How long will AoS last?

[Andrew_uk]

I thought I'd invite people into a bit of fun and let you all debate how long we will have to wait for a new fantasy edition it's just a bit of silly fun

Max 3 votes each

[Loriel]

only few votes, but I love the optimism so far

[Grenic]

Personally I’m hoping that Games Workshop recognizes over the next year or so that they need to have a Fantasy game that has a smaller/skirmish entry type side and a larger regement side that uses the same models and basic stats.

If they do, they could easily add "Warhammer – Age of Sigmar - Regiments", which could just be a Compendium that adds more regiment type rules.

Also, doesn't anyone else think that Games Workshop could make a set of cards to represent the Warscrolls (by faction) for easy reference on the game board? I know I would buy an Aelf set.

[Shannar, Sealord]

It'll get a few years. GW doesn't seem to be a company that can respond quickly to anything these days. It happens when you get big and then last awhile.

If it doesn't work out, and once the novelty wears out I don't think it will, I expect GW will decide they are done with fantesy.

What will be most interesting is to see how that affects some of the other miniatures companies who don't have their own game.

[John Rainbow]

I'm with Shannar. I can't see GW backtracking on this one. What will actually happen with AoS is beyond me though. It's obvious the community wants something more balanced with a competitive basis and the longer it takes for this to happen the more customers GW will lose.

[cptcosmic]

it wont last long.

Imho they killed their reputation with this move and you can see the results in my local store. there were always people in the store playing but its empty all time since this weekend.

[AD8899]

This is a money sink and GW will do whatever they can to make it work. Any massive new release by a company this big is unlikely to be a complete write-off in the first year, and even if they just sell lots of figures to 40k players for conversions they should see some return.

GW is viewing this as a new game launch, and they are prepared to lose a large percentage of the vet gamers from WFB, because that was seen as a declining market that they'd have eventually lost anyway. GW doesn't react to feedback because it sees itself as a strategic-thinking company. The higher-ups like to think in terms of 5-10 year plans, and that means not changing course entirely if something bombs.

AoS isn't an attempt to save WFB, it's an attempt to claim top-spot in the fantasy miniatures market all over again, and to stay there. Even a minor profit (which they are likely to make easily) in the first year will see them kick on. New game, new PR style, new core customers. In the end, GW will absolutely back the quality of their models to win out - and the view in the company has, for some time, been that a major flaw in WFB was that classic aesthetic. As far as GW is concerned (and they are right), the miniatures sell the game - not the other way around. A great game will support some miniature sales, but amazing miniatures will attract people anyway - and most of GW's target audience are casual gamers who like cool looking toys.

[Sackree]

I'm not sure what effect this will have on other companies game systems. I have been looking into KOW 2nd edition because it looks good and I own both ogres and high elves but picking up that game system doesn't benefit mantic either as I'll be using GW models and their rules for 2nd are free

[Shannar, Sealord]

I'm not sure what effect this will have on other companies game systems. I have been looking into KOW 2nd edition because it looks good and I own both ogres and high elves but picking up that game system doesn't benefit mantic either as I'll be using GW models and their rules for 2nd are free

If enough people do that it will benefit mantic greatly. If they become the big game new players will end up buying their stuff. That's a bit of a long term strategy though.

More interesting will be what happens to some of the companies that make models that were clearly intended to use in WFB. If KoW2 catches on they'll be fine. If not it could be rough as they are unlikely to fit with the look of AoS going forward. Of course they might just change their look as well.

[John Rainbow]

I'm not sure what effect this will have on other companies game systems. I have been looking into KOW 2nd edition because it looks good and I own both ogres and high elves but picking up that game system doesn't benefit mantic either as I'll be using GW models and their rules for 2nd are free

If enough people do that it will benefit mantic greatly. If they become the big game new players will end up buying their stuff. That's a bit of a long term strategy though.

More interesting will be what happens to some of the companies that make models that were clearly intended to use in WFB. If KoW2 catches on they'll be fine. If not it could be rough as they are unlikely to fit with the look of AoS going forward. Of course they might just change their look as well.

I can see a lot of current players moving over and not buying any mantic models unless they do something to better their models - ergo not much help to them. I see this as a huge opportunity for some other companies to jump in and fill the void. It will be interesting to see what actually happens.

[AD8899]

My main barrier to Mantic is that their models generally suck.

I have their zombies in my Vampire Counts collection, but aside from that they are fairly dire. If they can attract better designers, or improve their manufacture, then they could well do very well out of this.

What Avatars of War and Scibor show is that you don't have to be GW to achieve reasonable levels of detail, but that doing so takes a long time and crappy materials can ruin all your good work.

They will probably need more investment - and that's a chicken and egg issue right now. GW may have annoyed a lot of people, but they have also massively upped expectations when it comes to quality.....and they planned it that way.

[Shannar, Sealord]

GW may have annoyed a lot of people, but they have also massively upped expectations when it comes to quality.....and they planned it that way.

How so? Even if you like the look of the new models (which I don't personally) I don't see where they are any better than what they were already doing. And their man sized figures have plenty of competition in terms of quality.

[Prince of Spires]

How so? Even if you like the look of the new models (which I don't personally) I don't see where they are any better than what they were already doing. And their man sized figures have plenty of competition in terms of quality.

I do think fantasy wise GW figures are above those of other companies in terms of quality. At least as far as having a complete range covering all kinds of models and having a uniform look and feel. I don't think the new models are a step up from what was released in previous fantasy releases though. But I'm yet to see the new models in person, so who knows.

One thing I do find worrying is that rumors are claiming that GW is planning to use the new look and feel of the Sigmarines for all future fantasy models. I don't care much for the new models, so I have some fear for what is to come model wise.

Rod

[Shannar, Sealord]

At least as far as having a complete range covering all kinds of models and having a uniform look and feel.

That much I can get behind, if you're considering how well they fit your warhammer army when looking at them. But if all you are considering is "that's a really nice model" then GW isn't even in the lead anymore when it comes to human sized things.

Big kits however are another story entirely. The only competition they have in that arena makes them for display rather than gaming.

[AD8899]

How so? Even if you like the look of the new models (which I don't personally) I don't see where they are any better than what they were already doing. And their man sized figures have plenty of competition in terms of quality.

Sorry, I didn't mean with the AoS release, I meant in general over the last decade. Their market strategy has been to spend big on production and design, so as to raise general expectations amongst gamers and make it more difficult (expensive) for start-up companies to compete with them. This "we want to make the nest miniatures possible" bit is PR, they actually wanted to tilt the market place's expectations - and that has worked. If GW had done what people asked and produced cheaper, but simpler/less detailed, minis over the last decade, then Mantic would likely have been more successful with their line. The majority of people who dismiss Mantic's stuff, in my experience, do so because the miniatures are not good enough compared to GW. If you talk to people from GW, they are well aware of tha effect of their business model.

[Prince of Spires]

But if all you are considering is "that's a really nice model" then GW isn't even in the lead anymore when it comes to human sized things

Who do you consider in the lead at the moment (genuine question, just being curious)? For me GW is making the man-sized models a bit too bulky, though some of them are still really good.

As for big kits, the aesthetics are a bit hit or miss for the last few. There are some great kits I would consider buying just because they look awesome (like the screaming bell or coven throne for instance) but also a few that look a bit lazy design wise (like the DE cauldron).

Rod

[Mentheus of Chrace]

I expect Age of Sigmar will last a while as a 'game played in Games Workshops stores by children' for a long time, but it will be effectively dead amongst people like us very quickly.

I just watched a veteran, expert Warhammer player go into a GW store with his Warriors of Chaos army and record battle reports of three straight games.

Game 1: Mannfred solo'd his army.
Game 2: First drop Nagash, second drop Mannfred, third drop Necrosphinx. Undead player claims sudden death, loses no models.
Game 3: Demons of chaos, normal looking battle, then he starts casting summoning spells.

He went 0-3 and none of them were games he had a hope in hell of winning.

[Andrew_uk]

He went 0-3 and none of them were games he had a hope in hell of winning.

Not only that - it also sounds like his games weren't even close to modelling a wargame.

[John Rainbow]

My main barrier to Mantic is that their models generally suck.

I have their zombies in my Vampire Counts collection, but aside from that they are fairly dire. If they can attract better designers, or improve their manufacture, then they could well do very well out of this.

What Avatars of War and Scibor show is that you don't have to be GW to achieve reasonable levels of detail, but that doing so takes a long time and crappy materials can ruin all your good work.

They will probably need more investment - and that's a chicken and egg issue right now. GW may have annoyed a lot of people, but they have also massively upped expectations when it comes to quality.....and they planned it that way.

So buy your minis elsewhere! What is to stop you? GW might continue making cool minis for VC so you can use those and any from other manufacturers you like.

[AD8899]

So buy your minis elsewhere! What is to stop you? GW might continue making cool minis for VC so you can use those and any from other manufacturers you like.

It doesn't stop me playing KoW, but it does mean I don't pay much attention to Mantic at the minute, and thus that I'd be less likely to pick up their rules as a newcomer to miniature wargaming.

If you see minis you like, you're probably much more likely to have a look at the game they are associated with.

[Shannar, Sealord]

But if all you are considering is "that's a really nice model" then GW isn't even in the lead anymore when it comes to human sized things

Who do you consider in the lead at the moment (genuine question, just being curious)? For me GW is making the man-sized models a bit too bulky, though some of them are still really good.

As for big kits, the aesthetics are a bit hit or miss for the last few. There are some great kits I would consider buying just because they look awesome (like the screaming bell or coven throne for instance) but also a few that look a bit lazy design wise (like the DE cauldron).

Rod

That's fair on the big kits. I was thinking of the steam tank- which is amazingly well done, and even our skycutter. Which I think is the dumbest thing ever, yet it still looks awesome.

As far as individual models that are as good or better than the GW ones they are all over. For example if I wanted an stuff for my empire army I'd start with the Perry Brothers and then add from there. There are honestly to many possibilities to list, and many of them have started to branch into elves and dwarves and the like as well. I don't know if that continues now or not. Heck, even this mostly private project has stuff that's better than much of the current GW range: http://whiteknightminiatureimperium.blo ... 0Halflings

Part of it is increased quality by the other guys, and part of it GW slipping a bit or trying to look "different/unique" and just putting out bad designs. The current empire state troops for example are just awful.

[RE.Lee]

A bit of opinions from the business side of things:

I've ordered some Empire stuff (Demis, Blaster, Troops) to have a more fleshed out army to play 8th with. The lady who runs the internet store called me 15 min ago, saying that she has to cancel the order, because she's shutting up shop. She just doesn't see how these AoS things would sell, and if they go the same route with 40k - how anything GW produced is going to sell. So she said she was sorry but she was done with this nonsense.

[AD8899]

GW will likely be pleased by that. They want people to buy direct.

[Andrew_uk]

GW will likely be pleased by that. They want people to buy direct.

True, but first and foremost they want people to buy their product.

People buy the models but they do so because in doing so they also buy into the game, the gaming space, the community, the fluff... Now look at that list of points...

• GW have removed the elements that made this a competitive game
• GW have therefore also removed all the time we spend on theoryhammer/list building
• GW have removed the gaming space for anyone wanting to play older editions
• Thus destroying the community
• GW have removed all the fluff associated with the old world

Now people will continue to play fantasy in some form, but we can't do it in GW anymore and we'll spend our whole time grumbling about it. So we'll play some fantasy based Wargame of some form; either an old edition rehashed or a different format... but it won't be in store.

The models we use for this could come from anywhere - so we *could* choose GW. But can you honestly tell me that the Sigmarines are really nice models? What would draw me to buy those over something else?

[AD8899]

GW's view is that they define the market. They say as much in their yearly reports. They will be well aware that this move will cost them veteran players, but they saw that as a failing demographic anyway. People I know at GW are confident this will sell for them, once the full launch happens. There are going to be a serious number of launches over the next 6 months, with several armies showing up. People will pay attention, and GW are confident their minis will sell themselves - as they always think they will. They think that people are stopped buying minis by the entry price (now a bit lower) and density of the games (now gone completely).

Time will tell.

[Prince of Spires]

But can you honestly tell me that the Sigmarines are really nice models?

Actually, yes I can. Their look is not for me and I feel absolutely no need or urge to buy them. But I've held them in my hands, had a good look at them and the are really nice models. Lot's of little details on them and a uniform look. And if you like 40k space marines then these will probably appeal to you. They're not WH fantasy models and they don't fit into the current range of models. But as a model, they are nice models.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

GW's view is that they define the market.

I'm wondering whether GW see themselves as a bit like Apple.

Ie, they feel they make the best hardware (the models) and that will always sell. They have dedicated retail stores, their competitors don't. Then there's the secrecy, the need for control, the law suits etc.. Perhaps GW's attitude to the software (the rules) is where the comparison falls down.

[John Rainbow]

While I can see the analogy in some ways I don't think they have the flagrant disregard for their customers that GW does.

[Elithmar]

I think everyone's being a bit premature with their judgments. As far as the rules are concerned, I really like that they've simplified them hugely and I think this was a brave move. I'm slightly disappointed that they've reduced the choice when building characters, for example with less options for mounts and magic items, but overall I think it's a good decision. The biggest problem is of course that there are no restrictions on building armies. If they can fix this, or if fans can make some common restrictions which can be used for tournaments etc, then I'll be happy with the rules.

We still don't know what else GW is going to release or if the rules are going to stay in their current form. I don't know whether they're just using the PDFs to bridge the gap between 8th and AoS and they're going to release proper printed rules, but if the PDFs are permanent then I see that as a huge advantage. Firstly, the books were getting ridiculously expensive. However, there is also a great opportunity for GW to change the rules easily to respond to their reception. I know GW typically doesn't seem to listen to us, but perhaps they've changed; after all, they've changed the game enormously, so why not their attitude as well?

So I'm going to reserve my judgment for a few months to see what else they release, if they change the rules further and what's happening with old models. If they introduce points values or some other restriction, I think it could be great. If they don't, well, there's always 8th edition.

[John Rainbow]

I think everyone's being a bit premature with their judgments. As far as the rules are concerned, I really like that they've simplified them hugely and I think this was a brave move. I'm slightly disappointed that they've reduced the choice when building characters, for example with less options for mounts and magic items, but overall I think it's a good decision. The biggest problem is of course that there are no restrictions on building armies. If they can fix this, or if fans can make some common restrictions which can be used for tournaments etc, then I'll be happy with the rules.

We still don't know what else GW is going to release or if the rules are going to stay in their current form. I don't know whether they're just using the PDFs to bridge the gap between 8th and AoS and they're going to release proper printed rules, but if the PDFs are permanent then I see that as a huge advantage. Firstly, the books were getting ridiculously expensive. However, there is also a great opportunity for GW to change the rules easily to respond to their reception. I know GW typically doesn't seem to listen to us, but perhaps they've changed; after all, they've changed the game enormously, so why not their attitude as well?

So I'm going to reserve my judgment for a few months to see what else they release, if they change the rules further and what's happening with old models. If they introduce points values or some other restriction, I think it could be great. If they don't, well, there's always 8th edition.

I actually really like the reduction in options and simplification of a lot of the rules. What I don't like is that I think they went too far. There is no longer the same tactical options in terms of movement, shooting, etc and getting rid of things like flanking has IMHO taken too much away. And lets not forget balance (or the lack of). I'm still up in the air about AoS.