HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

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RE.Lee
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 5 - 31.12

#61 Post by RE.Lee »

Good win! Isolating the Ghoul unit was well done - the Vargheists and Terrorgheist were swiftly dealt with and this sealed the fate of the vamp lord.
cheers, Lee

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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 5 - 31.12

#62 Post by Hinge »

well played game SM!

Not sure there is much analysis as you hit on the themes in your wrap up.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 5 - 31.12

#63 Post by Galdor »

Great job on the win and the report! I've always found VCs to be a tough opponent. The Terrorgheists are particularly nasty with their scream and your Dragon Princes did very well to kill the one here. I've only ever managed to kill one with a lot of focused shooting.
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 5 - 31.12

#64 Post by Ferny »

Called it :P

I had a game against a similar(ish) force but with two units of vargheists and more dogs in a recent tourney. I was taking a helmbus/dragon list and I found I couldn't really cope with the vargheists - shooting at them was a waste of energy with skirmish, cover, high T and multi-wounds and I needed my big boys to get stuck in to his main army. By contrast, your MSU list absolutely had the tools to take on all the threats and could still deal out the damage to the big blocks. As you acknowledge, some opponent mistakes made this easier (and for my money his list lacked chaff/dogs), but the principle remains that you had the troops available to take (almost) everything out. Well played :)
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 5 - 31.12

#65 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Happy New Year! :)

@ RE.Lee

I was definitely happy to be able to catch the fliers so early and I didn't expect Terrorgheist to die on a charge but I will not complain that it did!

@ Hinge

Thanks!

@ Galdor

Cheers! They are indeed! I think that in order to catch a terrorgheist you have to sacrifice some units. And it can still be difficult when they get healed. So as I said I was very happy to catch one. I also think that flying nobles add to the options to do so.

@ Ferny

Some VC armies are quite varied in their troops selection and yes, support troops of different kinds are very important for any army. There is no need to go MSU style but having an army on the other extreme, with very few units, means one can be slowed down and cannot choose the combats freely.

It felt good to have resources to actually fight on two fronts and I think that too kept VC army divided.

Tournament Summary

I would like to start with big thanks to Mark, who organized the tournament but also stepped in as a player to make sure we have even numbers. He was also very kind to lend me his 2 griffon riders so that I could play test nobles on eagles.

It was smoothly organized tournament and it was also made to be a practice for CanCon at the end of January 2015, hence the player's pack and scenarios taken from that event. Although as a test and practice it didn't have painted army requirement.

It was fantastic to meet some of the people I played against before and to have a chance to play against new people too! I also chatted with Master players and it was great to catch up with these great players.

In the end I was lucky to jump on 3rd place as in the other 2 games leading Bretonnian player defeated Daemons 19-1 and kept his 1st position. Congratulations to Richard for a great performance, not only he won the tournament but defended his title from the last year. Anthony Spiers with his Lizards was in hot pursuit and he too won his game 19-1 but it was not enough to get to the top this time. Still fantastic achievement with his unique Lizards. Because both losing players were contenders for 3rd position their big losses and my solid victory resulted in that change in the final standings.

I was also honored to win best sport award but as I was already 3rd overall that award was passed to the next person. But it was amazing to know people gave me their votes!

I was happy with the army list and eagle nobles in particular. They do need better protection though, even if it is one use only so I will give them Charmed Shield and Golden Crown. In terms of magic I was unable to use the potential of Heavens magic. I have discovered that even with the best spell configuration I have 2 spells that do damage and 2 that are either hex or augment. That means that usually I was limited to two per magic phase, depending on the turn of the game. That made dispelling much easier for the opponents. I will come back to Larry the Lormaster then. But I like Magic Resistance items, they are very handy, so I might add one of these too.

Thanks again for comments and for reading!

Cheers!
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Re: MiniMe Tournament - Game 5 - 31.12

#66 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Happy New Year! :)

I was happy with the army list and eagle nobles in particular. They do need better protection though, even if it is one use only so I will give them Charmed Shield and Golden Crown. In terms of magic I was unable to use the potential of Heavens magic. I have discovered that even with the best spell configuration I have 2 spells that do damage and 2 that are either hex or augment. That means that usually I was limited to two per magic phase, depending on the turn of the game. That made dispelling much easier for the opponents. I will come back to Larry the Lormaster then. But I like Magic Resistance items, they are very handy, so I might add one of these too.
Happy New Year.

Congrats on the placement and well done on the games.

I'll be interested to see your list developments from this, especially given that you play test a list thoroughly before moving on. I like that your eagle riders have impressed enough to stay. I've never quite managed to convince myself that their points wouldn't be better spent elsewhere, so I love to see them all the more when they do come out to play. (I think that unit type is good, e.g. peg masters, I just feel the eagle riders are a little lacking). But I'm delighted to see them get an equipment rejig and stay for the next phase of testing.

Archie vs Larry...like you, I've kinda felt that Archie ought to work but was always drawn to Larry. This kinda proves why - I don't think Archie is 100% bad, just that Larry fills the niche very nicely.

MR - I'll be interested to see how you fit it in. I love it for other lists (e.g. seahelm BSB with shield of Myr and MR2 in PG), but in MSU it feels like a high cost for limited return.

But enough list talk (you shouldn't have tempted me :P :lol: )

I had another tactics question. When the terrorgheist moved big style across the board in your last game, did you miscalculate distances there when you allowed it a safe landing spot? Or was it just the spell what did it? And if so, did you plan for the spell in advance or did it take you off guard? You proceeded to deal with the gheist very well, but I think it ate two units where potentially you could have gotten away with just one?

I've found that after my first few encounters with them where I didn't understand their rules and they just scared the pants off me, they're actually quite fun to play against because their movement is so restricted by the vamp and with loads of cavalry options (even reavers) we can have a good threat range to charge (flank? banner?) and hope to pop them on the charge. As such I measure distances really carefully (and obviously) to make sure that there's no safe landing zone (I guess its the same with gyros, terradons etc, but at least there aren't usually more than 2 terrors).
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Re: HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

#67 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

Thanks!

No problem with list talking, as you said I invited it in a fashion. This tournament was organized to allow people to check their lists first before bigger tournament so I probably should have given more detailed run down on what I learned from it.

I would like to try light magic at some stage but I think I might do it for a local tournament like this one rather than for a bigger, 8 games event.

Magic Resistance fills the bill for me because I like the idea of a character helping units. I am also a big fan of magic banners but they obviously affect a single regiment. Hence, it is easier to predict where certain unit might be and where character is going to end up. If, on the other hand, I equip my character with equipment that affect his unit I think I retain flexibility. In the case of Magic Resistance the aim also is to have better protection against magic. With ward save I can get 2++ or 3++ ward save and that will help for sure.

I tried to position my cavalry units accordingly but I noticed that at this stage I need to enter danger zone because if I stay too far, he can fly to my opposite flank where I had mainly infantry. While I would not be bale to reach it anyway if he decided to do so I could be in a good position to attack already. However, I definitely miscalculated in terms of magic phase. I simply assumed I will try to dispel VanHels as priority but he had good Death Lore spells I should have taken into account, in particular Soulblight.

They are dangerous but manageable, I agree. I had games against 2 or 3 of them at the same time and it is even more fun to play! :) What I have found is that having hard hitting infantry as Swordmasters and Lions forming second line allows cavalry to push aggressively and still create no landing zones behind them. That means you can put the pressure on the enemy and not stall your advance.

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

#68 Post by Galharen »

Swordmaster, I would recommend you switching one eagle noble for frostheart. The diffference between them is huuuuuge. You said you like when heroes help your units. Then compare how an eagle noble works with your infantry and how frostheart would. It is just my opinion, you will find for sure better solution, but trust me, frost is a really powerfull weapon. Magic attacks, thunder stomp, well much betterin any case than eagle noble and is just a little bit more expensive.
And imo, suits perfectly to your style.
Frost can hold and even break an infantry unit all alone but still needs an assistence of bsb.
Just xonsider this, i am curious what will you figure out:))
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Re: HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

#69 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Galharen,

Well, the switch is not that simple I am afraid :( First of all, frostheart is worth 240 points meaning I have to obtain 60+ points from somewhere. It is not impossible but you see that my units are kind of at minimum size already. I definitely don't question the fact that frosty would add to the list as it adds to any HE army.

I would be tempted to get one just for the sake of painting it as it would create a perfect centerfold model for my army. But I admit it is a tough decision to make at the moment as I need to prepare an army for the next tournament and I am not sure if I can have time to paint even a single eagle rider model (or proxy with IoB girffon rider) let alone two.

But you know what? Let's move that to my army blog topic and see if we can do some brainstorming about the army list anyway!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

#70 Post by Eltherion2 »

Hi SM your Batreps are interesting as always.

I was just wondering how you will tweak? change this list for your next Tourney? I like your idea of Charmed Shield and Golden Crown on Eagle Nobles for extra defence.

What is the verdict on the Eagle Riders? will they stay in the list? I think they provide useful support for your small units and are also quick and maneuverable. One idea might be Ruby Ring and/or Kaine's Ring (help chaff clearing) on a Eagle Nobles but not sure if they have the points for this and would still be effective in Close Combat. These guys are also something I am also looking at to help deal with Wood Elves. Also if the Eagles are on 50mm bases the Eagle Nobles can hide in Reaver or DP units especially turn 1 if facing shooty heavy lists like Wood Elves with lots of Waywatchers. Though under Swedish Comp you may only face one unit of these anti armor bowmen.

It is interesting you want to go back to the Loremaster who has a great range of spells but only +2 when casting. I guess you can use the trickle dice effect if you get a big Magic Phase with him.

I have run a solo Lvl 4 Metal in the past, in your game vs. the VC. Final Trans, Enchanted Blades, Transmutation to Lead and Glittering Robe may all have been useful here. High Magic may also be worth a look to heal up the Eagle Riders, ward save buffs, Arcane Unforging and Fiery Convocation could all be useful. Also the buffs to Ward saves from High Magic (Kaine's Ring?) could be good if you are also adding MR to your list.

You have a solid shooting base with archers and 2x RBT's did this help your army much over the course of the Tourney? The archers would seem to be ideal for your list as they shoot and in close combat they provide a similar role to the Spear Elves.
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Re: HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

#71 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Eltherion,

I am currently discussing army list in the army blog topic so if you have time, have a look!

If I were to field Eagle Riders again (and I want to!) these options are considered:

Noble, Heavy Armor, Great Eagle, Lion Cloak, Great Weapon, Star Lance, Potion of Foolhardiness, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem - 177

Noble, Dragon Armor, Lance, Great Eagle, Golden Crown, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Strength

I know that loremaster may have hard time casting spells but he was good enough before and gives me enormous flexibility. I tried Metal Archmage before and I know it works very well. I just like Loremaster better :)

2 bolt throwers are definitely very helpful. It is hard to evaluate how much they improved the shooting phase but when I got 6 Silver Helms in a single turn of shooting that definitely was something to like! I am going to run 2 x 14 archers and see how that goes.

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

#72 Post by NonnoSte »

Hi Swordmaster.
Thanks for the detailed reports, as usual. They were all pleasant and interesting to read, other than endless sources of learning.

Seeing how easily you divided and encircled the two VC armies was just amazing.
Against the High Elves army you did a great job too, despite its good mobility. I second the tip given by Hinge of "hopping" your Eagle Nobles from unit to unit to keep them safe from BS based shooting (it DOES work with infantry too, regardless of footprint. I used to do so with the old WE book, when I was running two eagle nobles and 4/5 units of Glade Guards).
In the other two games you looked a bit "shy" in taking the initiative compared with the ones you won. Is it possible that you were just caught off guard by their unusual openings?

By the way, many words have been spent on each of the battles and I enjoyed the insightful discussions that arose too. I don't have much more to add which has not already been said.

There's just one thing that nobody mentioned and I wanted to ask you: in the last game, during the 3rd turn, had you considered to charge the small unit of zombies in the middle with WL on the flank alongside your Archers?
It looks like it would have allowed both your regiments to close on his Ghouls for the turn 4 combined charge. You would have probably waited to charge anyway with a bubbled Soulblight on, but in a different soyuation it would have given you the possibility to get rid of his general a turn sooner.
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Re: HE MSU 3rd at MiniMe Tournament - Summary

#73 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi NonnoSte,

I am glad to know you liked my reports! You are a very skillful player and reporter yourself so it is fantastic to know you consider my games interesting to read!

It is a very good point about eagle riders and I am going to use it if I field them. It is very important to be able to protect them for sure! I definitely could have used that against Lizards!

Hm, I am not sure what was the reason for me being shy in two lost games. I knew Lizards were going to attack quickly, I just made a mistake in the deployment. Although in that game you may be referring to the way I moved my units on the right flank. I think I was concerned with poisonous shots but somehow forgot that my cavalry and eagle riders were actually well prepared to meet such threat.

I blundered with the Dragon Princes on the left flank against Brets too. So yes, I was shy as well. I think I am sometimes too concerned with potential losses. It's as if I didn't want to send warriors to their deaths but in the end, being passive does not save them, often just the contrary.

I am very happy about the discussion that took place but I disagree there is nothing you can add! You are very astute reader and there are many things that can be discussed from every game.

It is a very good point about flank attack with White Lions. I admit I didn't think about it and simply pushed the archers forward where Lions could have done the same and covered more space in the same time. That might have helped later on too as I would have had two units in a position to attack earlier and maybe I could have caught GG too!

Thanks a lot for your feedback! It is always very much appreciated!

Cheers!
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