MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

By the end of February I had a great pleasure to play against Ulthuan own pkng! We tried to organize that game for quite a long time and finally it happened. Pkng wanted to test his ETC style army so we played on ETC maps too. I want to apologize for taking it so long to post the report but I had a lot to do in March before going for one month holidays and when I got back there was immediately a lot to do again. Hopefully I will have some hobby time now, especially that I have some plans for painting and gaming (check my army blog for details).

Pkng is not only a very good player (he is going to be part of the ETC team this year again) but I was about to have a chance to play against some special characters and the army I haven't had a chance to play so far. At a time of playing I was still writing reports from CanCon and as such I was not sure where I want to go with army list changes. Because of that I decided to go with the very same army anyway and see what I can do.

Here is the army Pkng selected for our game:

High Elves - Army List

Alarielle the Radiant, Star of Avelorn, Stave of Avelorn, The Shieldstone of Isha - 350
Tyrion, Dragon Armour of Aenarion, Heart of Avalorn, Sunfang - 410
Mage, level 1, Dispel Scroll - 110 - Lore of Light
Mage, level 1, Channeling Staff - 100 - Lore of Light
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Dragon Armour, Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, Lance, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Ogre Blade - 178

15 Archers , Full Command - 180
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows - 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows - 85
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command - 260

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Musician, Standard Bearer - 252
20 White Lions of Chrace, Full Command, Banner of World Dragon - 340
Great Eagle

My army list for the reference:

Outcasts - Army List

Loremaster, Obsidian Amulet, Armor of Fortune, Earthing Rod - 320

BSB, Dragon Armor, Great Weapon, Talisman of Preservation – 154
Noble, Great Eagle, Dragon Armor, Star Lance, Potion of Foolhardiness, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar – 184
Noble, Barded Steed, Heavy Armor, Lance, Lion Cloak, Potion of Strength, Dawnstone, Charmed Shield – 149

14 Archers, Full Command – 170
14 Archers, Full Command – 170
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Herald, Bows, Spears – 136
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Herald, Bows, Spears – 136

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame – 175
5 Dragon Princes, Musician – 155
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord – 150
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord – 150
10 White Lions, Musician, Guardian, Gleaming Pennant – 165

Eagle Claw – 70
Eagle Claw – 70
Great Eagle – 50

So another episode of civil war, quite fitting for the End Times era, even if the match up had nothing to do with the story line :)

The army pkng chose is quite compact (at least for me as you can easily have even fewer units) and character heavy. That is always a warning sign as it means some nasty tricks. I must admit that it really felt like playing against completely new army with Tyrion and Allariele in particular. Let me have a look at pkng's choices from the point of view of my own army.

Allariele - She can pick her spells from Life, Light and High Magic but the fact pkng had also two level 1's with lore of light meant to me he would probably go for Light with her as well for that nice high S Banishment. She gives magical attacks to her unit but against my army it does not affect anybody. Chaos Bane special rule also does not affect my troops. 5+ ward save against non-magical attacks is very nice and combined with Banner of the World Dragon (as I assumed she will be with Lions unless something bad happens) means it will be much harder to hurt her and her unit. Healing characters at the end of the turn is very, very helpful. Ability to cast the same spell twice in the same turn (even if only once per game) is very useful too.

In general, she is a powerful wizard that will be backed up by 2 acolytes and well protected among Lions. She will also add useful protective/healing abilities. In order to get to her I would need to go through entire unit first.

Tyrion - Probably the best Elven warrior :) He strikes at S7 with Flaming Attacks so it looks like it can be exploited by some characters or units with 2++ ward save against such. He also have a breath weapon style attack that may come handy. 1+ armor with 4++ ward and 2++ against flaming as well as 4 wounds and nearby Allariele to heal him means he is very well protected. Add to that MR(2) and he is even harder to get as well as adding some extra protection to any unit he would join. For example, Dragon Princes would get 4++ ward thanks to his presence against magic. He is very fast with M10 too so the way to deal with him would be to tie him in combat with a unit or a character that has 2++ against flaming attacks and try to break with combat resolution or at least to keep him pinned down.

2 x level 1 Mage - Light acolytes are here to help with channeling in order to provide enough power dice to cast spells comfortably (also with Channeling Staff) and Dispel Scroll is always good to have. As I have mentioned before I assume they are also here to help with high strength Banishment.

BSB - mounted BSB with reasonable protection and trusty Ogre Blade. Always good to have 3 ASF S6 attacks to add to any combat, in particular in the subsequent rounds. He may fight in the shadow of Tyrion but will be important for the army nonetheless.

Archers - good support units, full command helps it to fight other light troops. Potential place to hide for the characters if Lions are in trouble.

Silver Helms - option for Tyrion and BSB to join, adding some versatility to the army. Big enough to be a threat on their own too, especially for my elites against which they get re-rolls to hit. With S5 on the charge they have an advantage in such combat. On the other hand they will be vulnerable to counter attacks and my own cavalry, especially with nobles. Searing Doom is also a very good spell against them and a few magic missiles can dent their armor too.

Reavers - fast cavalry, with bows only. As always a priority for me to attack so that I have fewer enemy units that can interfere with my movement phase.

Dragon Princes - hitting harder than Helms and better protected, in particular with Tyrion. But if pinned down can be destroyed due to typical for my army swarming. In both cases (i.e. heavy cavalry) bolt throwers will be a main threat for them.

White Lions - very well protected against magic, good protection against shooting with pelts and Allariele. Any detonations due to miscasts will be saved thanks to the Banner. So thinning them down will not be easy. However, if I can isolate them and attack them with Swordmasters and Archers (yes, they can do harm especially when supported by magic) I can grind them down.

Eagle - a handy redirector, has to be eliminated quickly but I have tools for the job.

In general, pkng has a huge advantage in magic and I had a feeling he would try to use it as his main weapon with Lions as a mobile fortress and cavalry led by Tyrion and BSB as protectors and interceptors. My goal would be to use my own ranged attacks to kill reavers, eagle and maybe hurt heavy cavalry. Then divide and isolate his regiments in order to surround them and defeat them in combat.

Terrain

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Map 4 - Andorran Opening

In ETC format there are particular rules concerning terrain. I am going to copy-paste them from the relevant document:

Hills - As per BRB description of an ordinary hill (p. 118 first 5 paragraphs, i.e. without the“Examples of hills” subsection) with following additional explanations :
- Line of Sight: Hills block Line of Sight.

Forests - As per BRB description of an ordinary forest (p. 119 first6 paragraphs, i.e. without “Mysterious Forests” subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Line of Sight: Forests are Interfering terrain providing Soft Cover for units, as described in BRB. For Line of Sight purposes Forests count as being of infinite height. This implies that units shooting trough forest will always suffer Soft Cover penalty, even if shooting from a hill or building.

Lake - As per BRB description of a Normal River (p. 120 first 5 paragraphs, i.e. without “Mysterious Rivers” subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Line of Sight: Lakes are non-interfering terrain features.
- Lakes are Water Features.

Obstacle: Wall - As per BRB description of an ordinary Wall (p. 123 with common rules for Obstacles,p.122) with following additional explanations:
- Walls definition of a unit “behind” is applied only to units actually defending the obstacle (i.e.aligned with it and touching it).
- Line of Sight: Obstacles are non-interfering terrain features.

Ruins - As per BRB description of an ordinary marshland (p.121 first 3 paragraphs, i.e. without “Examples of Marshland”
subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Ruins are NOT Water Features.
- Line of Sight: Ruins are non-interfering terrain features, providing Hard Cover for all units withmajority of their models in the feature.

Impassable
As the title says - infinite height, impassable terrain.

During our game only Obstacles: Walls were not present. PkNg won the roll off to pick the side and he decided to deploy South.

Deployment

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Deployment of the armies

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After Vanguard

Pkng won the roll off to choose the side and picked South. Deployment order was as follows:

1. Ellyrian Reavers - Ellyrian Reavers
2. Ellyrian Reavers - Eagle
3. Eagle - Ellyrian Reavers
4. Swordmasters - Archers
5. Archers - White Lions
6. Archers - Dragon Princes
7. Swordmasters - Silver Helms
8. Dragon Princes - Characters
9. Rest of the army

Wizards picked the following spells:

Allariele - Burning Gaze, Pha's Protection,Net of Amyntok, Banishment
Mage - Burning Gaze
Mage - Burning Gaze

Pkng won the roll-of for the first turn.

Edit: Since we played on UB I have more details about the game, even down to particular rolls of dice so whenever it is possible I will add them. I know not everyone is interested in these so the details are always after the narrative and I tried to make it descriptive enough to make it clear what happened. Feel free to scroll down to see how the game developed without being slowed down by numbers :)

At the same time I hope the details I provided would help to see what decisions were made, what spells were cast and which units were shooting at each other as well as how combats were resolved. I think these details can be as interesting to some as the game in general.


High Elves - Turn 1

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Clenching the fist

Tyrion gave the order to advance and positioned himself at a tip of a spearhead formed from White Lions. The rest of the formation fell behind to guard the flanks and only Silver Helms moved forward somewhat alone. The barrage of magic begun. As a result entire unit of Dragon princes was banished from the existence but the noble bravely held his ground. Archers on the right flank were protected by the spell too.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 5,5 --> 10:5 (no channels)
Pha's Protection at Archers: 9,3 --> cast, no attempt to dispel
Banishment at Dragon Princes (DP1): 2,4,6,6 --> Irresistible Force --> 9 hits, 8 wounds, 3 saved after 5+ armor and 6++ ward saves, unit wiped out.
Miscast result - 1,6 --> all wounds saved by the Banner of World Dragon

Shooting phase details

Archers at Bolt Thrower - move, long distance --> 5+ to hit, 1 hit, 0 wounds

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Shy advance

Outcasts moved on the West to try and envelope the enemy. The rest of the army assumed positions for ranged attacks and unleashed all they've got on Silver Helms. However, their armor deflected all the incoming missiles, magical or mundane and only one single bolt went through the ranks unhorsing two knights.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 2,5 --> 8:6 (one channel each)
Burning Gaze at SH: 2,6 --> cast, no dispel attempt --> 5 hits, 4 wounds, all saved
2d6 Fireball at SH: 1,4,5 + 2 = 12 --> dispelled on 1,3,5 = 4 = 13
d6 Searing doom at SH: 2,5,6 + 2 = 15 --> dispelled on 4,5,6 + 4 = 19

Shooting phase details

Ellyrian Reavers at ER2 - move, long distance, forest --> 6+ to hit, 1 hit, 1 wound, not saved
Bolt Throwers at SH - short distance --> 3+ to hit, 1 hit, 2 wounds, no armor save
All Archers at SH - move, long distance --> 5+ to hit, 12 hits, 8 wounds, all saved

High Elves - Turn 2

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First attacks!

Dragon Princes charge enemy fast cavalry but both units perform feigned flight maneuver. In order to cover the flank, Reavers move in between heavy cavalries. On the East, Silver Helms charge bolt thrower and overrun into Swordmasters behind them!

Tyrion slows down the advance to wait for the resolution of the flank attacks and to give time for Allariele and acolytes to thin down the enemy further. Two enemy archers were burned down to the ground. Then Loremaster managed to dispel Banishment cast at Swordmasters (S2) and luckily for them, the second attempt with the use of Staff of Avelorn failed. Then the Archers shot at Bolt Thrower again and this time one crew member was dead.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 2,6 --> 9:6 (one channel attempt for Pkng)
Burning gaze at Archers: 1,5 + 4 = 10 --> cast, no dispel attempt --> 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 save due to MR(2), 2 dead
Banishment at Swordmasters (SM2) : 2,2,3,3 + 4 = 14 (boosted version for extra range) --> cast, dispelled on 1,1,3,6,6
Banishment at Swordmasters (SM2) : 1,2,5 + 4 = 12 (re-cast from Staff of Avelorn failed)

Shooting phase details

Archers at Bolt Thrower - long distance, 5+ to hit --> 10 hits, 1 wound
Ellyrian Reavers at ER2 - 3 short distance, 1 long, move, 5+ and 6+ to hit respectively --> 1 hit, 1 wound, failed save, 1 dead

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Hitting back!

Fast cavalry rallied and together with the knights that accompany them, they continued harassing the flank. They shot down 2 of the enemy raiders but the survivors didn't panic.

On the East Loremaster, Eagle Rider and Archers rushed to help Swordmasters who were about to receive a hard punch. In the ferocious fight half of the regiment of warriors of Hoeth fell but they hit back hard and only 2 enemy knights were left standing. Surprisingly, they held their ground!

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 3,4 --> 7:6 (2 channels for Pkng)
Miasma at SH to lower WS: 1,3,4 + 2 = 10 --> dispelled on 1,3,4 + 4 = 12
Blizzard at SH: 1,2,5,6 +2 = 16 --> dispel scroll

Shooting phase details

Reavers at ER 2 - move, long range, 5+ to hit --> 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 saved, 2 dead, panic test passed
Bolt Thrower at DP - long distance, flank shot, 4+ to hit --> missed on 3
Archers at Archers - long distance, 4+ --> 7 hits, 6 wounds, panic test passed

Combat phase details

Eagle Rider vs SH Champion - challenge, SH Champion in the top left corner - Eagle Rider hits once on 3+ and wounds with no armor save allowed, SH Champion strikes at the same time - no hits.
SH at Loremaster - 1 attack on 4+, misses
SH at Swordmasters - 4+ with re-roll - 6 attacks, 5 hits, 5 wounds (2+), no save, 5 dead
Archers at SH - 4+ to hit, 10 Attacks (due to challenge blocking some of them), 5 hits, 3 wounds, all saved on 2+
Loremaster at SH - Great Weapon, 3 attacks, 3+ to hit, 1 hit, 1 wound (2+), saved on 6 (needed 5+)
Swordmaster at SH - 11 Attacks, 3+ to hit, 9 hits, 6 wounds (2+), 1 saved (needed 4+), 5 dead
Steeds at Swordmasters - 2 attacks, 4+ to hit, 1 hit, 1 wound (4+), saved on 6 (needed 5+)
Combat resolution: 11:7 in Outcasts favor --> Break test passed on a roll 1,2

High Elves - Turn 3

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Western flank is secured

Dragon Princes spotted the enemy knights trying to go around the flank and charged them. They retreated but in doing so were moved in the sight of Ellyrian Reavers and withdrawal turned into a retreat but heavy cavalry could not outrun fast horse and were destroyed in pursuit. (Edit: There is a slight mistake in a diagram but Dragon Princes could see my DP2 and that was my big mistake not to make sure they moved out of sight in the previous turn.)

Dragon Princes changed the direction of the attack and once again chased enemy fast cavalry but the Western flank was now controlled.

Silver Helms could not hold against more numerous foes now and brave knights were cut down to pieces. But magic was strong and Outcasts suffered some more casualties.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 2,6 --> 8:6 (no successful channels)
Burning Gaze at Swordmasters (SM2): 2,6 + 4 = 12 --> no dispel attempt, 4 hits, 3 wounds, no saves, 3 dead, panic test passed.
Net of Amyntok at Archers (A1): 1,3,3 + 4 = 11 --> dispelled on the roll 1,2,3,5 + 2 = 13
Banishment at Bolt Thrower: 4,4,5 + 4 = 17 --> failed dispel on the roll 1,5 (needed double 6 anyway) --> 7 hits, 2 wounds, dead bolt thrower, panic tests for destroyed unit passed

Shooting phase details

Archers at Archers - long range, 4+ to hit --> 4 hits, 4 wounds, panic tests passed
Reavers (ER1) at Reavers (ER1) - short range, move, 4+ to hit --> 5 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saved, 1 dead

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Premature attack

Reckless nobles decided it is a good time to attack. They wanted to use their opportunity to pin down and isolate the main enemy unit while the rest of the foe army was occupied elsewhere. Nearby troops were to advance at a double to be ready to create a second wave of an attack. However, they underestimated the defensive abilities of the unit protected by magic. Many of their attacks were deflected either by armor, everqueen's magic or banner's protection. Tyrion then stepped in and unleashed the fiery breath of his magical sword that incinerated enemy Archers. Outcasts lost combat by a smallest of margins but it was enough to break! They lost their regimental and army banner in retreat and eagle rider fled too! Tyrion and Lions chased him knowing that a single Archer and a Noble are not going to rally anyway. What a disaster for the Outcasts!

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 2,6 --> 8:7 (1 channel for Pkng)
Burning Gaze at the eagle: 1,4 + 2 = 7 --> dispelled on 3,6 + 4 = 13
d6 Fireball at the eagle: 2,4 + 2 = 8 --> 2,5 + 4 = 11
Miasma to lower WS at Lions: 3,4 + 2 = 9 --> dispelled on 3,4 + 4 = 11
Blizzard at Lions: 2,6 + 2 = 10 --> dispel attempt fails on 1 + 4 = 5

Shooting phase details

Ellyrian Reavers at the eagle - move, short distance, 4+ to hit --> 2 hits, 1 wound
Archers at the eagle - move, long distance, 5+ to hit --> 3 hits, 1 wound

Combat phase details

BSB vs Mage - challenge issued by BSB, Mage accepts - Mage fails to wound - BSB with GW wounds twice - Mage saves both with 5+ ward save
Archers at lions - 8 attacks, 4+ to hit with re-rolls, 2 attacks at champ, 2 hits, 2 wounds, no save, dead champ --> 6 at regular lions, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 3 armor saves on 5+, 1 ward save on 5+, 1 dead lion
Eagle Rider at the Lions - could hit the Queen but chose Lions so he can have re-rolls - 3+ to hit, 2 hits, 2 wounds, both warded on 2+ thanks to the Banner
Mounted noble at Tyrion - 4+ to hit, misses all attacks
Allariele at eagle rider - 5+ to hit, hits, does not wound
Mage at archers - 5+ to hit, misses
Tyrion breath weapon at archers - 2d6: 3,4 --> 7 hits, 4 wounds
Tyrion at mounted noble - 4 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2 hits, one deflected by charmed shield, 1 wound, saved on 6+
Malhandir at archers - 2 attacks, 5+ to hit, 2 hits, 2 wounds (3+ to wound)
Lions at Eagle Rider - 3 attacks, 5+ to hit, 1 hit, 1 wound, saved by golden crown
Lions at Archers - 5 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2 hits, 2 wounds
Eagle at Lions - 2 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2 misses, 1 stomp, failed save and ward, 1 dead lion
Combat resolution - 8:9 in pkng's favor, break test Archers at -1, need 8 on re-roll, got: 4,6 and 3,6 --> flee, lose bsb and regimental banner --> eagle rider break test at -1, need 8 but no re-roll due to dead bsb, got: 3,6 --> flee --> 1 archer and noble flee to safety, Tyrion and Lions chase Eagle Rider but don't catch it.

Edit: That was quite a long and complex combat considering there were only 2 units engaged :)

High Elves - Turn 4

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Tyrion finishes the job

Tyrion charges alone from the unit to catch fleeing Eagle Rider and catches him. Lions reform to continue magical attacks. The rest of the army reforms and converges towards the center. Outcasts are at huge disadvantage.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 4,5 --> 10:5 (one channel for pkng)
Burning Gaze at Swordmasters (SM1): 2,6 + 4 = 12 --> no dispel attempt, 6 hits, 1 at champion, fails to wound, 4 wounds on the rest, 2 saves, passed panic test
Burning Gaze at Swordmasters (SM1): 3,6 + 1 = 10 --> no dispel attempt, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead
Burning Gaze at Swordmasters (SM1): 6,6 = IF --> 1 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead
Miscast Result: 3,3 --> all wounds saved by the Banner, 6 dice lost, end of magic phase

Shooting phase details

Reavers at Reavers (ER1) - short distance, move, 4+ to hit, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 saved, panic test passed
Archers at Reavers (ER1) - long distance, move, 5+ to hit, 4 hits, no wounds

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Fighting withdraw

At this stage it was clear that the day was lost and it was all about trying to save what could be saved. Hence the regiments moved backwards and reavers tried to hunt down the wounded eagle while Loremaster and Archers tried to elimnate support troops.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 1,3 --> 4:3 (no channels)
Burning Gaze at Reavers (ER1): 1,2 + 2 = 5 --> failed dispel on a roll of 2 --> 5 hits, 1 wound, no save
d6 Fireball at Reavers (ER1): 5,6 + 2 = 13 --> failed dispel on a roll of 2,6 +1 = 9 --> 4 hits, 3 wounds, no save

Shooting phase details

Reavers at Reavers (ER1) - move, short distance, 4+ to hit - 4 hits, 2 wounds, dead unit
Archers at Reavers (ER2) - move, long distance, 5+ to hit - 4 hits, 1 wound, 1 save

High Elves - Turn 5

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Closing in to finish off the enemy

Outcasts were defeated but not broken yet. So Tyrion spurred his steed and raced forward to catch the enemy one more time. Lions advanced too while Dragon princes moved to form new battle line. Allariele targeted remaining Swordmasters but they survived and held their ground.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 1,6 --> 7:6 (no channels)
Burning Gaze at Swordmasters (SM2): 3,3 + 4 = 10 --> no dispel attempt, 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves, panic test passed
Banishment at Swordmasters (SM2): 1,2,2,5,6 + 4 = 20 --> failed dispel on a roll of 2,2,2,2,3,5 + 2 = 18 --> 4 hits, 2 wounds, no saves

Shooting phase details

Reavers at Reavers (ER1) - move, short distance, 4+ to hit --> 2 hits, 1 wound, no save, panic test passed
Archers at Reavers (ER1) - move, short distance, 4+ to hit --> 2 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves (double 6!)

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Pulling back

Outcasts continued their withdrawal and kept using whatever resources they had to hunt down enemy support units. Unfortunately, Reavers failed to finish their counterparts while Archers did a good job against enemy bowmen. They didn't panic though and remained on the hill.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 2,3 --> 5:4 (1 channel for Pkng)
Spirit Leach on BSB: 2,2,2,3,5 + 2 = 16 --> dispelled on a roll of 1,4,4,4 + 4 = 17

Shooting phase details

Archers at Archers - long distance, 4+ to hit --> 8 hits, 5 wounds, panic test passed

High Elves - Turn 6

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Mopping up

With Outcasts too far to attack directly it was up to Tyrion to charge alone and he did so against the Archers, cut down brave champion and surprisingly, his companions broke but were fast enough to flee to safety. Allariele used her magic to finish off the surviving Swordmasters though.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 2,6 --> 9:7 (one channel each)
Burning Gaze on a lone Swordmaster: 1,2,5 + 1 = 9 --> no dispel attempt, 3 hits, 2 wounds, no save, dead
Banishment on Swordmasters (SM2): 2,2,2,5 + 4 = 15 --> dispelled on a roll of 3,4,5,6,6
Burning Gaze on Swordmasters (SM2): 1,6 + 4 = 11 --> failed dispel on a roll of 1,4 + 2 = 7 --> 1 hit, 1 wound, no save, 1 dead, failed panic test on 5,5 and fled from the table

Shooting phase details

Reavers at Reavers (ER1) - move, short range, 4+ to hit --> 1 hit, 1 wound, saved on 5
Archers at Reavers (ER1) - 3+ to hit --> 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 saved, failed panic test on 4,5 and fled from the table

Combat phase details

Tyrion vs Archers - challenge, 4 attacks, 3+ to hit, 3 hits, 3 wounds, no wounds back, lost combat, steadfast, failed break test on 4,5 but escaped the pursuit.

Outcasts - Turn 6

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All is lost

Outcasts lost the day and it was their last attempt to hit back to (slightly) decrease the margin of the defeat. However, the winds of magic were very weak and the fireball attempt was dispelled. Only Reavers could shoot this time and they tried to get their counter parts but failed.

It was a heavy defeat for the Outcasts.

Magic phase details

Winds of Magic: 1,2 --> 3:3 (1 channel for Pkng)
2d6 Fireball at Archers: 3,4,6 + 2 = 15 --> dispelled on a roll of 4,5,5 + 4 = 18

Shooting phase details

Reavers vs Reavers - move, 4+ to hit --> 1 hit, no wounds

Summary

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Turn-by-turn summary animation

After-battle thoughts

First of all I would like to thank Pkng for a great game and congratulate him for a well deserved victory! =D> I was really impressed by the way he used his fewer units to keep the tight but mobile formation. In particular, his use of characters is something I admire as it kept his options free and made his army very versatile. I would also like to add that it was very inspiring to see how he first advanced cautiously but eliminated main threats (such as bolt throwers) then secured his Western flank and followed up with a final push to collect many points in the last turn.

Unfortunately, I am not happy with my own performance and I made several mistakes that cost me a lot. Against a very good player like Pkng they are even more costly because he exploited them immediately. That turned an interesting game into a fight for survival and minimizing the losses. Because we played with ETC format I lost 1:19 as the VP difference was 1300+. By comparison, if that result was achieved at last CanCon it would have been "only" 4:16.

Let's have a look at the things that I believe contributed to the end result:

1. Deployment - it is always something to analyze. Even if the battle went your way. In this case, I know that I didn't use my assets well from the start. First, I exposed Dragon Princes and they could have been a target. I should have at least put them further away to force boosted version of Banishment.

I also exposed Bolt Throwers, although if I wanted to place them elsewhere, then I would probably have to re-arrange whole battle line.

I didn't use the Eagle Rider in particular, to create a danger zone and Silver Helms could approach close enough to threaten bolt thrower but be safe from my Star Lance.

2. Western Flank - I had more units in there to try and at least threaten the flank but due to the mistake with Dragon Princes positioning, I lost the unit and the flank. That allowed pkng to move forward aggressively later during the game.

3. Premature Charge - Despite the fact that I discussed options with pkng during the game (more what can be done if did A and what if I did B but still) I didn't do the right thing. First of all, I didn't take into account the possibility of mages accepting the challenge. My intention was to tie Tyrion in combat with a noble or BSB so I thought that with a frontal attack he cannot decline the challenge.

In addition, he could still use his breath attack against the unit of archers and that was what was needed to shift the balance. Another mistake. On top of that I completely forgot about the Banner and Star Lance attacks went for nothing.

It was not the end of the mistakes I made in that combat. I should have rolled break test for Eagle Rider first, when I still had BSB. That would gave me the chance to charge the unit with Swordmastes, Lions and possible another unit of Archers as a second wave I planned.

However, the main question is: was it a good idea to charge so early? I could have blocked WL with an eagle and position regiments even better for a combined charge with many more regiments instead. I lost 2 heroes, bsb and a unit of archers due to that reckless charge. It is 782 points from single failed combat! #-o

4. Lack of focused ranged attacks - I think I also made a mistake in terms of focusing my ranged attacks. For example, having a flank shot against Dragon Princes was tempting and I fell for it but even if I hit and killed entire rank of the knights they would not flee (not likely with BSB among them) but instead I allowed some reavers for survive when I could have got rid of them. I also left 4 archers alive that should have been eliminated earlier. These are minor things in comparison to blunder of my premature attack but would have given me points I didn't get.

I wish I could have put up a better fight and I am afraid this time pkng was not tested to the fullest of his potential. Hopefully we will be able to schedule a rematch at some stage and that I didn't miss the lessons!

I also hope you have found this report entertaining!

Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Thu May 28, 2015 4:56 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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High Elves MSU - Observations
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Ladril Caledor
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#2 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Excited to see this one. Pkng has a really strong looking list, this is going to be a big challenge for the Outcasts. Both lvl one mages are listed as having dispel scrolls, I think this is a mistake and one has a channeling staff.
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#3 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ladril,

Thanks a lot for your comment and spotting a mistake, it is now corrected.

I agree it was a challenge for me and my army list but mainly because pkng is a very experienced player. :) I hope he will have time to comment at some stage too!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#4 Post by Loriel »

oh boy, this is really sweet battle. too bad it is so long ago so you probably don't remember all the important details ;) Do you have any irl pictures of the battle?

Few comments just out of my head

- that light council will have harsh effect on swordies little elves ;)
- I haven't played or really know much about ETC, but those terrain rules seems reasonable.
-I was almost shocked when you placed your army to the top! I would have really hard time doing this solely on fact that my... visual memory?.... couln't probably project mirrored view and I would do tons of mistakes only because of this.
- 3 wide stubborn white lion council bunker. yieks. Luckily he doesn't have proper defensive flank protector. but in away this unit is interesting that it doesn't really matter much do you manage to strike flank as the attacks in such deep formation is roughly same as 7 wl attacks generated to front.
- With 3 redirectors in general will be rather nullified against msu, as they cannot control significantly more costly units and gives real opportunity to gather points.
- Unless I am complete blind you didn't mention was he able to get banishment? that will be one of decisive spells for the battle.
- You both have infinite high high that blocks line of sight and both have ranged that needs line of sight. really really really interesting terrain indeed.
- Is the stone thing in your deployment middle also line of sight blocker that pretty much is for couple turn hard for light council to see?

ok, now to my forseeing abilities. I was surprised how well I managed with your CanCon 2015 so I assume I can do it again.
- I have zero idea how Pkng plays, but I think one of the key thing in this battle is does he go solo with tyrion. It a similar thing as I though in your cancon ogre battle that ended up in draw that if your opponent uses the tyrant solo it will be enough to generate needed points to actual win. The only thing solo tyrion would really have to worry about is RBTs. You cannot magically harm him, you cannot really static break him. So I think if he go for solo ride on time when the first battle occure you will lose the battle. ;) I will predict that pkng will not still do it as 8th isn't really herohammering time and many people doesn't really see the potential running the dudes alone. Against MSU I think it is really wise.
- I think this game ends ups a little stalling from both sides and when pkng is left only with white lions + mage council and dragon princes, it will be much more aggressive advance.
- You can "easily" get about 710 points (leaving tyrion / bsb / dragon princes and mage bunker alone) you both have will destroy 1 - 1,5 units per turn.
- pkng can "easily" gather all of your points (in terms of destroying unit) It is rather the rate how fast he can gather points. With magic shooting he can delete pretty much one unit per turn. You can also little bit more easily deny his magical missiles by sacrificing units unit to battle with wl and kill the normal mages for good return investmen. Say dragon princes to flank with deeper formation, or reavers 1 wide champion front to the flank. really really good invest so that there is only couple returns and manage to strike the mage with semi reasonable chance of killing it.

this seem for me so draw. bloodiest hell. As always dices makes the game and with some lucky panic test. For example first turn searing doom + rbt can easily panic/destroy silver helms. It doesn't take but couple bad winds of magic and pkng will pretty much lose the game, in this sense you have better odds to win this by small marginal.

Thus I am going to say that you are going to win the battle by difference of 150 - 200 points where only DP / WL units stands and you have lost tons of dudes all around, but with some random magic fickle it wasn't enough ;)
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#5 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Loriel,

Thanks a lot for so many detailed comments! I really appreciate them as this is what I always hoped to receive while positing an introduction to the game :)

I should have added that we played that game on UB and I tried to copy the chat so I hope I have all the details required. Unfortunately, no RL pictures of the models this time :(

It was my first game in ETC settings but in general I don't mind any terrain rules as long as we know beforehand what they are. I think it is also important to know the following rules for line of sight are in play:
SIMPLE LINE OF SIGHT

Line of Sight is defined as model's front arc, limited by possible obstructions like hills or buildings. Unless otherwise mentioned (War Machines, Grey Seer on Screaming Bell).

Terrain pieces are divided into ones that:
- Block LoS: Hills and impassable terrain.
- Don't block LoS: all other terrain.

Unit is considered to be in hard cover when:
- Majority of unit's footprint is obscured from shooter's Line of Sight by one or more Interfering Unit(s) or LOS blocking terrain(s), as described on page 41 BRB
- Majority of unit's front rank is defending an obstacle, as described on page 122 BRB and ETC FAQ 8.4. If the unit is being shot from the flank or the rear, treat the corresponding file or the last rank, respectively, as the front rank
- Majority of unit's footprint is in Ruins

Unit is considered to be in soft cover when:
- Majority of unit's footprint is in or behind woods, as described on page 119 BRB

Models shooting from hills don't get the hard cover penalty for shooting through interfering units, unless interfering the unit is also on hill.

Units with majority of its models on hill do not receive hard cover for being shot at through interfering units, unless that part of the units which interferes is also on hill. Units with majority of its models on hill do not receive hard cover for being partially obscured from the shooter's LoS by the same hill they are on.

Large Targets can't claim cover for obstacles, ruins and interfering units, unless interfering unit is also a Large Target.
Large Targets which shoot don't suffer any penalties for interfering units, unless interfering unit is also a Large Target.
The reason I placed the army on top is because this is how I played on UB. It is actually a very interesting exercise anyway, try it out sometimes. You are used to playing from your South but it is not always the case on UB where somebody has to play from North. Totally different than in RL, where both players have their armies in front of them.

That 3 wide formation seems to be very common among the players, just for the protection purposes. Undead players of various kinds are even more used to it (or any other narrow but long formations).

I definitely wanted to use my advantage in the support units war and I expected pkng to either hide his fast units and/or keep tight formation waiting for me to commit first.

I haven't mentioned the spells yet but I can tell you that both level 1's took Burning Gaze and Allariele had Burning Gaze and Banishment. So yes, I was looking at facing magic missiles barrage.

Yes, Impassable terrain blocks line of sight too so can be used as a cover.

Pkng, from what I have observed, plays carefully and often chooses the armies that do damage on the distance, can protect points well and have counter attacking abilities. From that point of view it seems his army fills the profile :) I agree that the way to use Tyrion will determine his overall success but I didn't expect him to run solo right from the start. You will see how Pkng used this great special character soon!

The plan was indeed to dance around his big units to get to the support and try to split the formation. But again, I cannot say more without spoilers. :P

I really like the rest of your analysis, very good approach and as I see you are perfectly neutral, trying to look at respective strength and weaknesses. I will do my best to finish the report soon so that you don't wait too long to see if your predictions were accurate!

Thanks again!
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#6 Post by Loriel »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: I should have added that we played that game on UB and I tried to copy the chat so I hope I have all the details required. Unfortunately, no RL pictures of the models this time :(
ok, this explains alot ;)
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: I agree that the way to use Tyrion will determine his overall success but I didn't expect him to run solo right from the start. You will see how Pkng used this great special character soon!
I actually forgot dragon princes fireborn. Tyrion needs to watch out that too, for prolonged tarpitting ;)
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: I really like the rest of your analysis, very good approach and as I see you are perfectly neutral, trying to look at respective strength and weaknesses.
I will try my best. Nice that you say "perfectly neutral" as I truly am your fan ;)
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#7 Post by RE.Lee »

Nice setup! Its good to see Tyrion taking the field - I've been thinking about using him as well. The Outcasts might have a hard time here, with their opponents so fast and hard hitting - I can see the Dragon of Cothique going on his own against all those small units of yours. Experience with the list will count in your favour, though. Can't wait to see the details - I think this might be a bloody draw!
cheers, Lee

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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#8 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ Loriel

Thanks a lot for your kind words! I am very happy I have a fan in you and will do my best to deliver more reports in the future!

@ RE. Lee

It is very nice you too spread the support evenly between both players! Cheers for that! :)
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#9 Post by Caledfwlch »

Hey Swordmaster,

Great stuff! I'm very much looking forward to your report: your concise commenting on the lists and pre-game context is a great teaser!

First of all, I like how you deployed your army. Your MSUs give your deployment the likes of the starting-line of a game of chess: the units all cover each other, whilst the wide deployment makes it difficult for your opponent to determine what the main force of your army is, and how you will act in the next two rounds. Hold back? Move up agressively? Will forces split-up, or mass towards a particlar area? I find this match-up particularly interesting as I try to get acquainted with the MSU strategy at the moment. I played a 2000pts game against a dwarven gunline using MSUs yesterday, and took a lot of inspiration from your blog! So thanks a ton, both for the interesting blog and the upcoming report!

I'm not a very experienced player, so I won't try to predict the outcome (what Loriel wrote down seems plausible). However, from my comfy-seat in the visitor's gallery I can mumble something about what I would try to do, if I was facing your MSU-list (and through that reversed-psychology obtain an idea of what I would do if I played with your MSU-list, hopefully).
To me, there are two main scenarios to choose from:

1. In the first scenario I could have the main units (I reckon these are the DPs+Tyrion and WLs+Alarielle) operate seperately. DPs head North-West to get the DP2 (hopefully in such a way that the WLs have to move around the Dp vs Dp2 battle), whilst the rest goes North-East to strike at your bunkers (here, I would thrust the SHs into the second DP unit). Unfortunately, this gives you numerous options to distract and out-flank both main units - thus taking out both separately.

I'd say that the Allarielle bunker would hold out better against the combined effort of your SMs and DP1, than the DP+Tyrion against your WLs and Dp2 - mostly because of a lack of static combat resolution. Or would it be the other way around?

2. In the second scenario the two main units team up - either by just holding back to get the buff-spells going and see whether you mass your units together or spread out. OR by rampaging straight ahead towards your archer-bunkers. I guess that is what I would do, since I would fear that your left flank (i.e. your DP2/ER1+ER2/WLs) will become a swamp in which my troops are locked down only to find your SMs charging me behind. I guess I would have my WLs and DPs move North-East quickly, whilst archers, eagle and Reavers head North-West to be sacrificed to your Wls and Dp2 (and even S2). The Silverhelms would go North-West too, to either engage with your DP1 or to form a screen against your attempts to block my rush to the archer-bunkers.

From your part it would only require your Dp2 and ER2 to lock down the DP+Tyrion whilst the WLs, DP1, S2+S1 head for the WLs. the SHs can be distracted by the eagle and shot down with the ECs.

Does anything I wrote here make sense to you, or am I overlooking some vital strategic points here?

I'm not sure if I'm asking too much of your time by posing a final question: could you perhaps describe the sequence of how you guys deployed? What units went first, what units went last? I'm curious to read more about it, especially given the somewhat surprising vanguard moves of the four Ellyrian Reaver units... were they placed first? That would seem logical in the case of Pkng, but in a MSU list that's not necessarily the case, is it? Again: if that's too much of a hassle, then don't bother - we're already lucky with you writing such extensive battle reports.

Cheers!
C

...who, btw, is working on a battle report as well. It involves not only an especially overconfident reaver defying a unit of 30 Longbeards+Epic Runesmit, but also a list-strategy that starts with 'M' and ends with 'ultiple small units'. Stay tuned!
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#10 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Caledfwlch,

Thanks a lot for your fantastic feedback and apologies for a delay in replying! I always do my best to address any comments and feedback I receive so please, do not hesitate to post if there is anything you are interested in or want to share. Battle report serves only as a start of a discussion :)

Many thanks for the kind words too! It motivates me to keep writing the reports and contribute to the forum a lot!

Now onto your comments!

Deployment is a very important phase of the game for any army. What you describe is the situation I try to achieve in my games, basically a flexible formation that allows me to use my units in mutual support and go for defense or attack or anything in between. It is also important to have the right formation from the start as a significant percentage of my army is infantry based. In order to be able to get to the right position for an attack and to claim more victory points I cannot afford to start from the wrong spot.

Please, do not hesitate to cast predictions either! This is also part of the game, some players even claim that to be able to assess the possible result of a particular match up is crucial. Especially for a tournament player where he needs to choose the right approach as every point may count. Even in casual games it is a good skill to have as it helps to choose right tool for a job and do not something that may look ok but is doomed for failure.

What is more, the fact that you may have less experience than some players puts you in a position with a significant advantage. You are not constrained by what you know and may be more open to think about new solutions.

I like the basis of your analysis, i.e. what would you do if you were my opponent with this particular force and how would you try to dismantle my army with the tools you have. It is more challenging but the good thing in this game is that we both play with the units from the same army book.

The first scenario is a more aggressive approach with the risk of being surrounded by more numerous units but with the advantage of seizing the initiative and forcing me to attack when I am not ready. It is one of the approaches people used to win against my army, push fast and hard and use local superiority of force to prevent my units to swarm around bigger enemy regiments.

It has additional advantage as a block of Lions with Allariele can blast holes in my battle line without slowing down. However, the risky part I have mentioned lies in the fact that if the magical barrage is not sufficient enough and if two groups attack at different pace then I might divert one attacker and surround the other one. At least that would be my counter tactics.

As to who has better chances against two groups it depends on how many units I can get into respective flanks of the units and if I can tie Tyrion and other characters. White Lions do not have combat resolution either (at least initially in this formation) and if they happen to be too far from BSB their stubborn test may still fail (although is not too bad as they have high Ld with Allariele). Ideally, I would like at least 3 combat units against one of the main units led by pkng.

Maintaining formation was also a prove of a good approach against MSU because my army relies on swarming and I cannot do it without separating the elements of the enemy formation first. If such formation tries flank attack with refused flank approach then it is also a good option as they can trap half of my army and block the other from joining the fight. Playing defensively is also an option because pkng has superior magic and can use it to fight at a distance while his cavalry would assume interceptor duty.

The way I would try to counter here is to delay the approach or use the empty flanks to envelope the enemy first if it decided to go for defense.

In my opinion both scenarios are good ideas, both would be a challenge to counter but would require different tactics. Which is very interesting in itself because I often noticed that armies with few units tend to be one dimensional in the way they fight.

What I would add to your excellent analysis is that you can also have a combination of both. For example, you can maintain close formation in order to blast some of my units you consider the biggest threat and then use units to move forward aggressively to fight the units that have suffered casualties or cannot rely on mutual support anymore.

Yes, I intended to add deployment order but you need to forgive me as it seems I forgot to take notes as to which of the regiments that were doubled were placed first. I won the roll off and was first to deploy a unit. I present the deployment order in pairs, my unit first and then pkng and his response.

1. Ellyrian Reavers - Ellyrian Reavers
2. Ellyrian Reavers - Eagle
3. Eagle - Ellyrian Reavers
4. Swordmasters - Archers
5. Archers - White Lions
6. Archers - Dragon Princes
7. Swordmasters - Silver Helms
8. Dragon Princes - Characters
9. Rest of the army

Thanks a lot for asking that because you reminded me about adding a very important information, I don't always have the deployment order, especially when I play in real life. It is absolutely not too much to ask at all!

I often start deployment with reavers too but I would agree that there might be circumstances where I would wait with my fast cavalry to take a better advantage of their speed. For example, it may be against Bretonnia where the opponents usually take second turn so that they can pray and get Lady Blessing. That means that if I have Fast Cavalry in the right spot I can use vanguard and first turn move to pass by enemy formation and be in a position to attack his vulnerable war machines turn two.

I also have a question for you. What was surprising about Ellyrian Reavers vanguard moves for you? How would you do it or what did you think we would have done instead?

Many thanks for your great post again and for all the kind words. I hope you will enjoy the report too. I am looking forward to reading about your games as Battle Reports subforum always needs active members to contribute!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#11 Post by Caledfwlch »

Hey Swordmaster,

Thanks for your kind words and quick reply! I'm not ironic regarding the latter: I'd say that such an indepth reply within 24 hours is rather quick! After all, you're doing this on a voluntary basis. :)

Once again you gave some insightful comments on the scenarios! Given your hints at a third scenario which combines scenario 1 and 2, i'm even more curious in how the battle was fought: in general with respect to the moving around of units, and more particularly in terms of whether and how pkng reformed his Lions to deal with your units (here I assume that, apart from the reavers to block LoS, there was little need for you to reform units in advance of combat). Keeping them as they are keeps Alarielle out of harms way, but indeed hampers the Lions' ability to rampage. For me it is the main reason to put topnotch spellcasters in archer-bunkers instead, for if I don't I tend to become too cautious - which hampers me in making those bold (Napoleonic) moves that tend to decide battles.

I fully second your remark that armies with few units tend to be one dimensional in terms of the way they fight. I find that using multiple small units contributes to the feeling of having the agency to adapt a plan de campagne should sudden changes occur. This reassuring effect enables me to keep my head cool in dire situations.
For example (spoiler alert!) in the battle I fought last sunday: my Silverhelms fled off the table in turn 3, after an organ gun killed 25% of the unit. This unfortunate event not only resulted in the loss of my general (yes, I failed LD-test twice :roll: ), but also stripped me of the chance to combo-charge a unit of miners with the SHs and Frost Phoenix. Lucky for me a unit of 10 Swordmasters was close enough to step in to give the miners a new haircut. The MSUs do put a lot of pressure on opponents, as most opponents fear roaming units of 10 Swordmasters/ White Lions.

Thanks also for adding info on the deployment! I was surprised by the way both you and pkng moved the Reavers, because I hadn't even thought about moving them backwards instead of forwards. In my book - so to speak - one moves Reavers forwards to take advantage of terrain in the middle of the battlefield: to make room for the rest of the army, and to head towards warmachines as soon as possible. This is why I assumed both of you started with the reavers, but were both unhappy in how they were positioned after all units (especially the opponents' archers) had been positioned.

To answer your question on what I would do regarding the reavers: I think that in this case it makes sense to put the versatile chaff first to see what happens. Especially considering the fact that your opponent has to place his two big combat-units very quickly. Your MSU-list is clearly in a advantageous position here. One thing I thought about was to move ER1 or even both ERs towards the South-East to block the advance of Pkng's SHs and WLs, and so give the impression that your left (i.e. Western) flank is easier to reach, and thus a more tasty target. But on second thought I see that moving the ERs like that results in a big chance that Pkng's archers kill them off in his turn 1. This makes your decision to move them backwards a smart thing to do. The same goes for pkng.

Like most players I tend to position the reavers/eagles first, as this leaves options to anticipate on opponent's units open. When doing so I usually try to make sure that the vanguard move ensures that I can hide the Reavers somewhere in the middle of the battlefield. At the moment I do play with the thought to position bolthrowers or even a Silverhelmbus immediately, hoping that this preemptive strike enables me to dictate where and how close combat is fought. To the least it could put an immediate pressure on the match that hopefully disrupts my opponents' pre-battle expectations - or at least nudges him/her to deploy his/her army in a certain way.

In general, however, I would say that a MSU-list gives you some good opportunities to put down two combat units. For instance on what you would actually consider an outskirt of the battlefield, or in the center to lure your opponent to put his main combat units down in a certain way. This is a bit of a two penny psychology on my part perhaps, but I can't resist the impression that even the positioning of two relatively small combat units early on in the deployment phase has a strong performative effect, and is very effective in directing people's thoughts. I know it kinda works that way for me: as soon as my opponent puts down a single unit I start wondering whether the rest will be positioned left or right, and this directs how I set up my army.
But then again, I might underestimate the role of terrain-set up in this train of thought. Looking at your table in the pre-deployment setting it seems almost inevitable that the main battles take place in the mid-eastern section of the table. I guess few players would position their army south-west, or north-west as both spots leave little manouvring space and hamper LoS. Or would they?

Anyhow, it's getting late, and instead of rattling on it might be a better idea to shut up and wait for your report. :mrgreen:

Thanks again and best regards,
C
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE

#12 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Caledfwlch,

I am very happy to have a discussion like that so I naturally want to reply. It is great to create enough interest about the game with the deployment and initial thoughts only. In the past I learned a lot from discussions after each game (and I still do!). I think it can be a good exercise to try and predict the outcome too. Or at least discuss the possibilities. I can also verify my initial plan with what others suggest.

I guess there are good reasons for some people to take few units and one dimensional armies. It may be simply the way they like to play their games and at least in theory, each army should have strengths and weaknesses. If a player enjoys such a force then simply great!

Personally, I of course prefer different approach because I like it more and I know I can be more successful with the list I created myself rather than with something I didn't and I don't like. Even if on paper it will be stronger.

The most important thing is that there is a variety of styles and armies so that everyone can find something they like.

Vanguards moves are very interesting. Indeed, there is that urge to move them forward no matter what but it is not always the best option. Here, both of us wanted to see where certain elements are going to be placed. For me, for example, it was important to see if pkng is going to go for a refused flank, if yes which and where his characters are going to be initially. I think we both retreated with fast cavalry because we value this unit greatly and as soon as we saw they are in danger we moved them back. It is important to notice that pkng didn't risk his right unit even if he had better odds at having 1st turn.

So it is less of being unhappy but more about seeing how the deployment developed and how vanguard move allows you to keep the units safe as you noticed yourself and as you explained with the possible threat from each others archers.

In general, there is nothing wrong with placing eagles and reavers first. It is reasonable thing to do. You can position bolt throwers better or have your combat troops opposing the targets you want. It is of course a good option to begin with something else to force the enemy to deploy elsewhere too. Choosing the deployment order and being able to anticipate how the enemy will start is a very important ability so discussing it definitely is beneficial to everyone!

I don't think you are underestimating terrain. Especially for ETC style. I remember people who are actively supporting the ETC scene discussed the maps a lot. I believe each piece of terrain is placed to offer certain tactical advantages and using that to the fullest is very important. They look a little random but I don't think there is any coincidence in how they are designed.

Personally, I know I need to learn a lot about how to get the most out of terrain, no matter what is the set up. Terrain can be your friend or your enemy but it is up to you which way it is going to be.

In any case, I have just finished preparing the maps so I hope I will be able to post full report some time tomorrow.

Thanks!
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#13 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Just letting you know I have just finished writing the report, check out the updated first post! Also, apologies to the supporters as I have not performed up to their expectations :oops:
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#14 Post by Cealyne »

Hello Swordmaster!
Great report as always. Sorry for the hard loss. The coven star is a tough one to beat. I'm afraid my only real comment atm ( as I'm on break at work ), is that the dragon princes should have gotten a 2+ ward save against banishment... Banishment is flaming I do believe. Could be mistaken, it has been a while since I used that lore.
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#15 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Banishment isn't flaming, although Burning Gaze is (which makes sense).

Sorry about the loss. It was a really tough match up for MSU, as I said before. I wasn't quite sure what pkng was doing with his early movement but it worked really well, I definitely learned something from this report. Cheers and you guys should have a rematch!
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#16 Post by pk-ng »

peek-a-boo. Just finished reading the report :p and need some time to recollect my thoughts (it was 3 months ago), but will comment later :).
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#17 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for your comments!

@ Cealyne

Don't be! I am glad you liked the report and the point of posting the one from the loss is to learn from mistakes as well as let others avoid mine in their own games :)

As Ladril Caledor said Banishment is not flaming attack and that makes it even more dangerous!

@ Ladril Caledor

It's ok! I had a chance to learn first hand from a very good player so I take it is a harsh lesson. The bright side is that a significant percentage of the losses could have been avoided. I just made crucial mistakes and these were properly exploited. But it means I can play better next time, despite undisputed advantages Coven has over MSU.

I hope we would be able to organize a match up at some stage :)

@ pk-ng

Thanks for posting! I might try and search our Skype chat after the game, you had some fresh comments then for sure! On the other hand I wonder how you perceive the game after some time, also because I think you might not be playing with Coven at the moment.

Your feedback will be very appreciated and I am sure other forum members would love to know about it!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#18 Post by NonnoSte »

Hi Swordmaster,
It's really nice to read from you again and eagerly awaited too.

I enjoyed the game a lot since it showed great generalship from both sides. In particular I think you did a wonderful job in deployment (as other pointed out) and since it's a part of the game I still can't get my hands on confidently, it's good to have great examples to learn from.
On the other side, Pkng set up an incredible assault in few precise moves, limiting your deployment advantage and making you nervous with his superior ranged power.
Once I saw your charge turn 3, it looked plain and clear that he got you.

Anyway, apart from that combat and all the ineherent "mistakes" you already pointed out yourself, I was wondering if some different choices could have changed the outcome.

In particular, I think Pkng had the upper end of the match because his greater flexibility in the use of his characters.
Tyrion and the BSB jumped back and forth between units according to where they were needed the most and I think you should have done the same with your Nobles, for example using one of them to babysit the advance of White Lions (who has been out of the match completely) and the other to threaten a flank and his lighter units behind the bunker.
This also relates to an alternative in deployment which I would have considered too.
If you deployed your Steed Noble inside ER1, you would have lost their vanguard, but he would have been forced wheter to target your improvised bunker or your Princes. The Noble would have been safe from magic missiles anyway and you could have advanced "safely" with the untouched unit. Most important, the Noble could have joined DP2 in subsequent turns to threaten properly his left flank.
As it was, your DP remained exposed alone, being the only juicy turn 1 target and it just led to their loss and a shy use of the Steed Noble.

Maybe it's just that I'm a bit rash in my playing, but it still looks to me that sometimes you play really conservative, both with your Nobles and your infantry units.
Once I saw him castling around his coven bunker, I would have marched everything forward to try and break him, with the western flank threatened by cavalries. Probably I would have been banished to dust quicker, but it would have forced him to react and hopefully break formation or make some mistake.

One last note on his flexibility with characters is about the option you geve of blocking the bunker with your eagle to position better your units around him for a next turn charge.
With the two cheap mage available, he could have just ignored the Eagle and launch the two casters in the charge paths to act as sacrifical diverter to disrupt your surrounding plans.
Recently a Tomb King player used this tactic against me as I was approaching his light council bunker. He marched the three L1 mages outside the bunker, paying attention to make all my charges in the next turn impossible.

I don't say any of my suggestion could have made any difference and I know for sure I could have thought about none of them during the game, so good work on the match, even if it ended bad for your Outcast. Magic missiles spam is always bad news for MSU as it is the "Deathstar" approach. being faced to both was with no doubt rough for your army.

At any rate, thank you again for the efforts spent in the Battle Reports and your willingness to commit any kind of discussion about your games.
It's much appreciated from foreigners too.

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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#19 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi NonnoSte,

It is great to hear from you and I really appreciate your feedback, also as a fellow battle reporter!

I am really happy to know that you think my deployment was good as it is always a tough phase of the game that may determine the outcome heavily. I also know I have lots to learn about it still so thanks a lot for such a nice comment!

I hope pkng will have some time to share his plans from before the game and how did the game unfold from his point of view but I am really impressed by his game skills. I mentioned before that I noticed small unit count armies tend to dominate single aspect of the game. He did a great job with maximizing his strengths, denying me my advantages and being flexible in his approach to control the flow of the battle all the time.

It is a very good observation about the use of characters. Somehow, since the very beginning when I started using additional heroes, I cannot use them to their fullest potential. Pkng showed in a fantastic way how characters that are actually mounted can support any type of a unit.

It is also a very good suggestion about joining Reavers with mounted Noble. I fell for a trap of assuming they are not a good place for that move. I didn't consider putting him with infantry as I felt he would be more exposed but you are correct. There were plenty of opportunities and I missed them all. #-o

I agree I can be even shy with my approach where decisive and aggressive moves are required. Sometimes I can be reckless which is the other extreme and as such it is not good either. I keep telling myself I need to use movement phase properly. Especially with the infantry and against good opponents I need to be pro-active to create opportunities and move slower troops into the positions early enough. Waiting for the enemy is ok but not all the time. Being idle never served me well. While positioning of the regiments as you suggested could have put more pressure on pkng when his units were still facing different directions.

You also have mentioned something very important about cheap characters. I have observed that already, for example while watching a game from US Masters final and Undead player used his necromancers to do that job. It is a very good approach and pkng has already demonstrated he can use his characters in a very efficient way. I think he could have used that situation for something similar so I guess I need to be ready for such defense as well.

I am very grateful for your suggestions here. I learned a lot from such discussions in the past and I greatly appreciate that you took time to analyze my game and provide such an insightful feedback. I will do my best to remember these ideas and implement them in my future games. I am very happy that even the games where I lost can be a good start for ideas exchange and I hope other players can learn from my mistakes.

Thanks a lot! :)
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#20 Post by pk-ng »

Yo sorry for the long delay busy IRL. So where to start?

Overall tactic
I've read alot of your BP SM and similar MSU armies as well and obviously versus quite a bit of the 2014 ETC DoC which was pretty much MSU. MSU's tactic is usually
a) swarming the opponent
b) gang-banging a unit.

So in order for me to engage I need to play a tight game, ensuring me flanks are covered where possible and also have a large threat radius in order to reduce your unit's movement. If I were to engage your units and it was on your terms I would need to make sure I could beat you (or at least get support in) with in 1st / 2nd round of combat. Prolonged combat would swing it in your favour as (assuming you have stuff in position) would tip the balance. If I were to engage your units on my terms I would need to be quick and decisive to ensure you couldn't bring in supporting elements.

As stated MSU's strength is swarming the opponent and isolating my units if I advance it too far. This would mean I would also need to (in certain circumstances) spread my units out a little to counter your movement. It was essential that you couldn't get around my flanks because once this happens I would need to relocate some resources to deal with that said unit(s) but it'll weaken certain fronts (opportunity cost).

Army List
So looking at your army there was a number of character/units I needed to kill/destroy to give Tyrion a wide field of play and it was pretty obvious
a) BSB
b) Eagle Noble
c) Dragon Princes
d) RBTs
The top 3 units / characters are pretty obvious as they all have flaming ward which reduces Tyrion ability to roam freely and obvious do damage where necessary
The RBTs (even thought only 2) are a threat none the less and there wasn't a point in risking Tyrion on sole run.

Your other elements I could deal with comfortably either through shooting or combat. My units should be able to mow down most of your infantry units and because they are only M5 I should be able to dictate your movement rather than the other way.

Deployment & Sides
As stated I picked the bottom / south side. The reason for this was I didn't want your firebase to have a central hill but more importantly there was more cover on my side with the Forest, ruins and hill offering BS cover. Lastly I knew that if I gave you the top / north side that hill would be a big temptation for you to deploy your RBTs / archers and I was more than willing to give you that accommodation.

So the deployment is pretty self-explanatory with majority of my units either out of LoS or in cover to minimise your BS shooting. The helms we placed there as a sacrificial unit and also an element that you can't ignore as if I got into your back line you would be in danger.

Turn 1
Pushed the SH up to be in charge range in turn 2. I knew once SM had placed that RBT it was a bad deployment and was an opportunity for me to neutralise one of threats early on even though it'll probably cost me the Helm unit but at least I won't have to worry about later turn flank shots. I push the WLs and Archers up for magic / shooting range and re-position-ed my other forces to minimise BS attacks.
Magic didn't come at a surprise I targeted the DPs first.

Turn 2
The obvious charge came and I destroyed the RBT and OR into the SMs and sealed the SH's fate. The DP charge both reavers; even though both were I believe slightly over average (or maybe average) I knew SM would flee. I wanted to make sure the Reavers couldn't get into my back like so charging them would make them further away.
The use of Staff of Avelorn so early was I think a good choice. This would help me break the SM but just didn't swing my way. If this would of gotten through I would probably reform depending on the LoS. I would have a sweet heavy cavalry staring down your flank.

Turn 3
This was a pivotal for the West flank as it pretty much secured it for me with the death of your DP. With only your ER to harass me I didn't need to worry about them too much and can magic / shoot you with easy. Now my concentration would be on the East flank especially the remaining RBT. The Helms finally gets chopped for their troubles but your reform here was a bit strange. Your turn 3 charge into my WLs was a folly especially Archers vs WLs. You may get rerolls but as you've stated you totally forgot about the Breath weapon which was pretty much your undoing. Even though you lost by a narrow margin and you broke. Not breaking wasn't going to be an issue either. I would of been able to redirect your WL & SM and your ER (if you did charge them) would get chopped for their troubles. I would of been able to grind you out.

Turn 4 onwards
I knew I got the game so it was just time to mop up and grab whatever points I could.
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Re: MSU HE - 2400 vs HE - 28.05.2015

#21 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi pkng,

Thanks a lot for your very valuable feedback! No need to apologize, it took me too long to post the report anyway :) I am sure other forum members will appreciate your comments a lot as it is not often to get these from an opponent, especially from the one with such experience as yours!

Your overall plan got me thinking. If I were to summarize the conclusions I took from it I would say:

1. For MSU to win:
- outflank the enemy
- disperse its formation
- attack isolated units with overwhelming force (often from different directions)

2. For the enemy to defeat MSU:
- keep tight formation
- secure the flanks
- limit the movement - also with either fast troops of your own or with magic/shooting - all have higher range than my infantry

It is easy to see these goals are mutually exclusive but to me it seems it is all about the movement phase. Projecting the threat of heavy cavalry or single character charge, magic and shooting, while they all can result in very significant damage and destroying entire units, mainly serve to limit the movement phase. It can be by slowing down the regiments (as I might not want to get into charge range), killing enough to force panic checks or even create holes in formation by entirely destroying the units which means fewer regiments to attack next turn.

It also shows, in my opinion, the necessity of knowing where the units should be to achieve goals and to be aggressive in that approach in order to put pressure on the tight enemy formation.

When I looked at the priorities for you to eliminate in my army it looked to me that half of my force (or even more if you take body count and unit number) are not a threat to you at all. Swordmasters, Lions, Archers and Reavers were either too slow or not dangerous enough to worry about too much.

While I know it is widely accepted that these regiments do not have much of combat value, especially in small numbers, that was interesting to learn. It simply means that you as my opponent would not consider them as a priority unless they are close enough. And that means that they cannot be held back because they are just sitting ducks for your magic and shooting while not projecting any, even minor danger to your forces.

Or is it to say I should get rid of them entirely? ;)

In terms of deployment out of three elements I could affect only one. I had to deal with what I was left with, i.e. had to deploy North. I could not prevent you from deploying in cover either. So the only element I had was my own deployment.

I didn't have quite a choice with the deployment around the hill. The alternative I can think of was to deploy bolt throwers on the slope of the hill. If I understand correctly that would provide hard cover from shooting? I saw that on UB games by ETC players. THat would allow me to put some units to protect that flank and do not block my own shooting.

But what else would be a better choice?

I presume not offering DP's as a target for magic was also a good idea, especially because you mentioned them as one of the priorities to destroy.

It was very interesting point about my reaction with Reavers in turn 2. Of course there was no point for me to hold, as they would lose combat and the chance of DP not making into the fight was not comfortable. However, I didn't position them to suggest any other option and you used that perfectly.

I didn't show that on a diagram but I reformed Archers turn 3 to be able to have a flank charge with the Eagle rider. It was a bad decision anyway as he carries Star Lance and your WL have BotWD. But that was the reason I did that, to be able to flank charge Lions.

I agree I was looking at a bad situation after that turn. I assume you refer to revers and eagle as diverters for my Lions and Swordmasters? The thing was that you would not be able to use your magic missiles spells. And that is big already I think. What is more, with 3 heroes and 2 archers left, there was not much you would be able to hurt. I am not sure then that it was auto win for you if I didn't break.

I am not saying I would be in a better position. But maybe it was not as hopeless as it looks like now.

Anyway, I need to play better in the first place, especially with the force I have that has significant disadvantages to overcome.

Thanks again for your comments!

Cheers!
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