Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:16 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Portland, CT USA
This game is supposed to be fun and people are taking this whole balance issue a little too seriously. I have played many AoS games so far and this is the simple system we have used that has given us many enjoyable games.

I call up my friend and say "hey, you down for a 100 wound game?... Sure"
That's about it lol

Only other rules are:
cannot take multiples of the same named hero, aka, only one teclis or one tyrion

If you exceed 10 models then each additional model counts as 1/2 wound.

20 spearmen is 15 wounds
20 dragon princes is 30 wounds

: )


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 12:52 am
Posts: 23
My intention here is not to smash this system into the wall, merely to bring in another point of view. So forgive me if I sound too harsh.

The problem I have found with this system is that there are some dramatic differences in power between units that have the same amount of wounds. For example, Phoenix Guard are a vastly superior choice to Spearmen or Archers, and all three units have one wound per model. In the case of Orcs & Goblins, a Savage Orc is a stronger choice than a unit of Goblins, and yet they also only have one wound per model. These are rather extreme examples, but there are other examples out there.

At the end of the day, any game can be played for fun, be it Fantasy or Age of Sigmar, and don't let my opinion stop you from playing a game that you enjoy. But the fact that there are balancing issues in Age of Sigmar (just as there were in Fantasy) should not be casually discarded. That's when a conversation with your opponent should take place, to ensure that the game is fun, but also fair.

Stay true to Ulthuan forever, for her glory is eternal.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Portland, CT USA
I completely agree with what you're saying. I don't know why GW made the "core" units weaker. The only time I ever take them is if they're in a formation, I agree with the other player to take a minimum number of "core" units, maybe just for fun if we agree to take toned down lists, or they're Reavers. Otherwise we really don't use them much anymore : /

p.s. a possible fix would be to make the spearmen 1/4 wound after 10 models but then here we go on this twisting rollercoaster of balancing. Makes me very happy that I play with a good group of friends.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:25 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
gromo wrote:
This game is supposed to be fun and people are taking this whole balance issue a little too seriously. I have played many AoS games so far and this is the simple system we have used that has given us many enjoyable games.

I call up my friend and say "hey, you down for a 100 wound game?... Sure"
That's about it lol

Only other rules are:
cannot take multiples of the same named hero, aka, only one teclis or one tyrion

If you exceed 10 models then each additional model counts as 1/2 wound.

20 spearmen is 15 wounds
20 dragon princes is 30 wounds

: )


I apologize if I am going to sound very harsh but I am getting a bit tired of the "This game is meant to fun so leave it alone you haters!" fallacy that is used as an excuse for the piss poor rules GW cranked out for AoS - WHFB 5th/6th/7th/8th are/were fun and they had oh... I'd say substantially better rules than AoS.

Heck, I can still call friends of mine (Well, not at the moment because between a toddler and moving to a new place I have zero free time) and ask "hey, up for a 1000/1500/2000/2500pts FB/40k game on X day?" He'll say yeah and that's it - it's the same effort you have, really.

As D-4QP said, any game can be played for fun, as the concept of fun is completely personal. Bringing such a vast and subjective term in the defense of a game system really only shows how AoS is in clear need of such defense and that, that does not speak well of the game.

As for the Core units being weaker than the Elite, it's because they are less expensive for players to purchase than the costly Elite ones - because hey, you don't have a points system to bar the number of PG/WL you can field anymore, so who cares about the Spearmen? It's GW money-grabbing at its best.

gromo wrote:
Makes me very happy that I play with a good group of friends.


I have a select good group of friends too and we still play FB. See how subjective this all is?

_________________
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."

http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Portland, CT USA
Ya know, I'm getting really sick of listening to the hate. If you want to keep playing fantasy, go for it. You won't need to spend another dime either because GW isn't making anymore fantasy models or books. Age of Sigmar is the future, and personally I really enjoy playing it. In a few weeks there will be a few more rules to help balance the armies on the battlefield, but besides that, the game is fun and different.

It's fairly obvious though why the elf players are hating so much. We can no longer run around with our light stars and smugly dominate every tournament. Nor can we close our eyes and pick any unit in our armybook and have it be equal or better than any other unit in any other armybook. (If you think shadow warriors were bad, you should have read every other codex. We were blessed to have them be one of our worst units.) Fantasy was not fun. I hated going to places and completely crushing people with zero strategy. I don't enjoy that, my tomb king player friend didn't enjoy it, my orc friend did not enjoy it... you get the picture. The armies have a MUCH better balance now. Even the system I made is better balance x1000 than Fantasy was. The AoS games I've played so far have been close, no matter which faction I chose to play or play against.

Now can we please get over the hate, keep the rest of our opinions about AoS to ourselves, and talk about the subject matter of the forum.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:25 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
The moment you pulled the "Shut up haters" card I am not going to bother anymore. We are talking different languages altogether.

_________________
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."

http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/


Last edited by Lithlandis Stormcrow on Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Portland, CT USA
I apologize for being so rash. I'm just sick of listening to this. I'm sorry you don't like the game and I apologize for being harsh.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:01 am
Posts: 45
I actually think there are merits to including suboptimal choices in a list. For instance, goblins. Why include them? They aren't good defensively or offensively. One reason to bring them is to present targets for you opponent. In other words, you want some juicy targets to pull in the enemy to try and lure the enemy in. In an uncomped game, models slain equate victory. So, a player sees a pile of goblins, says "Giddy up" and sends in some elite killing machine. Sure a bunch of Goblins die, but if you positioned the rest of your forces in a smart manner you can get a supporting charge in. And once the elites are in you can have the Goblins retreat to conserve their numbers.

In other words, you use such choices to offer tempting targets and as screens for more elite units you don't want in suboptimal combats. So they help with board control as well.

Granted, you could do the same with better units, but better units don't offer the same tempting target and might make your opponent over cautious in the movement phase.

All of this is theory at this point, haven't gotten enough games in yet.

As for your comp, I like it. Makes basic troops worthwhile, as getting their numbers bonuses doesn't cost an exorbitant amount. I might say that half cost though should only apply to units that get numbers bonuses though. Makes the elites still expensive in larger numbers.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Portland, CT USA
Cinncinatti wrote:
As for your comp, I like it. Makes basic troops worthwhile, as getting their numbers bonuses doesn't cost an exorbitant amount. I might say that half cost though should only apply to units that get numbers bonuses though. Makes the elites still expensive in larger numbers.


That's actually a great idea.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:01 am
Posts: 45
Glad you like it!

If you try it out let us know how it works out, I'm very intrigued by it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Portland, CT USA
My friend gave me a great idea for balancing summoning too which we may begin to try:

Treat summoning as an ongoing spell.. the wizard casts one less spell now. This makes sense because he needs to continue to animate the bodies.

Now every ongoing spell can normally be dispelled, correct? If the unit is still on the table by the time it's your next hero phase you can roll a 2d6. If you beat the wound count then the summoned unit is dispelled, if you're in range of course.

So there you go. To balance AoS, anything with a model bonus uses the 1/2 wound rule after 10 models, no duplicating named characters, and anything summoned is treated as an ongoing spell.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:01 am
Posts: 45
At first glance I like it. Summoning is so tricky, but this seems to me to allowing summoning dependent armies to still thrive. Looking at Vampire Counts, the have so many wound mitigation means with their standards and such high base bravery (10!) that even skeletons are a hard nut to crack before you even add summoning. Your solution would also bring back the crumble test in a way, as wiping out summoners would eliminate units again! Of course you need to keep strict attention to which models are summoned, as zombies can merge units, but hey that's not a big deal.

I'm not as familiar with all of the summonable units so there could still be problems but like I said, at first glance it looks solid.

I definitely want to hear about some battles using these house rules. Could you post something about them if you get a chance?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Portland, CT USA
Maybe I'll make a full eagle army and just send them straight at the mages lol

Sure, I won't be playing again until next week but I'll post a report.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:52 am 
Offline
Young Eataini Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 3608
Disclaimer - I've only played one game of AoS and I'm generally pretty dismissive of it.

HOWEVER, with all the talk of how GW makes better rules for more expensive models and given that AoS has no official points system, it's made me think, what if, instead of points, cost was used? Instead of a 100 wounds game or 1500 pts in 8th, why couldn't you say you want a £100 game (using GW prices)? That way, you limit the number of monsters, characters, elites etc. I actually think it could be a fairly balanced system.

_________________
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:01 am
Posts: 45
Haha the MSRP Comp. I like it!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:15 pm 
Online
Very Helpful Elf

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Posts: 3921
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes
A few people over on warhammer-empire have tried it, and so far they seem to think it works pretty well. Even if it did feel a bit tacky.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:19 pm
Posts: 378
gromo wrote:
Treat summoning as an ongoing spell.. the wizard casts one less spell now. This makes sense because he needs to continue to animate the bodies.
it would be easier to just allow an unbinding attempt from any range when the summoning attempt is made.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:26 am 
Offline
The White Star Captain

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:16 pm
Posts: 2814
Location: Cothique (QLD)
Shannar, Sealord wrote:
A few people over on warhammer-empire have tried it, and so far they seem to think it works pretty well. Even if it did feel a bit tacky.

I can't imagine that Beastmen would've been happy about the MSRP pricing. :lol:

Gets a bit tricky for combined kits though, doesn't it..? :|


@ Gromo, you must understand that AoS IS NOT the future, how you put it.
It may be for you and others that like what has happened to the Warhammer world, but for many, the end of everything has hit a little closer to home. No pun intended but happily accepted.
Please also understand that I am not a "hater", I like many of the rules of AoS, but mainly because I've been working on some rules that are similar. I do however, dislike immensely what they've done to the Warhammer/AoS World.

I do see a slight problem in you liking/loving AoS so much..
Why are you changing the rules if it's a good Balanced game?
Did I miss the explaination of balance inwhere larger units get a discount to their cost..? And not only for 'Core'.?

Have you played the game how it describes yet? No restrictions etc, with an Underdog Bonus..?
I'm very interested to hear how it actually plays out. As I haven't had the opportunity to do so yet.
No-one wants to play a one sided game, regardless of whom is the would-be-Sider.

_________________
Sincerely,
Kitlith

Image

Head of the Ninth Age 'High' Elves of Light Army Support.

The Mighty Pen (App) Link coming soon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Portland, CT USA
I do like the MSRP rules lol

And you guys are right, AoS is a huge change. I was more into the 40k scene and building up my high elf army on the side. I just happened to finish it up as AoS came out, so I never really experienced fantasy too much. I won't lie, I LOVED how different the game was though. The infantry in blocks looked spectacular, flanking, charging up hill, and all these cool rules made the game really deep, tons of magic to choose from.. It felt like the game took much more skill to play than 40k. I really don't know why they did this, AoS SHOULD have been a different game altogether. I don't know too much about Horus Heresy, and I'm not trying to get anybody upset, but I don't know anybody who plays that. The main 3 should have been fantasy, sigmar, and 40k. I'm not exactly thrilled about the change but I'm just trying to make the best of it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:48 pm 
Offline
The White Star Captain

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:16 pm
Posts: 2814
Location: Cothique (QLD)
Very good diplomatic reply, diplomatic in a good way not the normal way. Quite composed and I also see your dilemma and agree with your opinion, so keep playing Fantasy if you want, no one is going to stop you.

_________________
Sincerely,
Kitlith

Image

Head of the Ninth Age 'High' Elves of Light Army Support.

The Mighty Pen (App) Link coming soon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:36 pm
Posts: 19
My opinion:

I have enjoyed AOS so much more than 8th edition games.I honestly don't think Tabletop gaming is supposed to be about winning at all costs it is supposed to be about having fun.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Easy Balance
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:59 pm 
Online
Very Helpful Elf

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Posts: 3921
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes
laurie1 wrote:
My opinion:

I have enjoyed AOS so much more than 8th edition games.I honestly don't think Tabletop gaming is supposed to be about winning at all costs it is supposed to be about having fun.


It's good that you've enjoyed it, but that wasn't what 8th edition was about either...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group