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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:47 pm 
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@ KillerK

But how does it connect to KoW? You are suggesting just different idea for Warhammer, KoW is different game.

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:43 am 
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I've played 3 games so far, and it's not bad. In some ways it suffers compared to WHFB (no flee, no panic reactions, you don't do anything in your opponent's turn), but in others it excels. The internal and external balance is miles ahead of Warhammer, rank and file have a place in the game, there's no super-duper heroes, magic is toned down. I like it. Not as much as 2010 8th edition where infantry blocks were useful, but at least as much as 2015 8th edition which seems to be about heroes, monsters and fast cav.

I've had one game with Elves. 80 spears, 40 archers, 20 palace guard and 20 cavalry, in a 2,000 point game. It's a lot more cinematic, and my spearelves were useful!

I'd say give it a go.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:24 am 
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Well but it is an alternative, just like KoW, IMHO a better one.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:34 am 
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Well, that depends on what you look for in the game. Better/worse are subjective terms and should be used in the context.

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:51 pm 
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Hey folks!

To keep everyone on this site on the same page regarding all the latest rule/list info, here are some links:

Full Rules: https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=21AFEBFC9F9B9322!13419&ithint=file%2cpdf&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AA65yYAaNDyt4KE

Completed Army lists: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/edit#gid=95797511

Army lists in process for 1st expansion: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XgQY5vVHs_V19N_2lsrpk59SIF9hi6_KDBqkmyitRro/edit#gid=644257362

The rule book, which will have all of the information listed in the first 2 links above, is slated to be released on August 22nd. Not sure when the expansion lists will be released (as they are still wip). The rulebook will NOT have the Twilight Kin as part of it (Dark Elves), since the team is still working to make them a truly different flavor of elf.

Kickstarter backers for this project just (~4 days ago) received pdf copies of the rules listed in the first 2 links, and say they match 99% (elves appear to match the google doc 100%).

I hope this helps alleviate any stress regarding perceived 'blandness' of lists.

Swordmaster - feel free to steal this for your resources thread. ;)

I for one am super excited about where this game can take the elf community (and the greater tournament community as a whole!).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:24 pm 
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Hi GhostWarrior!

Many thanks! I am updating the resources topic with your links!

Btw, have you played the game yet? If yes, would you share your impressions and maybe answer some questions?

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:27 pm 
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I've played the game a grand total of 4 times thus far. 3 times as Elves, and once as Ogres (vs. Dwarfs, Dwarfs, Basileans, and Undead, respectively). Ranging from 750pts to 2000pts.

I'm not sure what the community here would like for me to share that can't be found on the Mantic forums from other posters... but for me:

The game truly involves 2 armies playing against one another. What I mean by this is, in games of 1500 pts and up, your strategies are much less likely to revolve around the actions and survival of one powerful unit or character. By limiting magical item combos (max 1 per unit or character), it becomes difficult in this game to create any unit that is truly unkillable. There are still powerful units that use up a good chunk of your points, but I don't think there's a unit/magic item combo that tops the 350-60pt mark (we're talking Dragon with a big magic item that point).

Flanking in this game comes into it's own. When you flank a unit in KoW, you double the attacks you roll for that unit. This has huge implications in this game! Since killing/breaking units is a factor of how many wounds you've caused total + a 2D6 roll vs. the Nerve of the unit that has been damaged, you increase your chances greatly of causing destruction when getting a flank (or rear - triple attacks!). Now protecting those flanks is more than just an exercise in good sense, it's potentially game-changing!

I don't know, what else are you interested in reading about?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:42 pm 
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Hi GhostWarrior,

The games I read about or watched didn't involve that much maneuvering. It looked like they just slammed certain units against each other and tried to see who can push each other. From that point of view the games looked static.

However, reading the rules I see that the deployment and movement phase are very important. For example, you can move a unit and charge with another one. That creates different set of opportunities. You can swap the regiments as they can move through each other etc. But I haven't seen good examples of some sophisticated maneuvers yet that would make it look like the game of higher tactical level.

It is not to blame the system or the players. I think it could stem from the fact that the players were obviously not that experienced and that the armies were small, 1.5k at best.

Another thing I am trying to wrap my head around is the army composition. I naturally tried to transfer my MSU force into it and noticed it is not that straightforward. I need a regiment for each 2 troops. Since regiment is not just 2 x troop in terms of cost and capabilities it is not easy to outdeploy your opponent as I will need to have similar amount of units in total (was comparing what I can get at 2k with what I saw in the forums).

So, in short, I want to play with small units as usual and utilize movement phase as usual but I find it might not be that easy to have significant number of deployment drops. Any advice? :)

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:59 pm 
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I agree that there seems to be less flank-turning maneuvers than I'd like to see through the battle reports. Though I did see one here that had a bit more to it:

http://eric54114.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/kow-game-2-undead-vs-ogres-unleashing.html

I think the idea is to cause mis-matches where you break through quickly with your own units, whilst trading relatively small/cheap units against their big ones.

I will say that I think your list will not translate directly into this game. What I think your approach could be, would be to buy a couple of hordes (say between spear/archer/seaguard I think you can achieve it). This will give you access to 4 troops units EACH, and a character and a war machine EACH (and a monster, but we've only got the Tree Herder as a monster). I think when you take this approach, it will feel much more like your old MSU list. The boon is in the further reduced cost of a horde over 4x troops, and the fact that you'll get the Hero AND the War machine.

If you want those Hordes to have a smaller footprint from a width perspective (and still be about the same cost in points), check out the Drakon Rider and War Chariot Hordes. Both of these can still be used to unlock all of selections mentioned above.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:49 pm 
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I took your last army that I saw from your MSU thread, and tried to develop something as an example for ya - see what you think:

quick link for others to that list: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=69003

This crack at it got to 2010 points, and used everything from your list, minus the Eagles:

Horde of Bowmen (40) - 250
Troop of Stormwind Cavalry (5) - 140 (Dragon Princes)
Troop of Stormwind Cavalry (5) - 140 (Dragon Princes)
Troop of Silverbreeze Cavalry (5) - 145 (Reavers)
Troop of Silverbreeze Cavalry (5) - 145 (Reavers)
Bolt Thrower - 90
Mage, Lightning Bolt, Wind Blast, Bane Chant, Talisman of Inspiration - 185 (Hey look, it's Larry! :) )

Horde of Spearmen (40) - 230
Palace Guard Troop (10) - 105 (Swordmasters)
Palace Guard Troop (10) - 105 (Swordmasters)
Palace Guard Troop (10) - 105 (White Lions)
Bowmen Troop (10), Fire Oil - 120 (Sisters)
Bolt Thrower - 90
Lord on Drakon - 160 (This could be Bob)

It did require the addition of a Spear horde, but it allowed all the units in the list to be taken. I'd think you could make some magic item tweaks, and drop a unit somewhere to do so - but, whaddya think?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:29 am 
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Many thanks, GhostWarrior!

Your army looks very intriguing and you already gave me some ideas here :)

For example, I was considering the wizard with the talisman and bane chant only but maybe I should invest in some more spells :) Also, adding the Oil to bowmen to represent Sisters of Avelorn is a great idea!

I am still trying to decide where I stand in terms of Hordes. It is completely different approach here. Horde is not simply a regiment that is twice as big. It does not cost twice the points, it may have double number of the attacks but does not have to, it has better nerve but at the same time its frontage is huge. It means it will be more cumbersome in movement and it will allow the enemy to charge more units into it, possible overcoming better resilience.

But it unlocks heroes and machines, unlike the regiment that unlocks hero OR machine. I like that mechanics even if it makes decisions more difficult.

I also don't want to take units I cannot represent well with miniatures I have so no drake riders or chariots for me.

I am going to play with options and hopefully get the game some time soon but I also want to add I don't assume I will be able to transfer MSU to KoW without some adjustments. However, I would like to build an army that utilizes movement and positioning and deployment more than other factors. Which are the principles for MSU force I use here anyway.

I will try to post some ideas soon and we will see what you think about it! :)

Thanks again for your great feedback!

Cheers!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:56 am 
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But it unlocks heroes and machines, unlike the regiment that unlocks hero OR machine. I like that mechanics even if it makes decisions more difficult.


I like that mechanic BECAUSE it makes decisions more difficult.

I've actually really enjoyed this game so far. The ability to move units though screening troops has opened up some new ideas. My only complaint on it is that it has the same "I go, you go" turn mechanic that I've started to dislike in warhammer. That said, I think I'm going to like this better than I have any edition of warhammer since 3rd. And it's a lot easier to get people to play this because it's not 25 years old and the rulebook is maybe 1/10 as much to read.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:08 pm 
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So Elves can ride Sabre-Toothed Pussycats? Lol


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:21 pm 
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They cannot, they have them as pets and one-use weapon :)

Although Basilieans have some Panther riders and I Dwarves have brock riders (essentially wild boar riders :))

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:43 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
They cannot, they have them as pets and one-use weapon :)

Although Basilieans have some Panther riders and I Dwarves have brock riders (essentially wild boar riders :))

Thanks for clearing that up!

Another Q: the rules and units are available online. What is in the books, etc you can buy? The same stuff + fluff or more rules as well?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:58 pm 
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Hi John,

In terms of rules you get everything with the free pdf with the exception of the full list of magic items. So you can enjoy the game straight away but not with all the shiny trinkets. They seem to be less crazy than in WHFB (oh boy, I can see how Mantic guys hate that constant comparisons :)) but they are neat additions and allow for some degree of customization.

You get the army lists but they are not complete. You get only basic regiments, so for example in the case of Elves no Sea Guard, no fast cavalry, no Drake Riders or Dragon Rider etc.

There are 2 books you can buy. One is hardcover with full background, rules, army list etc. And gamers edition which is soft cover and does not have background.

I read that next supplement Mantic is going to release is going to have the army lists not included yet in the main rulebook (such as Twilight Elves). Don't know when do they plan to do it though. However, since you have the open access to the beta tested army lists you can actively participate in the development.

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
In terms of rules you get everything with the free pdf with the exception of the full list of magic items. So you can enjoy the game straight away but not with all the shiny trinkets.


Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
You get the army lists but they are not complete. You get only basic regiments, so for example in the case of Elves no Sea Guard, no fast cavalry, no Drake Riders or Dragon Rider etc.

I've heard eventually the official full magic item list and full army lists will be available for free but they desired a period where the new release of books would have something more than the free versions. Gotta pay the bills somehow!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:42 pm 
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We have access to all the magic items now if you look at the latest beta list as that is 99% the same as the official rules. The armylist spreadsheet also contains the full army lists, which is also available from the beta section of the mantic forum

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:46 pm 
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As far as i see the movement, manuvering and msu concept is all viable in KOW, but truly there are not very much batreps ou there to teach the game to the new players. The regiment and troops have same kind of attack numbers and this will grant a huge advantage to msu style armies while making them more prone to break when they are wounded. I think that Swordmaster will teach the KOW community how to play with MSU techniques soon:)

Btw, I am very glad that a forum corner is reserved for KOW players. Looking forward to read Swordmaster, Lorien, SpellArcher and other veteran players' batreps of KOW. I hope that asrai.org and vampirecounts.net will follow your lead and place KOW in their forums as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:31 pm 
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It's not just a corner for KoW. ;) Any other tabletop game is welcome here as well. But I mirror your sentiment. In the end we all just love fantasy table top wargames. GW just happened to be the most readily available supplier. Which is why it dictates most of the forum. But, with AoS, other systems are becoming more popular. And KoW seems like the system getting the most attention at the moment.

And like you, I'm looking forward to seeing Swordmaster showing the KoW community what MSU can do in the hands of a skilled general. And the thoughts of all the other great players on here.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:24 pm 
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Thanks for clearing that up SM! I'll take a look.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:23 pm 
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Hi guys,

Thanks for kind words! I really hope I can transfer the concept somehow and also learn how to use it to a good effect under the new system. I am still unhappy with the lists I came up with though. :) Let me try to write down some observations I made by looking at the reports I have found so far, listening to some producers explanations what they wanted to achieve with the game and first impressions based on reading the rules.

1. Army composition

The system for army composition is based around regiments and hordes. If you take one and/or the other you unlock other options such as troops, war machines, monsters and heroes. If you take a regiment you can take up to 2 troops. In addition you can take 1 hero OR 1 machine OR 1 monster. If you take horde you can take up to four troops but 1 hero AND 1 machine AND 1 monster.

That becomes very interesting when you notice that 2 x troops is more expensive than 1 regiment and 2 x regiment is more expensive than 1 horde. Despite the visual effects the abilities do not scale linearly with size. Regiment of 20 infantry may not have twice as many attacks as troop of 10 infantry. And while it has better Nerve it does not have to be twice as much.

I know that designers wanted to make it so and that they want that hordes to be present. It does not mean that they are always better (for example, they are twice as wide as regiment in the case of infantry) but they are definitely good choice. In fact, the way the designers approach the game they want to make each option good to take.

This system has the following effect:

- armies look like armies - there are no deathstars (characters can't join units) and everything can take enough damage to route (i.e. be destroyed)
- armies may have similar number of elements - it is not easy to obtain a significantly greater number of units than your enemy

It is possible that I will find a way to work it out but at the moment, also considering the standard size to be 2000 points, I don't feel comfortable with the number of units I have. I would love to have more :D

One way to help out in that regard is taking a magic item that forces the enemy do deploy d3+1 units instead of just 1 during the deployment phase. However, they can take one too :)

2. Movement

Movement is advertised as a crucial phase of the game together with positioning. Movement leads to positioning of course but it is also derived from the initial deployment, deployment of the enemy and terrain.

On one hand all seems to be similar as you can move between 4 and 10 inches (might be more with the items) and double that for marching. However, you don't wheel. You can only pivot up to 90 degree. You cannot pivot if you move at a double. So that creates a different mechanics.

It seems to me that because of that initial position is more important as it is harder to correct that with movement. Technically you can cover more ground but only in a straight line. Which may expose the flanks or make it easier for the enemy to avoid your line of sight. Or you slow down and pivot.

There are units that are nimble meaning they add extra pivot to the move. It means when you move normally you have 2 pivots, when at a double you can pivot once. You can also get an item that grants you Nimble special rule.

You also don't flee or pursuit or overrun so that has some significant consequences. I will talk about it when I address combat phase.

In general, my impression is that combination of more elements and more strict movement means it is harder to outmaneuver the enemy. It is not easy to outflank them, stay out of their sight and at the same time be ready to charge next turn. Since the units have fixed frontage you can't sneak past them or in between them. If you add to that the fact that if you move through terrain you may lose some benefits for combat (like cavalry that usually has Thunderous Charge meaning they damage easier, when affected by terrain they lose it) it makes planning ahead much more important and adapting to changing situation much more difficult.

3. Combat

It is very unique way of resolving combat and I am still trying to develop kind of habit of recognizing what can be done here. It is easy to see that flank or even better, rear charge is a great thing to do. You either double or triple the amount of the attacks. Great! But how to make it happen? Especially with the way movement works?

Another thing is that when you attack there 3 possible outcomes: they hold and you bounce back, they waver and may lose some abilities temporarily or they are destroyed. In each case your unit kind of loses momentum. And the way I saw it, it is either one on one combat where your enemy will charge back to do some damage to you and then you attack again etc. until one unit or another is destroyed. Or you get counter charged by other elements of the enemy too.

It basically means that once you are committed to combat it is very hard to move away to a good new position. And to avoid being attacked back. Again, it seems crucial to have the right units in the right spot.

4. Summary

I really like the huge emphasizes on units in that game. As well as the fact that no matter what every element will take damage. Some can take more than others but there are no invulnerable choices. There is less characters customization but it is not a disadvantage. They have their role to play but they are support. And I think it is another great thing about this system.

I would love to be able to use the things I learned in Warhammer to KoW but I put myself in a position of a new recruit simply because it is a different system and it works differently. I will do my best to build some interesting armies that will take from the MSU principles and as such I doubt I will go for hordes (despite the encouragements from the designers :)).

Hopefully I will be able to provide some reports sooner than later :) And who knows, maybe I will start a parallel blog about KoW!

Looking forward to reading about your observations, impressions and experiences.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:19 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
(characters can't join units)

This is interesting because I remember an old Alessio Cavatore piece about Warhammer tactics where he stressed the necessity of keeping your characters in your units. Perhaps he wanted a system that played rather differently.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:19 am 
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I was playing with some army list building and came up with something like that:

Stormwind Regiment - 2 x Silverbreeze Troops, Drake Lord (Griffon)

Palace Guard Regiment - PG Troop, Stormwind Troop, Wizard

Sea Guard Regiment - PG Troop, Archers Troop (Sisters), Wizard

Archers Regiment - Bolt Thrower

It is aimed to reach 2000 points and I have some room for either another troop(s) or upgrades. There are some very tempting like Elven Wine for Heavy Cavalry to make them Nimble (additional pivot), improving defense of the Griffon Rider to 6+ or maybe gt him additional crushing strength 2 against monsters etc., inspiring talisman for one wizard and so on. There are other great items there, e.g. one use when you can cast 2 spells per turn or one which forces the enemy to deploy d3+1 units instead of 1.

At the same time I am concerned with spending too much for shiny trinkets instead of getting more units.

Another question is if it is better to have one wizard with many spells or more wizards with the same amount of spells. Single wizard still opens the slots for other characters or machines or monsters while 2 wizards means 2 spells per phase and redundancy when I one of them fails to cast.

After watching a few games at UB I came to the conclusion that I will not be able to have an advantage in total number of units as in the case of MSU in WHFB. Due to the way armies are organized in KoW I will always face significant number of these in the enemy force. Hence, my MSU approach will have to be based on a principle of bringing 2 regiments instead of 1 horde.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:51 am 
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I think ogres have the best shot at running MSU in KOW. There minimum unit size is a regiment, which consists of 3 models, allows for no concessions needing o be made whilst list building. Good movement and high damage output sweeten the deal also.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:34 pm 
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Hi Swordmaster,

I only played a few games with KOW and only one of them as elves. What i saw in my limited experience is that horde units' very large frontage makes their positioning rather static so they are largeley used as defensive anvils. The regiments and troops have the same facing so in your MSU approach regiments can be considered as small units in KOW game (as you mentioned)
I 'd advice to take fast small units to redirect, flank attack or shootting disrupters. Also flying units with nimble ( as all flying units have nimble) can be considered to move at the back of your opponents units. Elf army have drakon riders as large fyling cavalary unit.

In case of wizards elven army does not need much (such as undead army for multiple healing and surge spells), but banechant and lightning bolt spells are too god to pass. Make sure that your wizard takes the inspiring talisman as you will need inspiirng heroes everywhere to support your regiments which will have smaller nerve value than hordes.

I'd say do bother to give each regiment magic item, but nimble and/or parhfinder on heavy cavalry is too good to pass.

All in all, i found KOW very enjoyable to play, it is not filled with special rules and unkillable combos, the armies are well balanced and the rules are simple but elegant.

Hoping to see your batreps as soon as possible


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Hi razorfate,

Many thanks for your feedback! At this stage any game you played puts you miles ahead of me in terms of experience so I am very grateful for your comments!

I will try to work out the details of the list I posted above and add it here for discussion. What I heard, however, and what is a good sign, that in KoW army list building is less crucial in determining your chances of success. I am very curious about it as if that is true it means that the lists are actually well balanced internally and externally and the player can simply focus on mastering his chosen army.

I promise there will be some reports :)

Thanks again!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:05 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Another question is if it is better to have one wizard with many spells or more wizards with the same amount of spells. Single wizard still opens the slots for other characters or machines or monsters while 2 wizards means 2 spells per phase and redundancy when I one of them fails to cast.


During play testing of the new version I had some success with a list with two wizards in it. Wizards lack inspiring so there is always going to be a tension between getting spells and getting inspiring as your total number of characters will be limited. If you are running multiple wizards give one the talisman of inspiration to get more inspiring.

I found that using the wizards with bane chant in conjunction with sea guard regiments was very flexible - the sea guard could then either shoot with piercing or fight with crushing strength as the situation dictated. Of course if nobody needs bane chant that turn you can use them to heal instead.

Overall magic is generally less important than in WHFB but it can still make a big difference to the outcome of the game.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:07 pm 
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Hi guys,

I have few more specific questions then:

1. I intend to take Griffon Rider and Wizard with Bane Chant and Talisman to make him inspire nearby troops. I can add a BSB but would need to replace second wizard or bolt thrower, which would you recommend?

2. If I were to take a single wizard, I presume you would advice Lighting as a third spell? If there are two, I was simply thinking of double Bane Chant but I guess you would prefer one Bane Chant and one Lighting?

I understand that wizards play smaller role in KoW but I like these buffs they can add here and there and they can actually be included in the planning process. So they might not cast many spells but bane chant on the right unit can be quite significant etc.

Cheers!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:26 pm 
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At 2000 points I would generally try to take 3-4 sources of inspiring. I try to design my armies around 3 or so battle groups of units which are designed to work well together and ideally I would like inspiring to cover each of them.

I would avoid overloading the Wizards with spells as each one can only cast a single one per turn. Pick a role (buffs or offensive) and stick with it (unless you have the points spare).

The elven bolt throwers are pretty good- they are the most reliable war engines in the game. They may not do a huge amount of damage each turn but each time they wound they give you a chance to rout or waver the enemy unit so they are ideal for sniping low nerve units which have strayed from their sources of inspiring.

I would consider reorganising your force to have fewer troops and more regiments to allow you to unlock more support.


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