wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but do we have to use the Wood Elf High Magic attribute under 9th Age rules? Because if so that's... well, rubbish! :evil:

There's a build WE players use around the attribute that works well with a Sister bus, Highweaver on Unicorn and two Great Stag riders but I believe 9th Age has changed it so the wound counters come off before ward saves which reduces it's effectiveness greatly. Seems a shame, didn't think the attribute was broken in anyway to begin with.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#29 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Yeah that would kill High Magic for me. It was a nice lore as it was, definitely not broken but very effective with the right list and strategy. Personally I think that, if anything, it should be a little stronger. Fluff wise it is supposed to be the purest, most powerful magic in the Warhammer world.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#30 Post by Gondarion »

I've taken it on myself to defend the Asur in the 9th Age forum against some of the nonsense in the High Elf thread and elsewhere. I think 9th Age is relevant because of the slavish devotion many have to comp systems; if people can all agree to play under a comp system, an updated ruleset designed by those very people might be the only thing that can keep the Warhammer community together. So far, I agree it is a problematic ruleset that creates as many problems as it solves. The changes to magic are myriad and way too complicated (which if you know me at all is something I never complain about, I like complicated rules). The change to High Magic is entirely wrongheaded, but fortunately this is still the Alpha draft, many things will change going forward. I've been in personal contact with one of the 9th Age folks and he says each army book will get its own treatment in time. My major concern is that the Swedish and ETC teams have such an anti-magic bias that they won't be able to resist nerfing the phase to near irrelevance. However, this group is hard-working, reads everything and takes all critiques seriously, and the ruleset will be an evolving one, not fixed for 7 years like GW was wont to do. There are some very good things already in the ruleset, such as the change to LOS; terrain rules; and an actual attempt to make spears good. But they're in the very early stages. I would encourage more Ulthuan members to become involved so the anti-High Elf silliness doesn't make more noise than people who actually know the army.
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