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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:18 pm 
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After my first UB practice / test game I quickly realized that some of the elements that seem to be taken away actually still are around very much.

For example.

Effective Rank Bonus

K, on the last edition ranks gave static combat resolution and allowed supports attack to be made. They also had steadfast to help them hold their grounds

Well here is example picture (porprotions are not correct etc, but principle can be seeing here)

Image
Image

Image
Image

ok these pictures are not the most perfect ones, but in short having "3 ranks" compared to "1 rank" and get charged in corner means about extra 4-6 attacks. so that would be roughly "the same" as +2 combat resolution in old one. well not exactly, but you get the point. Effective rank bonus.

Effective Flank Charge
Ok as we know in the old one flank charges were really good / bad thing depending were you flanking or not. The basic effects were +1 to combat resolution, denies support attacks and some saves such as parry. Additionally if the flaking had rank also ranking bonuses were denied. Additionally if unit was charged from multiple flank it couldn't reform.

Image
Image

Well lets assume opponent will have straight line formation of troops with maximum of 1 inch apart from each other. (very ideal I know) getting charged from both flanks means. No pileup option for the defender. Also it will seriously cut attacks. You are not allowed to move if you are 3 inch from enemy and you can only pile up, but unit must maintain 1 inch from another model. If we would charge from both ends to "ranked" unit then the most middle ones needs to be left there to connect the two parts of the unit. Thus effectively negate attacks that could follow from pileups. The wider the unit is the topology of maintaining 1 inch between friendly models makes the unit more vulnerable to flank charges.

"Redirecting"

Well redirection in old edition in nutshell means, stall enemy big threats from doing what they are supposed to do. This was achieved by running some mundane troops infront of them, changing their overrun directions, forcing march tests etc.

Well redirecting in this form doesn't exist, but.

Image
Image

Lets take our previous edition redirection masters, Reavers. Now if you clip only one model to the corner of the unit 1/2 inch apart from it then the conga line with exact 1 inch apart. now you cut down many attacks your opponent can do by filling this. Additionally as the reavers can shoot prior to charge they can do significant ammount of damage. and you can remove models as you see fit. so remove from back until one of opponent pile up models is within 1/2 of the second model, then kill the one that is closest to the opponent. Your back reavers will get 3 shots per round to the unit and this unit performance is hindered next to nothing additionally this actually can cause really negative effect on battleshocks for the unit in question. As the rules state that the unit that starts turn within 3 inch from enemy model can either retreat or remain stationary. It is actually little odd that it isn't models. In this situation given that this game has really smooth and dymanic movement why couldn't those dudes that are in the back simple "run" to aid. well not by raw.

------

These were really basic things, hope it helps people to find more tactical elements from the game.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:51 pm 
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HI Loriel,

Many thanks for taking time to prepare these nice diagrams to show your ideas! As our game recently showed AoS definitely has some things you can do to apply tactics.

However, it just looks so messy :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:20 pm 
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Loriel wrote:
"Redirecting"

Well redirection in old edition in nutshell means, stall enemy big threats from doing what they are supposed to do. This was achieved by running some mundane troops infront of them, changing their overrun directions, forcing march tests etc.

Well redirecting in this form doesn't exist, but.

[diagrams removed to shorten the post]

Lets take our previous edition redirection masters, Reavers. Now if you clip only one model to the corner of the unit 1/2 inch apart from it then the conga line with exact 1 inch apart. now you cut down many attacks your opponent can do by filling this. Additionally as the reavers can shoot prior to charge they can do significant ammount of damage. and you can remove models as you see fit. so remove from back until one of opponent pile up models is within 1/2 of the second model, then kill the one that is closest to the opponent. Your back reavers will get 3 shots per round to the unit and this unit performance is hindered next to nothing additionally this actually can cause really negative effect on battleshocks for the unit in question. As the rules state that the unit that starts turn within 3 inch from enemy model can either retreat or remain stationary. It is actually little odd that it isn't models. In this situation given that this game has really smooth and dymanic movement why couldn't those dudes that are in the back simple "run" to aid. well not by raw.

Unfortunately, I think Redirecting is pretty well dead in AoS due to 360 degree LoS and the ability to charge in any direction. However, I can see Redirecting being the result of a decision to "Charge Pitting" your opponent.

What I mean by Charge Pitting is using a unit like the Reavers to advance rapidly as close to exactly 3” from the target as possible (but not any closer than 3") and then charge in. The basic idea here is to arrange the charging unit (other than the first model) such that it creates the largest possible foot print resulting from the 3” charge or retreat bubble. This has the effect of trapping any of the unitls within 3” into not moving, retreating, or charging the unit. For units outside of the bubble, they are forced to move around this extended bubble, not move, or attempt a charge.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:43 pm 
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The most interesting thing about all of this is that they are dependent almost entirely on how the enemy arranges their models to present you with the opportunity rather than on how you move yours.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:50 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
The most interesting thing about all of this is that they are dependent almost entirely on how the enemy arranges their models to present you with the opportunity rather than on how you move yours.

Interesting observation i will have to test this a bit more.

In my test game, the units tended to retain typical rank and file formations until they charged/piled into combat, at which point the models attempted to wrap around the enemy as much as possible.

I did come across a situation that the post combat formation, although legal, was not all that helpful in the subsequent movement phase and some of the unit’s movement was used to take on a better formation in preparation of the next charge attempt. Basically if I had not done this, the number of models that could pile in would be fewer.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:18 pm 
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Just as an example:

Quote:
Effective Flank Charge
Ok as we know in the old one flank charges were really good / bad thing depending were you flanking or not. The basic effects were +1 to combat resolution, denies support attacks and some saves such as parry. Additionally if the flaking had rank also ranking bonuses were denied. Additionally if unit was charged from multiple flank it couldn't reform.

images removed for space
Well lets assume opponent will have straight line formation of troops with maximum of 1 inch apart from each other. (very ideal I know) getting charged from both flanks means. No pileup option for the defender. Also it will seriously cut attacks. You are not allowed to move if you are 3 inch from enemy and you can only pile up, but unit must maintain 1 inch from another model. If we would charge from both ends to "ranked" unit then the most middle ones needs to be left there to connect the two parts of the unit. Thus effectively negate attacks that could follow from pileups. The wider the unit is the topology of maintaining 1 inch between friendly models makes the unit more vulnerable to flank charges.


This is true, and it works as described. But only a fool of a took would give you that chance.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:50 pm 
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Grenic wrote:
However, I can see Redirecting being the result of a decision to "Charge Pitting" your opponent.


Thats why I added " " to the redirection and the main consideration is the effect. Played right it has similar effect as redirection had in previous games. Charge Pitting is actually really good word for it.

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
The most interesting thing about all of this is that they are dependent almost entirely on how the enemy arranges their models to present you with the opportunity rather than on how you move yours.


Yep that is true. This game is more reacting to your opponent (all the way from army building / deployment)

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
This is true, and it works as described. But only a fool of a took would give you that chance.


This is true and example is ofc ideal, to show that some of the elements still exist to some extent. But the models has to be placed somehow. If they are in gongaline opportunity to do this still exist as you can charge with faster units to the back of the unit. after prolonged battle the unit will be in more line formation compared to ranked or circular. This opens opportunity to do "flank charges".

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:26 am 
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The 3-4 games I saw today was basically giant cluster pile-ins in the middle. These were good players playing too, not just random scrubs.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:52 am 
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HERO wrote:
The 3-4 games I saw today was basically giant clusterfuck pile-ins in the middle. These were good players playing too, not just random scrubs.



Yes. There is just so little to be gained by NOT getting into combat, and nothing dies quickly so more and more help arrives. And you can shoot into the combat the entire time. The kids loved it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:54 am 
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I still have a spare griffon from IOB, I think I will mount it on a telescopic stand, that can be extended to 50 inch or something :twisted: this is totally legit cause bases dont count and the model is still in the deployment zone atleast 12 inches away from my enemy.

I will then go to GW stores and challenge people to play against me. I will pull out my HE griffon prince warscroll and say I am done. if my opponent takes 2 more models I will take Endure from sudden death table, then place it with the telescopic stand extended and enjoy my autowin.

ofcourse I will make a nice photo of the EPIC WTF face expressions of GW staff and my opponent and a photo of the gaming table. then I will post it everywhere I can with hashtag #GAMESWORKSHOPSTUPID or something similar.

ofcourse this will only work once and all further matches will be draws but doesnt matter, what counts is the message.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:34 am 
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cptcosmic wrote:
I still have a spare griffon from IOB, I think I will mount it on a telescopic stand, that can be extended to 50 inch or something :twisted: this is totally legit cause bases dont count and the model is still in the deployment zone atleast 12 inches away from my enemy.

I will then go to GW stores and challenge people to play against me. I will pull out my HE griffon prince warscroll and say I am done. if my opponent takes 2 more models I will take Endure from sudden death table, then place it with the telescopic stand extended and enjoy my autowin.

ofcourse I will make a nice photo of the EPIC WTF face expressions of GW staff and my opponent and a photo of the gaming table. then I will post it everywhere I can with hashtag #GAMESWORKSHOPSTUPID or something similar.

ofcourse this will only work once and all further matches will be draws but doesnt matter, what counts is the message.

Lol, my response would be fairly simple. Sure, as the base is ignored and the telescopic stand is part of the base and not the model, its vertical distance is also ignored.

So, come on over here WAACmaster C and try to take that terrain feature or I will simply blast you out of the "sky" with my RBTs! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:21 pm 
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Grenic wrote:
Lol, my response would be fairly simple. Sure, as the base is ignored and the telescopic stand is part of the base and not the model, its vertical distance is also ignored.

So, come on over here WAACmaster C and try to take that terrain feature or I will simply blast you out of the "sky" with my RBTs! :lol:


the "good" rules disagree with you. you measure from model to model. your models are on the table, my model is 50 inches away from them. and good luck shooting it, check you RBT range, hint: it is not enough


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:35 pm 
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Very nice thread and tactics. While elves aren't exactly the most tanky models, the pile-up can also be used to force a hammer and anvil mechanic:
Image
The pile-up is forced towards the anvil, which keeps the damage on your flanking unit minimal.


Another important choice is selection of the models that are removed from wounds and battle shock. You could, in theory, remove those models that keep you in combat. Like so:
Image
As the range of combat is 3" this might be hard to pull off, but this might save one against a flank charge, maybe.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:48 pm 
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cptcosmic wrote:
Grenic wrote:
Lol, my response would be fairly simple. Sure, as the base is ignored and the telescopic stand is part of the base and not the model, its vertical distance is also ignored.

So, come on over here WAACmaster C and try to take that terrain feature or I will simply blast you out of the "sky" with my RBTs! :lol:


the "good" rules disagree with you. you measure from model to model. your models are on the table, my model is 50 inches away from them. and good luck shooting it, check you RBT range, hint: it is not enough
Lol, nice try, but the rules actually say:
AoS Rules Page 1 wrote:
A model’s base isn’t considered part of the model – it’s just there to help the model stand up – so don’t include it when measuring distances.
As I ignore the base (the bolded part), that 50” distance of that telescopic seperation is part of the base so its also ignored. So you have to put the model on the table and measure the distance, this is the rule.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:52 pm 
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Grenic wrote:
As I ignore the base (the bolded part), that 50” distance of that telescopic seperation is part of the base so its also ignored. So you have to put the model on the table and measure the distance, this is the rule.


you can ignore whatever you want, the model is still 50 inches in the air, you still have to measure to it *facepalm*


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:57 pm 
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cptcosmic wrote:
Grenic wrote:
As I ignore the base (the bolded part), that 50” distance of that telescopic seperation is part of the base so its also ignored. So you have to put the model on the table and measure the distance, this is the rule.


you can ignore whatever you want, the model is still 50 inches in the air, you still have to measure to it *facepalm*

The rule also says to "stand up" not "fly".

Now if you want to put your model standing on a 50" high terrain item, that would be fine, but then again the model on top would not be able to move as it would have to scale down this distance in order to move. On the other side my models would have to scale said terrain feature. The question would be can they get to your model before the end of the game! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:13 pm 
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Grenic wrote:
cptcosmic wrote:
Grenic wrote:
As I ignore the base (the bolded part), that 50” distance of that telescopic seperation is part of the base so its also ignored. So you have to put the model on the table and measure the distance, this is the rule.


you can ignore whatever you want, the model is still 50 inches in the air, you still have to measure to it *facepalm*

The rule also says to "stand up" not "fly".

Now if you want to put your model standing on a 50" high terrain item, that would be fine, but then again the model on top would not be able to move as it would have to scale down this distance in order to move. On the other side my models would have to scale said terrain feature. The question would be can they get to your model before the end of the game! :lol:



you either havent read the rules or lack reading comprehension...

it is simple, my griffon is modelled to be up in the sky with nice clouds around it. nothing in the rules prevents me deploying it 50 inches above the table like it is modelled. it is legitimately placed inside the deployment zone and nothing in the game can reach it beside another one that is modelled in a similar way.

oh and btw, the model not falling over and standing has nothing to do with its actual pose or the way it is modelled and has nothing to do with fly rule or whatever. base is just there to help by RAW. or are you claiming all units need to be "standing"? if you wanna go that stupid route, well say goodbye to all mounted units (sitting) or in any pose that looks like walking or running and basically all units that are not standing stiff.

Heck, I could make regular archers that are modelled to be jumping really high, none of your melee only units could fight them cause for a successful charge you have to get within 1/2 inch of the model.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:25 pm 
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cptcosmic wrote:
you either havent read the rules or lack reading comprehension...

it is simple, my griffon is modelled to be up in the sky with nice clouds around it. nothing in the rules prevents me deploying it 50 inches above the table like it is modelled. it is legitimately placed inside the deployment zone and nothing in the game can reach it beside another one that is modelled in a similar way.

oh and btw, the model not falling over and standing has nothing to do with its actual pose or the way it is modelled and has nothing to do with fly rule or whatever. base is just there to help by RAW. or are you claiming all units need to be "standing"? if you wanna go that stupid route, well say goodbye to all mounted units (sitting) or in any pose that looks like walking or running and basically all units that are not standing stiff.

Heck, I could make regular archers that are modelled to be jumping really high, none of your melee only units could fight them cause for a successful charge you have to get within 1/2 inch of the model.
Look, if you don't want to play this version of Warhammer, then don't. I have been more than accommodating of your silly ramblings.

It would be better for all of us that want to at least give this rule set a fair chance if you just stopped posting in this thread as you really don't want to play this version.

As I have said, move on to the 8th Edition threads or some other game system.

I'm sure that even you can comprehend this response.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:34 pm 
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Grenic wrote:
I'm sure that even you can comprehend this response.

big words from someone that doesnt even manage to comprehend the super simplified rules from age of sigmar aimed and catered around 10 year old kids :lol:


this thread is about basic tactics and tricks and modelling advantage is part of it. with no proper ruleset you will sooner or later meet someone that actually does this. deal with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:18 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Loriel, would you permit me to put some of these schematics on Druchii net? With proper linking and crediting, of course!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:10 pm 
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Daeron wrote:
Loriel, would you permit me to put some of these schematics on Druchii net? With proper linking and crediting, of course!


By all means, I can send the original jpg if you wish, but feel free to use the links on loriel.kapsi.fi

and also thanks for the pictures. That anvil thing is good and solid choice also =)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:40 pm 
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Loriel wrote:
Effective Flank Charge
Ok as we know in the old one flank charges were really good / bad thing depending were you flanking or not. The basic effects were +1 to combat resolution, denies support attacks and some saves such as parry. Additionally if the flaking had rank also ranking bonuses were denied. Additionally if unit was charged from multiple flank it couldn't reform.

Image
Image

Well lets assume opponent will have straight line formation of troops with maximum of 1 inch apart from each other. (very ideal I know) getting charged from both flanks means. No pileup option for the defender. Also it will seriously cut attacks. You are not allowed to move if you are 3 inch from enemy and you can only pile up, but unit must maintain 1 inch from another model. If we would charge from both ends to "ranked" unit then the most middle ones needs to be left there to connect the two parts of the unit. Thus effectively negate attacks that could follow from pileups. The wider the unit is the topology of maintaining 1 inch between friendly models makes the unit more vulnerable to flank charges.
I’m not sure that the Effective Flank Charge depicted would actually result in the outcome shown in the second picture. The reason is the new alternating combat resolution now built into AoS. This game mechanic forces the charging player to nominate one charging unit to attack the target, resolve its damage, then allows the charged player to attack with its unit before the remaining charging unit’s attacks can be resolved.

This means that the defender can take any casualties from the end closest to the unit that has not yet attacked. As soon as this occurs, the attacking unit becomes the unit with the closest enemy model and can now be the focus of the charged player’s pile in move. The bigger problem is that if say two casualties were scored and both were taken at the end closest to the other unit, after piling in, that unit may not be able to pile in far enough to actually attack due to the limited range of AoS melee weapons.

A second possible aspect is that had one unit been in combat in the last round and the other charged in this round, failing to attack with the unit already engaged could result in it not being able to attack or pile in at all if the separation caused by casualties and the charged target’s pile in move moves its closest model to more than 3” away from the previously engaged unit (a unit that did not charge must be within 3" to attack). It would appear that the sequence may actually reward a “hold the line” approach when facing a charge on a subsequent turn.

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:48 am 
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I had another thought on that flank charge as well and it may answer some of your questions Grenic. The second flank charge (horses?) doesn't even need to reach combat. The "pile in" rules state that you can move up to 3" to the nearest enemy model... It doesn't state this has to be an enemy you are in combat with (the concept "in combat" doesn't exist).

In theory, you can force a model to pile-in away from combat by placing a flanker closer to an enemy model than the combat (but not within 3"). The controlling player has the liberty to make no pile-in move (or move 0") but the model is locked in position. Enough models have to stay within 1" of each other during the pile-in, forming a line between the locked models and the combat, prohibiting it to fully commit on the combat it is fighting.

This can be saved by a retreat, though. But it kind of restricts the enemy movement.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:51 pm 
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Daeron wrote:
I had another thought on that flank charge as well and it may answer some of your questions Grenic. The second flank charge (horses?) doesn't even need to reach combat. The "pile in" rules state that you can move up to 3" to the nearest enemy model... It doesn't state this has to be an enemy you are in combat with (the concept "in combat" doesn't exist).

In theory, you can force a model to pile-in away from combat by placing a flanker closer to an enemy model than the combat (but not within 3"). The controlling player has the liberty to make no pile-in move (or move 0") but the model is locked in position. Enough models have to stay within 1" of each other during the pile-in, forming a line between the locked models and the combat, prohibiting it to fully commit on the combat it is fighting.

This can be saved by a retreat, though. But it kind of restricts the enemy movement.
Agreed. Under the AoS rules just because you were "in combat last turn" has no impact on what actions you can take on the next turn.

I think some take away points for Combo/Flank Charging in AoS are:
- Flank charges may be better served when combined with a front or rear charge into the same charge target;
- When attempting to limit the charge target’s ability to fully use it’s pile in maneuver (“Pinning”), it is important to ensure that the closest model from each of the charging units is same distance from the charge target;
- When combo charging with a tank unit, place it closer than any other charging unit so that the charge target will have to either "hold the line" (generally speaking) or pile into the tank unit to maximize its attacks;
- When flank charged it is possible for the charge target to use a combination of casualties and its pile in maneuver to leave charging unit with stranded attacks.


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
The most interesting thing about all of this is that they are dependent almost entirely on how the enemy arranges their models to present you with the opportunity rather than on how you move yours.


I think that's a good way of doing it Shannar.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Question is, what is the point of having a line formation?


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:19 am 
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Area denial. With a 3" bubble around the mini's where your opponent can't move into spreading your models out denies him a lot of room for movement.

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