HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

After 2 months break in gaming I finally had a chance to play some warhammer at a small local tournament. It is a side event run in parallel to Australian Masters so in addition to fun associated with playing your own games one could also have a glimpse at Masters battles. In fact, MiniMe was 5 games and Masters is 6 games event so all who wanted to stay longer could observe the last turn of that prestigious tournament.

MiniMe is also organized as a practice tournament for a much bigger event, CanCon, that is going to take place by the end of January 2015. Because of that it used CanCon players pack:

CanCon - Players Pack

The main things about the pack are that it uses Swedish Comp in 10-16 brackets and uses the difference to modify the game result. The difference in composition score is multiplied by 150VP and that bonus is added to the victory points earned by the player with the softer army. In theory it may mean that if player A has an army with a score 10 and player B with a score 16 then player B adds 900VP to his victory points as a bonus.

I decided to take the following list to this tournament:

Outcasts - Army List

Archmage, level 4, Earthing Rod, Obsidian Lodestone - Lore of Heavens – 290 (archmage -18, level 4 -10, earthing rod -3) = -31

BSB, Dragon Armor, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Sword of Might – 150 (noble -4, bsb -10) = -14
Noble, Great Eagle, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lion Cloak, Star Lance, Potion of Foolhardiness, Dragonhelm, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant – 180 (Noble -4, eagle -4) = -8
Noble, Great Eagle, Dragon Armor, Lance, Potion of Strength, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone – 186 (Noble -4, eagle -4,second monster -4) = -12

15 Archers, Full Command – 180 (-7)
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Herald, Bows, Spears – 136 (-4)
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Herald, Bows, Spears – 136 (-4, second unit -2)
15 Spearelves, Full Command – 165 (-1)

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame – 175 (-10)
5 Dragon Princes, Musician – 155 (-10)
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord – 150 (-6)
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord – 150 (-6)
10 White Lions, Musician, Guardian – 150 (-6)

Eagle Claw – 70 (-7)
Eagle Claw – 70 (-9)
Great Eagle – 50 (-5)

Swedish Total: (300 – 146)/10 = 154/10 = 15.6

Points Total: 2389

Here is a teaser of the games to come in this tournament report:

Game 1 - Dustin - Vampire Counts - Dawn Attack

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Level 3 Vampire Lord
2 x level 1 Necros
Level 1 Vampire
Wight King BSB

40 Ghouls
27 Skeletons
2 x 5 Wolves
40 Grave Guard

Terrorgheist

Game 2 - Anthony - Lizardmen - Battle Line

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Old Blood on Carnosaur
Tetto'eko
Skink Chief on Ripperdactyl
Skink Priest
Scar Vet BSB on ColdOne

3 x 21 Skinks with Kroxigor
12 Skink Skirmishers

6 Ripperdactyls
3 Terradons
6 Saurus Cavalry

Bastiladon with Solar Engine

Game 3 - David - High Elves - Meeting Engagement

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Archmage
Cavalry Prince
Caradryan on foot
Mage on Steed
BSB on Steed

2 x 5 Reavers
6 Reavers
12 Silver Helms

18 Phoenix Guard

2 x Bolt Thrower
15 Sisters

Game 4 - Adam - Bretonnia - Blood and Glory

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Lord
Prophetess
5 Paladins, one with BSB

12 Knights of the Realm
18 Bowmen
6 Errants

11 Questing Knights
3 Pegasus Knights

2 x Trebuchet

Game 5 - Dave - Vampire Counts - Battle for the Pass

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Level 3 Necro
Vampire Lord

Level 1 Necro
Wight King BSB

40 Ghouls
40 Zombies
20 Zombies

28 Grave Guard
4 Vargheists
5 Hexwraiths

Terrorgheist

Stay tuned!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:28 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#2 Post by RE.Lee »

Cool list! Hopefully the fact that you haven't faced any cannons increased the life span of your Eagle Riders ;) Looking forward to the full report.
cheers, Lee

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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#3 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

HI RE.Lee,

Thanks! I wanted to try a few things with this list and it was a really good test. I have just received the army lists of my opponents from TO so I might update the first post with short version of each of them to spice it up a little and to give you some more details before I write the reports. It might take a little as I have lots to do in RL at the moment and I was happy yo find time for that event in the first place.

I really like the eagle riders. Although as soon as people saw the army list they thought I have two griffons :) I must admit that it is a very tempting idea and I will see if I can create a list like that too!

Cheers!

P.S. The shortened versions of the army lists of my opponents added in the first post.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#4 Post by Ferny »

Yay, new sm batreps coming soon :D. I like the list, lots of interesting things...am is back, eagle riders (x2)...

Quick q on Swedish - do eagles count as monsters re -4 for 2nd?

Also on list, what were your thoughts on 6 man champ reavers? From a chaff perspective 5 would give away fewer points, and as i know you wouldn't conga to get attacks allocated onto champ he's relegated to character blocking...is that his role, to free up eagle nobles to attack unit?

from my brief exploration of Swedish theory i think its the perfect environment for msu and ive completely changed my mind on book vs comp hammer, i really like the variety of armies you get and the balance of cheese vs points and the extra challenge to list building. I'm curious whether any of your choices were comp driven (eg return to your beloved earthing rod?)? Although i think msu handles Swedish well without playing the comp and the biggedt changes (eagles and am) are i think more or less comp neutral?

good luck with the tourney, looks like it ought to be fun (especially as it breaks your gaming drought).
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#5 Post by Hinge »

Sweet, anotehr SM Bat rep.

Looking forward to LM battle

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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

@ Ferny

Thanks!

Yes, 2nd ridden eagle counts as a monster and I applied required penalty in the list details.

I wanted to use 6 reavers with a champion precisely for the purpose of being able to charge and challenge lone characters so that they can still be steadfast and potentially slow down these individuals. But it is in addition to their regular roles and while they are more expensive nothing changed in that matter from my point of view.

Why do you think Swedish composition creates perfect environment for MSU?

No, I never make changes due to composition. I used the same lists in no comp tournaments and in those that had various composition scores. In fact, last year at Australian Masters I refused the chance to tweak my army list to bring it down to 14 from 15+ despite knowing that I will be capped at 14 regardless.

@ Hinge

Cheers! I am not surprised you are looking forward to that particular game. It is one of the armies you use and there is a Carnosaur there too! It was a very good game and against a much better player than I am. I believe some of Ulthuan members might know Anthony Spiers :)

Cheers!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#7 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:@ Ferny
I wanted to use 6 reavers with a champion precisely for the purpose of being able to charge and challenge lone characters so that they can still be steadfast and potentially slow down these individuals. But it is in addition to their regular roles and while they are more expensive nothing changed in that matter from my point of view.
Like it - a good adaptation I think. I've started running my helms 6-man with st and ch for similar reasons - I think I get a lot more utility from the extra 40pts spend than my min 5-man no command squads, so far I'm liking it.
Why do you think Swedish composition creates perfect environment for MSU?

No, I never make changes due to composition. I used the same lists in no comp tournaments and in those that had various composition scores. In fact, last year at Australian Masters I refused the chance to tweak my army list to bring it down to 14 from 15+ despite knowing that I will be capped at 14 regardless.
On the one side of the equation, MSU is a stable build under Swedish - you said yourself your default list scored 15+! A lot of other HE builds are hit hard: >18 man infantry units, BotWD, multiple magic users, mounted characters/bus, multiple monsters...all things which Swedish hits hard and all things which MSU tends not to be affected by.

On the other side of the equation, Swedish penalises min-max armies...so they can still be taken, but they better make damn sure they don't just win but win BIG. This means that you'll probably face fewer one-dimensional armies and your preferred playstyle fits the scoring system well, whereas other gamers may well struggle without their favourite toys which get comped hard (they can take some but not all).

That isn't to detract from your ability to play in an uncomped field - your record speaks for itself - but rather to note that Swedish should be a really positive environment for you to play in. Overall I really like the Swedish system :)
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#8 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

HI Ferny,

It really depends how that comp is applied. If you simply provide brackets some tough armies can be constructed anyway, some concessions might be required but in general they are not as soft as you may think and as always, it all depends on the player.

If there is some way of affecting the overall performance with the composition score then players, in general, feel more inclined to tweak their army lists to get a better composition score.

For comparison, check this years Australian Masters lists: Australian Masters Lists

I agree, however, with the conclusion that Swedish composition results in great variety of armies.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#9 Post by Iluvatar »

Hi Swordmaster!

It's great news that you're back to battle reporting - I missed those!
And it's even greater that you have found a little time for a tournament, after two months of WH inactivity! Happy for you.

I'll be following this closely, as always! :)

Cheers,
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#10 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks Iluvatar!

I am trying to prepare the deployment pictures for the game 1 at the moment so hopefully I will be able to post something soon.

Cheers!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Introduction

#11 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Game 1 - Dustin - Vampire Counts - Dawn Attack

In the first round of the tournament I was pitched against Vampire Counts led by Dustin. He chose a classical force with hordes of infantry, backed up by the characters and with an addition of a few support units. We also used Dawn Attack scenario as described in a rulebook. This scenario has a potential of affecting the initial plans significantly where the units may be not be deployed where the player really wanted them to be.

Let's have a look at Dustin's army list in more details:

Vampire Counts - Army List

Vampire Lord, Level 3, Shield, Heavy Armor, Talisman of Preservation, Ogre Blade, Other Trickster's Shard, Quickblood - Lore of Vampires
Necromancer, Level 1, Book of Arkhan - Lore of Vampires
Necromancer, Level 1, Staff of Damnation - Lore of Vampires
Vampire, Level 1, Additional Weapon, Armor of Destiny, Quickblood, Dread Knight - Lore of Shadow
Wight King, Battle Standard Bearer, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance

40 Ghouls
27 Skeletons, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves

40 Grave Guards, Musician, Banner of Barrows

Terrorgheist


Vampire Lord - General of the army and the highest level caster. With S7 and ASF he is definitely a dangerous opponent in close combat. However, he is on foot and has "only" 4++ ward save against S6 or higher strength attacks. That does not make him vulnerable but he is not perfectly safe either. If he stays in a unit the best way to get rid of him is by static combat result.

Necromancers - they provide good bound items and a chance to get the right spells, even multiple invocations are great for infantry based army as they help to replenish the inevitable casualties and soak up the damage.

Vampire - level 1 shadow is an interesting option here and I think the lore attribute can be very helpful if the Vampire Lord is in trouble or when his presence is required in a unit that is led by his thrall. Good fighter too and 4++ ward helps to deal with some higher strength attacks too.

Wight King - it is a solid character and his Killing Blow ability can be handy. The face that nearby troops crumble one less wound due to his presence does not sound as a significant advantage but that 1 wound less can be crucial.

Ghouls - their combat potential is significant due to poisonous and numerous attacks. Their main weakness is lack of armor, mitigated a little by T4. If attacking in full strength and with the Vampire among their ranks then can be very dangerous. I have learned, however, they can die quickly to aggressive charges from few directions at the same time, preferably without engaging from the front.

Dire Wolves - very good support but the fact there are only 2 packs of these makes them less dangerous. Ellyrian Reavers can comfortably hunt them down with their bows.

Skeletons - character bunker usually, I expected them to form a rearguard. The fact they can provide ranks is not to be underestimated as the attack from the flank with that unit can easily break any of my regiments. As any other infantry in VC army they are also vulnerable to multiple charges and Swordmasters or Spearelves can engage them one on one too.

Grave Guard - heavy hitters of the army. With banner of barrows they will hit on 3+ against rank and file and even my nobles as they are only WS6. S6 is enough of a threat but they have Killing Blow ability that can harm my characters (although Eagle Riders are immune). Should not be engaged from the front unless attacked from all sides. Preferably softened by magic and shooting in the meantime.

Terrorgheist - anti armor monster and priority for shooting and magic. Can devastate my small units all by itself thanks to scream attack and against infantry, thanks to thunderstomp. But engaged by cavalry and characters may not survive for long so I would need to attack it quickly or at least wound it to limit the scream potential.

In general it is the army that can deal significant damage but as it has fewer units and is infantry based I believe I had a good chance to win against them as I have tools to outmaneuver it. Magic will be hard to stop but if I deal with 3 support units (wolves and terrorgheist) fast I should be able to isolate the infantry blocks and mount multiple charges.

Deployment

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Before Vanguard

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After Vanguard

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Deployment of the armies after vanguard moves

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Legend

I apologize for not showing VC characters in their chosen colors in the legend. It is the first time I prepared one and it still takes time to create one (but I am sure I will find a way to do so in a more efficient way).

Respective wizards had the following spells:

Vampire Lord - Invocation of Nehek, Hellish Vigour, Rise Dead
Necromancer - VanHel's Danse Macabre
Necromancer - Invocation of Nehek
Vampire - Miasma

Archmage - Iceshard, Thunderbolt, Comet

I didn't roll a 6 and was not able to steal the initiative so Dustin proceeded to his turn 1!


Vampire Counts - Turn 1

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Undead horde move through the river ...

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... which happens to be the river of light!

The minions of the Vampire Lord were ordered forward and forward they moved. The shambling hordes entered the river without question, even when the waters started to glow with magical light. However, instead of banishing them back to the graves the power of the river seemed to invigorate restless dead even further.

Content with this turn of events, Vampire Lord started to rise more dead and a small pack of mindless corpses clawed their way out to the surface and started to shamble towards the Elven lines.

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Dragon Princes charge!

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Please note that noble N2 moved behind White Lions - apologies for the inaccuracy in a map

Spotting the opening in the enemy lines Dragon Princes charged through the zombies as if they were not there and kept the momentum of the attack to carry them into the flank of the pack of dire wolves. What is more, that seemingly reckless charge meant the nearby ghouls would be slowed down in their march. (Edit: I knew I would be charged the following turn but my aim was to destroy dire wolves and prevent ghouls from moving forward with the aid of their spells)

At the same time the rest of the Elven army kept moving around the flanks in their favorite double-pincer maneuver. All the shooters aimed at Terrorgheist ignoring closer targets but the beast was unharmed.

Vampire Counts - Turn 2

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Undead do not stop ...

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... but the coherence of their formation starts to collapse

Vampire Lord charges Dragon Princes, infuriated that mere mortals dare to oppose his plans. Before he strikes they manage to hunt down all the wolves from the pack. Vampire Lord kills three of the knights himself but remaining two do not yield despite being surrounded by the horde of ghouls.

Vampire Thrall is ordered to push forward at a double and his regiment moves even faster thanks to the aid of the necromantic magic. At the same time Terrorgheist flies to hunt down some knights on his own. Another three fall from the saddles when the piercing scream kills them outright but their companions are determined to pin the monster long enough for other troops to come to their aid.

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Setting up a trap

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Dragon Princes keep fighting!

Dragon Princes on the hill charge Terrorgheist and wound it badly although one of the knights is dragged down and only a standard bearer remains. His companion from the second Claw (Edit: This is a cool name for a unit of Dragon Princes borrowed from ET: Khaine book :)) miraculously survived the combat against Vampire Lord and stubbornly held the line all by himself!

On the left flank one of the Eagle Riders swooped down and skewered another pack of dire wolves. Finally, the Archmage called a comet and its shadow started to loom over the battlefield.

Vampire Counts - Turn 3

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Dragon Princes die ...

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... but their sacrifice will not be in vein

Vampire Thrall chases off pesky eagle but decided to make a stand where he was as it seemed that Elves positioned their units precisely and the momentum of the charge would have carried his regiment towards empty space.

More zombies were raised to stop Elven forces while last of the Dragon Princes died in heroic battle. They fought bravely and they will be avenged.

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Grave Guard is no more

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The power of coordinated multiple charge attack

No less than six units charges Grave Guard from three sides in perfect unison. Only archers are late to the party but it does not matter as the fate of the elite undead regiment is sealed. One of the champions from the fast cavalry sworn-hosts (Edit: Another cool name from ET: Khaine!) challenged Vampire Thrall and was mercilessly slain. But the charge was so powerful that only few Grave Guards hit back before all of them turned to dust, Vampire Thrall among them.

Another noble on his faithful feathery mount attacked wounded Terrorgheist. Nearby Spearelves rushed to aid him and together they destroyed the beast before it has a chance to strike back. Vampire Lord was truly furious.

Vampire Counts - Turn 4

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Vampire Lord attempts to attack ...

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... but fails

Vampire Lord orders his minions to attack Spearelves but that regiment withdraws to safety. Undead general redirects to the new target, White Lions, but ghouls are not fast enough to move in the waters and cannot reach their new target. In the meantime, the Necromancers use their powers to move away from the Elves and the area where the comet might fall.

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Elven infantry is unnaturally static

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Comet drops down - finally!

Fast Elven troops move swiftly to the right flank to intercept zombies. They are shot at but there are too many to finish them off with arrows alone.

Finally the comet drops down and it nicks the rearmost rank of ghoul horde. The rest of the group does not even notice.

Vampire Counts - Turn 5

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Solo charge by Vampire Lord ...

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... a risky move

Vampire Lord, frustrated with the slowness of his remaining troops, decided to attack all by himself but he too fails to reach White Lions! Necromancers, feeling safer without the comet as a threat, try to come back to the fight and close the distance to Elven regiment.

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Closing in for a kill again

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But will that be fast enough to catch ghouls?

Elven troops move at a double to catch ghouls abandoned by their master. Spearelves move towards ghouls as well but are able to avoid the attention of Vampire Lord. Elven Archmage tries to call upon the power of celestial forces and calls in the mighty thunderbolt but fails to harm the Vampire.

Vampire Counts - Turn 6

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Last attempt to attack fails!

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Will zombies slow down the Elves and safe ghouls?

Vampire Lord charges last time but White Lions withdraw to leave him in the waters alone. That maneuver confuses nearby Ellyrian Reavers who decided to withdraw as well. Vampire Lord orders ghouls to attack Spearelves but as he does not move fast enough they don't know what to do and stumble in the waters confused. (Edit: Dustin didn't roll enough for VL charge to move away and to open the path for ghouls to charge so they failed too)

In desperation, new group of Zombies is raised to stop Swordmasters from charging the rear of ghoul horde. Will that be enough though?

Outcasts - Turn 6

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Ghouls didn't escape the wrath of the Elven army

Spearelves and Eagle Riders charged ghouls from front and rear. At the same time Swordmasters broke through zombies and one of the regiments had enough of momentum to carry it into the ghouls rear too. With such a powerful charge no ghouls survived and another undead horde turned to dust.

As a last act of the battle, Elven Archmage one more called upon the power of the Thundrbolt but once again the dark gods saved Vampire Lord who escaped from the battlefield with just a handful of skeletons and his servants.

Turn-by-turn Summary

I was inspired by Hobby Fiend himself, Mr. Hoodling, to add this simple gif as a summary of the turns and I must say I really like that little "animation" of the battle evolution. I also wanted to thank Mr. Hoodling for his great help in tackling the challenge of exporting the legend describing the regiments from Battle Chronicler!

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Turn-by-turn battle evolution

After-battle thoughts

First of all I would like to thank Dustin for a great game and accepting the loss with a good grace. He did what he could but it seems that his magic failed him this game as he could not cast many spells when he needed them. A few better rolls for charges would see his ghouls and Vampire Lord in a better position too. River of Light didn't help him to move towards my lines faster either but fortunately he avoided any potential banishments.

I was obviously very happy with the outcome, even more so that I achieved the victory thanks to two good combats in particular. I was happy to destroy wolves and terrorgheist quickly.

I think Dustin was a little bit too eager with his Grave Guard as he pushed them towards my lines with the spell and that helped me to surround them while his other units were too far to help. I wonder if he could reform them better to be able to survive that combined charge.

Placing zombies to slow down my units was a very good idea but again, I wonder if different angling of these units would have not been possible so that any potential overrun didn't lead to attack on another target. As it was zombies didn't slow me down at all and maybe even helped me to reach more juicy targets.

I really liked the speed of Eagle Riders and thanks to that I was able to destroy terrorgheist, for example.

I made one big blunder during the game though. Somehow I understood the announcement during my turn 4 that we are running out of time. As it happened, there were plenty of it left to finish 6 turns but I didn't move my units thinking there is no need to do so anyway. As a result I was almost too late to catch the ghouls. Of course I was not able to move as fast as possible due to the comet that didn't want to fall down when I needed but still, that was a silly mistake. #-o

I hope you enjoyed the report and thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#12 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Query mate: HE T2, Princes charge down the hill into the Terrorgiest, did you lads remember the extra combat res for charging from a hill? I find people forget it a lot, and I've have to point it out.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#13 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

We didn't forget it Ele! It was actually funny moment because we both noticed it at the same time and put a special dice as a reminder. Indeed, these little things matter but sometime you forget them. I am sure people don't remember underdog rule either :)
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#14 Post by NonnoSte »

Hi Swordmaster,
Compliments on the victory.
It was a really well played game and an interesting, as well as entertaining battle report (the talkative format is really enjoyable in the coffe-break).

If not for that misunderstanding in turn 4, it looked like a flawless match.
It seemed your opponent was quite unprepared to face MSU and offered you a lot of opportunities, which you capitalised wonderfully.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#15 Post by Ferny »

Hi SM,

Congrats on the win. I thought from your tone when going through his list you'd have this in the bag...then when I saw the opening deployment map I could see why. Few, slow (without magical assistance) big blocks of crumbly undead ripe for the picking. Coupled with his little chaff and your fast units to either prevent the terrorghast from moving out or kill it when it does, perfect. And then the central deployment - you couldn't ask for better! None of that is to detract from your win, which was beautifully executed, but I can imagine you saw his list and deployment and you had to feel good about that game. I also had to scroll back a few turns to work out how your spears were coming back into the fight from his deployment corner - some nice board coverage there! Also, I was going to note that it looked like the final push looked a little strained, which felt odd given how much board control you had, but I think that'd be your timing comment which answers that - and you still made it in :mrgreen: !

I was actually thinking about how he could have played it differently because I'm planning to start up vamps after Christmas/thesis and one of the list types I'm toying with is similar to his, although I think I'd ditch the single slow t'bat and get more zombies and dogs for chaff. </digression>, but what I was really thinking about was how is he meant to get points from you? I agree that he advanced too quickly and got separated too easily, but if he took a corner and held a defensive line behind the river to prevent you getting multi-angle charges, he has next to no ranged threat to force you to him and you have the units and chaff to decide where and when to take him on even if he tries to charge out of his corner. Sure, he should be able to protect his own units better, but I'm curious what he could do offensively? I know its an unfair question to ask you as it isn't your army, but if you swapped armies (like at that other tourney you went to - sweet idea btw, love it), how would you tackle an MSU force like yours with his classic VC infantry army, especially if you were aiming for the win rather than draw?

PS I really like the slideshow at the end, please include those for the next report if you can, its a wonderful recap (reminds me of the review screen at the end of a really old computer game called CivIII).
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Thanks for comments, really appreciated as always!

@ NonnoSte

Thanks! I am glad I can contribute so nicely to coffee-breaks :)

I agree that it seemed that Dustin didn't have a prior experience with MSU army and deployed in a classic way for his force. It makes sense in general to set the units in the center so that they can pivot to each flank or advance through the middle, depending on the enemy deployment. But I am sure he will not do it again if I have an honor to play against him again in the future. My opponents learn fast and I promise we will come back to that topic with one of the reports from this tournament as one of my opponents made a very interesting observation.

@ Ferny

Thank you! It was not intentional to sound too sure about the outcome. I admit, however, that infantry based army with no ranged attacks leaves a lot of room for maneuver for my force. As I have just pointed out above it was not that surprising to see Dustin deploying in the center as it feels natural for his army. He also deployed first without seeing my force arrayed. Add to that the fact we had a river across the table and you see that he had a lot of things against him right from the start.

As to the final push - yes, I thought I might not be fast enough and I gambled a little with Spearelves when I decided to hold against Ghouls. Luckily for me Vampire Lord was not fast enough and Ghouls failed their charge. Although I need to add that maps are a little misleading as if you look at the pictures then you will see that Swordmasters are pretty close anyway and both Eagle Riders were fast enough to catch up with the enemy.

It is just a pity I didn't have a good plan to catch the Skeletons and they fled away so far thanks to VanHels. I still think this game shows that infantry is not as slow as you may think but need a good plan and decisiveness in executing.

It is a very good question about opposing army and I don't mind it at all. Being able to see the game from the point of view of the opponent is very important. It allows to anticipate his moves.

One way is to play defensively. But then it means fewer points earned as in this game Dustin didn't have any range attacks and even if he rolled Gaze of Nagash it is only a single spell. Hence, the example you referred to, when I played last year at the Masters and had, indeed, an opportunity to lead VC army, is a very good one. What is more, the round before that I played against the very same army, which like the one I faced here, was infantry based.

In that game we also played Dawn Attack by my opponents army ended up on a flank more than in the center. I would do something similar here with Dustin's army. Pick the flank and push hard with entire army forward. Even if he started in the central of the deployment zone it is perfectly fine to move with refused flank formation. Keep wolves as a rear guard and use their proximity to the Vampire Lord to march 18" to intercept and divert any regiments of mine. With their fast cavalry rule they can easily block 2 units of mine at the same time.

As Dustin had magic superiority he should have used his double VanHels to move his entire army forward much faster. And that is what happened a year ago. My opponent moved fast and hard and only when he made a similar mistake as Dustin did, i.e. over extended himself, I had the opportunity to charge and turn the tables.

If he denied me the flanks and rear attacks I would have to attack frontally. Very risky business as he has more attacks to hit back with and as soon as something stays he can resurrect them. I would have also used raise dead spell to re-direct approaching units. I think Dustin didn't use that asset well enough as overrun moves still allowed me to join combats I wanted.

Last but not least, Dustin had a chance to choose the sides. While the battlefield looks as if it is symmetric, it is not. I would have chosen the side I had simply because the river was further away. Thanks to that he could have approached faster (as he could have marched normally) and when charging through the river he moves without penalties. And fighting in the water that is magical can be as dangerous to my forces as it is to his.

Cheers!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#17 Post by Ferny »

Fantastic response, thanks. I agree with the (anti-) strategy you suggest, that sounds good. Could you link to the games you mention - I feel inspired to read them again in light of your comments.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#18 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#19 Post by JP_za »

Hi SM,
Well done on another win :)
Great to see some more reports, thanks for taking the time to put them together. The pictures are great and very clear.

I see you have gone for heavens on the archmage, interesting change from the loremaster. Did you miss the larger range of spells? I would hazard a guess that not having searing doom on hand could make dealing with steam tanks / dragons etc a bit more difficult. What motivated heavens?

I agree that this list is just favourable against yours. The big block of grave guard was in a bad place when he shot them forward with magic. It was a tough match for your opponent, especially when the dragon princes held for so long. Perhaps he could have held the TG more centrally in turn two as it was the best weapon he has against you.

Looking forward to the rest of them!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#20 Post by Iluvatar »

Ha, excellent, first report up!
Here we go for a reply turn by turn then...

Deployment
It seems your opponent deployed first, and more importantly that he was lucky with deployment rolls. He was able to deploy centrally, and all his units are covered by his Ld bubble - this is really crucial for him, seeing as he needs to stay grouped to be able to march. Imagine having the two hordes split at opposite ends of the battlefield, that would make the game much harder for you. Even having to hug to one flank due to one key unit being there would be to your advantage: that would give you more time to shoot at the support units and encircle the one unit you choose as a target. All in all, it's better for the game's interest!
You on the other hand seem to have suffered a lot from the deployment rolls. Suffered may be too negative, because in this matchup, and with your army, it doesn't seem a real issue. The only possible trouble is that your center can turn weak quite fast, with a single infantry unit. Still, the right flank strikes me: why deploy DPs behind the infantry? That will certainly slow them. And you obviously had to choose between having the infantry closer to the center, and keeping a good LoS for the eagle claw. That many units on this flank is a first, small challenge. Was deploying the eagle in the building an option?
Oh, and who chose the deployment sides? The river in the middle will sure cause trouble to Undead by preventing marching...

Vamps turn 1
It seems the Grave Guard are marching through the river? Probably thanks to the bridge - did they get affected by the River of Light then?
Oh, and I guess the DW2 vanguard should have revealed the river before turn 1, no?
And seeing the pictures, it seems DW1 should cope with a flank charge from your reavers...

Outcasts turn 1
Oh, no flank charge on the Wolves? Why? Possibly to avoid the small risk that the river of light is (I guess the reavers rode on the hill for their move...)...
And nice charge with dragon princes. They will be exposed, but you get rid of two enemy support units - that's always good for your swarming tactics.
Other units - pretty standard envelopment. I only hope the western infantry won't be late to the party.

Vamps turn 2
As you say, undead do not maintain their formation. Given your mobility and advantage in number of units, it can prove dangerous to let units be isolated...
And luckily, dragon princes hold. I guess there was no re-roll due to Bob being too far.
The Terrorgheist could be an issue, but at least it won't be able to march if you can't pin it...

Outcasts turn 2
Nice show of the dragon princes! The flaming ones could almost have killed the Terrorgheist with combat res: charge + downhill + standard puts you at +3, not counting the wounds you can do to him.
Having a last stand of the dragon prince in the other unit is probably just as great - having the ghouls reform and look at your spearelves could be quite bad... though it would leave the bunker exposed too.
About those direwolves... quite a shame actually, they were just offered to you. Almost too easy to pass on!
And of course, we can see what's coming for the grave guard, especially since Ghouls can't support them next turn...

Vamps turn 3
'Meet your fate, undead creatures! Time to go back to your graves!'
No way to avoid the trap...

Outcasts turn 3
All in! It must feel great to do such a charge! No surprise that only few undead survived to hit back, and then they all crumbled to dust. That also opens a path to the skeletons out there and their characters... A good number of points to gather if you get there!
The Terrorgheist going down is great as well!

Vamps turn 4
Only two units left (well, 3 in the end of the turn), that offers few options to the undead. The skeletons backing magically will probably save them from you infantry. So for the big win, you'll have to go for the ghouls and Vamp Lord.

Outcasts turn 4
Mmm, it seems you give up on killing any more units... It seems to me you could at least have tried to move against the ghouls, but maybe to comet threat to your units was what held you back. It seems you didn't get a lot from your magic this game, since it's the only mention of it until now...
And what happened with White Lions? Failed swift reform?

Vamps turn 5
Oh, that's a risky move for the vampire lord! Why charge alone? I see no gain in doing this - he's exposed to magic and shooting, he has fewer chances of breaking the white lions by him self, and even the river of light might be dangerous! (Though looking at the picture, it seems he's not in the river)

Outcasts turn 5
Ah, you finally try to go for the kill. It might be too late for that, unfortunately... though the vampire lord does limit the mobility of the ghoul horde. But you'll have only one combat phase to kill all the ghouls...
And lucky vampire! He avoids the thunderbolt and the eagle claw shooting!

Vamps turn 6
I was wondering you would flee with White Lions... You lose a unit to try to get more points in turn 6... Will the gambit pay off?

Outcasts turn 6
And the kill you get! It seemed to me the Swordmasters would be too far to overrun in the combat, but luckily they made it! The result is quite expected then...
The vampire lord getting away is good for the stories... he's defeated, but he'll be back! :)

Conclusion
A few answers to my questions there... Notably about your turn 4 and not moving! :)
It's good to know that Dustin and you had a good time! Your victory is well deserved since you outplayed him: he played with units, you played with an army. That game reminds me of your old 'task forces' - it seems here you had a group to handle the Terrorgheist, another to handle the Grave Guard, and then both forces joined in the center for the final kill. Well played!
And the Eagle Riders do deserve a special mention. They made a very good job, and flying on all the battlefield at the same time!

Congratulations for that victory, and thanks for the report!


Edit: and yet other answers in your reply to ferny. Good thinking there, I believe, especially about what your enemy could have done. It's nice to read what options others can have!
And I agree with you on side pickings - if he chose, he made a mistake with the river...
(I've always found it strange that if you want to play defensively, it's better to be more than 12' from a river than defending its banks...)
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#21 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi there,

Thanks a lot for very detailed comments! It is more than I expected! :)

@ JP_za

Thanks! I am glad I had a chance to attend the tournament as otherwise it is quite difficult to organize games for me at the moment.

I wanted to try Heavens out of curiosity. I have never tried it before and I thought some of the spells may help me in certain areas. For example, Harmonic Convergence is a great spell to improve the performance of White Lions or Swordmasters since they cannot re-roll to hit rolls anymore. Thunderbolt and Chainlightning may help to deal with fliers, also thanks to the lore attribute. And Comet might be a good option against defensive armies that want to castle up in the corner.

The good thing is that I like Loremaster and I know he works fine so I can always come back to this character. At the same time a small local tournament is a great opportunity to test things since there was no painted armies requirements and I had 5 games in a short time against different opponents to have a better insight.

I didn't blame Dustin for using his Terrorgheist the way he did. He was at full wounds at this moment so he had a good chance to potentially wipe out my whole unit of heavy cavalry. Infantry was also too far to harm it and even the noble might not have reached it in time. But as I explained earlier, I think he needed to be more patient and kept his units together as priority.

I will do my best to provide the reports at regular basis so stay tuned!

@ Iluvatar

Thanks a lot for turn-by-turn comments! Let me address them in the same order.

Deployment

That is correct. Dustin won the roll off for sides which meant he also had to deploy his army first but had much better odds at having first turn too. He definitely felt relieved when all his units showed up in the center and could benefit from the presence of Vampire Lord.

I didn't complain about my own deployment even if some units ended up on extreme flanks as this is where I wanted them to be in general. As to DP on right flank it is a consequence of the fact that we deploy units as follows: pick a unit, roll to see where it has to go, deploy it, pick another unit, repeat. It means that I had to place infantry on that flank first and didn't anticipate I might roll the same flank for cavalry too. It was not a big deal though in this case as they moved forward and opened a path for cavalry anyway.

We decided to treat the ruins this game as impassable terrain and not as buildings, hence no option for bolt thrower deployment there.

I think Dustin should have picked my side of the table if he wanted to advance as he did. But even if he wanted to play defensively, forcing my troops to move across it would have slowed me down.

Turn 1

We agreed to use the bridge and to allow even horde formation to cross it normally this time so GG had no problems with marching. There were two crossings through the river, both represented by islands and we agreed they didn't count as stepping into the river either so DW2 didn't check it for the rest of the army.

I didn't charge Wolves DW1 because they were already isolated and any unit they decided to attack would have easily win. Archers had their stand and shoot too so I wanted to use their arrows to try and wound Terrorgheist as against this beast every wound counts for the subsequent screams.

Also, moving units around allows me to put more pressure on the enemy and be in the good position to charge earlier.

Turn 2

That is correct, Dragon Princes held on their own. I risked here but I have noticed I need to do it to draw the attention of Terrorgheists. For me it was win-win situation. If it didn't take the bait I had more room to move and get deeper behind the opponents lines. I also had the odds in favor as with Ld9 I should have passed panic check more often than not. If I didn't I still had 3 units to hunt it down and as you said, it could not march anymore.

I indeed counted on static combat resolution to help me here. First, TG would be wounded meaning its screams in subsequent round are not as dangerous. Second, there was indeed a small change to destroy it on the charge. It didn't happen but was worth trying. I didn't expect another unit to hold so long but they would have slowed down the enemy or divide them more if they broke and Vampire chose to pursue. The direction of pursuit would take it away from GG.

Turn 3

I was very happy to execute that charge because it was done by Swordmasters and light cavalry. Both regiments are not considered useful for what I did. Swordmasters are constantly compared to Lions and many players don't rate them. Fast cavalry is not used in close combat as they are considered free points there. This is a good example that it does not have to be the case. Fast cavalry alone added significant amount of wounds due to re-rolls and S4. Even steeds added some. What is more only fast cavalry (apart from fliers) has enough speed to get to the rear. Swordmasters, on the other hand, had significantly more attacks than any other Elven unit. It is a combination of speed and sheer amount of attacks that allowed me to wipe out the unit of 30+ elite infantry in a single turn.

The success on the right flank was no less important. Getting rid of the powerful monster was worthy even at a cost of heavy cavalry.

Turn 4

As I have mentioned before I didn't give up on these units intentionally. What I should have done there was to try and stop VanHels and keep Skeletons closer. It would help me to catch them but also allow the comet to do some damage.

It is also correct observation, I reformed Lions and then failed their Ld test so they had to stay where they are.

Turn 5

I think Dustin was desperate to get some points and decided it would be a good idea to charge alone since his VL has M6 and better chance to catch Lions. He is also ASF meaning he has re-rolls to hit against them. We also played the rules for river in way that you roll for spells only when you enter it. If you are already there and keep moving nothing happens.

Turn 6

I decided it is better to flee with Lions than to allow Spears to be charged. If I held with Lions the Vampire would have opened the path to spears already. What is more, Spearelves are worth more points than Lions. On top of that, even being stubborn, they were only Ld8 and I might have been out of the BSB range. So, by staying with Lions I risked much more, i.e. losing two regiments and an opportunity to catch ghouls.

My gamble paid off and instead of losing two regiments I destroyed whole unit of the enemy. And that is a very significant difference as I didn't lose 300+ VP but earned 400VP instead. The overrun move was not that long but of course one still have to roll the dice and this time I succeeded. I was very happy also because I could have 2 meaningful combats in a single game and I showed the army has a potential to destroy main enemy units.

Conclusion

Thank you! I am very happy all things worked this time even despite me hesitating mid game. Indeed, having task forces to operate together and then joining their efforts was what helped me here a lot.

As to rivers not being as good defensive barriers as they should be I think it depends. Imagine you have to fight against Skaven, suddenly their ranks count for nothing and they might suffer from the effects of the river while your units are not affected.

Thanks again for very detailed comments!

Cheers!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 1 - 12.12

#22 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Game 2 - Anthony - Lizardmen - Battle Line

Game two was simple Battle Line and this time I had a chance to play against a warhammer veteran, Anthony and his unique Lizardmen. My pictures do not show these fantastic miniatures properly so trust my word that it was beautifully painted army. Anthony told me he bought it painted like that already and it was a pleasure to admire the look of it across the table.

As I said the army was unique and here are the details:

Lizardmen - Army List

Oldblood, Great Weapon, Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Carnosaur, Loping Stride, Blood Roar - 492
Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll - Lore of Beast - 90
Scar Veteran, Cold One, Great Weapon, BSB, Armor of Destiny - 179
Tetto'Ekko - 185 - Lore of Heavens
Skink Chief, Ripperdactyl, Light Armor, Javelin, Egg of Quango, Dragonbane Gem, Enchanted Shield - 124

21 Skink Cohort, Standard, Musician, Kroxigor - 175
21 Skink Cohort, Standard, Musician, Kroxigor - 175
21 Skink Cohort, Standard, Musician, Kroxigor - 175

12 Skink Skirmishers, Javelins, Shields - 84
6 Ripperdactyls - 240
6 Cold Ones, Musician, Standard - 224
3 Terradons - 105
Bastiladon with Solar Engine - 150

Swedish Comp: 15.9

This army has a lot of potential and can be very fast and hard hitting. It just emerged from the victorious fight against MSU Daemons with 3 units of Bloodcrushers and 2 units of Flies among others. So I knew I am up to a challenge for sure. Let's have a closer look at what it has among its ranks:

Oldblood - These guys are really tough. With basic T5 they are hard to wound even for my harder hitting regiments. In addition, the general of the Lizardmen army has 1+ armor save against shooting, 2+ against close combat attacks, re-rollable in both cases and 4+ ward on top of that. Not to mention 2++ against flaming attacks. With S7 due to great weapon and Predatory Fighter special rule that character alone can do a lot of damage. His mount, however, is also very dangerous. Carnosaur is not often seen on the battle field but it is quite fast beast and with S7 and D3 wounds rule it can do a lot of damage too. Might be more vulnerable to other attacks though so it would be a good idea to try and take a few wounds from it. Even if I could kill the Carnosaur but not Oldblood (so no points for it) I would do it as pedestrian Oldblood is much easier to contain.

Frenzy might be a way to divert it from chosen prey but I would need to allow it to go into combat in the first place. On the other hand, Bloodroar means taking terror tests on 3d6 and discarding the lowest which means it can scare away some units before they even fight.

Scar Veteran - Another tough character to deal with as I had an opportunity to learn many times, not so long ago when playing against Hinge's Three Amigos for example. He is not as well protected as Oldblood but his high toughness, good armor and ward save can see him through many attacks. As he is vulnerable to single shots from bolt throwers, however, I expected him to join cold ones rather than running solo.

Tetto'ekko - boy but I hate this guy :) His ability to allow d3 units to vanguard is a massive advantage. This particular army then has a potential to vanguard up to 6 regiments! Now that is huge. In addition, that little bugger is also Loremaster of Heavens that is a powerful weapon against my units. Also the fact I had two flying characters made it more dangerous. Would be great to hunt him down but I expected a lot of trouble from this one.

Skink Priest - probably just a Dispel Scroll carrier but Wyssan Wildform can transform formidable Cold One Cavalry into even more dangerous unit.

Skink Chief - quite annoying character, mainly due to his magical Egg. He can of course inflict some damage on his own as he is quite well protected. The fact there are two units of fast cavalry to hide behind may make the task to hunt him down with shooting more difficult but I hoped to use Heavens Magic to good effect here.

Skink Cohorts - it is actually a very interesting type of a unit. It is quite fragile but it can be crucial in dealing wounds to something big but not well protected thanks to poisonous javelins. These weapons are also good thanks to the fact they don't have penalty to hit for movement and you can always stand and shoot with them. Their 5+ armor and 6++ parry can be handy too. On top of that they cause fear due to the presence of Kroxigor that also provides some nice S7 attacks to the regiment. Far from invincible they provide nice options for shooting and combat too.

Skink Skirmishers - More maneuverable version of the Cohort without the Kroxigor so purely for some shooting and diverting activities.

Ripperdactyls - They can hit very hard, in particular against nominated target with d3 frenzy and re-rolls to hit. S4 and killing blow is also powerful combination. In addition there are 6 of them and with skirmishing formation it will not be that easy to shoot them down while they still have enough attacks left to hurt my units. At the same time they are vulnerable enough and each one down makes life easier. They also have big footprint that makes it difficult to find landing zone for them. I think I would have preferred two units instead of one big. Again, flying target should be perfect for heavens magic. The combination of Frenzy and Ld5 even with coldblooded rule can create an opportunity to draw them out of the formation.

Cold One Cavalry - as I have learned before these guys can comfortable take the charge from any of my units and hit back hard. They add nicely to the range of hard hitting units, they are quite fast too. With addition of BSB they can be even more dangerous but fortunately, they don't fly so there is a way to stop them.

Terradons - not hitting as hard as ripperdactyls they are more controllable though. And can be very good at destroying war machines or finishing off stragglers. Not a priority among other targets but I would try to hunt them down if possible.

Bastiladon - I treat them as Lizardmen version of a chariot. It is well armored and while it does not hit hard on its own the solar engine makes it more dangerous. I don't like its random effect it has on the target. In general, it has potential to even destroy any of my units and that takes away precious dispel dice. Fortunately nobles, elite infantry or heavy cavalry all have a chance to hunt it down.

This army hits hard, is very fast but can be fragile. I guess the good option would be to go aggressively against skinks as that reduces the amount of units where tetto'ekko can hide. It also gives away some points and I need to earn some in the meantime as I know I would lose a few units fast.

Deployment

Image
Deployment of both armies

Image
Before vanguard

Image
After Vanguard

As expected, skin priest chose Wyssan's Wildform while Elven Archmage had: Convergence, Curse, Thunderbolt, Chainlightning

Lizardmen deployed first so with +1 to roll off they got their first turn. It is also worth noting that Spearelves got the attention of Ripperdactyls and they would have extra frenzy against this particular Elven unit.

Lizardmen - Turn 1

Image
Lizardmen advance fast

Image
Especially on the Western flank

Taking advantage of massive vanguard moves, Lizardmen army seized the initiative and rushed on the Western flank, pressing hard against Elven infantry deployed there. Fortunately for Elves, magical powers of Tetto'Ekko revealed themselves only in the form of predicting where his units should go and no additional celestial object hit the battle field.

In the center, skink cohort took advantage of the opening in the Elven battle line and finished off a crew of a eagle claw before they managed to shoot their deadly bolts.

Outcasts - Turn 1

Image
Fast cavalry tries to delay Lizardmen advance

Image
Heavy cavalry counter-attacks

Dragon Princes didn't wait any longer and decided to charge Skink cohort. Their main target was huge Kroxigor and they killed the beast before it managed to swing its huge weapon. A few more skinks were trampled and the unit broke only to be run down by elven knights. The momentum of the charge took them far enough to avoid the attention of nearby bastiladon too.

Their companions baited another cohort so that they could take the charge and hold long enough to other regiments to counter attack. On the opposite flank light cavalry tried to block Carnosaur while infantry re-arranged their formation before inevitable attack.

Lizardmen - Turn 2

Image

Image

The powerful attack of Lizardmen shock troops hit home. Reavers were unable to keep their horses still when Carnosaur roared and fled to safety, further chased down by skink chief. That opened the path to Spearelves who bravely held their formation. Unfortunately, the sacrifice of a captain went for nothing as Ripperdactyls themselves went berserk and killed many Elves and survivors broke to be run down by both, Lizardmen fast cavalry and their general. (Edit: 3d6 Terror test is a wonderful weapon. Then rolling well on d3 for special frenzy combined with re-rolls to hit ensured I lost the rank and was not steadfast anymore. I just wish I rolled better to kill more than 1.5 ripperdactyl with 16 attacks of mine.)

The situation was not better on the East. Dragon Princes took the charge as planned but could not hit the skinks at all and the Kroxigor unhorsed 3 knights with a single blow of his axe. It was too much for remaining knights and they fled the battle while cohort followed them in pursuit.

That was hard blow for Elves as not only they lost 3 regiments but the enemy were temporarily out of the battle field and could not have been counter attacked properly.

Outcasts - Turn 2

Image
Elves fight back

Image
Advance through the weak center

Using the opportunity that impetus Lizardmen troops opened, the Elves attack weaker Lizardmen center and start the hunt for Tetto'Ekko. Swordmasters smash skirmishers but are unable to catch them. The rest of the units reposition themselves and prepare counter attack.

Shooting takes life of a few skinks guarding Tetto'ekko but a single bolt from eagle claw misses its target - skink chief on ripperdactyl.

Lizardmen - Turn 3

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Frenzied Lizardmen are back

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Elves seem to be surrounded

General of the Lizardmen army was back and some of his troops returned too. The rest of the army started surrounding of the Elven troops from all sides. Terradons killed all but 1 Swordmaster with their rocks. But other than that shooting and magic are uneventful and Elves are going to have their chance to fight their way through the encirclement. However, Tetto'Ekko and skink priest managed to abandon their skink cohort just in time to avoid combat.

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Break through

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Coordinated attack against two Lizardmen units

Dragon Princes and Lions charge from both sides and skink cohort does not stand a chance. Survivors are quickly caught in pursuit, even if that means the knights lost 2 of their number due to treacherous terrain. That stopped their pursuit just in front of Tett'Ekko hiding in the forest.

Swordmasters, led by BSB charged bastiladon, that was also attacked from the rear by Star Lance wielding Noble and between these the huge beast was killed before it had a chance to fight back. Looked like Elves broke through.

In the meantime, archers killed another 2 ripperdactyls but Archmage once more failed to call upon the power of the Thunder (Edit: Twice in a row I failed to cast Thundrebolt on 3 dice with level 4. Small consolation was that Tetto'Eko failed his attempt once too. I also made a mistake and forgot to move Bladelord, I will regret it soon.)

Lizardmen - Turn 4

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Lizardmen keep pressing

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Finally Tetto'Ekko casts some spells!

Brave eagle holds despite terrifying roars of the Carnosaur and dies buying some time for the Elves. Rperdactyls go for easy target and kill eagle claw remaining crew and overrun into nearby Reavers.

Skink chieftain charges Swordmasters but they retreat only to enter the danger zone and get shot by poisonous javelins.

Tetto'ekko finally casts some spells. First, he destroys Dragon Princes and nearby Lions retreat to the forest and then he summons his power to hurt eagle rider who barely survives. (Edit: That 3rd wound thanks to being mounted on an eagle saved him)

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Elves attempt to charge again

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But Lizardmen flee

Tetto'ekko does not want to meet Elven noble face to face and flees. Nearby terradons follow the same logic and Elven hero has no one to fight against.

Magic and shooting also fail to harm exposed skink chief. Quite disappointing turn of events for Elves.

Lizardmen - Turn 5

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Last attacks by Lizardmen

Cold Ones, having the first opportunity to charge anyone, tried to catch Elven Noble but he was too swift for them. However, that evasive maneuver brought him into the charge arc of the skink chief and Elven Noble had to flee off the table.

On the other hand, cowardly Tetto'Ekko failed to rally and kept running away. Also Ripperdactyls lost their combat and reavers run them down to avenge their companions. Unfortunately for Elves, they lost their Swordmasters to some more poisonous javelins.

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Last counter attack

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But Elves fail to reach their targets

Wounded Elven noble tries to perform heroic act and attacks an exposed flank of the Cold One cavalry but he fails to reach them in time. White Lions chase off Tetto'Ekko from the battle field and try to assault the tower but again fatigue kicks in and they cannot perform that last counter attack.

With that Elves re-group and withdraw. They lost that battle but are far from broken and they bled Lizardmen too.

Turn-by-turn summary

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Turn-by turn animation

After-battle thoughts

When we calculated the points it was exactly 400VP in Anthony favor. With extra 75VP due to comp difference he got well deserved 12-8 victory. I expected heavier loss after turn 2 assault so it was good to take as many points from that game as possible.

It was a good battle with plenty of movement and lots of combats but I believe I could have played it better. As always, I start with the deployment.

I had a chance to deploy my heavy cavalry and characters knowing where Lizardmen army is and where it can go with vanguard moves. I decided to deploy them on my right flank but I wonder if that was not a mistake. Simply because infantry forces had no means to intercept fast Lizardmen on the left flank. Single unit of Dragon Princes could threat these troops. It would not be easy but at least I might have slowed down their advance.

I didn't want to position my eagle riders there so that it is not easy to cast spells on them as even with their respectable armor d6 S4 can harm them eventually.

I considered charging Carnosaur with reavers. Champion would challenge, die to Carnosaur and I might hold on steadfast. Next round, if lucky, there would be a survivor to pursue by now frenzied Carno.

I don't think exposing Dragon Princes on the right flank was a mistake but failing Ld9 fear check definitely can happen and that ruined my plan. I thought that with 10 attacks from knights and 5 from horses I had a good chance to nullify any damage I would be taking from skinks. But it didn't happen this time so I guess I should have moved my units there more carefully and try to press the enemy with the fact I had longer charge distance.

I missed that Gleaming Pennant on Lions when they failed panic check but bigger problem was I forgot my Bladelord. I should have positioned him to block Cold Ones. As a result they were in a position to charge my Noble. I think I would have fled again as otherwise, if they made it, I would have lost a chance to get their flank with Star Lance Noble. I really wish that charge hit home (as it was not that unlikely one to get, I needed 7-8 on swiftstride I think) and that would have been interesting for sure.

I was totally disappointed with my magic. I had many flying targets, perfect for Heavens magic, and could do nothing. I guess some dice rolling practice is needed. :) Shooting also could have done more but I deployed eagle claws too forward and skinks could shoot at them turn one. In fact, I think I should have chosen the other side of the table but somehow I decided to take this one when making the decision. The reason is the small hill was as good for eagle claws but I could have defended it better.

On the bright side I am happy I took the fight to the enemy and killed a few of his units anyway. It seems it could have been a closer game if not for the mistakes I made but the good thing is I can try to avoid them next time.

I hope you enjoyed the report!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 2 - Deployment

#23 Post by Lord Anathir »

In my short time playing lizards cohorts were by far my favorite unit. They might struggle against dp though.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 2 - Deployment

#24 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Game 2 updated!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 2 - 17.12

#25 Post by Hinge »

Well played on both parts. Generally like the deployment strategy but have nit picks on both sides.

LM- I think I would have started the skink chief in one of the skrox units. With Vanguard from Tetto, he still would have started forward and would have been closer to your line. He would have been protected from both shooting and magic until he was ready to hop/charge out. The Scar Vet cowboy could have done the same and give some serious killing power to protect from the DP. Though placing in the CO unit is solid.

I also think the Cold one unit was played too cautiously. He should have been pressing harder since the Rippers and Carno were doing the same. Finally I may have chosen your archers to “toad” figuring your Arch Mage would go in there.

HE-I thought the RBTs were too exposed and indeed one was shot down quickly. Either spread out (so less susceptible to comet) or park one of the DP units in front to provide hard cover on first turn (charge off any units if you get the first turn).

Game play-

In general I thought you played well. Once the left flank collapsed, pushing forward was the sound decision. This was aided by the apparent slowness of the CO unit. My suggestions center around early game.

Turn 1- I keep going over in my head on whether charging the carno with the Reavers would have been a good idea or not. I think it would have been. It would have been easy for the LM player to make sure there were no Reavers left to pursue by charging the Skink chief, terradons, and/or CO into the combat the next turn. However, it would hold up the Carno for a turn if you make your steadfast test. Failing would have put him right where he ended up anyways. I think the presence of Blood Roar tips the decision (steadfast on 2 dice is better then terror on 3). You could have set up the Spears, Swordmasters, and Lions for counter charges on your next turn to take advantage of holding for a turn.

Using the Reavers to redirect means you have to pass a terror test and opens you up to the LM player finishing the Reavers off on his turn (10+ attacks!) and then reforming rather then being forced to overrun.

However, upon deciding to attempt to redirect, I think you should have backed the Spears against the table edge, may be even flattening out a little to make the charge as long as possible so you do not get combo charged like you did.

I am not happy with you exposing the right DP the way you did. I felt there was no reason to, especially with your longer charge distance. I would have stayed back (though close enough for a charge the next turn) and dared the LM player to move that unit forward.

Final nit pick, Turn 2 the DP1 could have been angled better to make it difficult for Tetto to escape.

As I said, I think you played well (other then failing to move the Bladelord as you identified) once the flank collapsed so do not have any feedback after turn 2.

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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 2 - 17.12

#26 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Hinge,

Thanks a lot for your comments! It is great to get your feedback as you play with both armies so that you can spot a lot based on your enormous experience with them.

I think Anthony didn't consider joining chief to infantry unit because his first attempt was to do so with riperdactyls. He is coming back to the game after a few years break and he missed the rule that does not allow flying units to be joined by characters. When updated on that I think he might have understood it as if such characters cannot be part of any other regiment.

As to Cold Ones, in order to use them in a more aggressive way I think they would need to be in another place. Maybe closer to the center then? Deployed on extreme flank as they were they were also slowed down by the chief who failed his charge.

What do you think about deploying one DP regiment on the left flank in order to intercept the lizardmen fliers?

It is a very good point about reavers. I believe I didn't factor blood roar properly as indeed, the chances to fail terror test without bsb nearby are significant.

Just a comment on combined charge. Carno added a single wound to the combat because it was challenged. Carno killed the champ for 1 wound and Oldblood didn't strike at all as he had great weapon. The massive damage was done by rippers who got maximum number of attacks extra due to super frenzy.

I guess it was too risky in the end to expose DP as I did. My assumption was that if I did that I would have achieved the following:
- force my opponent to charge
- be in a better position to attack if he didn't

I counted on the fast that I would hit on 3+ with re-rolls and then wound on 3+ again. They would have 5+/6++ save from that. Then I had 4+/3+ respectively from the steeds. I really thought I can get a good combat result from that fight but it seems I was wrong and I underestimated what they can do, especially with Kroxigor among them.

Yes, I didn't position another unit of DP well to keep Tetto'Ekko in their line of sight. In fact, I think I haven't used flying nobles well enough either and positioning them to see enough targets is crucial too. They have great speed and they can add their combat potential to many places but I need to make it possible for them in the first place. Much to learn.

Thanks for kind words, it was hard to fight back after turn 2 blow but I am glad I did as it minimized the margin of defeat.

Cheers!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 2 - 17.12

#27 Post by Hinge »

Having played both Skink Cohorts and Skrox, I find they are often underestimated, especially when there is a krox present. Perhaps why I would want to take them on the charge.

I did not catch the failed charge by the chief. Speaks to the caution needed to avoid units getting in each others way when overloading a flank, especially when terrain can constrict an advance (something I have been guilty of btw). I don’t mind where they were deployed, though the other spot would be dead center. Problem is I don’t know when you dropped those RBTs. He wants to avoid a flank shot.

Deployment questions are always tricky beyond comments on the strategy as we often don’t know the order of the drops. Flyers are tough to counter because of their mobility, especially when they can vanguard to the side prior to the game. They literally could have moved 32” away from the left before you got to move. Also, with the weight of numbers the LM had on that side, odds are that they may well have ended up in that casualty pile as well. I still think the better place would have been in front of the hill to protect the shooting base.

Looking forward to the next Bat Rep

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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 2 - 17.12

#28 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Hinge,

Thanks a lot for the replies! Unfortunately, I can't recall the exact order of the drops and that is crucial for the discussion. I indeed tried to keep bolt throwers for later but can't recall if I positioned them after or before Cold Ones. I will do my best to try and make more notes during the games to provide that information. That is why I sometimes favor UB as you can copy-paste chat and have all the information there.

Please, be patient with the next report, I didn't have time to even start it but will do my best to do so soon.

Thanks!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 2 - 17.12

#29 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Game 3 - David - High Elves - Meeting Engagement

In the game 3 I had a pleasure to meet David for the first time and he brought his trusty High Elves to the tournament. He decided to take some solid choices with a cavalry Prince unit as a hammer and Phoenix Guard, Caradryan and High Magic as anvil. He had some nice support of fast cavalry and ranged attacks. However, we were playing Meeting Engagement that in addition to a diagonal deployment some of the units might end up in reserves. If that happened to fast troops, that may be an advantage but if you rolled a 1 for a war machine that is obviously a waste.

Let's have look at David's list in more details then:

High Elves - Army List

Archmage, Level 4 Wizard, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation - High Magic
Prince (General), Dragon Armour, Elven Steed with Barding, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade

Caradryan
Mage, Elven Steed , Level 2 Wizard, Ironcurse Icon, Obsidian Lodestone - High Magic
Noble (BSB), Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Shield, Elven Steed with Barding, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Luckstone, Potion of Foolhardiness

5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows, Spears, Musician
12 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command

18 Phoenix Guards, Full Command, Razor Banner

2 x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
15 Sisters of Avelorn, Champion

Swedish Comp: 12.8

Archmage - Fairly standard Archmage, with 4++ ward save, dispel scroll and using high magic mainly to support his Phoenix Guard bodyguards with magic so they can have 3++. He can still be vulnerable in combat so there might be a chance to hunt him down even if PG stays unharmed.

Prince - famous cavalry prince created by Seredain himself. 1+ re-rollable save, 4 S7 attacks although no re-rolls against some of my troops/heroes. Still a powerful character that can also benefit from the Shield of Saphery thanks to dragon armor 6++ and the presence of level 2 in his unit. He will be hard to get as he will have Silver Helms to protect him. However, if I managed to reduce the number of knights significantly with shooting and magic I might have a chance to overwhelm his regiment and maybe win due to static combat resolution. The good thing was that due to the presence of my own bolt thrower I could count on him staying with his regiment more often than not, thus limiting his area of influence.

Caradryan - I have never had a chance to play against this character before (or at least I don't recall it now). He provides nice magic resistance to his unit but it feels a little overkill due to the fact they are already at 4++ and can have nice magic influence. His combat potential is somewhat reduced by the fact that his attack are flaming but against some monsters he can be very useful. Obviously, his special rule may help to kill powerful characters as well. As an infantry model can be avoided easier and again, as any other character, he is vulnerable to shooting if alone.

Mage - his job is to add protection to Silver Helms and cavalry characters. Magic resistance combines nicely with 6++ ward save from dragon armor. It can be further improved by high magic too. With the Archmage both wizards have a nice selection of spells that can help the army in so many ways, from extra movement to better performance in shooting and combat to some handy spells against hordes and characters alike.

Noble (BSB) - a nice combination of reasonable protection with hard hitting abilities to aid his Prince. Together they can pack 7-8 S7 attacks on the charge and that alone can be powerful blow. Still well equipped to fight in subsequent rounds of combat due to Great Weapon. If committed to the fight, however, he may go down eventually so the decision to charge has to be careful one.

Reavers - Being a great fan of fast cavalry, I like the presence of these units. All of them have bows so that the fight between support troops will not be easy. They are also a priority for me as I cannot allow any support troops to interfere with my movement. But with my own fast cavalry, shooting and magical ranged attacks I felt prepared to commit to that fight.

Silver Helms - Often considered just a delivery system they can hit hard against my units too. In particular White Lions and Swordmasters. On the other hand they form quite a big and cumbersome regiment, easily blocked by fast troops so I thought I might have a chance to slow it down until I was ready for to engage or keep them chasing shadows for the whole game.

Phoenix Guard - Another unit I had no chance to defeat in straight fight. Fortunately, I didn't plan to do so! I was confident that if I engaged it from both flanks and possible rear and kept them isolated I can eventually grind them down. The question was can I move my units fast enough to surround them and keep them isolated. I counted on the fact that this army needs to attack to get points thus allowing me to cover the distance faster. At the same time, there were only 2 combat units so isolating one at least should be possible.

Eagle Claws - always a threat, I needed to get to them fast. As I needed my fast cavalry to deal with their counterparts as well I wanted to add heavy cavalry to the equation and depending on the situation, the knights would attack enemy reavers or go after bolt throwers. Of course they are also great targets for the magic missiles so I wanted to use magic to good effect here too. It was important to get rid of the bolt throwers fast so that I could use my eagle riders freely.

Sisters - very good addition to ranged attacks and these ladies can cripple any of my units all by themselves so I had to find a way to neutralize them too. I wanted to use the fact they are short ranged to my advantage and engage them in shooting contest with the archers if possible. I had also an option to attack them with Dragon Princes under right circumstances.

It was a difficult match up because the points were well protected here and I had to deal with multiple threats really fast. In addition we had a river across the table that slowed down any progress (I ended up on the same table as game 1).

Deployment

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Deployment of both armies after vanguard moves

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This time Outcasts are deployed North

Please, note that David's Archmage and one host of Reavers ended up in reserves. On my side, BSB and a claw of Dragon Princes didn't enter the battle with the rest of the army.

Respective wizards had following spells:

Archmage - Soul Quench, Walk Between Worlds, Arcane Unforging, Fiery Convocation
Mage - Soul Quench, Hand of Glory

Heavens Archmage - Windblast, Curse, Thunderbolt, Chainlightning

(Edit: I am not sure about Windblast as I would have changed it for Iceshard even if I rolled no doubles for spells but that is what I had in my notes. Maybe I forgot to change it?)

I tried to steal the initiative but didn't roll a 6 to do so and David had the first turn!

High Elves - Turn 1

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High Elves cross their Rubicon

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Phoenix Guard reforms for Archmage arrival

The Prince ordered his knights forward and they crossed the river and marched towards the Outcasts. On the opposite flank Phoenix Guard formed a single rank to allow Archmage to join them as soon as he shows up. With only level 2 able to cast spells magic was uneventful. As Sisters were out of range they simply marched forward to be able to shoot at their enemies later.

(Edit: David realized he slightly misplaced his PG when he rolled a 1 for the Archmage. They were too far from the table edge to allow him to join their ranks with only 5" movement. Hence, David decided to reform them in a single rank so that he can jump there as soon as he shows up.)

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Outcasts counter attack

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Enemy flank in trouble

Outcasts fast cavalry moves towards their counterparts and with the help of other shooters one unit of enemy light horse is destroyed. Magic and the rest of the shooting is responsible for the destruction of the nearby eagle claw and both events result in the decision to withdraw made by Caradryan himself. His job was to protect the Archmage and he decided to abandon exposed position and move beyond the nearby ruins for extra protection. That, however, gave up the flank and Outcasts where ready to exploit the opening.

On the other bank Spearelves and White Lions moved back to put more distance between themselves and approaching cavalry.

High Elves - Turn 2

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Has cavalry prince hesitated?

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Silver Helms approach cautiously

Confident that the new position is safe, Phoenix Guard stops and reforms while the Archmage finally joins their ranks. Being late to the party means he cannot contribute to the battle just yet as his spells are out of range.

On the other hand, Sisters and remaining bolt thrower take aim at the Archers and shooting contest begins. Cavalry Prince does not risk long charge as he expected that Spearelves or White Lions would simply flee from his knights and moves forward cautiously.

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Reavers moving fast into the gap in High Elves formation

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Silver Helms under deadly fire

Seeing the wide opening in the enemy formation, both hosts of Reavers speed towards the gap intending to threaten remaining enemy eagle claw.

At the same time, Spearelves and White Lions move back towards the ruins, planning to use them as protection against powerful foe. They didn't take into account what happened next though. The effort of Archmage and eagle claw crews saw no less than 9 Silver Helms dead. Two single bolts were responsible for unhorsing 6 proud knights. Suddenly, the most powerful enemy unit received a powerful blow.

High Elves - Turn 3

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Cavalry Prince decided to move back

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Phoenix Guard blocks the gap

Cavalry Prince decided it is now too risky to press forward as his potential targets were still far away and he didn't want to experience another round of shooting as he has just received. He and his officers moved to the nearby host of reavers while remaining 3 silver helms reformed towards the river crossing.

Phoenix Guard moved to block the path for enemy light cavalry to move through. Magic assistance was required to move them swiftly enough but they covered the gap in army formation. It seemed like eagle claw managed to defend itself from another threat too, when some enemy knights were killed and the rest panicked.

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Advancing on both flanks

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Outcasts surround their enemies as many times before

Reavers move around the ruins to find a new path to the lone eagle claw but the fact the machine is not engaged yet is not a good sign. Meanwhile, units on both flanks move forward and start surrounding the enemy.

High Elves - Turn 4

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High Elves advance

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Two eagles down!

(Edit: Please note I made a mistake with a map and that the Prince joined Sisters in turn 3)

Phoenix Guard advanced and cavalry reformed but it was level 2 and eagle claw that did the damage. First, Soul Quench killed great eagle and then a single bolt sailed through the air to hit eagle rider. It did exactly 3 wounds on it and Outcast hero was shot down from the skies.

Outcasts - Turn 4

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The grip tightens

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Outcasts are all around the enemy now

Ellyrian reavers avenge the eagle rider and destroy enemy bolt thrower. The rest of the regiments move to positions to charge the foe from different directions while keeping Phoenix Guard isolated.

Shooting (Edit: Could have been magic too) finished off proud Silver Helms, now abandoned by their leaders. Also Sisters suffer
some damage from the enemy shooters.

High Elves - Turn 5

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High Elves move forward

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But the Prince abandons his troops again

All units move forward. BSB and Mage form a unit on their own while reavers move towards enemy bolt thrower. Only the Prince abandons his troops again and withdraws to the safety of nearby ruins.

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Last act

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Only Phoenix Guard remained

Outcasts launched their attack. Cavalry charged unprotected Sisters and though they fought bravely they could not stand to the enemy attack in the open, broke and were run down.

Exposed BSB and Mage were attacked by Spearelves. Bob the BSB gave challenged his counterpart to a personal challenge but enemy broke and the standard was captured. The mage escaped for now though. Nearby reavers were mercilessly shot down too.

Only Phoenix Guard remained intact at this stage and only thanks to the fact the night surprised both sides that Cavalry Prince managed to lead the survivors to the safety.

Turn-by-turn summary

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Turn-by-turn animation

After-battle thoughts

I was very happy I managed to pull out solid, 17-3 victory this game as it was not easy to get points from this army. It was a very pleasant game and David is a very nice opponent so it is a pity we run out of time to play one more turn. I hope he had a good time despite the defeat. Here are some more comments on this battle, in no particular order:

In the case of scenarios where the enemy has to deploy first I find it advantageous to be able to see their exact army formation. I think David would have benefited more with more compact battle line. For example, if his BSB was closer to PG they would have most likely passed their panic check on a re-roll. Instead, they were out of action for some time, Archmage could not cast many spells and they were kind of late to the party.

Separating units helped me to surround them and while significant amount of damage was done with ranged attacks, the fact the units were not supporting each other also helped to finish the isolated regiments.

I wonder if I could move eagle riders in a more efficient way as they didn't do much this game apart from possibly putting some pressure. At the same time when I exposed them one of them got shot anyway. They definitely need some better protection even if it is a one use only.

I keep wondering if it was a good decision to slow down the advance of Silver Helms and then to completely abandon the attack. If David pressed forward aggressively even after such powerful attack he could have charged some of my units. At the same time I still could have fled. Maybe then he should have used his reavers as a living shield in the first place? But then I could use my archers to kill them and still have a clear path to Silver Helms with bolt throwers.

While happy that I managed to stall the advance and destroy the knights as well as support troops I wonder what I could have done better to at least give myself a chance to engage Phoenix Guard. In a way the fact they fled helped them to avoid being surrounded as I needed my infantry to work with cavalry to be able to create favorable combat. However, looking at a diagram from turn 5 I can see a potential for last turn charge if we played 6 turns. Would that be enough to win and break PG is of course a different question. However, I didn't move many regiments as we were running out of time. What I would do is the following:

- move Swordmasters S1 to the flank of PG so that they cannot be charged
- withdraw Archer to be able to flee from PG charge
- move S2 towards the river bank to be ready to charge too
- reform DP1 and N1 to face PG from different directions as well
- use ER1 to block the prince
- use remaining shooting (and magic) for thinning down PG

But that is for another time to find out :)

Thanks for reading and I hope you enjoyed the report!

Cheers!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 3 - deployment

#30 Post by Galdor »

Hi SM. I really like the style of your battle reports! Having both photos of the table and the Battle Chronicler images really helps the reader follow what's going on. I'm going to try and learn to use BC for mine. I look forward to reading about what happened vs High Elves in your current report.
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