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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:14 pm 
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Based on your list above, for 2000pts, I really think you should make the Archer Regiment a Horde.

Here's a key point to consider when thinking about hordes of Shooters - the unit leader (center of the front rank) is all that matters (for shooting):

This means that while your unit does physically take up the space of a horde, the space it needs to be an effective shooter is much, much less.
Other benefits:
It'll provide more benefit from a single casting of Bane Chant (and as you've seen, Hero slots are precious).
It'll allow you to take the Bolt Thrower and the Army Standard (assuming you have points - I didn't check this time for ya).
It'll survive counter-fire longer, making it a bigger thorn in your opponents side.
The list goes on (really, I could expand but)...

In the end, that has to be a decision you want to make. You've always been one who adamantly wants to work outside the box, with MSU being your signature approach. I applaud that. Please just understand that the KoW rules guys specifically tried to make the MSU approach very hard to achieve (seriously, they're quoted as saying that MSU was too good in version 1, and its a big part of why their points scale the way they do, and the fact that it's so hard to unlock units of 1 model).

So my suggestion tries to keep the theme of your build style (MSU), while providing you with the benefits unlocked by a horde, and not requiring it to interfere with your battle line (no more than the regiment would, imo).

Best thing to do is find a game, and go from there. Good luck to ya!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:35 pm 
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Hi GhostWarrior,

Many thanks for your feedback! I believe our discussion here (with all the people contributing their comments, cheers guys!) makes this topic very interesting read and I hope it will be very helpful for anyone.

I really appreciate your insights and I would like to highlight that at this stage in particular, I am as inexperienced as any new player so I seriously consider any single piece of advice. I definitely see a lot of advantages to having a horde unit in the army.

Of course, after many games with MSU it is natural for me to try and come up with a version of swarming in KoW settings. But I try to stay open minded and I also acknowledge the fact that due to unique mechanics I may need to develop another approach to the game. I still don't know what that might be. Who knows, maybe it will indeed be the one that uses the hordes as a core of an army and the opportunities they give to the player.

Interestingly, I also take into an account the models I have at the moment :) And I have just found out I would need to mix units to actually build a horde! :)

Ultimately, I want to approach the system with the principle that everything can work and there is not necessarily suggested or preferred direction. I do understand designers wanted to see hordes on the battle field and tweaked the rules to encourage that. Although I didn't know they have a grudge against MSU approach :)

By all means don't get discouraged by my stubbornness! As long as we have a civil discussion I love the situations where the ideas are challenged and other options are presented. Obviously, I will need to test it on the battle field eventually but I tell you that all these "arguments" help me to develop ideas I want to check in the games.

In the meantime, I was curious about the opinion what kind of warfare Elves can conduct under KoW rules? Their good shooting (according to some) means they can soften up the enemy before combats. Elite is definitely a rule that promotes hand to hand. They are also faster than many armies.

To me, personally, that suggest you can build a combined arms force, that will compensate for fewer units with good shooting and speed to create and exploit holes in enemy formation.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:35 pm 
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GhostWarrior wrote:
Based on your list above, for 2000pts, I really think you should make the Archer Regiment a Horde.

Other benefits:
...
The list goes on (really, I could expand but)...


And it takes just a single melee wound to disrupt it and stop it from shooting. Archer hordes are very vulnerable to light cavalry and flyers. They might last longer but 250 points of melee 5+ isn't very effective.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:19 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Interestingly, I also take into an account the models I have at the moment :) And I have just found out I would need to mix units to actually build a horde! :)

Too right! It finally looks like I might get to use that block of 50 spears that I painted when I first started playing. They've not seen use in a long time!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:44 am 
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Maccwar wrote:
And it takes just a single melee wound to disrupt it and stop it from shooting. Archer hordes are very vulnerable to light cavalry and flyers. They might last longer but 250 points of melee 5+ isn't very effective.


I was a little harsh last night.

Archer hordes can work but you will need to devote significant resources to protect your investment. In v2 it is easier to do this as there will be fewer troops and single models running around. The changes to the 1 inch and charging rules also help.

If I had the points and didn't *need* a horde to unlock something else then my preference would be for two archer regiments instead... But then again I have much to learn about how v2 will ultimately change the balance of the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:11 am 
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I use two hordes in my undead army:
1 Zombie legion (nerve value is -/28) and 1 Skeleton spearmen (nerve value:-/23 and phalanx) . I will add phalanx giving artifect to the zombie legion from now on as phalanx rule keeps the cavalary in check as it negates their very precious thunderous charge ability.
I use these units as anchors holding the flank of my deployment which is at the middle of the table as i used refused flank strategy to overcome the shambling rule of undead units. This was recommended by Furion for the vampire counts army and it really works. I do bring revenant cavalary and soul reaver cavalary in my strong flank while i bring werevolves to position for counter charges in my weak flank. I use surge and heal sources as well as inspiring heroes to keep the army intact.

In an elven list the zombies' and skeletons' role can be covered by spearmen or seaguard hordes. Also forst shamblers horde can be very useful as they have vanguard, pathfinder and cs(1), they have a defence value of 5+ which is very good. Vanguard them to a central woods and let them defend that terrain. They do not need pahalanx for the majority of the cavalary as difficult terrain prevents thunderous charge and gives -1 penalty to the to hit rolls of attackers. Also being horde they unlock 1 hero, 1 monster and 1 warmachine. The only downside against spearmen or seaguard hordes are small frontal face of the unit.
The other components of a msu army shall be at least 3or 4 regiments, the rest are troops and warmachines.
Btw, elven artillery is clearly superior to the other amries' artilerries as they are elite,+4 to hit and 2 attacks with blast d3.

Cheers


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:36 am 
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The undead horde and legion options are great - they can take huge amounts of punishment before routing.

Sea guard is great in v2. Backed by a wizard with bane chant you have a very flexible unit although that is 370 points of your army!

Although it might be tempting to try and build an army around really big units you have to remember that (in tournaments especially) a lot of the scenarios you will be playing require you to take and hold objectives. Undead can get away with fielding some of their really big units as they are still pretty cheap (that zombie legion is still only 190 points) but elves tend to be more expensive. That said, shifting a sea guard horde from an objective can take some doing (de 4+, ne 21/23 and phalanx) and if positioned perfectly it might be able to hold more than one objective.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:39 pm 
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Maccwar wrote:
Maccwar wrote:
And it takes just a single melee wound to disrupt it and stop it from shooting. Archer hordes are very vulnerable to light cavalry and flyers. They might last longer but 250 points of melee 5+ isn't very effective.


I was a little harsh last night.

Archer hordes can work but you will need to devote significant resources to protect your investment. In v2 it is easier to do this as there will be fewer troops and single models running around. The changes to the 1 inch and charging rules also help.

If I had the points and didn't *need* a horde to unlock something else then my preference would be for two archer regiments instead... But then again I have much to learn about how v2 will ultimately change the balance of the game.


No worries, it was a totally fair point. Man, I am excited to play more people and see more of these in-game balancing maneuvers! List building in this game ends up being more of a challenge than it initially seems!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:02 pm 
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Ha, tell me about it! Funny thing, I discovered that the min challenge is less about what I can get in for given points but more about the fact that all seems to be good :)

Many thanks for the ongoing discussion guys, it is great to see ideas floating!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:40 pm 
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Greetings guys and gals.

It feels like a century since the last time I posted on the forum, but as I recently began to have an urge for fantasy battles again (40k had the better part of my attention in the past two years) and I tried and plan to play both Kings of War and Age of Sigmar it feels like a new beginning, so I though I become a bit more active again...

Today I had my first battle (1500pts) of Kings of War with a friend I thought I post a few initial thoughts. Our Lists were:

My friend's Kingdoms of men

Empire General (General on Horse)
Battle Wizard (Wizard with Fireball and Healing)
Battle Wizard (Wizard with Fireball and Healing)
Empire Spearmen (Spear Phalanx Regiment)
Empire Halberdiers (Pole-Arms Block Horde)
Empire Swordsmen (Foot Guard Horde)
Empire Archers (Bowmen Troops)
Empire Handgunners (Arquebusiers Troops)
Empire Knights (Knights Regiment)
Empire Knights (Knights Regiment)
Empire Mortar (Siege Artillery)
Great Cannon (Cannon)


My High Elf List was

High Elf Prince on Star Dragon (Dragon Kindred Lord with Chant of Hate)
Dragon Princes of Caledor (Stormwind Cavalry Regiment with Wine Of Elvenkind)
Silver Helms (Stormwind Cavalry Regiment)
Silver Helms (Stormwind Cavalry Regiment)
Sword Masters of Hoeth (Palace Guard Regiment with Brew of Strength)
White Lions (Palace Guard Regiment)
White Lions (Palace Guard Regiment)


1. Deployment
It is classic wfb where the player with the greater number of units rules the day. Matching the proper units opposite of the proper enemy units is the game here and I must say it is seems a bit more unforgiving in the sense that it is even more difficult than wfb to fix bad deployment, but also more forgiving due to the fact that there are not so much unbeatable units in the game.

2. Movement
This is the meat and potatoes of the game me thinks together with deploymet as it is in this phase that mistakes will cost you dearly and very likely the game. The fact that the charge range is standard old school wfb but also pre measured makes up for a quite different gameplay as we have used to. Also flank charging and rear charging while very potent need to be performed with a capable unit in order to matter. For example my Silver Helm unit got flank charged by a troop unit of Archers and their x2 attacks made little difference with 5+ to hit and 5+ to wound Contributing to the fight and adding his horde very little).

3. Shooting
It is not very powerful as it was in wfb but with a little luck and with the enemy without the aid of inspiring presence it can make really a difference or just wittle down a unit to surely routed in cc phase.

4. Close Combat
The fact that the defender cannot fight back is a bit disturbing for me and make you be very careful not to become exposed to charges as it is quite possible that a single charge will be enough to rout even a full health/nerve unit.


Regarding now the battle my plan was to have a strong center with my sword master unit flanked by the two White Lion units and then by the Silver helm units as we went outwards. My Dragon Princes and my Dragon lord took an extreme flank route and took advantage of the nimble rule (one of the most powerful special abilities in teh game me thinks) to sweep the enemy army from left to right. In the end a charge that failed to rout one of my infantry units, the lack of effective warmachine shooting coupled with good strategy on my part and above average dice had the result of my opponent conceding on turn 3 (I still count them warhammer style) as I would table hime next turn whilst I had lost only two units mnyself...

I feel this game an amalgam of a streamlined warhammer 6th edition with elements from Field of Glory...

Sorry fort the wall of text and cheers to all.
Sieg. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:59 pm 
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Sounds good, I am looking forward to doing some test games myself, even if my Kingdoms of men (Empire/Brets/Misc) mercenary army is getting most of my attention at the moment. 60 Alcatani Fellowship pike-men and 80 Perry halberds, bows and crossbows does not paint themselves... ](*,)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:15 am 
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I had my first two games tonight of KoW. Really enjoyed them both. Played using ogres against the undead. It was a really simple system which allowed us to get two 1000 points games finished within two hours. I'm told 2000pt is the standard so these were smaller games.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:41 pm 
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I've gotten a few games on UB thus far as well. I'm completely hooked on the system. It plays so fast and smooth. Their undead are just fantastic.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:10 pm 
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Hi Truthiness,

I was lurking in the shadows as a guest today when you played on UB against Skebert and his O&G. I really liked the game as it showed two armies very nicely. I am still trying to approach it with an open mind and not to use too many parallels between KoW and WHFB.

I hope you can clarify one thing to me as it is just an impression as a spectator. Your game was another one at 2k that seemed to me (in general terms) to follow the scenario: deployment (very important), movement (sometimes shy for a turn or two) then clash of 2 lines. Then you have 1-2 turns where units push against each other as soon as there is a break in the line somewhere. As soon as there is one, it creates a significant advantage to the side that breaks through. Might be even good enough to win the game but will definitely create opportunities for flank charges.

From the spectator point of view it looks a little static though. I admit I almost never observe the game from start till the end with full attention (hence guest mode) so that I can paint or do other things in the background. Hence, I assume I missed some crucial details. I really hope it does not have to be the case and it feels different when you play but I would be very grateful if you commented on the importance of the deployment and movement as well as subsequent "combat reforms" based on the games you played.

Thanks a lot in advance!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:14 am 
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I've had a few of those games. The game is heavily dependent on deployment and the initial charges. Jockeying for position is critical and the gameplay you're seeing reflects that. Screening your units and staggering reserves are also legitimate and effective strategies. That might sound boring, but when you think about it, Warhammer can be described much the same way. Deploy, move toward each other for a couple turns, the lines clash and you look for openings. I think the big difference is that you don't have a huge dynamic and powerful magic phase. I prefer things that way because I hate one spell determining the entire game, but that's personal preference.

Today's game, however, I wouldn't say went like that. I faked the Orc player out with the Dragon on the left flank big time. I jumped behind his line and appeared to set up for a charge on his backfield units. Instead, I double backed into the Troll horde and then just terrorized his line. That Dragon alone accounted for 2 Troll Hordes and a Great Axe regiment.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:34 am 
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Am I correct in thinking you guys are stuck with the one scenario for now until the full rules are released? The full release has 6 scenarios which place different burdens on the players in terms of where they will need to try and move their forces around, which I believe will create some variety on this score.

That being said, I've always found in wargames (and I don't just mean big-block fantasy/historical ones, things like 40k too) that victory usually goes to the player who can time their moves correct and gain significant material advantage first.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:23 am 
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I've played a couple of scenarios and now I'll never go back. They're excellent. Unlike the old WHFB scenarios they are not broken and further promotes balanced armies. 2500 with a scenario is my preferred format.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:12 pm 
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As I've been learning, yes I've mainly just been playing line up and fight. I really want to start doing scenarios though.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:51 pm 
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@ Truthiness

Thanks! Yes, I saw that feint with the Dragon, was very good move indeed and having 30 attacks from single model is huge. You definitely used the ability of it to fly! But that is also why I am asking because if your units don't, and majority are still ground forces, how do you really use deployment and movement to your advantage?

First of all the armies are by default more numerous in terms of how many elements there are. If I am not mistaken you deploy each character and war machine as a single drop too. So out deploying the opponent is not that easy at all.

Second, moving units is quite interesting too. You have to make good decisions here as you need to choose between moving fast but in a straight line or slow but with the ability to change facing. I believe it will come more with practice but I can see how that results in armies being moved in a shy way. If you move badly and expose the flank of a regiment the enemy will immediately jump on the weak spot.

I am also sure part of the reason the games I observed (but not all of them) may look static is because people are simply learning. Hence, they have some ideas they want to test and may move in a safe way to implement them.

I try not to compare KoW to WHFB despite coming from fantasy background. I believe this limits the view on the possibilities new system gives. However, taking my own games as example, I never feel I am that static even if I assume defensive stance sometimes.

In the end this is simply to understand the new game. I will try it myself (soon I hope) and I am sure I will gain better understanding from it. Anyway, thanks for sharing some of your experience, it is always very valuable!

@ Baragash

It is so true about the scenarios! If only more people wanted to play them. I am sure that the scenarios will affect the games and if they are as balanced as the system seems to be then it is great!

@ LA

I admit I would love to play 2500 but I wonder if it is not too crowded, especially with the armies that have generally cheaper troops?

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:45 pm 
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@swordmaster any games played?

mad to see a report...... :D :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:59 am 
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Hi sparky,

Not yet! But I am working on it, so please, be patient. :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:11 pm 
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Got the full PDF now, and it all looks good. The lists seems balanced, and the rules are smooth and easy to learn, with an emphasis on maneuvers. Now I just need to get a few battles under my belt.

All in all, I can't for the life of my see why people who enjoyed WFB would choose AoS or even warmahordes as a replacement over this game.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:43 am 
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Hi Everyone,
I haven't posted here since the start of 8th edition. I am excited at KoW and have unpacked my High Elves. The rules seem so clean and concise, also seems very balanced, with less hero hammer and uber units. More about positional play and outmanoeuvring your opponents forces.

I really look forward to the growing world wide interest with this game and am excited to play some Fantasy games again!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:23 am 
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Played my first two games of KoW last night. I really enjoyed it, I loved the fast pace and tactical depth. In the first game I crushed a Kingdom of Men army that didn't really have enough punch to hurt my dragon or Stormwind Cavalry. It was all over in half an hour.

The second game was an absolute epic vs Undead. I made a huge mistake in turn one, I moved up my Stormwind regiment (with +1 to hit magic item) into what I thought was a great position outside his charge range. He then used Surge to slam a hammer unit of Direwolves right into them and managed to rout them straight away. I managed to claw things back to almost equal points by the final turn. I would have won if I rolled 7 or higher on 2D6 to rout his Wraiths in my last turn, then he won as he counter charged and managed to rout my archer horde (he needed a 9 on 2D6) on the very last roll of the game.

Overall I was really impressed. I'll still play WHFB when I can but I have a feeling Kings will be my main game of choice in the future.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:59 am 
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I still haven't managed to have a second game of KoW, hoping that will change over the coming weeks. Great to know though that it is gaining momentum.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:18 am 
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Got my first game in as well, this weekend. It was a 1000p game where I played KoM against my brother's orcs. Tough match, but my knights and guard horde with great swords won the day. The only unit I lost was said guard horde, that got mauled by the orc warlord as he fought his way clear.

A great battle which fits right into the narrative of the last warhammer campaign we played. I lost every battle of that campaign except the last one which ended in a draw, the draw left my city intact but also saw the orcs going wild across the countryside. With this victory Baron Francis finally managed to throw back the orcs which have been besieging his city for the last few months.

No doubt the cunning orc warlord is already gathering fresh troops and plotting his revenge.


Last edited by Francis on Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:59 pm 
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Not sure if it has been mentioned yet but the majority of the NE region in the US voted to switch to KoW. I think the masters has also followed suit.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:05 am 
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I've seen the news around. It's a very exciting time.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:43 pm 
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So which was the one region that voted against KoW for the Masters?

Even that 'no' vote was a close call apparently.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Do we have any useful resources lists for KoW? i.e. tactics articles, guides, etc?


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