Battle Report HE-VC 3000p - Arcane Ruins

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Caledfwlch
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Battle Report HE-VC 3000p - Arcane Ruins

#1 Post by Caledfwlch »

Dear all,

The battle report below recaps a battle I fought some weeks ago, and is the first of what is to become a series of battles reports against the foul Vampire Counts. I thought it to be a good idea to write a report in an attempt to contribute to the discussions on this excellent forum!

Before I get to the report itself, I should provide you with a small disclaimer on my knowledge of the rules of the game: as you'll be able to see for yourself in a few moments this is fairly elementary. I’ve played High Elves for a few years in my teenage years (I gueass mid-6th edition), albeit on a much smaller scale (1500 pts at the most). You can imagine my excitement a few weeks ago when I massed 3000 points army to stand up against the onslaught of the unholy Vampire Counts! I’ve never had the pleasure to fight them, but reading into the details of that army and seeing what VC usually bring to the fore it seemed wise to bring a lot of magic and a lot of archery.

And that is exactly what I didn’t do. Having read into the new book, as well as the high quality discussions and army blogs of this forum I had become very enthusiastic about trying out a Cavbus and Stardragon, and hence decided to adopt a developed army list to try it out for myself.

Enfin, let me first of all introduce the armies (Unfortunately I don’t have the exact VC-list atm, but I'd be happy to add a more detailed list if that's more appropriate).

Prince Gil-Maeg’s valiant army
Prince Gil-Maeg
Star Dragon, Dragon Armour, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, shield, potion of foolhardedness - 612

Noble (BSB)
Barded Steed, BotWD, Heavy armour, Charmed Shield, luckstone, Ogre Blade - 189
Korhil (in PG) - 150
Mage L2 High Magic on Steed, Scroll of Shielding - 145
Mage L2 High Magic on Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155

Silver Helms 17 (Full Command & Shields) 421
Ellyrian Reavers 5 (Spears) 80
Ellyrian Reavers 5 (Bow swap) 85
Ellyrian Reavers 5 (Bow swap) 85
Ellyrian Reavers 5 (Bow swap) 85

Phoenix Guard 31 (FC, razor banner - 540

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 70
Repeater Bolt Thrower - 70
Repeater Bolt Thrower - 70
Frostheart Phoenix - 240

total: 2997

VC army-list

Vampire Lord – L4 (Vampire Lore) - Magic Weapon – in Skeleton Unit 1 (in Skeleton1)

Vampire – L2 (Vampire Lore) Dispel Scroll – in Ghouls
Vampire – L2 (Vampire Lore) – in Skeleton Unit 1 (Skeleton2)
Wight King (BsB – possibly Banner otBarrows, heavy in armour/saves) – in Grave Guards

40 Skeletons – Hand Weapons (= Skeleton1)
40 Skeletons – Spears ( = Skeleton2)
30 Ghouls
5 Dire Wolfs
5 Dire Wolfs
30 Grave Guards – FC
4 Carn Wraiths
6 Vargheists (+ Vargoyle)
1 Mortis Engine (+book)
1 Black Coach

total: 3000 points
===============
I had the advantage to choose the table-site and managed to grab first turn. The VC player had more drops, but since I had 4 units of Reavers I managed to deploy my heavy units after he had positioned his.

The deployment was as is shown in figure 1 (please note that the scale is a bit off, I put up some pictures for comparison). I was again lucky to move my units forward first, thus hampering his dire wolfs. Especially regarding ER3 facing the Vargheists this would prove advantageous. My aim for ER1 and ER2 was to open up his solid frontline, or at least keep the black coach out of the real combat as much as I could.

Figure 1 – deployment (including vanguard move)
Image

And a photo:
Image
=======
A chill gust touched his silver hair as Prince Gil-Maeg noticed some faint movements in the icey fog. The elven general was in a bad mood: he was unable to get rid of the thought that he had been send off to defend some worthless farms which, by the looks of it, had need never seen much flourishing anyway. Had it not been his father who had valiantly defended the colony’s important trade routes against the greedy greenskins? Had it not been his grandfather who had kept the strategic strongholds from being overthrown by the chaos hordes? And yet, here he was guarding a bunch of barren acres.

His dragon was restless and so were his men. Gil-Maeg tightened his grip on the bridle to have his dragon stand up and looked at the proud army surrounding him. His bolt thrower crew were discussing angles and distances whilst his Silver Helms were firing up their steeds for the impending battle. The Phoenix Guard silently awaited their orders.

Clearly, sending him on a campaign like this was an attempt to keep him away from the real war. As if he hadn’t noticed the smiles on the faces of the city’s aldermen when they briefed him. There could be no doubt that the decision had been political: they wanted to get rid of him.

Another chill gust woke the prince from his unsettling day-dream. How long had he been distracted? Was this some dark magic? He'd better call the advance before his whole army fell asleep. Gil-Maeg rose his radiant lance, and only then noticed that the farms were surrounded by hordes of pale figures that were slowly but surely moving towards him.

============

HE Turn 1
Figure 2: HE turn 1
Image

Take off! Ellyrian reavers (ER3) move up to block the Vargheists, ER1 and ER2 move up to block the line of sight of the spellcasters. ER4 pass dire wolfs to block skeletons from advancing. PG move up. Prince/Star Dragon (PSD) move up to hit Mortis Engine or Black Coach. Actually I was a bit undecided about what to do with the Cavbus:
- I could go right and separate my army into two parts. I knew that his general was in Skeletons 1 and assumed that he would then be too late to help his wraiths, skeletons and black coach on the right flank because the swamp and rather steep hill in the middle of the battlefield would seriously hamper his big units to rescue his skeletons. However, I assumed that those units would lock up both the PSD and Cavbus at least for 2 turns and that this would enable him to kill off the PG and FP with his three units (remember that my mages were stored in the Cavbus, and were limited in their ability to remove his hex-spells, if any).
- I could go left and deal with his main force heads on. Here my aim was to kill his Vampires in Skeletons 1 and in the Ghouls as soon as possible. It was my guess that his Black Coach, Skeletons2, Carn Wraiths and Dire Wolfs2 would have a hard time joining the main battle (As they were out of reach of the general and wouldn’t be able to use full move).

So I chose left to face his main force heads on. Notice that the phoenix stays behind – I was a bit hesitant here, not sure what to do as I didn’t want him to be exposed to the Vargheists. This proved to be a bad decision in the end, it should have joined the main force much earlier on.

Magic: didn’t do much, sadly: he already drew his scroll to dispel my Khaines Unforging and soul quench doesn’t work.
Shooting: I kill a bunch of wolfs and I believe some skeletons on the right. ER1 and ER2 have bows and shoot a few ghouls.

VC Turn 1
Figure 3 – VC turn 1
Image

Movement: Vargheists try to charge ER3, but these flee and Vargheists fail their redirected charge. All his troops move up.
Magic: His magic phase is powerful: Gaze of Nagash annihilates a Reaver-unit because I was dumb enough to save my Dispel Dice for another spell (which didn’t came as he failed to cast it). The Black coach already takes up 2 D6 of power dice, so I filling up quite well. The Mortis Engine is working well too, the nearby units receive Regeneration +1 and the machine really pumps his magic abilities. I need to get rid of that thing!

Shooting: Not really. Mortis Engine’s howls two more Reavers to death.

HE Turn 2
Figure 4 – HE turn 2
Image

Movement (and combat): With a loud roar the Star Dragon charges the Mortis Engine and Gil-Maeg’s radiant spear smashes the ancient altar and its unholy relic to pieces! With a set of well positioned strikes the machine is destroyed and explodes in Gil-Maeg’s face, scratching his brand new shield but wounding the dragon.
The Cavbus charges too to get the most out of their lances. Quite a few Ghouls go down (I believe 10), but their poisonous attacks do kill 3 Silverhelms. Cavbus wins the battle, which crumbles some ghouls.
The phoenix heads forward to prevent the Skeletons1 from flanking the Cavbus. The PGs move up too in order to get out of sight of the Vargheists (which succeeds). ER3 do their trick again and attempt to hamper the Vargheists. ER4 retreats to aid the core of the army.

Magic: drain magic removes regeneration of all VC units. Khaine’s unforging wounds the vampire in the ghoul unit but doesn’t remove any magic items, since there are none.

Shooting: Dire Wolfs1 dies, other RBT shoots 5 skeletons.

VC turn 2
Figure 5 – VC turn 2
Image

Charge (and combat): Vargheist fail to catch ER3, and once again fail to redirect their charge. Grave Guards charge PGs and the foul Wight King challenges Korhil, who answers without hesitation. Korhil quickly swings his mighty axe and cracks Undead king’s ancient bones (1 wound). But then the first of a series of misfortunes sets in: the Wight king thrusts his rusty sword into the elf’s throat, thus slaying the noble elf. The PG are unable to take revenge and loose the combat by 2. Which breaks them! The situation is critical, but not desperate.

At the same time the skeletons clash into the flank of the Cavbus because, sadly, the phoenix is just an inch too far away to prevent that from happening. That really sucks. The vampire lord ‘lives’ up to his name and kills two Silver Helms. CavBus looses combat, but holds.

The Black Coach, skeletons2 and wraiths reposition. The Dire wolfs leave the settlement’s square in order to get themselves killed by the RBTs (not a bad move, as this forces me to shoot at those lousy dogs, rather than the Grave Guards or Vargheists).
Magic is extremely well for him, he channels 2 extra D6, and puts another 2 d6 on the coach (jeez!), I dispel a wind of death with my scroll, but cannot dispel a Curse of Years on the Phoenix Guard. The Vampire Lord raises his arms and laughs madly (lighting strikes): ‘let the elves join us in our fate!’

HE turn 3
Figure 6 – HE turn 3
Image

Movement: I realize that I have made a mistake by not reforming the Star Dragon. I assumed that separate characters had a 360 degree viewpoint, but that isn’t the case (not sure whether it was ever the case). I don’t want to whine, although my opponent valiantly offers to freely reposition the dragon, and take my loss. The good thing is that I’ve learned something for future battles. In any case, it turns up that moving the Ellyrian reavers (ER2) next to the ghouls might not have been the best decision. So I then decide to help out the PG which I assume to clash with their old nemesis.

The next issue: what to do with the roaming Vargheists? Or with the black coach, which is preparing for a painful flank-charge in the Cavbus? At this point I decide to sacrifice the reavers (ER3, ER2) in a desperate attempt to lock the two units for at least one turn. ER4 attempt to lure away the skeletons.

Magic: magic doesn't do much as I roll bad and he easily dispells. I realize 2 L2 mages is just not going to do it for me.
Shooting: RBT kills the last dire wolfs and 1 Vhargeist. Dragon roasts a bunch of Grave Guards (ashes to ashes, grave guards!).
Combat: CavBus loses combat, but holds.

VC turn 3
Figure 7 – VC turn 3
Image

Movement: Vhargeists charge reavers ER3, who hold. Grave Guard charge frost phoenix (and NOT the PGs, as I had expected. Black coach charges ER2, Skeletons2 charge reavers ER4: both flee. Black coach attempts a redirect charge, but fails.

Magic: Invocation of Nehek is cast … with irresistible force! He resurrects ALL Grave Guards and Ghouls. The effect is that all troops adjacent to the vampire Lord (general) - in this case the CavBus, Skeletons and 1 Ghoul - take a strength 10 hit! This kills off the whole Bus, leaving only the BsB behind. But at least it kills the general and skeletons. Right?
Nope, the skeletons are destroyed, but the general survives! This is pitiful, if only because the crumbling would’ve come in handy at this point.

It is only afterwards that I learn that the Battle of the World Dragon does provide its ward save (in the Errata of the Rule Book), but at the time we both assumed that there is no protection from such heavy forces as miscasts. Oh well, at least now I know...

Shooting: none
Combat: the inevitable happens. BsB loses combat and decides it is time for him to leave. And so does the frost phoenix. Grave Guards manage to reform to face the Phoenix Guards. Skeleton1 reform to face the flank of prince/star dragon.

HE Turn 4
Figure 8 - HE turn 4
Image

Movement: BsB and Phoenix reform. PG and Prince/Star Dragon charge grave guards. ER2 try to block the Black Coach once more. ER4 move to see what’s happening at the western front.
Magic: I remove Curse of Years.
Shooting: hardly anything spectacular.
Combat: Some Grave Guards die, but so do PG. PG win the combat, which crumbles some guards Guards. And that’s about it.

VC turn 4
Figure 9 – VC turn 4
Image

Movement – Vhargeists charge RBT and kill it. Ghouls charge Frost Phoenix - who flees, skeletons charge prince/star dragon. The Black Coach is fully charged and overruns ER2.
Magic – Ghouls and skeletons regrow due to invocation of nehek (I still can’t get used to it).
Combat – is intense, grave guards are diminished, but no break through created.

At this point I concede: I lost somewhat over 1500 pts, VC lost just over 500 points, so it is a resounding victory for the forces of destruction.
==========

Recapitulation
Army-list
Having been inspired by the cavbus-lists I decided I wanted to try it out. But against VC this might not have been the brightest ideas (although it was a good practice) – but that might be a result of my handling, rather than the list itself. That said, two L2 mages is just not enough against a VC army of one L4 vampire Lord, two L2 vampires and a Mortis Engine. He really dominated the magic phases – resulting a lots and lots of successful resurrected troops.

I had a lot of fun in this first battle in almost 10 years, and really enjoyed the good-old Warhammer-adrenaline kick of a battle swinging from one side to the other. I made mistakes at different stages in the game, but so did the VC-player. Some thoughts:

Deployment
I’ve been rethinking this part a bit, and concluded that I'd better deployed on the right side of the field. Especially since it was quite clear at an early stage in the deployment phase that he was deploying left from the middle. I could have assumed that it would have taken his main force (I considered these to be Grave Guards and Ghouls) quite some time to travel pass the main hill and swamps in order to charge my rear/flank. Considering the fact that it would have been possible to hamper these units with the Reavers and Phoenix it would have taken him at least 2 / 3 turns. Take a look at this figure to see what you could envision by deploying on the right:

Figure 10 – hypothetical deployment
Image

Here the idea is that the PG could have travelled in a straight line through the village and flank the Skeletons2 (who had by then been charged by the Cavbus). The Wraiths could be killed by the mages early on, or by the magical attacks of PGs). As you can see, the RBTs are positioned left / mid-field and would have had the task to kill the Vargheists and provide a psychological barrier (either keeping his main force in cowering at a distance, or as a red flag to attract at least one unit). The Prince + Phoenix would attempt to destroy the Mortis Engine and Black Coach as soon as possible.

The VC deployment wasn’t bad, but I’d say he had better deployed more tightly and in this game more to the left. The disadvantage of this long line was that, since his general was in Skeletons1, the Black Coach, Skeletons2 and Carn Wraiths could not march. As you’ve probably noticed, these troops didn’t do a thing during this battle – well, apart from looking dangerous perhaps. He could either have just moved up regardless of what happened at the Western side of the table (using Dance Macabre for extra movement), or have deployment his whole army on the left. The Mortis Engine could’ve been deployed just behind Skeletons1, the Black coach just behind either Grave Guards or Ghouls in order to keep it save up until it had been buffed sufficiently. In the first turn he could have skewed his whole army to have it face the south-east. From then on I could have just waited for the dartling Elves to show up.

Moving
I’m really happy how the reavers functioned – although my handling was far from perfect. I think I’ve done a great job in redirecting the Vargheists with ER3, and even in how I moved the ER1 and ER2. However, the forward move of ER2 was just silly (as they then blocked the Princ/Star Dragon). No doubt ER4 could have been used much more efficient, although I’m not sure how. Killing the Mortis Engine right away was a good move (as this took away plusses on casting and removed regeneration off his units), but maybe I’ve opted for the Black Coach as a second target, rather than the Grave Guards?

Regarding the CavBus and PGs: I should possibly have had more patience in moving these guys in. In this game I just allowed the bus to be locked and killed off by the ghouls and skeletons (those poisonous attacks work really well!). Static resolution just wasn’t high enough at this point.

It seems that, oh irony, I wasn’t offensive enough when it comes to the phoenix, as it was just 1 inch short of preventing the skeletons to flank the CavBus. I should have moved this unit up right away, perhaps as unit to lock the skeletons / ghouls.

Concluding
I know I’ve taken up quite some of your valuable time, so I hope you’ve found the report informative and fun to read! For me, there are several points to work on:
1. Deployment – I need a better determination on where the main clashes are likely to take place and deploy accordingly. In this game I was overconfident and just dashed to the middle, although it might have been more clever to have him move up a bit further. Any thoughts on what might have been a better way to deployment?
2. Magic – against VC I need to bring more mages and focus more on preventing him from the resurrecting his troops.
3. Targets – I should have focused on 1 or 2 units, one of which is the Skeletons1 as this units contained a very strong general. The Prince/dragon performed excellent, if I had moved him up along with the phoenix to destroy the Mortis Engine and Black Coach early on, i'd have a much better chance of swinging the battle to my favor. Especially if I stay out of combat just a little longer: if he had turned his unites around towards the prince and phoenix, this would have exposed his line to rear attacks by the cavbus and PG.
4. Reavers – I feel that I don’t have the fingerspitzengefuhl for these guys. The blocking of units can be done much better, and perhaps it isn't necessary to enter combat with them in order to block off attackers (since they tend to get overrun anyway?).
5. Although the Cavbus marched up together with PGs I still let the units be divided where they should have operated together. I made the mistake to have them fight their own battle for 2 rounds, without the help of the phoenix or star dragon.

Thanks again for reading, I’m looking forward to any criticism and comments since I do have a lot to learn!

Ps. next BR coming soon! featuring these two! (Gil-Maeg had to rejoin cadet-school after he'd proved unable to relieve the farms from the verocious vampires) Image
Last edited by Caledfwlch on Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: BR Gil-Maeg's defenders of the realm

#2 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Caledfwlch,

Thank you very much for your detailed report. I hope that you will provide such great quality reports on regular basis!

I don't have experience with the list you used but I hope my comments will not be totally off.

Before I start I wanted to ask about your army list first. It seems that your Battle Standard Bearer has a set of magic equipment and magic banner. I am afraid it is not allowed. (see p90 of HE army book under Battle Standard Bearer). At the same time if it is just a typo and he carries Ogre Blade, Luckstone and Charmed Shield then his point cost seems to be too high.

You picked the army that wants to be in combat but at the same time has some shooting support you might want to use to soften the enemy before you hit them. Or to shoot at support elements of the enemy so that they don't interfere with the movement of your troops. You have two powerful fliers and if you can combine the efforts of at least 2 out of 4 combat elements (Prince, Silver Helms, Phoenix Guard and Frostheart) then you should be able to overwhelm many foes.

Your enemy had the army that looks like classical undead force, with lots of bodies and ability to win the war of attrition. It seems to me that you need to use your speed and maneuver superiority to be able to hit any of these blocks with 2-3 units of yours so that they can't be resurrected. You have enough of support troops to prevent other enemy blocks from joining the fight you need to win decisively and quickly.

Deployment

As to the deployment I am wondering why did you keep your combat units relatively far away from each other? Deploying them in the center as you did has the advantage of being able to turn towards one or another flank or storm through the center if you felt it is the best option. However, since one of your units is infantry it would have problem of keeping up the pace if you separated your regiments too much.

Turn 1

I am not sure if there was a need to move reavers forward that much yet. ER3 could bait Vargheists better if they stayed further back. They seem to be too far from the general to use his Ld and might fail their frenzy test. At the same time you don't want to be too close in case your opponent rolls well and catches fleeing reavers anyway. The same with ER 4 who moved forward. They were still too far from Skeletons to affect their movement.

I think better use would be to keep ER a little at the back and use their bows to shoot at the Wolves. First, you use your bows to good effect, second - you can use your bolt throwers at more juicy targets. What is more, you could set up reavers in the way that would allow them to stand and shoot against surviving dire wolves and finish them in your opponents turn, if he chose to do so. Reavers have that advantage that they can hit before them and with extra hits from stand and shoot it is a good chance you would get rid of these two units.

Moving towards one flank with all your units is a good decision as you can focus the killing power on single enemy. I am just surprised you kept Frosthart so far back. What was the plan here?

Turn 2

It was a good decision to attack Mortis Engine with your prince as you got rid of it early when the explosion could not harm many of your units. However, I don't understand what was the reason for forming reavers into single file? They were in a perfect position to move in front of the S1 unit and prevent flanking on Silver Helms. Your cavalry bus would slowly grind down the ghouls giving your prince time to join them turn after and removing entire unit.

You also had a fantastic opportunity to charge DW1 with PG. If the map is correct it was flank charge and undead troops cannot flee. You would destroy them easily and your overrun move would probably take you into the contact with Vargheists. They are dangerous troops but you are well protected and hit before them. You would win against them and be in a very good position to attack the flank of the enemy army. At the same time your ER3 could use their move to block GG from helping.

I was also wondering why didn't you use the bolt throwers to finish off DW2?

You could choose to accept the challenge with your PG champion. As he has ward save 4+ he is better equipped to fight against Wight King and you could use Korhil's abilities to better effect as he can inflict more damage against regular GG. You would still be stubborn too. I have also a question, from the map it looks like you were still in range of BSB. Did you fail your re-roll for that break test too?

Turn 3

A pity that didn't use the opportunity to reform after combat with Mortis Engine and could not charge with your Prince against Ghouls. His and his dragons attacks + thunderstomps from both monsters would ensure horrendous casualties on both infantry units. But that is the part of learning! I am sure you will remember that you can do it next time!

Unfortunately, you cannot really block Vargheists with ER3 as they can fly over. I think the better use here would be again to block GG from joining the fight. If Vargheists charged bolt thrower it is ok as they have to overrun (due to frenzy) and would be away from combat for a while. And even if your opponent wheeled during his charge so that overrun carries them along the table edge then it is a small sacrifice in comparison to the fact that you give your combat units a chance to fight back.

The miscast on your opponents general was a cataclysmic event but it can happen sometimes. However, even if the spell didn't go off your Silver Helms and Frostheart were in a very bad position and would have broke anyway.

If I read the map correctly the single rider is your fleeing BSB, is that correct? If that is the case I am afraid he would have died in combat because standard bearers die automatically when the unit breaks.

Turn 4

It is a very good decision to charge GG with PG and a Prince. It is a good example where you could have used your breath weapon in combat thus crumbling more of the enemies (provided you didn't use it before). It is always hard decision when to use it but I think in this game it was better to use all your assets in a single combat.

I would also move ER2 to block Skeletons S1 from joining the combat. Black Coach was not in a position to attack anyone while you benefited more from keeping undead units isolated.

I believe you threw the towel too early. GG died so your PG were in position to flank the Skeletons S1 and destroy his general. Resulting crumbling would help you collecting more points but the VC general himself would give you a lot of points. It really pays off to fight till the end!

You could use ER4 to block black coach too and let PG and the Prince carry the day.

After battle thoughts

Even in a game where your enemy might seem to have the odds in his favor there is a lot that depends on the player. So don't feel bad about making mistakes but try to get the lessons and be better prepared for the next game. There are always many alternative moves you could do at any stage. Even when you win the game it does not mean there was nothing to do differently.

I think you had good tools to win the game. I just think you fought the combats somewhat isolated instead of combining the effort of 2-3 units at the same time and you didn't use your reavers to block the troops that attacked your own combat regiments. But that is something you can correct easily in your future games.

In terms of your refused flank deployment it has merits but I would position PG more to the center and fliers to the flank. In that way you can use the units together. Slower infantry has shorter distance to the enemy, while cavalry and fliers can speed around the flank and all 4 units would be in the position to attack together at the same time.

I also think you can be patient with the list and use shooting to eliminate some targets first. Here it was important to get rid of the Mortis Engine so the attack by the prince was great. But if you used your reavers to hunt down the wolves and kept shooting at vargheists with bolt throwers you may have finally brought them down too. And getting rid of the fast units of the enemy is very important.

Cheers!
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Re: BR Gil-Maeg's defenders of the realm

#3 Post by Caledfwlch »

Hi Swordmaster,

Thanks a lot for your detailed thoughts, I'm glad you took the effort to take so much time to comment! I'll try to go through them a bit and elaborate on the decisions .

First of all, you're completely right about coming prepared. For instance when it comes to the equipment of the BsB (good thing I lost, this makes his victory taste even sweeter), the BsB utomatically dying, the Vargheist being able to fly over (here I guess he wanted to get rid of the Reavers first?).

One of your main overall comments is about dividing the enemy blocks and then have them fight particular blocks in a joint effort - that's what I thought as well, and tried to do in the second battle (stay tuned!). Its ironic that we're dealing with a terrain setup which would have allowed for such strategy.

Turn 1
Good points about the reavers. I took a big risk in approaching the Vargheists without a real backup. Initially I was thinking about using the Phoenix to deal with those, but then assumed it would probably not have enough power to deal with 5/6 of those guys. Moreover, I realized I would need the bird to help win the main battle. All in all, it's because of indecisiveness that I kept it behind.

Turn 2
I'm afraid I have to accept all the points you make here, and that I can only say that my lack of knowledge turned against me ( and I guess that of my opponent too. Or he just didn't bother to tell me, but he doesn't seem to be the type who keeps away information).

So:
- moving the Reavers forward was a bad decision indeed. I assume I thought they would be killed in CC anyway and that the winning block would just overrun into the CavBus.
- Good point about the PG charge and shooting..
- Didn't think about the champion accepting, rather than Korhil. I cannot recall whether the PG were in range of the BsB, but I guess they were. I just forgot about it (yeah, I know..).

Turn 3
Thanks for pointing these things out (Vargheists flying over, BsB dying as a result of CC). the CavBus was pretty much finished indeed.

Turn 4
We agreed to play 4 turns, rather than 6, for practical, out of game reasons - but I admit I did think the cause was lost with all his units closing in. I'll remember that! My main problem is that I got caught up in seeing all his units surrounding me. I'd better keep my head cool and indeed focus on the GG, or at least one single unit. Indeed, in the last stage, when PG and Prince were fighting together they were quite successful in killing GG.

After battle thoughts
Thanks again for all these insights!
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Re: BR Gil-Maeg's defenders of the realm

#4 Post by Iluvatar »

Hi Caledfwlch!

Thanks a lot for this report, that's a very good start to a series we hope you'll be able to keep going!

I'm going to start my comments by the unpleasant part - sorry about that! A few rules corrections that I've spotted in the report. Don't worry too much about them: I was in your exact place 2 years ago, since I started Warhammer after a 10 years break! :wink: (though I did play 40k instead when I was younger...)

First, your BSB cannot have both a magical banner and magic equipment. As Swordmaster stated, you need to choose - either up to 50 points of magic items, or a magical flag.

On the vanguards: I guess it's only due to the diagrams that dire wolves move within 12' of Reavers?

About ER3 blocking Vargheists: they can't! Vargheists fly, and as such they can fly over your units, including Reavers. This means that you can't really prevent them from moving by parking a unit in front of them, as you can do with non-flying units - nor can you block their charge by this way. That said, it seems that the Vargheists were over 12' from the VC general, which means no marching from them, and low Ld for frenzy checks (which they have to do if they have a possible charge). The good move here would be to part the reavers within their charge range (to force the check), but far enough that a successful charge is unlikely - and since they fly, their charge range is 10' + the 2 best of 3D6, which means that you need to be more that 21' away for an unlikely charge without needing to flee (21' away means they need 11 on their dice, and that has almost 20% chances of succeeding). Not needing to flee is useful since even Fast Cav need to pass a Ld test to rally after fleeing (though in that case, they can move, unlike other units).

On VC turn 1, it seems that Vargheists move a lot during their failed charge. Is that a diagram issue or did they move more than the highest D6 rolled in the charge distance (which makes 6' at most)?

On VC turn 3, your BSB shouldn't have fled from combat. Standard bearers (both BSB and unit standards) never flee from combat: they die on the spot instead...

Post game comments: PG could not have killed the wraiths via attacks, because they don't have magical attacks. Having a magical banner does not grant them magical attacks, except if it's specifically stated - which the Razor Standard does not.


That's it for the bad part! I hope you won't take those in a negative way, they're just meant to help you remember a few of the many, many rules in WH...


Now, a few more comments on the report itself: well done! It provides a nice level of enjoyment, and I hope you'll be able to follow with more of them, even if it does take a lot of time. So, thanks a lot!

Swordmaster has already provided a turn by turn analysis, so I won't go again in this since I agree with most of what he said. But a general feeling after reading the report is that you didn't use the greatest strengths of your army. The first one is mobility, especially against a foot-oriented, M4 enemy army. With your fliers and cavalry, you should choose exactly where the fights happen and how. The second one is force concentration: with the two monsters, PG and Silver Helms, you have an incredible combat power that you can focus on a small portion of the battlefield, which you enemy can't do. If you just go down the middle, you actually play in the VC's strength, especially since they are good at grinding with the resurrection.

Your alternative deployment is better in this matter: you choose to fight on one half of the field, to destroy half the enemy army before the second half gets to play. However, there's one default in this deployment, which - again :P - Swordmaster has pointed: PG are too far on the flank. Even by marching on turn 1, they won't be far enough to reach combat before turn 3, so your fliers must either:
- wait for them to engage, which denies you the mobility advantage
- engage the flank of the VC army (wraiths, skeletons, black coach), which makes it even longer for PG to engage
- engage the VC army more centrally, which can be disastrous with potential counter charges from VC

The solution is to swap the fliers and PG. First turn, move fliers and Silver Helms up to threaten the flank of the VC army while PG advance moderately. Turn 2, charge with fliers and/or cavalry bus, while PG control the center so that any VC infantry trying to rescue the crumbling flank risks a charge from PG...
Of course, this is just theory that you opponent will try to wreck... :roll:


Again, thanks a lot for the time you spent in this report. I do hope you'll keep enjoying us - and yourself too! :D
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Re: BR Gil-Maeg's defenders of the realm

#5 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Caledfwlch,

I just wanted to add that all I wrote is not meant as criticism, just some food for thought. As I said, warhammer is the game with many factors playing the part and the situation changes dynamically. Hence it is easy to miss opportunities, even if you play regularly. I am glad you liked the comments but the most important thing is that you enjoyed the game after long break.

Great to know there is another battle report coming! Looking forward to reading it!

Cheers!
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Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Caledfwlch
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Re: BR Gil-Maeg's defenders of the realm

#6 Post by Caledfwlch »

Hi!

Thank you both for the kind words and time to comment on my report. It took a lot of time writing it (but that's mostly due to the fact that I had to get used to the Battle Chronicler program), but your comments and suggestions makes it more than worthwhile! Its good to add that I'm in no way offended: my tone might have been overly defensive because I have to admit that I was a but ashamed about making these unnecessary mistakes in the army-list and BsB-moves. But as you say, we're here to learn.

Let me just briefly react to two points that both of you point out:
You are both right (obviously) on the profound differences in speed between the PG and the rest - I hadn't fully realized the profound implications of this yet.

I also like the points both of you make about the Vargheists. I'll discuss that Issue with my opponent as well, as I don't think he fully realized the potential of this unit either. In this game I got away quite well because of some good rolls (especially when taking into account that at 1 or 2 turns his Vargheists were not able to use general or BsB for their leadership test).

Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to write the next report!
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Re: BR Gil-Maeg's defenders of the realm

#7 Post by Vindicare »

On turn 3 you wrote; "...take a strength 10 hit! This kills off the whole Bus" - you seriously didn't save a single 2+ ward save?

Edit; I reread your army list. You Noble is a BSB, but is noted as having BotWD and a few other magic items. I am assuming the BotWD in that description is just meant to be BSB?
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Re: BR Gil-Maeg's defenders of the realm

#8 Post by Caledfwlch »

Battle report High Elves vs Vampire Counts – 3000 pts, pitched battle, 8th edition

High there fellow commanders!

It’s been a while since I last posted, although I’ve kept on visiting the forum and enjoying your fine battle reports. To once again contribute to the community I made some time to write up two battle reports that I hope we can discuss!
In my previous report I promised a report on a Teclis-Vampire match-up, but since my notes are not that accurate and since I forgot too much of the details I will make that one a bit shorter. I’ll focus more on movements in that one, for although it was a Massive Magic Massacre there is still quite a few elements I could have done better. Fo sho’
This battle was fought on a Sunday- afternoon in Amsterdam. Humidity was great, church bells rang occasionally, the storks just returned to their summer nests from …eh.. far away. But meanwhile…

…Prince Gil-Maeg was leading his small armee ever deeper into the soiled valleys of Tilea. His objectives were still the same: clear the lands of the undead hordes and their vampiric masters. Retrieve the arcane sanctuaries for the colony.

It had been twenty days since he had left the city gates and up until now his army had met little resistance. Well, save for that one battle that had only been turned into a victory due to the just in time arrival of his good friend Archmage Gulon and his reinforcements. Yet now everything indicated that the foul vampires were massing an army to meet him at the ruined altar of Khaine.
Ah yes, once again a greenish mist started covering the fields ahead, and once again he noticed how natural sounds were absent. Slow movements at the edge of the swamp, shadowy figures in the sky, a chill wind. With a simple gesture Prince Gil-Maeg ordered his troops to draw up in battle array and unroll their ancient banners.

Prince Gil-Maeg transferred command to Gulon and took his position on the right flank.


High Elves - Gil-Maeg's Flickering Warhost

Prince Gil-Maeg - Steed ithilmar Barding, Dragon Armour, Star Lance, shield, potion of foolhardedness - in Dragon Princes (227).
Archmage Gulon (general) - L4 Mage, Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown of Atrazar - Shadow Magic - in white lions (285).

Noble Mireath - Bsb, heavy armour, Enchanted Shield, Tormentor sword - in white lions (110).
Mage Thanneth - L1 mage, Dispell Scroll - high magic - in Spearelves (110).

20 Archers [music, banner] (230)
12 Archers (120)
40 Spears [FC, Standard of Discipline] (405)

5 Dragon Princes [FC, Licheborne Pennant] (190)
22 White Lions [FC, Banner of the World Dragon] (366)
24 Phoenix Guard [FC, Razor Standard] (435)

1 Phoenix 1 [Flamespire] (225)
1 Phoenix 1 [Frostheart] (240)
1 Eagle (50)

Army total 2993

Vampire Counts

Vampire Lord L4 – in Skeletons 1
Wight King (BsB) – in Grave Guard
Vampire L2 (Dispel Scroll) – in Skeletons 2
Vampire L2 – in Crypt Ghouls

5 Dire Wolfs (DW1)
5 Dire Wolfs (DW2)
40 Crypt Ghouls (CG)
50 Skeletons (S1) - FC
30 Skeletons (S2) - FC

40 Grave Guard (GG) - FC – Banner +1 WS
6 Vargheists
4 Cairn Wraiths
1 Black Coach
1 Mortis Engine with Book

Army total 3000

Map
A kind third person set up the battle map, and we decide that the ruin in the middle-left will be an ‘Arcane Ruin’ (p. 124 – wizards within 6” may roll up to four channel dice, but need to make sure no more than three dice come up as 6s – in my luckiest turn I rolled two 6s for a total of 12 pd, jay!). I am lucky enough to choose sides and manage to grab first turn!

Deployment is as follows:

Image

Archmage Gulon and Noble BsB Mireath are in WLs. Mage Thanneth is in Spears. Prince Gil-Mage has joined the Dragon Princes.

Magic: Gulon has Melkoth’s Miasma, Withering, Penumbral Pendulum and Pit of Sades. Tenneth has Drain Magic.
I’m quite happy with this set up. My 20 archers are on a pretty high hill and will be able to see everything in front of them. My initial plan is to kill his Vargheists with DP and Frostphoenix and than steam up to his Mortis Engine (DP) and Carn Wraiths (Frost Phoenix – magical attacks!). The only thing that bothers me is his black coach, if the blocks go head to head I his coach will probably crash into my flanks. I’m a bit undecided there.

High Elves turn 1

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Movement: From left to right. WLs take position and make sure that Gulon is within 6”. Flamespire moves up, kills one Dire Wolf with flames (I land 1” behind the wolfs, hoping in range of his BC, but out of range of his blocks). Spears move up. PG move up. Frost phoenix and DP take position and eagle flies out as bait for the frenzy Wraiths.
Shooting: kills his Dire Wolfs 2.
Magic. Winds = 5+2 (+1 channeling): Gulon casts Melkoth’s Miasma on Crypt Chouls and reduces all stats with 1 (2 dices), but his Pit of Shades is sadly dispelled (4 dices). Tenneth fails to cast drain magic on Spears and so obtain a ward save.

Vampirce Counts turn 1

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Movement"Vargheists declare charge, I roll terribly for the poor eagle and it is torn to pieces. Vargheists then overrun into Frost Phoenix. I immediately see my mistake: I’ve positioned my Dragon Princes the wrong way, which means I can’t rear-charge the Vargheist’s next turn. All other troops move up.
Shooting: none
Magic: He attempts a curse of years on Spears – I dispel. He attempts some vortex on the Spears – I dispel. Man that Book rules!
Combat: Here is a good demonstration of why that Frost phoenix is so much better than the flame phoenix (imho). That WS 6 and S6 + T6 and enemy -1S is massive! The Phoenix is is impregnable for almost anything! 6 Vargheists with a total of 18 attacks only manage to get one wound out. I do 2 in return.

High Elves turn 2

Image

Movement. Spears charge DW 1. PGs move up to meet Grave Guard. Flame Phoenix fly over big Skeleton 1 unit for fire damage and psychological annoyance (fire damage kills 4 skeletons). Dragon Princes move in charge position.
Shooting: archers shoot a total of 10 skeletons away from the Skeleton 1.
Magic (winds 4-3 – no channeling). Gulon is quite successful in getting that magic out: Melkoth’s Miasma reduces all stats of Crypt Ghouls by -1. Pit of Shades is successful, but I am unlucky: I positioned it behind S2 but it flies away, hitting only the Mortis Enginge (no damage due to ward save). Tenneth casts Drain Magic for +1 ward on Spears.
Combat: WL kill DW2. Frost Phoenix kills Vargheist and wounds 2, no hits in return.

Vampirce Counts turn 2
Image

Movement: It’s on! Crypt Ghouls charge into WLs, BC and Skeleton 1 charge into Spears. Skeleton 2 fail their charge and are locked behind (which is actually a big advantage for me! ME, GG and CG move up.
Magic: I dispel his resurrection spell. And he makes no further attempts to cast anything.
Combat: Some WLs die – only due to his skilled Vampire, who after each kill gets additional attacks), but more Crypt Ghouls die (we actually forget to take into account their reduced stats. Sigh). BC + Skeleton 1 create a bloodbath: some 10 Spears die, some 15 skeletons die in return. I lose combat but hold. Vargheists manage nothing but have to take 3 hits in return.

High Elves turn 3
Image

Movement: PG and Flamephoenix charge Grave Guard. Dragon Princes charge Varhgeists. Small archer block moves up to flank charge/ shoot skeleton 2 (but no movement left at this point).
Shooting: none. Archers 2 can’t shoot, Archers 1 can’t see anything, but I deem it unwise to get away from their advantageous position. I wonder what you guys would have done here?
Magic (6-6…yes!): Massive with a capital M of Miraculotioness! I am over confident, and Gulon IF a Melkoth’s miasma on the Crypt Ghouls (using 5 dice). I throw a 10 which means he loses two levels and two spells (Melkoth and Withering). That doesn’t look good. I then use 5 dice to have Tenneth cast Drain Magic (yeah, what can you do?). She Ifs too and this time I throw a 7. This means that all figures surrounding her have to take a S10 hit, while she only gets a headache. Effectively this means that 3 Spear Elves and his Black Coach have to take a test. I somehow manage to save one Elf (aight!), but he doesn’t saves his Black Coach! It explodes into oblivion! Hurray for Tenneth and her youthful enthusiasm!
Combat: 11 Crypt Ghouls die under the mighty Axes of the White Lions. His blender Vamp takes out a few WLs – I’m actually surprised he doesn’t bother to challenge my BsB. He probably wanted to generate combat results. Spears take out 10 skeletons, his blender Vamp and skeletons kill 10 spear elves in return. Flamespyer and Phoenix Guards take down 9 grave guards. They still manage to kill 4 PGs. The Vargheists are utterly destroyed.

Vampire Counts turn 3
Image

Movement: Mortis Engine Flank-charges PGs. Skeleton 2 takes the place of the Black Coach. Cairn Wraiths aim to block the flank of his Grave Guards.
Magic: I dispel scroll some sort of re-roll to attack spell. And I use all my other dice to dispel a vortex. He then resurrects a bunch of Crypt Ghouls.
Combat. I destroy all the Crypt Ghouls he just resurrected and heavily win the Combat – killing even more. Spears completely destroy Skeleton 1 and even manage to get some spears into Skeleton 2. Grave Guards come down like autumn leaves. Things look good, but let there be no mistake: the Spears go down quickly as well. At this point there are 15 left of the old block of 40.

High Elves turn 4 (its getting late so we decide this will be the last round)
Movement:Frost Phoenix and DP charge and destroy Carn Wraiths but I do not dare to overrun my DPs into the Grave Guards. The picture doesn’t show it very well, but the second rank of the DPs would have stood in a swamp and I was not willing to take that risk. Archers charge Mortis Engine (just for combat resolution – but one of them does manage to stick a sword into some vital part).
Magic (5-1). I cast a Pit of Shades but He massively dispels it. I attempt a drain Magic but he uses a dispel scroll
Shooting – none
Combat: WLs kill the Crypt Ghouls and its Vampire and reform to meet the Skeleton 2 block which is still largely intact. The WLs are with 9 left, including Gulon and Mireath (Gulon hasn’t left the unit, but is shown on the altar by mistake). The Spears lose combat and flee. They are overrun by the Vampire Lord L4, who then looks up onto the hill and sees a pround block of 20 archers aiming their longbows at his thin forehead.

The Grave Guards are wiped out by the PGs – due to combat resolution the Vampire is killed as well, and so is the Mortis Engine. We’re in turn 4 so the impact of its implosion hit all units (it destroys 2 DPs, 9 archers – I imagine only the one who wounded the Engine is still standing, like and Elvish Valten and even a White Lion).

Vampire Counts turn 4 (last ride of day)
Image

Movement: Vampire Lord L4 charges the Archers on the hill. They are unable to hit him, and he kills one of them in combat. Skeletons 2 charge WLs, win combat but WLs are stubborn and hold.

At this point the game has ended: I killed some 2200 points, he just under 900: a resounding victory for the High Elves!

After thoughts
I was extremely lucky in turn 3 in killing his Black Coach, for I had no idea what to do against it. It was already in stage three (almost becoming ethereal) and at that point, together with skeletons 1, it would have wiped out the Spears in no time. Do you have any ideas on this matter? Should I have used both phoenixes to kill it, and then go after the Mortis Engine?

List: I will definitely buy two frosties next time, for the WS, S, T of 6 and -1 enemy strength is really worthwhile the 15 points!

The block of 12 archers felt a bit useless, although it did help to get that combat resolution up by 2 in my final round. A unit of Reavers might have been a better idea though, they haven’t lived up to that 100 points in this way.

By the way: I made the mistake of giving two core units a magical banner (noob…), but that was solved just in time by not counting the magical banner of the Archers 2. Instead it should have been 13 archers instead of 12, then.

Mireath was a Level 1 mage, but I wasn’t too happy with that in this case. A L2 High Mage gets +3 in casting his/her spells and I find that a huge advantage over a +2. Just one spell doesn’t give me the flexibility I would like to have.

Deployment: Both ends of the table were quite similar, so I feel that my deployment was okay. Sequence of dropping was A1, A2, Spears, WL, Flame, Frost, Eagle, PG and finally DP. I knew my opponent was very curious to see where I’d drop the DP – thinking they could have hit the ground either left or right. For me the right-site drop was only logical as the unit would have been stuck behind the WL as soon as everything would have moved up.

What I could have done differently is Dropping PG at the far right and PG right next to the red house (on the location of the DPs). That would have opened the field, for now it was just a battle of two sides moving to the middle of the field to finish each other off. Any thoughts on that?

Movement: The DP and Frostphoenix cooperated well, as did the Flamespyre and PGs. However, the WLs were left to their own (not a problem) but the Spears were as well (big problem). I really should have used the Frost Phoenix to aid them, but was too focused on the Varhgeists, Mortis Engine and BC when deciding upon strategy. I’m really curious to hear what you would have done here. Stick with the Spear Elves with one phoenix?

So. I’ll leave it at that for now. Thanks for reading and I’m looking forward to your comments!

Cheers,
Caled

@ Vindicare: both are good points. I must admit that I A) we thought the banner didn't help against that kind of damage and B) I made the mistake of giving the BsB both a magical banner and magic Items. My bad.
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Re: BR Gil-Maeg's defenders of the realm

#9 Post by Galdor »

Hi Caled,

Thanks a lot for this report I thoroughly enjoyed reading it! Congrats on the victory too.

I would like to reply in more detail later but to respond to your comments about your list I agree that the frostheart is clearly a superior choice to the flamespyre for just a few more points! However, the flamespyre can be great fun and can be a pain for enemies that use large blocks of infantry due to its wake of fire. I also wonder if Repeater Bolt throwers would be a useful addition to your list. They could have been a threat to those vargheists for example.

Your phoenix guard did a great job at destroying the grave guard. They never cease to impress! I was wondering why you decided to use 5 power dice to cast miasma as that has a low casting value doesn't it? The same for drain magic. Clearly the 2nd miscast worked in your favour though! I agree with you that the spears could have done with some support, using the frosty perhaps.

Thanks again!
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Re: Battle Report HE-VC 3000p - Arcane Ruins

#10 Post by Caledfwlch »

Hey Galdor,

These are good point indeed. Concerning RBT I felt that they didn't really make up for their points (either in terms of points-return or in psychological effect). Against VC I did want to increase shooting - but decided to do that in core, in order to field more mobile (i.e. flying) combat units. Hence the choice.

The flames of the firebird are a big plus, no doubt. Especially when flying over units with the regenerate ability - not an uncommon thing when fighting VC that brought a Mortis Engine. Yet my experience was that these flames are only moderately effective. You do get to kill some skeletons, but since you have to choose which unit receives the fire damage when flying over multiple enemy units, and because the '-1 enemy strength' of the Frostphoenix is a big plus when blocking/fighting scary monsters, and because that -1S is great help when aiding your own engaged unites (especially when aiding 'big-based' enemies like Vargheists), I'd still opt for the frostphoenix. Last but not least, that 6WS, 6S. 6T and 5+ AS truly shines! It makes the bird so much more resilient. Awesome.

I'm really curious to hear what you would have done different when it comes to deployment. I have the feeling that perhaps I could have deployed less tight.

Cheers!
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Re: Battle Report HE-VC 3000p - Arcane Ruins

#11 Post by Galdor »

Hey,

Overall deployment looked good to me. I might have gone a bit wider with the DP, for a nice flank, but that's about it. It looks like he had more deployment drops than you which can make it trickier. I face VC quite a lot and my opponent always brings a vast amount of zombie chaff so that he can place his black knight bus and terrorgheists last, after all my stuff is down. This usually gives him the upper hand from the start!
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