2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

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lost user 1
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:22 pm

2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#1 Post by lost user 1 »

2 Day - 5 games, 2700pts, no-comp

Tournament Special Rules:

Win/Draw/Loss scoring, with additional points for scenario specific objectives and a bonus secret objective (max 18, minimum 3).

Characters were allowed a "look out sir" roll against test or die spells (if they would normally be eligible for look out sir).

Closed lists.

My List (first time running anything remotely similar)

Prince (General)
Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Cloak of Beards

Archmage (lvl4)
Barded Steed, Crown of Command, book of hoeth (lore of life)

Noble (bsb)
Barded steed, great weapon, shield, dragon armour, BotWD

Lvl 2 Mage
dispel scroll, high magic

Core
Archers x11
Reavers x5 (bows only)
Reavers x5 (bows only)
Silverhelms full command, shields x16

Special
Phoenix Guard x30, full command, razor banner
Shadow Warriors x5

Rare
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix

Total 2698pts


Game 1 - Cheaters!!! vs Dwarves
Scenario Special Rule - each player gets "cheat cards" that have a special, limited, effect. Bonus points for each card you still have in your hand, minus a point if you don't use any of your cards. Victory is determined by VP

Game 2 - Lady of the Swamp vs Empire
Scenario Special Rule - two swamps on the table can be used to summon the "lady", units can pray at the swamp and hope to get her blessing, which can hurt or help. The side with the most units alive at the end of the game with a blessing wins.

Game 3 - Grave Markers vs Vampire Counts
Scenario Special Rule - grave markers scatter the battlefield and can be controlled by a controlling unit (5 or more models, or a character) in base to base contact, or can be looted by a champion/character on a 4+ they receive an item, and the marker is removed and no longer controllable. Each item in your possession is worth 2 points and each controlled marker is worth 1 point at the end of the game. The player with the most "points" from the markers/items wins.

Game 4 - To Please the Chaos Gods vs Dark Elves
Scenario Special Rule - each player nominates a champion of the gods, that character must challenge at every opportunity, and cannot decline challenges. Also, any other character that refuses a challenge within 6" of one of the pyres of the gods, gets penalties to its stats, and any successful challenge within 6" also gains bonuses to their stats. Winner is determined by victory points.

Game 5 - Storm Valley vs Vampire Counts
Scenario Special Rule - a storm chest is located in the middle of the battlefield and casts a random spell on the nearest unit (ala sorcerous portal), 4 storm shields exist that can be picked up by a controlling unit that render that unit immune to the effects of the storm chest. Victor determined by victory points, with bonus points for controlling storm shields and the storm chest.
lost user 1
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:22 pm

Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#2 Post by lost user 1 »

Game 1 vs Dwarves

I was kind of cursing my luck on game 1, facing a dwarf army with double cannons, organ gun, and plenty of other shooting along with a nice fat unit of slayers with a slayer character no less. Oh, and a big ol' unit of great weapon longbeards.

Pretty much tailor made to counter my list.

His list, from memory:

Dwarf Lord on shield bearers, 1+, 4++, Great Weapon
Runesmith with spell eating rune
BSB with 1+
Dragon Slayer (no idea what this guy had)

35ish Longbeards, stubborn, great weapons
30ish Ironbreakers, stubborn
12 Iron drakes
12 thunderers
20 slayers

organ gun
cannon
cannon


Deployment:

Image

Deployment was fairly even. He got my big blocks out first, and was able to concentrate all 3 of his blocks on my helm unit. On the other hand, I was able to hide my phoenixes fairly well, and had room for my shadow warriors to maneuver behind his lines and hunt some cannons.

Unfortunately, he stole the initiative and took first turn.

Dwarf Turn 1

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Moves his troops up. He's managed to block his own guns for the most part, and fails to hit with the one cannon shot he does have. Iron drakes remove a unit of reavers from the board.

High Elf Turn 1

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I advance aggressively, hoping to limit the time his shooting will have to pick me off. Only charge I leave him is either a shooting unit into my reavers, which I'll happily flee, or a very long charge from the slayers into a phoenix, which I'm willing to risk. Being a dwarf player myself, I know just how underwhelming those slayers are going to be (trust me, if you want a depressing exercise in math, run that scenario out, the exact type of enemy they're supposed to counter, and they don't do squat). Magic does nothing but get my regen dispelled and destroyed. Oh well, who wanted that spell anyway?? Shooting, takes a crew member off one cannon, and a couple slayers die.

Dwarf Turn 2

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He attempts the charge with the slayers, and fails. Instead of charging my reavers on the flank, he wisely just decides to shoot them full of holes.

Cannons bounce off my ward save, and he prepares for the incoming charges.

High Elf Turn 2

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Learning how not to use a cavalry bus.

Being my first time using this type of list, I of course thought it was a good idea to charge headlong into a GW wielding dwarf unit, led by a dwarf lord, and accompanied by a runesmith. Why not?! Right?!?! What could go wrong....

Well.... for starters, my cloak of beards failed to destroy either the enchanted armour OR the 4++ on the lord, and my prince proceeded to have all his attacks ping harmlessly off his nemesis. The longbeards chopped the BSB out of his saddle. The Frosty fluffed his attacks on the rune smith and rolled low on his thunderstomp, and, after all that, I lose combat by 2, and my helm bus tucks tail and runs. My phoenix toughs it out, and decides to spend the next 3 turns trying to kill a runesmith that can't seem to fail a 5+ armour save.

Luckily, a failed charge from my other phoenix allowed my prince bus to bounce to safety, and would have a turn to rally without fear of a charge driving them off the table.

Dwarf Turn 3

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Positions his slayers and iron breakers to counter my phoenix guard, while counting on his lord and longbeards to finish off the frosty.

Grape shot takes a shadow warrior out.

In combat, the frost phoenix holds for another round, tying up the longbeard unit.

High Elf Turn 3

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I charge his ironbreakers with my frost phoenix and my phoenix guard. But, my phoenix guard trip on their skirts and fail to make the charge.

My prince and entourage fail to rally, and continue their exodus to the board edge. Shadow warriors charge the cannon, and archers plink a few more slayers off the board.

In combat, the frost phoenix with the longbeards continues their staring contest, accomplishing nothing. The other phoenix, feeling far more inspired, kills the BSB, and a few ironbreakers for good measure, who break on their LD 10 test, and are run down by the intrepid birdy!

Far less surprising, the shadow warriors kill the cannon.

Dwarf Turn 4

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Slayers decide to go for the easy archer points, shooting maneuvers in the vain hope to eliminate the incoming threats.

Combat with the frost phoenix...... continues. Although he finally kills the runesmith!!!! Hoorah!

High Elf Turn 4

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Frosty and shadow warriors charge the remaining cannon, Prince decides to stay in the battle after all, and rallies.

Archers plink a couple more slayers away.

In combat, the frosty miraculously manages to kill not a single cannon crew member. The cannon holds on stubborn. The longbeards finally finish off the phoenix.

Dwarf Turn 5

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Longbeards turn to face the combat, slayers move closer to the archers.

No shooting worth mentioning, and in combat, the Frosty makes amends and destroys the cannon.

High Elf Turn 5

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Phoenix Guard charge the organ gun, frost phoenix into the iron drakes. Everything else runs away from the dwarves, including the archers.

Combat sees the organ gun chopped to pieces, and the iron drakes lose half their number, but hold on steadfast.

Dwarf Turn 6

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Having thoroughly forgotten about the cheat cards, my opponent uses one to great advantage. He makes use of a move any unit 1", and wheels his slayers an inch so they can see my archers. They charge, I have no choice but to hold, and he destroys them.

None of his other units can do much, and the iron drakes lose combat against the phoenix but continue to hold.

High Elf Turn 6

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All out charges. Helms fail to make it into the thunderers, but the PG and frost phoenix make short work of the remaining iron drakes.

I use my 1" cheat card to move my shadow warriors and avoid the -1 combat result.


SUMMARY

15-5 win for the elves!

Not a glorious beginning, that's for sure. Learned some valuable lessons on how to use a bus and how not to.

Had some luck go my way with the Ironbreaker combat, with him failing a LD10 test, but had plenty of bad luck go against me in the combat with the longbeards.

In the end, I think he suffered from trying to do too many different things with his army. He had the shooting and artillery to castle, but didn't. He had the combat troops to be aggressive, but wasn't. As the battle went on, I pretty much had the run of the board and removed the pieces that I chose to fight.
lost user 1
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:22 pm

Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#3 Post by lost user 1 »

GAME 2 vs Empire

So this scenario had the special victory conditions with the lady of the swamp. She begins the game off the board, and a unit within 3" of a swamp can pray at the swamp. On a 3+ she appears at that swamp. This can also cause her to switch the swamp that she's in. So planning which unit at which swamp prayed first was key to maximizing your chances of getting as many blessings as possible.

My opponent had just won the previous tournament he had been at, with a similar list, although with 200 more points than he had at the previous tournament.

Here's his list (from memory)

General - Lord
Balthasar Gelt
Warrior Priest on Barded Horse
BSB
lvl 1 Fire Mage
Master Engineer

15 Crossbowmen
25 Halberds
9 Inner Circle Knights
8 Outriders
40 Great Swords
2 5 man archer detachments

Cannon
Hellblaster Volleygun

Steam Tank


For those unfamiliar with Balthasar, he has loremaster metal (not a big concern for me, plague of rust can be annoying, and of course final transmutation can be devastating) but with my banner, and/or low armour, not overly concerned with the typical uses for the lore. But he also casts as a level 6. And gains MR equal to the number of wizards on the enemy army (in this case a 5++ ward against magic).

His level 1 rolled up fireball for his spell.

My high mage rolled Soul Quench and Apotheosis
My lvl 4 rolled Dwellers Below, Throne of Vines, Regrowth, Earth Blood

Deployment:

Image

He opted for a castle in the middle of the board, hoping to protect his artillery long enough for them to take my phoenixes off the board.

I went with a two prong approach. Sending my fast cav, scouts, and frostys up the flank, then the ability to send either of my combat blocks right up the gut, or flare around the flanks as well.

Despite again having fewer drops, my opponent got first turn. So again I'm facing a relative gun line (2 cannons, Volley gun, and ballistic shooting) losing first turn.... yay.

Empire Turn 1

Image

Moves his outriders up to protect the cannon from the shadow warriors. He makes the call that the reavers are a bigger threat to the cannon (actually not true, especially without spears) and blows them full of holes.

Magic sees him attempt final transmutation on my Phoenix Guard, he rolls high, and I have no choice but to scroll it. Ugh... scroll gone on turn 1. Rest of his magic is shut down.

Shooting puts 2 wounds on the left phoenix, and nothing on the right phoenix.


High Elves Turn 1

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I charge the shadow warriors into the flank of his outriders. Decide to move the helm bus over to that flank as well and push the PG up the gut. Other frost phoenix seeks cover behind the obstacle. Left Phoenix moves up to threaten the cannon.

Magic I attempt dwellers on the great swords. He scrolls it. Well, at least we're even on the scrolls. I also manage to get throne up, which regrows one of the lost wounds on the frost phoenix.

Combat sees the shadow warriors beat the outriders (did 1 wound, took nothing in return), but they stay. Shooting doesn't accomplish much.

Empire Turn 2

Image

With one frost phoenix hidden, he spins the tank around to concentrate both cannons on the left phoenix that already has a wound off. Otherwise, generally shuffling of the board.

Magic, he casts plague of rust on my helms, I let it go. He then attempts final transmutation on the PG again, and I successfully dispel with all my dice. He gets enchanted blades up on his crossbowmen.

Combat, I kill another outrider, they lose, flee, and get run down by the shadow warriors.

Shooting, his cannon fails to hit the frost phoenix, but the steam tank puts another couple wounds on it. On the right flank, his hellblaster fails to do anything to the other phoenix, and the crossbowmen kill the reavers.

High Elf turn 2

Image

Shadow warriors charge the cannon. PG charge the halberds, who flee, right phoenix charges the archer detachment, who flee. Here I made a big mistake. I attempt to charge the helm bus into his knights. Its a long charge and I fail it. Because of that, I stick myself right behind impassable terrain with my biggest combat unit. Great. And I've exposed my flank to the steam tank on a long charge if he attempts it. All the charges fail except the shadow warriors, PG shuffle forward, Frosty stays stuck behind the obstacle. Also fortunate on this one, as you'll see on the next turn.

Magic, dwellers is dispelled, and I get regrowth on the frost phoenix healing all his wounds back.

Shooting, notta worth mentioning.

Combat, the shadow warriors cut down all the crew with incredible ease. (WS 5, with rerolls, even if only at S3 is pretty effective against artillery crew)

Empire turn 3

Image

Shuffles his guys around again. And decides, he's going for the steam tank charge. Now, he doesn't make it with his random movement and ends up smack dab in the middle of the swamp. Now, these swamps were already identified as mist-wreathed swamps as part of the scenario rules. And, those swamps require an initiative test or lose d6 models. Being a monster/chariot, you fail that test, you remove the model. This is where I was lucky my failed charge with my phoenix didn't clear the obstacle, and I stayed an inch on the other side and not in the swamp. He wasn't so fortunate, and after rolling a 5 on the I test, removed his steam tank.

At this point, he said the game is over. I was a little taken back, since his entire army (short a cannon, a fast cav unit and one monster_ was still completely in tact and in position (all previous fleeing units had rallied). Surely the loss of that one unit wouldn't undo the entire army....

Magic, he attempts final transmutation, I dispel again. He again rusts my helms and gets blades up on the crossbowmen. Shooting does nothing worth mentioning.

High Elves turn 3

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I attempt a charge from the phoenix guard on his crossbowmen, who flee. I shuffle my helms sideways away from the obstacle and maneuver my other units on the flank.

Magic, I finally get dwellers off on his greatswords, and remove half of the models.

Shooting, I pretty much continue pretending I don't have any shooting.

Empire Turn 4

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He's going for point denial now. Marches his greatswords out of my PG charge arc and possibly threatening my bus if it attempts a long charge at his knights. Rallies his fleeing crossbowmen. Attempts some more shooting at the phoenix, doesn't do anything.

Magic, he fails to cast transmutation and the phase ends.

No combat.

High Elf Turn 4

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I attempt a few more charges, he flees them all, but at least my phoenix is out of the obstacle. Otherwise I position for pushing in the left flank.

Magic, I regrow more wounds that have been variously lost earlier in the game, but nothing of real note.

No combat, and no shooting to mention.

Empire Turn 5

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Halberds keep fleeing (eventually going off the board). Keeps moving out of my charge arcs. Threatens my phoenix with his knights, and knowingly exposes his flank to a box car charge from my bus.

Magic, I dispel anything worth dispelling, and he gets another rust on my helm bus.

Shooting, nothing of note.

High Elf Turn 5

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This is where the game is truly over. I make the charge into the knights' flank. I also charge my archers at his, which he runs from.

Magic, nothing really to do, so I just throw a bunch of dice at a boosted soul quench at Balthasar (knowing I'd probably overrun into him anyway) and very much kill him. (I think the 4d6 hits turned into around 16 hits, of which 9 wounded and he only save 2 or 3).

No shooting.

Combat see the very easy dispatching of the knights by my bus.

Empire Turn 6

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He rallies he fleeing units, keeps moving out my arc, and attempts to protect his warmachine with a flee from the xbows and a long charge that I wouldn't be able to make onto the volley gun.

He has no magic left, and no shooting either worth anything.

High Elf Turn 6

Image

I charge his xbows with the phoenix, he flees, but only 2" and I catch him and destroy him.

At this point the game is truly over.

After tallying scores, it was an 18-3 for the Elves.



In looking back, I'm not sure I can pin any one thing he did wrong, or I did particularly right. Not getting final transmutation off was beneficial to me, but if he had got an IF through, that could just as easily done as much damage to him as me. Depending so much on his steam tank was an obvious mistake. They're tough, but they aren't invincible, and they're aren't really that mobile to protect your entire army. I think he underutilized his greatswords, since they never got into combat. He did successfully keep my PG out of combat all game and did a great job of fleeing/redirecting on the right flank to keep his position fairly strong until the end of the game without many points invested over there.

The only obvious mistakes were sending the tank into the swamp (which I made the same mistake with my frosty and just got lucky that he never made it in), and killing the reavers instead of the shadow warriors. Those shadow warriors basically secured that entire flank for me, and after their performance against the dwarves, are contending for MVP of the tournament thus far.

As far as my game went, the only real mistake I felt I made was attempting the unlikely charge that locked my helms behind an obstacle far longer than they needed to be.
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Sackree
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#4 Post by Sackree »

Good write ups so far, i'm looking forward to the rest.
There is not too many mistakes you've made so far. You seem to have learnt pretty quickly that frontal charges into strong stubborn units are not the ideal place for the bus haha.
It would have been a completely different game if the stank had made it through the marsh so I would have maybe positioned the bus further to the left of the field to even deny that opportunity but you were fortunate the stank got bogged down in the marsh :D

One wee tip i'll give you is that if you click on a unit on battlescribe in the turn following it being destroyed you can tick a box that removes it from the map making the pictures look tidier.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=45855]Charge of the Loremaster - Army Blog[/url]
lost user 1
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:22 pm

Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#5 Post by lost user 1 »

Game 3 vs Vampire Counts


This game was very interesting. For one, its the first scenario that I played that really didn't have a victory point component to winning. Even the swamp scenario was basically tied to how many units you had left on the board at the end of the game, so could be approached nearly the same way as a regular battle.

For this scenario, there were 6 grave markers on the battlefield. (on the pictures below they're signified by the rocks). You could control a grave marker with a character or a controlling unit (at least 5 models) in base contact, OR you could attempt to loot the grave with a character or unit champion. If you chose to loot the grave, on a 4+ you got an item and the marker was removed from the table. You could choose to use that item later in the game, and on a 4+ it could get used up and disappear, or you could just hold onto it and it was worth 2 victory points at the end. Each controlled marker was also worth 1 point.

Additionally, you had to identify a set number of your units to start the game as reserves, and the initial deployment zone was 18" from the edge. Deployment of armies followed meeting engagement rules, where one player deploys his entire army first.

Knowing these objectives, I played the scenario a very specific way, which may be completely counter intuitive to how I would normally play or how you would expect.

My opponent was a very good, accomplished player. Many tournament wins under his belt, and working his way to the top of this tournament as well.

His List:

Master Necromancer
Necromancer
Necromancer
Wight

50 Ghouls
18 Crypt Horrors
Mortis Engine (i don't show this in the pictures, he had it in reserve and then it never really mattered throughout the whole game.... and honestly.... I forgot all about it :P )
5 Hex Wraiths
5 Hounds
2 Spirit Hosts
20 Zombies
20 Zombies

Magic, all 3 users of his were using his army lore, and had all of the spells between them.

I rolled soul quench and drain magic on my lvl 2
lvl 4: regrowth, throne of vines, earth blood, dwellers below

Deployment:

Image

With much of both of our armies off the board, we both made sure our key components were out. I started the deployment and purposely bunched on the right hand side. I knew I would have the speed advantage on him, and wanted to give myself the edge on getting to the grave markers. Also, remember, victory points don't matter, and I can throw my entire army away, as long as I control more of the markers/loot. This is also the first game I put my mage in with the archers instead of the PG. The PG have a champion, so can claim markers/loot on their own, the archers are completely useless in this regard (and in general against this specific VC army).

Miraculously he didn't manage to roll the 6 for first turn and I had my first first turn of the entire tournament.

High Elf turn 1

Image

Success and failure right off the bat. I fail a very easy charge from my bus into the ghouls. This leaves me with the rather unenviable task of facing the crypt horror horde with the bus.

But, my mage successfully loots an item off the grave marker and turns to get more. The PG enter the building and also successfully loot an item off the marker.

I bring my reserves on and position them around the board. My scouts move in to block the ghouls from charging my bus.

Magic, dwellers on the crypt horrors is dispelled via scroll, and nothing else happens.

No shooting to mention.

VC turn 1

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Brings on his reinforcements, charges my shadow warriors with his ghoul horde and positions his crypt horror horde around the flank of my bus.

I dispel most of his magic, but he does raise a unit of zombies in front of my bus.

The ghouls unsurprisingly mop up the shadow warriors.

He also is successful in looting the two markers he was beside. His master necromancer gets an item and the ghoul character (believe it was a wight in with the ghouls) as well.

High Elves Turn 2

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Key mistake this turn. I needed a unit to get into combat with the ghouls, so that after crushing the zombies with my bus, I could overrun into the ghouls and still have a combat that round, and not in his round. It was a long charge for my frost phoenix and the eligible unit of reavers (needing 10+ on both), so for security, I declare both. Go figure, I make both.

Why this is a problem. With the frontage of both of them making it in and maximizing models in contact, it prevented my bus from being able to overrun into the ghouls due to the angle of the zombie unit.

SIGH. Playing it safe backfired. I have no choice but to move my other phoenix to block the crypt horrors for another turn. My archer continue their adventure across the south of the map.

Magic, I again get one spell off (regen), the rest is shut down. Shooting, nothing worth mentioning.

Combat, the frost phoenix and the reavers win the combat against the ghouls, but all the reavers are killed. The bus kills the zombies and turns to face the incoming crypt horrors.

VC Turn 2

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Charges the frost phoenix with the crypt horrors, and flies the hex wraiths through my PG in the building.

Magic, he gets the reroll to hit up on his units, and raises some zombies in the zombie units.

Combat, the crypt horrors kill the frost phoenix and turn to face the bus. The other frost phoenix continues to win combat against the ghouls, taking big chunks out of their ranks with stomps and crumbles.

High Elves Turn 3

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Here, you're going to wonder why I do what I do. And it does seem counter intuitive.

Why charge the bus into the crypt horrors? Why not either go around them, or just run away. Remember the scenario rules. Right now, he has 4 points (2 items, one with the ghouls and one with his necros) and I have 4 (2 items, one with my PG and one with my mage in the archers). There are only 2 markers left on the table, one in the top left corner and one in the bottom left corner. I've got the bottom left one pretty much locked up, and he has the only decent shot at the one in the top left. BUT, if any of his units break through my line, and catch that archer unit, its toast and I'll lose that item. Knowing this, and knowing that victory points don't matter, I send my bus into the horrors (M6 MI with van hels can close that gap to the archers pretty quickly, not to mention raising new units and then moving them to catch the archers). By doing this, I've effectively blocked his entire army.

I also charge the reavers into the flank of the ghouls, hoping to crumble them even faster. PG exit the building, prepared to support the bus if everything goes really really wrong.

Magic, I get regen up again, and that's it.

Combat, the reavers and frost phoenix have taken the ghouls down to less than half their starting number, and only one reaver dies.

The bus wins against the crypt horrors, but not by much (4+ regen on that turn) and the blockade commences.

VC Turn 3

Image

Moves a spirit host to block my PG, and charges his hounds into my reavers in combat with the ghouls.

Magic, he gets a few more buffs up.

Combat, the helm bus loses, BSB dies, but I'm stubborn still and hold. Frost Phoenix and reavers kill droves more of the ghouls.

High Elves Turn 4

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PG into the spirit host. Archers continue to move to the marker.

Magic, only get throne up.

Combat, Reavers and Frost Phoenix have nearly wiped out the ghouls and the hounds that came to help.

The bus loses combat again, the archmage dies, but they stick around for one more turn.

Spirit host crumbles against the PG.

VC Turn 4

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Moves his zombies into the building to block my PG from going back in, charges his hexwraiths into the PG to tie them up.

Magic, couple more buffs go up on his troops.

Combat, I finish off the hounds and the ghouls. Because I don't have a champ or character in that fight, the magic item is simply lost. I'm now up 4-2 in victory points. Good news.

Bad news, his crypt horrors beat my bus, and run down my survivors. Still, he only has 2 turns to catch my archers and I like my odds. He also has no units left, other than slow zombies, to claim that marker in the far top left.

High Elf Turn 5

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I charge the frosty into a spirit host, for really no reason other than to give him one less unit to try and chase my archers down with.

I run the remaining reavers away. Unfortunately, I fail to loot an item out of the grave marker in the bottom left, and it remains in play.

Magic, I don't attempt anything with my lvl 2, since he's too valuable holding the victory points.

Combat, I win against the hex wraiths, and they crumble a bit, but remain. Bad news though, he's targeting my champ to kill him to get the item to drop. Luckily I survive, but he'll have another turn to attempt it.

VC Turn 5

Image

The flight of the undead.

He comes flying across the board with everything he has left. Magic missile kills my reavers (for kicks I suppose, since they weren't doing anything).

In combat, he kills the PG champ, dropping his item.

High Elves Turn 6

Image

The last turn we played.

At this point I'm winning, I have 1 item to his 1 item, but I'm also controlling an objective, giving me a 3-2 advantage. But, I'm in more than reasonable charge range of his crypt horrors, and maybe even the zombies. Also, they could simply march up and get in contact with the marker themselves, removing it from my control, and bringing it down to a draw.

I fly my frost phoenix to block his charges again, and then hope to loot the last item out of the marker. And I succeed. So I know have 2 items again (both on my mage), the marker is removed, leaving only one marker left in the top left that nobody can reach, and he can't get into combat with my archer unit.

We call it here.

Now, here's where scenario scoring got really interesting. And why it pays to really pay attention and remember all the secondary and bonus objectives.

I had the win, 10 points. I didn't get my secret objective which was to successfully cast 6 spells. Completely forgetting that objective, I didn't even attempt any spells for the last two turns to prevent blowing up my lvl 2 (who had the magic items). I also lost 1 point for having my general die and 1 point for not controlling any markers at the end of the game, since the items counted as victory points but not as controlled markers. This brought me down to 8 points.

My opponent had 3 points for the loss, but he did get his secret objective of killing my BSB, bringing him up to 8 points. He also got a bonus point for killing my general, but lost a point for not controlling any markers.

So in the end, an 8-8 draw.


As far as the game itself goes, I'm not too disappointed with my decisions, the way they played out wasn't always optimal, but the reasoning behind the moves was sound.

My actual mistake was forgetting about my secret objective. If I had cast 2 more spells, I would have had a 13-8 win.

My opponent's only mistake was getting outmaneuvered and out-deployed, clogged up in one part of the battlefield.

This was the final game of the first day, and mental fatigue was probably a contributor to completely forgetting those key objectives. Going into day two, and the final two battles of the tournament, I was in good position (top 5) and had already played one of the best players there and come away with a draw.
lost user 1
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#6 Post by lost user 1 »

Game 4 vs Dark Elves

This one was against a friend of mine that I've battled against many times. I've never lost to him, but I didn't know what his list would look like at this tournament. Also, I've never fought him with this list before (as I've never played this list).

This scenario was straight victory points. Also, you had to appoint a champion that could not refuse challenges and must issue challenges. There was some more special rules related to the 3 pyres, but none of them came into play.

Dark Elves

Dark Lord on Peg (general)
Dark Master on Steed
Dark Master on Steed
Supreme Sorceress on Steed
Sorceress on Steed
Hag on Cauldron of Blood (BSB)

40 Witch Elves
5 Dark Riders
5 Dark Riders
5 Dark Riders
5 Warlocks
Hydra
10 Shades

Tough, fast list. Very fast. Every character was going to be a pain to pin down. The one thing I new he would be anxious to use was the witch elf horde. That was a lot of points sitting there, and none of the rest of his stuff had the punch to hurt my point sinks, the PG, helms, or really even the Frost Phoenixes.

Magic, his lvl 1 rolled of withering and his lvl 4 had 4 dark spells (that again, didn't really come into play) and the warlocks had their spells.

I had drain magic and apotheosis on the lvl 2, and throne, dwellers below, regrowth, and earth blood on my lvl 4

Image

I deployed my shadow warriors to block his vanguard on the left, while neither of our units vanguarded on the right, wary of getting charged or shot to death on the first turn.

He rolled first turn, and the blood started to flow quickly.

Dark Elves Turn 1

Image

Everything moves up. Charges the shadow warriors with the dark riders, who flee.

Magic, nothing to note. He attempts a big shadow bolt on the frost phoenix, and fails to meet the casting value.

Shooting, he destroys one unit of reavers and kills all but one from the other unit.

High Elves Turn 1

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I shuffle forwards and rally my shadow warriors. Threaten his rider units with a frosty and my bus.

Magic sees him scroll a dwellers on his witch elves.

Shooting, I don't accomplish much, killing a warlock.

Dark Elves Turn 2

Image

Shuffles forward a bit more. Attempts a charge from the riders on the shadow warriors again, who flee again.

Magic, small shadow bolt I allow on my phoenix. It does nothing. Dispel doom and darkness.

Shooting, he puts a wound into my PG from his shades. Riders shoot the last standing reaver.

High Elves Turn 2

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Charge the warlocks with my frosty, they flee through the hydra. Hydra panics and runs.

Helm bus charges the riders with the lvl 1, they flee.

Rally the shadow warriors and move the archers to intercept the riders with the masters.

Magic, nothing to really note, not enough dice for dwellers, and no wounds to regrow.

Dark Elves Turn 3

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Hydra rallies and returns to the fight, warlocks and lvl 4 rally and move to the right flank. Riders rally with the lvl 1 and position behind the tower. Dark riders ride down the archers.

Magic, thinking I'm going to charge next turn he casts doom and darkness on my PG. I let it go (since I plan on draining magic if I need to). Everything else is dispelled.

Shooting, he kills the shadow warriors outright from the shades.

High Elves Turn 3

Image

Attempt to charge the witch elves with a frost phoenix and PG, they both fail to make it in. Move up the other phoenix to block a counter charge.

Position the helms to the flank of the witches.

Magic, I punch dwellers through on his witch elves, killing 17.

Dark Elves Turn 4

Image

He goes all in.

Charges the frost phoenix on the left with the shades (who have great weapons) and the masters and riders. Charges the PG with the lord. Charges the centre frosty with the witch elves. I elect to flee, and he redirects onto the PG.

Both charges into the left phoenix succeed, but both centre charges fail.

Magic, I dispel everything he attempts.

Combat sees the Frost Phoenix shrug off every attack, and stomp a few shades into the ground. I win, and stay put, so do the dark elves.

High Elves Turn 4

Image

Turning Point 1

I hit the witches in the flank with my bus. Rally the frost phoenix as well and maneuver the PG to assist the helm bus on the next turn (should they get stuck in combat) and threaten the peg lord as well.

Now, my general was my champion so I had to issue a challenge, which he accepted with his Hag on Cauldron. That made it so my entire unit was out of the fight (blocked by the cauldron) but so was his. So, combat would be decided by my prince and his hag.

I didn't send the PG in on this turn, as with the super frenzy and hatred in place (and a 5++), those witch elves would probably generate positive combat res against the PG, and I wanted them broken fast.

In combat, my prince does 2 wounds to the cauldron itself, while the hag does 1 to the prince. I win combat by 1 for the charge, 1 for the flank, 1 for wounds, and since he's disrupted and gets no ranks, +2 on the ranks as well, he's testing on a 4 re-rollable. He fails it, and the BSB and cauldron are dead, but the witch elves escape my pursuit.

In the frost phoenix combat, I win by one (rolled bad for attacks and 1 thunderstomp), everyone sticks around.

Dark Elves Turn 5

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He sends his lord in to help the phoenix combat. Rallies his witch elves. Moves up his hydra and breathes on my PG, killing.... 2 guys.

Magic, nothing to note.

Combat, he loses combat against the frost phoenix. I do 4 wounds, he does nothing, his shades (what's left) and riders stick, but the lord bounces right back off and flees.

High Elves Turn 5

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I declare the PG against his Lord, who has to flee, then redirect onto the witches, who also flee. Helms declare on the lord, bouncing him again (he stops 1" from the edge!!!) and redirect into the hydra.

Magic, I put another dwellers onto the witch elves, taking them below 25% so they'll be rallying on snake eyes.

Combat, my frost phoenix finishes off the shades and puts a wound on a master. My bus destroys the hydra before it blinks.

Dark Elves Turn 6

Image

Witch elves continue to flee but the general rallies.

Combat, couple wounds on the dark riders but they stick around.

High Elves Turn 6

Image

Charge the witch elves off the map.

And in combat, phoenix kills one master, but not the unit.


Chalk it up to another 18-3 win for the High Elves.

Magic I completed dominated him, he got nothing useful off on me and I dwellered when I needed to and regen'd any wounds he did to me.

In the end, he couldn't hurt my units, after the failed witch elf charge (which needed a 9 to succeed), the initiative was securely mine. He successfully killed all my chaff, while I mostly was free to ignore his and wipe out the juicy witch elf unit.

Also, his spell schools weren't going to help him much. Dark Magic had very little to threaten me, since its all able to be warded against, and I had substantial wards on my blocks. I'm also not sure about a lvl 1 shadow mage, since that school tends to have high casting values... The amount of investment he had in magic was substantial, and getting no returns from it hurt him.


So, after that win I was off to the final game on the top table. My opponent was another vampire counts player, another multiple tournament winner (the region's reigning GT champ, and notoriously worst sportsman champ....). His 4th game had been against the VC player that I had a draw against, and he pounded him 18-3. I had seen his list in action already, double terrorgheist, blender vampire in a black knight bus with a couple vampires for company. And lots of chaff to boot, two bat swarms and two spirit hosts as well as some disposable zombies and a ghoul horde.
lost user 1
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#7 Post by lost user 1 »

Game 5 vs Vampire Counts

Final game of the tournament, winner is likely to win best overall. I'm up against a very experienced player, who plays nothing but VC, and wins with them.... a lot.

His list is a hard one, he's beaten everyone he's played at the tournament thus far, and my toughest opponent from the day before just got crushed by him in the last game.

He also has a reputation of being a bad sport, but, in my initial experience, he seemed friendly and no worse than other players.

This final scenario has the winner by straight victory points. You can get bonus scenario points for controlling the storm chest in the middle of the battlefield, controlling the storm shields (which can be picked up by units to defend against the effects of the chest). It turns out (although we didn't know it before the battle) that we each had the same secret objective, to kill the enemy BSB. Deployment is as for battle for the pass.

His List:

Vampire Lord - ASF, red fury, giant blade, 1+ AS and a ward save
Vampire - ASF Nightshroud (enemies in contact are ASL and get no strength bonuses), lance, 1+ AS
Vampire BSB - ASF Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone (1+ rerollable)
Necromancer lvl 1 dispel scroll

25 zombies
20 zombies
40 ghouls
5 hounds
5 hounds
2 bats
2 bats
spirit host
spirit host
Terrorgheist
Terrorgheist
13 Black Knights

Tough, tough list. Obviously the vampires are with the Black Knights. Lots of chaff, 6 units in fact. Not to mention the ability to raise more. And the zombies might as well be chaff as well. The only real units worth any points or capable of damaging me are the knights, the ghouls, and the terrorgheists.

He has all the spells he wants from his lore, notably raise dead (none of the rest come into play)

I roll up soul quench and hand of glory on my lvl 2, earth blood, throne of vines, regrowth, awakening the wood on my lvl 4. I keep the magic missiles this time to help clear chaff, and need to hope my shooting punches above its weight too.

Deployment:

Image

No surprises here. He's putting his bus right in the centre to counter mine. Lots of chaff on both flanks to be used as he needs.

Vanguards, nothing on the left flank, but I move up my right flank to start shooting. I get to squeeze my shadow warriors into his rear to hunt some hounds.

I get first turn.

High Elves Turn 1

Image

I move up my chaff hunters, and my PG to secure the right flank. I hold back my bus and my phoenixes. I have a feeling this is going to be knight vs knight and I need my monsters to help out. My bus picks up a storm shield, and my archers as well. Unfortunately, the spell chest makes shooting harder this turn (-1 to hit with ballistic shooting)

Magic, he dispels my magic missiles, but I get hand of glory onto my reavers.

Shooting kills a couple hounds out of both units and put a wound on one of the bats.

Vampire Counts Turn 1

Image

True to form, he's coming straight at me. Picks up a shield with his bus, and his rear hounds.

Magic, I dispel raise dead, nothing else matters to me. Shooting, he attempts screams, gets a couple wounds on the shadow warriors.

High Elf Turn 2

Image

Move my shooting around again, move up the PG.

Magic, well, I start with an attempt at 2 dice cast of throne. Roll 2 1s. No problem, reroll one of the 1s, and.... roll another 1. Sigh, that covers magic for this turn.

Shooting, pick a couple more wounds off his chaff units.

Vampire Counts Turn 2

Image

Keeps pushing forward and begins positioning his chaff.

Magic, I again dispel raise dead (with a scroll).

Shooting, he screams the shadow warriors away.

High Elves Turn 3

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I charge my phoenix into his bats, and back everyone else up. I continue to push forward on the right flank with the PG. He's decided to defend the wall with his ghouls, so I'm not worried about getting too close and getting charged (and honestly, the 1 combat resolution he would get from the charge doesn't matter to me even if he did charge). I'm also close enough that if he moves the spirit host in between, I would still just overrun into the ghouls anyway.

My reavers fail their march test, so can't get away from the terrorgheist. Resigned to their fate, they simply reposition for a better shot at the hounds with the storm shield.

Magic. Well. Here we go. 2 Dice thrown at awakening the woods at the bats in front of his bus. 2 1s. K, lets reroll one of those 1s. And.....

Another 1. Magic over. Seriously. The odds of that happening, nevermind twice, is astronomically bad.

Shooting, another wound off the hounds, they only have 2 left now.

Vampire Counts Turn 3

Image

He attempts to charge my archers with his zombies but fails to make it. Maneuvers his terrorgheist to scream the reavers away, and brings up the rest of his support. Moves his bat chaff further ahead.

Magic, he raises zombies in front of my frost phoenix. Here's where he made a mistake. Not knowing that he would get the raise dead off, he moved his bats up to remain blocking my knights from charging his bus. But after he raised the zombies, the only way he could put them that would actually block me, gave me an overrun angle into the bats, either from the phoenix on the one angle, or the bus on the opposite angle. This will be important on the next turn.

Shooting, he screams at the reavers and wipes them out.

High Elves Turn 4

Image

I charge the zombies with my phoenix, and my PG into his ghouls. I'm ok with the -1 to hit, 4s with a reroll is still more than enough to beat ghouls.

Magic this time is unimportant anyway, and he dispels throne.

Shooting, I don't really have much left, and the chest did the oh so helpful -1 to shooting again.

Combat, I kill the zombies and overrun into the bats. I carefully position my phoenix so that he cant charge in with his bus next turn. My PG chop up over half of the ghouls, but my lvl 2 dies (not a concern) and around 3 PG beside that.

Vampire Counts Turn 4

Image

Spirit Host attempts to charge the archers but doesn't make it. Terrorgheists move up, both attempt screams, neither worth noting (no wounds on the phoenix, and maybe 1 PG dies).

He shuffles his bus back, knowing the danger he's in.

In combat, I destroy the bat host and turn to face his bus. My PG finish off the ghouls and get ready for the zombies.

High Elf Turn 5

Image

All or nothing. I send both my phoenixes and my bus into his knights. Its basically an auto-in for them all, and they all make it. My PG hit his zombies. My reavers chase down his hounds on a very long charge.

Magic, he allows throne of vines, but dispels regen.

Combat. Here is a big asterix. Very big.

Notice the layout of the battle. His BSB is in contact with my prince (which is great for me, since that's my secret objective and he has next to no chance of even hurting me), his Vampire is in contact with my BSB (not great, since he only has a lance and could actually hurt my BSB), and his vampire lord is in contact with my Frost Phoenix, so HAS to attack my Frost Phoenix and cant target my BSB.

Now, remember what I mentioned about sportsmanship?

Here's what he says. He says he has the nightshroud AND the sword of might on the BSB. This basically renders my prince useless, but preserves his advantage of a mundane weapon over on his regular vampire. I'm not overly familiar with the Vampire army book, so don't immediately realize that he's just claimed 60pts in magic items on a hero (40 for the shroud, and 20 for the sword).

So I'm going to break down this combat twice. First how we played it with that "mistake".

Combat goes very much to me, and after crumble he's left with 1 Black Knight, and his 3 vampires. But, he's managed to kill my champion and my mage has to move up to the front rank. Here, he does another "mistake" and crumbles everything but the standard bearer, keeping that vital point of combat res in play (in reality, his champion should have been left). In the next turn he successfully raises 5 knights back, wins combat, and my units flee.

After these two oversights are pointed out to the TO, we're asked to redo the combat. He claims "innocent mistake" on both counts. I don't think it was all that innocent, especially given some other things that have started to go on (remembering rules, then forgetting rules the very next round when they don't benefit him anymore, mis-remembering other events earlier in the game, etc).

Combat Redo

Now that my Prince is free to do his S7 rerollable attacks, the combat goes as you'd expect, and with the additional combat res, he's crumbled down to nothing but his vampire lord left.

Even here he tries to claim that his lord will stay in contact with my BSB. I correctly point out that no, his vampire lord will be in corner to corner with my frost phoenix, in front of my prince, with my other frost phoenix in his flank. And remind him, even if that wasn't the case, I could just reform the BSB out of contact, and he couldn't follow with a reform of his own since he was engaged on more than one front. And even if THAT weren't the case, I could simply challenge with my prince and he couldn't refuse since he was a lone character with nowhere to run.

My PG destroy the zombies.

Vampire Counts Turn 5

Image

Games basically over. He charges his spirit host at my archers, beats them by 1 combat res, they fail their steadfast 8 and run off the board.

We don't bother with magic or the combat in the centre, he knows he's not going to overcome my static res, since I'm sitting at +5 (2 ranks, flank, and 2 banners), and in combat with my prince, he's really not likely to do anything (i'd have a 4+ rerollable followed by a 2++).

And that's the game.

18-3 win for the high elves!


It was a really fun tournament that unfortunately had to end on a bit of a sour note. I kept giving him the benefit of the doubt, but with each subsequent rules violation, by accident, and each argument about how he meant to do something different, etc etc, I just got sick of his attitude. Considering how accomplished of a player he is, and how each of those mistakes played strongly in his favour but could then be played correctly the next turn when that same mistake wouldn't benefit him anymore.... Not many people bought his excuse.

I did win best overall, and am happy with the win. The good of the tournament, and the other excellent people that were in attendance, far outweigh the bitter taste from my final opponent.
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Charles Rampant
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#8 Post by Charles Rampant »

Thank you for the report. I am currently toying with doing a cav bus myself (mainly I love the Dragon Prince models) so it was informative to see the benefits and downsides of the list in action. Congratulations on your win, and it was a really enjoyable read! :)
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- Pericles’ Funeral Oration, 431BC.
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#9 Post by lost user 1 »

Charles Rampant wrote:Thank you for the report. I am currently toying with doing a cav bus myself (mainly I love the Dragon Prince models) so it was informative to see the benefits and downsides of the list in action. Congratulations on your win, and it was a really enjoyable read! :)
Thanks for the compliment!

Here's my thoughts on the cavalry bus.

To do it right, you need to devote a large portion of your points to it. This was a 2700pt tournament (fairly large point allowance as far as tournaments go), and I had approx 1300pts sitting in that unit. And, one of my points was that I would want to protect my BSB even more, so maybe even finding another noble to put in to bump my BSB into the second rank, which would put you closer to 1450 points.

A huge percentage of the damage is going to be done by characters, especially against armies that you won't be getting your rerolls against. And if you get a case of rubber lance, you could easily end up doing nothing on the charge and completely relying on the characters in that and subsequent turns. (this is also why I put the stubborn helm on my archmage).

Some things the Dragon Princes as the bus would get you instead of the Helms:

BotWD can go on the unit. That protects it more than sitting on a character, and allows you to kit your BSB however you want. Either more killing or more surviving, totally up to you. At that point you're probably ok with your BSB in the front rank as well, since he's less vital to the survival of the bus.

You can add extra hitting power on your champion. This is actually a really big bonus. I know the debate on the star lance, but even if you can't put that on him, a Giant Blade is an excellent choice, giving you 3 S5 attacks on every round that he stays standing. Then you could always put the starlance and GW/Halberd on your BSB. This gives you far more ability in combat past the first round than helms offer.

The possibility to go without the BotWD at all. Or at least not on your bus. The dragon princes have a 2++ vs any flaming attack (basically an innate BotWD against metal magic, heavy cav's biggest threat), and a base 6++. It may be more economical to put some magic resistance in the unit to get to a 3++ or 4++ and then put the banner elsewhere. This would also free you up to put your main caster into a different unit, as you wouldn't need him in the bus to benefit from the Banner's protection from miscasts.

Detractors from using the Dragon Princes.

They're more expensive than helms and really hit just exactly the same. They're only slightly more durable (with the innate 6++). DPs benefit more from smaller units where they are getting the benefit of their extra base line attack.

You still end up with a core allowance that you have to spend on something, and Silver Helms/Archers are still the prime choices. So you may end up with a Helm Bus anyway, just unsupported by characters. And the big thing here is you likely won't have many or any points left for any of our elite infantry.
zerocool
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#10 Post by zerocool »

Congrats on the wins and performance! Especially in the last game, well played and even better description! It was like i actually was there.
I got really really angry on your opponent though especially when he "innocently" mixed up his items. Really really bad call.
Anyway fun read and congrats again. Which tournament was it ? I ask caus i don't see 2700 a lot.
lost user 1
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#11 Post by lost user 1 »

Just a small local tournament, believe there was around 50 players? Ish?

2700 pts is just an odd pt total, I don't know why they chose that (maybe there's some combinations that get eliminated/limited by that total???), oddly bracketed between two more common point totals, 2500 and 3000(or 2996 to avoid the grande army shenanigans, hello 8 bolt throwers).

As to the final battle. His reasoning was that he mixed up the two vampires, the BSB and the regular vampire, and accidentally swapped their kits. That's not actually the case though, as he actually took pieces of multiple kits and conglomerated them onto the characters in such a way that would give him the greatest advantage. He said he intended to have the night shroud opposite my prince, and forgot that it wasn't on his BSB.

So, as a good sport, after we replayed the combat, I showed him that even if he had swapped the places of the BSB and the other vampire (as he said he intended to do, so the other vampire with the nightshroud was in contact with my prince) he would still have lost. And, we played it out, and sure enough, he still lost (not quite as bad, in the straight redo he crumbled down to 1 wound left on his lord, in the "as he would have liked it" redo, he crumbled down to full health on his lord).

He THEN started mis-remembering details earlier in the game, like the overrun from the zombies into the bats, and saying that it never happened at all, and it was actually a spell from the chest that destroyed them, when they shouldn't have been targeted by the spell since a unit of zombies was a quarter of an inch closer.... I kind of laughed at that and said you can't remember what items your characters are using but you can remember the precise location of units earlier in the game to the tune of fractions of an inch??!?!!? Not to mention his scenario in no way accounted for why he wouldn't have charged in his own turn if those bats weren't blocking him thanks to being in combat with the phoenix.

There was more ridiculous stuff after that, and I just waved it off. Said thanks for the game, good luck at the next tournament, and moved on with life, lol.
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#12 Post by Jimmy »

Late to the party but thanks for the battle reports. Great reading and a fantastic result! =D>
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lost user 1
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#13 Post by lost user 1 »

So although I've never played this list before, its obviously a strong list, and in a comp'd environment, I'm not sure we can even field a harder list than this (maybe the Alarielle star??? Not sure how special characters are comp'd versus their generic counterparts)

My review of the various units and their performance:

Silverhelms - C+ - the knights themselves did next to nothing. The only combat that they meaningfully contributed to was against the Black Knight bus, where they managed to inflict 3 or 4 wounds on the charge. They did nothing against the dwarves, very little against the empire (maybe 1 wound on the inner circle knights), nothing against the dark elves, nothing against the first vampire counts player. Granted, I didn't always send them into combats that they would excel at, but those were the combats that I need the prince to be in. As far as buses go, they do the job fine, but I would never expect them to accomplish much on their own.

Archers - B - I really didn't expect 11 archers to accomplish much anyway. But, along with the mage, they basically won my 3rd game for me. They also punched above their weight in a lot of the games, clearing hounds/slayers etc. S3 shooting is never going to overly impress, but they did their job!

Reavers - B - got killed quickly a lot of the time, which is great, means that they rest of my army wasn't taking those wounds! Also performed great in the last game. Surprisingly I found them outshone by the shadow warriors.... But, for core points, these guys did well enough.

Phoenix Guard - A+ - Never died, killed everything they touched. I absolutely love this unit with the AP banner. They control a board section like nothing else on the table, and can stand up to pretty much anything. They also can operate completely independently, a true strength in the HE army. In all the tournaments that I've gone to, these guys are always the MVP. I would never consider WLs or SMs as superior. WLs are better at killing high toughness, high armour, but the lack of rerolls and durability on them just make them so much less reliable than the PG....

Shadow Warriors - A - honestly, these guys were amazing. At least part of that has to be that most of my opponents assumed I didn't have scouts. But also they were seldom prioritized as a kill target and worked as very efficient chaff when needed. They kill far more than there points in almost every game, and annihilated war machines with ease. Shame they don't see more use.

Frost Phoenix - A+ - Superstars. Hold people up, kill them, whatever you want. Survived multiple gunlines and cannons. Can't say enough good things about them, except when their thunderstomp fluffs (or they don't get one) their damage goes way south.

Prince - A - other than against the dwarves, where he badly fluffed against the dwarf lord, he killed everything he needed to. But, without flaming attacks, he couldn't dent anything with regen. Also, he wasn't as survivable as he could have been against mundane attacks. He never got killed (only run down), but, that was a potential weakness.

Noble BSB - C - definitely the wrong build on him. The extra S6 attacks were nice, but he was super vulnerable and died almost every game. Need a new set up.

Mage (LVL 2) - B - really just a scroll caddy, and he rarely was able to boost the PG ward and even when he had spells that could matter, I usually needed the life magic more. He did nuke Balthasar, which was fun. Good enough for what he was there for.

Archmage (LVL 4) - B - bad luck on the dice aside, he was as powerful as you'd expect him to be and generally kept everyone alive when he needed to. Might consider High Magic on him instead of life, as that would also aid in the survivability of the fighting characters in his unit.
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Charles Rampant
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#14 Post by Charles Rampant »

mcmulligan wrote:Some things the Dragon Princes as the bus would get you instead of the Helms:

BotWD can go on the unit. That protects it more than sitting on a character, and allows you to kit your BSB however you want. Either more killing or more surviving, totally up to you. At that point you're probably ok with your BSB in the front rank as well, since he's less vital to the survival of the bus.

You can add extra hitting power on your champion. This is actually a really big bonus. I know the debate on the star lance, but even if you can't put that on him, a Giant Blade is an excellent choice, giving you 3 S5 attacks on every round that he stays standing. Then you could always put the starlance and GW/Halberd on your BSB. This gives you far more ability in combat past the first round than helms offer.

The possibility to go without the BotWD at all. Or at least not on your bus. The dragon princes have a 2++ vs any flaming attack (basically an innate BotWD against metal magic, heavy cav's biggest threat), and a base 6++. It may be more economical to put some magic resistance in the unit to get to a 3++ or 4++ and then put the banner elsewhere. This would also free you up to put your main caster into a different unit, as you wouldn't need him in the bus to benefit from the Banner's protection from miscasts.

Detractors from using the Dragon Princes.

They're more expensive than helms and really hit just exactly the same. They're only slightly more durable (with the innate 6++). DPs benefit more from smaller units where they are getting the benefit of their extra base line attack.

You still end up with a core allowance that you have to spend on something, and Silver Helms/Archers are still the prime choices. So you may end up with a Helm Bus anyway, just unsupported by characters. And the big thing here is you likely won't have many or any points left for any of our elite infantry.
Thanks for your thoughts.

I think that one option you overlooked is the potential to use High magic to bump that 6++ down to a 4++ relatively easily, giving the unit a remarkable degree of defence. Also the fact that you get the 6++ at all is really nice, as it gives you some protection against dodgy dice raining 1s. You are right to note the benefit of the unit standard bearer, and I think that it gives you two extra options: 1) give the unit the standard, letting you tool up the BSB for defence; 2) take a second banner (Razor or Ranger [the re--roll charge distance one] come to mind). More stuff is always more fun! The same mind-games option applies as always, to boot: not taking the banner at all, and letting your opponent assume its existence, changing his gameplay dramatically for exactly 0 points.

You are right on the fact that Special is more precious than Core. However, I think that the Princes are noticeably superior - you do, after all, get WS5, an extra 3 attacks from the front rank (assuming two characters sitting there, more if they are already dead) and the option for magical weapons on the champion, as you noted, all on top of the extra defence. Maybe the fact that my Core choices lean away from Silver Helms has something to do with it. But for that bus, the actual Dragon Princes are only about a quarter of the total cost, suggesting that there is only so far you are going to get by downgrading to Silver Helms.

Plus they look a lot nicer, which is hard to quantify but certainly important.

Thanks again for the reports - good to see some actual cavbus tactics in play. I'm currently stuck at the 1k level with my High Elves, and even while using my 5-man Dragon Prince unit the temptation to just charge headlong into enemy units is really strong...
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John Rainbow
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#15 Post by John Rainbow »

Great reports mcmulligan. I really enjoyed reading these over my lunch break just now. Thanks for posting them in such detail and with diagrams - I know it takes a long time to do but it really makes them a much better read!

Secondly, congratulations on the fabulous result! A good win against some tough armies so well done.

As to your list and the suggestions you/others have been talking about...

I agree that your Prince and BSB kit may need some work here. The GW is not the best choice here as the BSB is worth so much in terms of survivability for the unit with BotWD and needs all the help he can get. I would suggest a simple lance or even a hand weapon only if the points aren't there for the lance. With the Prince I think the cloak is an odd choice. I can see the argument for fear but really it shouldn't affect you in most games as you statistically will very rarely fail a Ld10 rerollable. The Ironcurse Icon or Po.Fools could be a better choice here maybe?

As for the mages, I really struggle to see past Heavens as a support lore at the moment. Putting the lvl2 in the PG is problematic as he will likely get killed (I can see you want that 3++) but with him in the archers and casting Iceshard Blizzard I've found even a level 1 to be very effective. I also find that Soul Quench is somewhat lacking as a MM. purely in terms of range and the fact that often times, in a unit like PG the mage won't be able to cast it as he'll be in CC anyway. Fire can be another good choice and might be worth a look here purely for chaff-clearing purposes as you don't have the usual contingent of RBTs to do this for you and some more ranged power could help you a lot. I'm also unsure if Life is the best lore for the lvl.4. It certainly isn't bad but would something else work better? I'm not sure on this one at the moment. My last point on characters would be the stubborn crown. Is it really worth it? I don't think you should be planning to lose combats with a unit like the SH bus and as such I think you should free those points up for something else.

I think you are right in the thinking you have about your core setup at the moment and I wouldn't really change it tbh. I don't think a big bus of Dragon Princes is the answer - I've tried it and it does work but is not very subtle and only gives you one real combat threat that is easily nullified by some armies. You are much better off IMHO with the 2 combat units of both SHs and PG. I think a switch to DPs would also require you to change a few other things about the list to get you the board control you need when you only have a single combat unit. I think you would need some RBTs and a lot more shooting and chaff if such an approach was used. This is all just to get that single unit into the fights it wants to be in and to stop it getting redirected out of the game. And as you say, I never find the actual SH to be worth much other than character delivery and Dragon Princes aren't a great deal better when so many of them get stuck in the back ranks with a single attack anyway.

Good luck moving forward with this and I look forward to seeing more reports!
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#16 Post by John Rainbow »

Also, sorry I missed this for so long! I really did enjoy reading it today though when I finally got some time over lunch to get back on Ulthuan.
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#17 Post by lost user 1 »

Charles Rampant wrote:
mcmulligan wrote:Some things the Dragon Princes as the bus would get you instead of the Helms:

BotWD can go on the unit. That protects it more than sitting on a character, and allows you to kit your BSB however you want. Either more killing or more surviving, totally up to you. At that point you're probably ok with your BSB in the front rank as well, since he's less vital to the survival of the bus.

You can add extra hitting power on your champion. This is actually a really big bonus. I know the debate on the star lance, but even if you can't put that on him, a Giant Blade is an excellent choice, giving you 3 S5 attacks on every round that he stays standing. Then you could always put the starlance and GW/Halberd on your BSB. This gives you far more ability in combat past the first round than helms offer.

The possibility to go without the BotWD at all. Or at least not on your bus. The dragon princes have a 2++ vs any flaming attack (basically an innate BotWD against metal magic, heavy cav's biggest threat), and a base 6++. It may be more economical to put some magic resistance in the unit to get to a 3++ or 4++ and then put the banner elsewhere. This would also free you up to put your main caster into a different unit, as you wouldn't need him in the bus to benefit from the Banner's protection from miscasts.

Detractors from using the Dragon Princes.

They're more expensive than helms and really hit just exactly the same. They're only slightly more durable (with the innate 6++). DPs benefit more from smaller units where they are getting the benefit of their extra base line attack.

You still end up with a core allowance that you have to spend on something, and Silver Helms/Archers are still the prime choices. So you may end up with a Helm Bus anyway, just unsupported by characters. And the big thing here is you likely won't have many or any points left for any of our elite infantry.
Thanks for your thoughts.

I think that one option you overlooked is the potential to use High magic to bump that 6++ down to a 4++ relatively easily, giving the unit a remarkable degree of defence. Also the fact that you get the 6++ at all is really nice, as it gives you some protection against dodgy dice raining 1s. You are right to note the benefit of the unit standard bearer, and I think that it gives you two extra options: 1) give the unit the standard, letting you tool up the BSB for defence; 2) take a second banner (Razor or Ranger [the re--roll charge distance one] come to mind). More stuff is always more fun! The same mind-games option applies as always, to boot: not taking the banner at all, and letting your opponent assume its existence, changing his gameplay dramatically for exactly 0 points.

You are right on the fact that Special is more precious than Core. However, I think that the Princes are noticeably superior - you do, after all, get WS5, an extra 3 attacks from the front rank (assuming two characters sitting there, more if they are already dead) and the option for magical weapons on the champion, as you noted, all on top of the extra defence. Maybe the fact that my Core choices lean away from Silver Helms has something to do with it. But for that bus, the actual Dragon Princes are only about a quarter of the total cost, suggesting that there is only so far you are going to get by downgrading to Silver Helms.

Plus they look a lot nicer, which is hard to quantify but certainly important.

Thanks again for the reports - good to see some actual cavbus tactics in play. I'm currently stuck at the 1k level with my High Elves, and even while using my 5-man Dragon Prince unit the temptation to just charge headlong into enemy units is really strong...
Good thoughts, and we're definitely on the same page. There's no denying that Dragon Princes create a more powerful bus than the Silverhelms do. For me, its more of an opportunity cost situation. If I use the Dragon Princes, I do get a more powerful bus, but I lose on the opportunity to use our excellent special infantry (those beautiful wonderful amazing Phoenix Guard, and I suppose WLs and SMs too lol) and would instead have to look to Seaguard or Spearmen if I wanted a second combat block. For me, the difference in combat effectiveness between Dragon Princes and Silverhelms is far less than the difference between Spearmen and any of the special infantry choices.


That being said, I have made a double cav bus list that I would love to try out. Tyrion anchors a unit of helms with a prince and noble anchoring dragon princes, both supported by a lvl 2 high mage. Not sure how competitive it would be, but it sure would be fun.
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#18 Post by lost user 1 »

John Rainbow wrote:Great reports mcmulligan. I really enjoyed reading these over my lunch break just now. Thanks for posting them in such detail and with diagrams - I know it takes a long time to do but it really makes them a much better read!

Secondly, congratulations on the fabulous result! A good win against some tough armies so well done.

As to your list and the suggestions you/others have been talking about...

I agree that your Prince and BSB kit may need some work here. The GW is not the best choice here as the BSB is worth so much in terms of survivability for the unit with BotWD and needs all the help he can get. I would suggest a simple lance or even a hand weapon only if the points aren't there for the lance. With the Prince I think the cloak is an odd choice. I can see the argument for fear but really it shouldn't affect you in most games as you statistically will very rarely fail a Ld10 rerollable. The Ironcurse Icon or Po.Fools could be a better choice here maybe?

As for the mages, I really struggle to see past Heavens as a support lore at the moment. Putting the lvl2 in the PG is problematic as he will likely get killed (I can see you want that 3++) but with him in the archers and casting Iceshard Blizzard I've found even a level 1 to be very effective. I also find that Soul Quench is somewhat lacking as a MM. purely in terms of range and the fact that often times, in a unit like PG the mage won't be able to cast it as he'll be in CC anyway. Fire can be another good choice and might be worth a look here purely for chaff-clearing purposes as you don't have the usual contingent of RBTs to do this for you and some more ranged power could help you a lot. I'm also unsure if Life is the best lore for the lvl.4. It certainly isn't bad but would something else work better? I'm not sure on this one at the moment. My last point on characters would be the stubborn crown. Is it really worth it? I don't think you should be planning to lose combats with a unit like the SH bus and as such I think you should free those points up for something else.

I think you are right in the thinking you have about your core setup at the moment and I wouldn't really change it tbh. I don't think a big bus of Dragon Princes is the answer - I've tried it and it does work but is not very subtle and only gives you one real combat threat that is easily nullified by some armies. You are much better off IMHO with the 2 combat units of both SHs and PG. I think a switch to DPs would also require you to change a few other things about the list to get you the board control you need when you only have a single combat unit. I think you would need some RBTs and a lot more shooting and chaff if such an approach was used. This is all just to get that single unit into the fights it wants to be in and to stop it getting redirected out of the game. And as you say, I never find the actual SH to be worth much other than character delivery and Dragon Princes aren't a great deal better when so many of them get stuck in the back ranks with a single attack anyway.

Good luck moving forward with this and I look forward to seeing more reports!
Thanks!

You're absolutely right about the cloak, its really only there as a fluffy item. Why I actually took it was a philosophy of redundancy. Same with the crown. Since this was a list I was completely unfamiliar with, I wanted to be as safe as possible. Keeping high leadership and reducing the amount of leadership tests were a good way to protect that unit (as was the choice of lore of life, as it was already a durable bus, but when needed toughness, regen, or regrowing lost models were all options).

Going forward, with a better understanding of what combats that bus will be capable in, here's some changes I would make:

Prince, pretty much the same kit, but I would consider either the potion of foolhardiness (ItP for a turn and an extra attack on the charge is pretty decent) or possibly the iron curse icon. I rarely find the iron curse icon to be worth it (I suck at rolling 6s apparently, ask my poor skinks how well their poison works), and would be more likely to save the 10 points and spend it elsewhere.

BSB, absolutely shield and lance. BUT, if I do manage to get him into a second rank, then I would consider the GW still. That's only really an option at higher point levels, so most of the time, sticking with a solid 2+ with a bit of punch in the first round will be my go-to.

Archmage, I'm split between High Magic and Shadow. High Magic has some adequate damage spells, Flames being a great control spell to compliment its damage potential and Soul Quench has good output for casting cost (albeit an 18" range). Really this choice would be about boosting the ward save of the unit (increasing the latent 6++ on the prince and the noble thanks to dragon armour) while threatening the opponent's magic phase. Drain Magic and Flames both have great psychological effects on your opponent and can be used to great advantage in mitigating the damage done by their magic phase. Shadow is obvious really. All the sudden those silverhelms hit harder, the PG REALLY tear things apart, and I even have an answer against high toughness high armour units in pit of shades.

Mage, fire would be another good choice, since a nice low casting on fireball is exactly why I had soul quench on him. Also the chance of getting flaming sword would help with the combat potential of both my blocks and regen. Beasts could be decent (only drawback is high casting values of the best spells). And of course metal for the sig.
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#19 Post by lost user 1 »

John Rainbow wrote:Also, sorry I missed this for so long! I really did enjoy reading it today though when I finally got some time over lunch to get back on Ulthuan.

It was a pleasure to share it!

Have another tournament coming in 2 weeks, another 50+ fantasy players, 2996 points and lots of fun scenarios.

Taking COMPLETELY different lists to that one (one 2996 "attacker" list and a 2250 "defender" list). Going to be a lot of fun and I'll be sure to post the reports again.
Auere
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Re: 2700 pt Cav Bus at 2 day Tournament

#20 Post by Auere »

These reports are awesome and so well made. Thanks alot.
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